9mm Bullet Selection

Nathan · March 24, 2024, 07:38 PM

For all you 9mm aficionados….How are you selecting your CCW bullet weight, bullet, etc?

115’s open up but really too fast which limits penetration and can split the bullet apart

147’s are slow enough that many open weakly.

124’s can be just right, but not always.

How else do you choose?

Jim Watson · March 24, 2024, 10:54 PM

I use 9bp 115 like M. Ayoob said to back in the 20th.
There are faster loads and more expansive bullets, but I am confident these will shoot reliably and accurately.

Nathan · March 25, 2024, 06:28 AM

I’m sorry. What is a “9bp?” What is “the 20th?”

For clarity, I ask this question because standard JHP’s in 115gr seem to turn themselves in gel and start to fall apart. This limits expansion in general. 147gr JHP’s look pretty good at 5” velocities, but in 3-3.5” velocities, expansion is very limited, like 1 in 5 do not expand in gel.

I choose 124’s. I am pretty selective on those. …..using Federal HST’s now at low pressure.

As I look it all over again, maybe I’m being a bit picky, but I just wonder what other folks do..

jmr40 · March 25, 2024, 07:36 AM

I've always trusted a 124 gr HP at around 1200-1250 fps. That's what NATO specs call for with a 124 gr FMJ. And that's within 50 fps of the real-world speeds 357 mag loads from the 1980's were getting when 357 mag was considered the best option for cops to carry. It's a proven combo.

The 115 gr loads have traditionally been known to over expand and give poor penetration. I suppose there are some newer bullets in that weight range that do better, but 124's have been doing it for a long time and that is what I trust.

I have seen some 147 gr data that looks good to me. Initially 147 gr bullets at around 1000 fps did not expand reliably and that weight earned a poor reputation. But I have seen data showing newer 147 gr HP bullets expanding reliably. At one time the FBI chose that combo based on their testing. Not sure what they are using now.

IMO shot placement and penetration are the 2 most important considerations. If the bullets expand a lot that is a plus, but I'd not give up penetration to get more expansion. I want a bullet that will penetrate heavy winter clothes and light barriers as well.

Jim Watson · March 25, 2024, 08:15 AM

Quote:

I’m sorry. What is a “9bp?” What is “the 20th?”

https://d3gxe0jmvtuxbc.cloudfront.ne...Grain-2590.jpg

Sorry, 9BP is the Federal conventional 115 grain hollowpoint I settled on in the 20th century.

No doubt I could go to 124 HST or Gold Dot and be a bit better armed, but that would require shooting a lot of it to consider it reliable in my guns.

74A95 · March 25, 2024, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

I've always trusted a 124 gr HP at around 1200-1250 fps. That's what NATO specs call for with a 124 gr FMJ. And that's within 50 fps of the real-world speeds 357 mag loads from the 1980's were getting when 357 mag was considered the best option for cops to carry. It's a proven combo.

357 Mag 125 grain loads produced 1450 fps from a 4" barrel.

74A95 · March 25, 2024, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

https://d3gxe0jmvtuxbc.cloudfront.ne...Grain-2590.jpg

Sorry, 9BP is the Federal conventional 115 grain hollowpoint I settled on in the 20th century.

What? Not the 9bple +P+?

Jim Watson · March 25, 2024, 09:05 AM

No, although I was thinking of getting XM9001 +P the next time I bought. Same bullet as 9BP and 9 BPLE.

44caliberkid · March 25, 2024, 09:32 AM

I use 115’s and 124’s. Carried 124 grain Golden Saber on duty. I reload mostly XTP and Gold Dot. I had a pet load back in the 80’s - 90’s , 124 gr. JHP over Blue Dot powder, produced just over 1300 fps (and a basketball sized fireball).

**44 AMP** · March 25, 2024, 02:11 PM

Just as a point of reference, the original 9mm Parabellum load was a 124gr at 1050fps from a 4" barrel. Shortly before WWI, the standard load was changed
to a 115gr at 1150 from a 4" barrel.

Quote:

115’s open up but really too fast which limits penetration and can split the bullet apart

If penetration is inadequate and the bullet splits apart, you're buying the wrong stuff.

Quote:

147’s are slow enough that many open weakly.

