Alternative to drop tube. Question at the end of the post.

[Doc Hoy]

I load almost exclusively black powder cartridges using a Lee turret press and a Hornady Lock n Load powder measure. Note that I did not say, "drop tube".

I am not a competition shooter, never shoot on a commercial or public range, and the bullets I load and the arms that I use frequently outshoot my eyes.

Since I have never used a drop tube, relying only on bullet induced compression, I may be missing something in not naturally compressing my loads.

Moving to a drop tube, now, would require major modifications to my loading station, or very substantial changes in my loading process (with associated additional time).

Some of you have witnessed over the last 15 years, that I am not afraid to re-invent the world to meet my needs.

You also know that I am generally the last shooter in the entire western hemisphere to figure things out (because I always shoot alone).

So I am at real danger of someone saying, "Get with it, Doc!" as I ask this question: Could vibration of the full case perform essentially the same function as the drop tube?

[ocharry]

why yes...yes it could

i have always used a 40" drop tube and then a compression tool that i made from a grade 8, 7/8-14 bolt with lock collar turned on the end to fit the case.... has worked well for me

my drop tube is 1/4 or 5/16 copper tubing...(i would have to measure it) with a brass funnel i made, solderd to the top of it...has worked well for many years....i have it mounted to my loading bench... at one corner by a leg...with a little shelf i made from a piece of 2x2 screwed to the leg for the case to sit on when pouring powder...then a card wad goes in and it gets compressed

i dont size my cases and i finger seat the bullets.....well for the target guns anyway....for hunting loads they get a light size and maybe a crimp kiss..lol...just depends on what the gun likes

YMMV and my