The 147 loads were designed for use in SMGs, primarily suppressed ones, where barrel lengths are significantly longer than duty class handguns.

Quote:

124’s can be just right, but not always.

Nothing is always "just right" for every possible situation.

badge851 · March 25, 2024, 05:28 PM

I choose what is the most accurate in my gun(s). For example, my 2011 first-generation Ruger® LC9 with its short barrel (3.12") is hands-down most accurate with 147gr ammunition. Consequently, my carry load is Winchester® Defender® 147gr BJHP #S9MMPDB1 standard pressure.

My circa 2021 Taurus® G3C with its 3.2" barrel shoots 115, 124, & 147gr equally well but is most accurate with 124gr ammo. I load it with Federal® Personal Defense® 124gr Punch™ JHP #PD9P1 standard pressure.

My EDC loads are ALWAYS what the gun(s) have shown me are the most accurate.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 25, 2024, 08:40 PM

I have a fairly good e-friend who is a retired police chief and LEO firearms trainer, who survived two gunfights before his retirement. He advocates 147-grain for 9mm. I defer to his experience and expertise.

disseminator · March 25, 2024, 09:56 PM

I have tried most of the different bullets in the main handgun calibers and it's my opinion that the 147+p HST is the very best you can get. The standard pressure is just as good. The 147 Gold Dot is right up there as well. I prefer subsonic ammo for close in defensive use.

**44 AMP** · March 26, 2024, 02:30 PM

Quote:

I defer to his experience and expertise.

Obviously, it worked for him.

I know of a SE Asia vet, who considered the .45 and the 9mm the same, based on his experiences. He had to defend himself with a .45 one time, and with a 9mm another time. Based on his results they worked the same.

"I shot him twice, he fell down. Both times."

In my personal world, I don't worry about 9mm bullet performance, as the 9mm is not my defensive cartridge of choice. I have or have had Lugers, (P.08s), P.38, Broomhandle Mauser, and in those I generally shoot FMJ, either 115 or 124gr, NO +P, EVER, and have never tried any147s.

Use what ever works best for you.

Webleymkv · March 26, 2024, 02:53 PM

I've carried several different brands and weights of 9mm JHP over the years including Cor-Bon 125 gr +P JHP, Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ T-Series, Federal Punch 124 gr JHP, and Federal 147 gr HST. For the past several years, however, I've favored the Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +P+ loading as I was able to purchase a decent quantity of it at a very good price ($16/50 round box) some years ago. The nose profile of this particular bullets seems to feed very reliably in all my 9mm handguns, the accuracy is more than acceptable, and the various police agencies that used it over the years all seemed quite satisfied with its performance.

Honestly, I don't really worry about it too much as 9mm is no longer one of the calibers I regularly carry or depend on for home defense, but I like to keep at least some defensive ammo around for any caliber I own (assuming defensive ammo is available in said caliber).

FITASC · March 26, 2024, 07:49 PM

I practice and prefer 124s; Speer Lawman TMJ for practice and Speer Gold Dots for serious work
147's were made for subguns originally; 115s were the norm, but I prefer the extra weight

wild cat mccane · March 27, 2024, 10:14 AM

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx

At under 900fps, the 150gr HST "Micro" round performed better than all other options for expansion+penetration on Lucky Gunner. Next up was a 147gr.

I thought the +P HST 147gr was very impressive. Federal discontinued it though.

No 115gr passed Doc Roberts "best defense" test but the all copper barnes bullet.

You're pretty much good to go in the "good" current rounds but the Gold Dot 115gr options. Old stuff like Golden Saber performs great. But we knew it would because it does good in 380 too.

I don't like the XTP load because it's designed to limit expansion which promotes too much penetration. The pedals on XTP aren't designed to massive expanding like HST/Gold Dot. As Hornady states themselves on the XTP website.

Federal Punch was supposed to be a cheaper and less performance than HST. HST has always been cheaper. So Punch makes no sense to me in the current Federal line up. I mean, sense to them because they said it was cheaper and they charge more, no sense to the consumer buying it.

9BPLE is terrible stuff in that it's not skived, not bonded, the bad weight, high pressure. It's the one I'd stay away from on purpose knowing that practically anything would give better results.

seanc · March 27, 2024, 02:58 PM

124gr HST. If I could get some 147gr HST, I'd get some too.

Not based on any historic origin or friend of a friend. Based on this testing:
https://youtu.be/xc5n_JsY3aw

Recycled bullet · March 27, 2024, 04:52 PM

I'm quite the fan of 9 mm and the Improvement made through the use of better bullets. My Springfield Armory Hellcat Pro is like a 15 shot 38 Special if you compare the ballistics with 124 Grain bullets. It's much easier to carry a flat 9 mm handgun inside your wristband all day then a big old revolver that only has six shots.

I also like 124 or 125 grain bullets for the most part in 9mm because that is where the iron sights on my handguns are zeroed at 25 and 50 yards.

Koda94 · March 27, 2024, 10:28 PM

I just go by the Luckygunner gel test report. If it penetrates within the 12-18 inches standard and the photo on the right shows they all expanded and held together, I try to buy those.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm

bamaranger · March 28, 2024, 01:50 AM

When my agency went to semi pistols, initially everybody (well nearly) got a SIG P228 with a bunch of 124 gr NATO ball for training and transition, and 147 gr JHP for duty. The duty load may have been +P, perhaps even +P+, I just do not recall. What I do recall is that from the shorter barrel of the P228, the 147 gr bullets (of the day) were not particularly impressive in what shooting we did of dispatching wildlife unsavable from collisions with motor vehicles , in my world, whitetails. The story circulating was that the FBI was using that load in MP5's with longer barrels and it was just not cutting it from our abbreviated SIGS. I am not certain, but I do not think the USNPS had a gunfight with the 9mm 147 load.

The FBI Miami shootout with 9mm was fresh on everybody's mind. Poor bullet performance was one factor in the calamity. Prior that, the duty load had been .357/125 and THAT load was impressive. Most all the old hands believed we had taken a step backward. I was one of them. Policy did not prohibit using non-issue ammo, stipulating US manufacture and bullets from 115-147 gr. I promptly acquired a couple of boxes of 115gr 9BP as it was recommended by the sages of the day as noted by others. Shortly thereafter Rangers were authorized a 3 caliber choice (9mm/.40/.45) as long as chambered in the approved SIG pistols. I promptly went P220/.45acp, but a goodly number of P228's and P226's remained on duty. But I digress......

These days, though still a .45 acp guy at heart, I do not feel undergunned with a G17/9mm and 124 gr HST +P

**44 AMP** · March 28, 2024, 02:28 PM

Quote:

The FBI Miami shootout with 9mm was fresh on everybody's mind. Poor bullet performance was one factor in the calamity.

Poor bullet performance was what got the official blame, but that was bureaucratic CYA. The 9mm bullet that "failed" did everything the FBI required it to do when they bought it. It met or passed every standard they had.

IT just wasn't quite enough to instantly shut down the bad guy in that real world situation. This has been discussed and analyzed at length by lots of people, including many with no personal or professional stake in the matter.

And like all such things, inaccurate conclusions abound.

My take is that the bullet did not fail. The FBI did.

Do note that since then, the FBI has changed their standards....

Koda94 · March 28, 2024, 02:31 PM

I thought I read it was poor marksmanship ( training)...

rc · March 29, 2024, 04:03 AM

I think the 124 grain HP weight is the best weight for 9mm but 115 grain loads are OK too. I am not a big fan of the slow 9mm loads of 147 grains but they are still about as effective as the 38 special. In order to open up, hollow points need speed. In order to penetrate, bullets need weight. 124 is the Goldie lox weight for 9mm.

March 24, 2024, 07:38 PM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	9mm Bullet Selection For all you 9mm aficionados….How are you selecting your CCW bullet weight, bullet, etc? 115’s open up but really too fast which limits penetration and can split the bullet apart 147’s are slow enough that many open weakly. 124’s can be just right, but not always. How else do you choose?

March 25, 2024, 06:28 AM	#3
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	I’m sorry. What is a “9bp?” What is “the 20th?” For clarity, I ask this question because standard JHP’s in 115gr seem to turn themselves in gel and start to fall apart. This limits expansion in general. 147gr JHP’s look pretty good at 5” velocities, but in 3-3.5” velocities, expansion is very limited, like 1 in 5 do not expand in gel. I choose 124’s. I am pretty selective on those. …..using Federal HST’s now at low pressure. As I look it all over again, maybe I’m being a bit picky, but I just wonder what other folks do.. Last edited by Nathan; March 25, 2024 at 06:36 AM.

March 25, 2024, 07:36 AM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,810	I've always trusted a 124 gr HP at around 1200-1250 fps. That's what NATO specs call for with a 124 gr FMJ. And that's within 50 fps of the real-world speeds 357 mag loads from the 1980's were getting when 357 mag was considered the best option for cops to carry. It's a proven combo. The 115 gr loads have traditionally been known to over expand and give poor penetration. I suppose there are some newer bullets in that weight range that do better, but 124's have been doing it for a long time and that is what I trust. I have seen some 147 gr data that looks good to me. Initially 147 gr bullets at around 1000 fps did not expand reliably and that weight earned a poor reputation. But I have seen data showing newer 147 gr HP bullets expanding reliably. At one time the FBI chose that combo based on their testing. Not sure what they are using now. IMO shot placement and penetration are the 2 most important considerations. If the bullets expand a lot that is a plus, but I'd not give up penetration to get more expansion. I want a bullet that will penetrate heavy winter clothes and light barriers as well. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

March 25, 2024, 05:28 PM	#11
badge851 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2005 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 326	I choose what is the most accurate in my gun(s). For example, my 2011 first-generation Ruger® LC9 with its short barrel (3.12") is hands-down most accurate with 147gr ammunition. Consequently, my carry load is Winchester® Defender® 147gr BJHP #S9MMPDB1 standard pressure. My circa 2021 Taurus® G3C with its 3.2" barrel shoots 115, 124, & 147gr equally well but is most accurate with 124gr ammo. I load it with Federal® Personal Defense® 124gr Punch™ JHP #PD9P1 standard pressure. My EDC loads are ALWAYS what the gun(s) have shown me are the most accurate. __________________ Only two defining forces have ever died for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, & Marine. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

March 25, 2024, 08:40 PM	#12
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,477	I have a fairly good e-friend who is a retired police chief and LEO firearms trainer, who survived two gunfights before his retirement. He advocates 147-grain for 9mm. I defer to his experience and expertise. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

March 24, 2024, 10:54 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	I use 9bp 115 like M. Ayoob said to back in the 20th. There are faster loads and more expansive bullets, but I am confident these will shoot reliably and accurately.

March 25, 2024, 09:05 AM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	No, although I was thinking of getting XM9001 +P the next time I bought. Same bullet as 9BP and 9 BPLE.

March 25, 2024, 09:32 AM	#9
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,104	I use 115’s and 124’s. Carried 124 grain Golden Saber on duty. I reload mostly XTP and Gold Dot. I had a pet load back in the 80’s - 90’s , 124 gr. JHP over Blue Dot powder, produced just over 1300 fps (and a basketball sized fireball).

March 25, 2024, 09:56 PM	#13
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 960	I have tried most of the different bullets in the main handgun calibers and it's my opinion that the 147+p HST is the very best you can get. The standard pressure is just as good. The 147 Gold Dot is right up there as well. I prefer subsonic ammo for close in defensive use.

March 26, 2024, 02:53 PM	#15
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	I've carried several different brands and weights of 9mm JHP over the years including Cor-Bon 125 gr +P JHP, Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ T-Series, Federal Punch 124 gr JHP, and Federal 147 gr HST. For the past several years, however, I've favored the Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +P+ loading as I was able to purchase a decent quantity of it at a very good price ($16/50 round box) some years ago. The nose profile of this particular bullets seems to feed very reliably in all my 9mm handguns, the accuracy is more than acceptable, and the various police agencies that used it over the years all seemed quite satisfied with its performance. Honestly, I don't really worry about it too much as 9mm is no longer one of the calibers I regularly carry or depend on for home defense, but I like to keep at least some defensive ammo around for any caliber I own (assuming defensive ammo is available in said caliber).

March 26, 2024, 07:49 PM	#16
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	I practice and prefer 124s; Speer Lawman TMJ for practice and Speer Gold Dots for serious work 147's were made for subguns originally; 115s were the norm, but I prefer the extra weight __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

March 27, 2024, 10:14 AM	#17
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx At under 900fps, the 150gr HST "Micro" round performed better than all other options for expansion+penetration on Lucky Gunner. Next up was a 147gr. I thought the +P HST 147gr was very impressive. Federal discontinued it though. No 115gr passed Doc Roberts "best defense" test but the all copper barnes bullet. You're pretty much good to go in the "good" current rounds but the Gold Dot 115gr options. Old stuff like Golden Saber performs great. But we knew it would because it does good in 380 too. I don't like the XTP load because it's designed to limit expansion which promotes too much penetration. The pedals on XTP aren't designed to massive expanding like HST/Gold Dot. As Hornady states themselves on the XTP website. Federal Punch was supposed to be a cheaper and less performance than HST. HST has always been cheaper. So Punch makes no sense to me in the current Federal line up. I mean, sense to them because they said it was cheaper and they charge more, no sense to the consumer buying it. 9BPLE is terrible stuff in that it's not skived, not bonded, the bad weight, high pressure. It's the one I'd stay away from on purpose knowing that practically anything would give better results. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM. Last edited by wild cat mccane; March 27, 2024 at 10:24 AM.

March 27, 2024, 02:58 PM	#18
seanc Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1998 Posts: 590	124gr HST. If I could get some 147gr HST, I'd get some too. Not based on any historic origin or friend of a friend. Based on this testing: https://youtu.be/xc5n_JsY3aw

March 27, 2024, 04:52 PM	#19
Recycled bullet Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2022 Posts: 342	I'm quite the fan of 9 mm and the Improvement made through the use of better bullets. My Springfield Armory Hellcat Pro is like a 15 shot 38 Special if you compare the ballistics with 124 Grain bullets. It's much easier to carry a flat 9 mm handgun inside your wristband all day then a big old revolver that only has six shots. I also like 124 or 125 grain bullets for the most part in 9mm because that is where the iron sights on my handguns are zeroed at 25 and 50 yards.

March 27, 2024, 10:28 PM	#20
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	I just go by the Luckygunner gel test report. If it penetrates within the 12-18 inches standard and the photo on the right shows they all expanded and held together, I try to buy those. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

March 28, 2024, 01:50 AM	#21
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,317	9mm When my agency went to semi pistols, initially everybody (well nearly) got a SIG P228 with a bunch of 124 gr NATO ball for training and transition, and 147 gr JHP for duty. The duty load may have been +P, perhaps even +P+, I just do not recall. What I do recall is that from the shorter barrel of the P228, the 147 gr bullets (of the day) were not particularly impressive in what shooting we did of dispatching wildlife unsavable from collisions with motor vehicles , in my world, whitetails. The story circulating was that the FBI was using that load in MP5's with longer barrels and it was just not cutting it from our abbreviated SIGS. I am not certain, but I do not think the USNPS had a gunfight with the 9mm 147 load. The FBI Miami shootout with 9mm was fresh on everybody's mind. Poor bullet performance was one factor in the calamity. Prior that, the duty load had been .357/125 and THAT load was impressive. Most all the old hands believed we had taken a step backward. I was one of them. Policy did not prohibit using non-issue ammo, stipulating US manufacture and bullets from 115-147 gr. I promptly acquired a couple of boxes of 115gr 9BP as it was recommended by the sages of the day as noted by others. Shortly thereafter Rangers were authorized a 3 caliber choice (9mm/.40/.45) as long as chambered in the approved SIG pistols. I promptly went P220/.45acp, but a goodly number of P228's and P226's remained on duty. But I digress...... These days, though still a .45 acp guy at heart, I do not feel undergunned with a G17/9mm and 124 gr HST +P

March 28, 2024, 02:31 PM	#23
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	I thought I read it was poor marksmanship ( training)... __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

March 29, 2024, 04:03 AM	#24
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	I think the 124 grain HP weight is the best weight for 9mm but 115 grain loads are OK too. I am not a big fan of the slow 9mm loads of 147 grains but they are still about as effective as the 38 special. In order to open up, hollow points need speed. In order to penetrate, bullets need weight. 124 is the Goldie lox weight for 9mm.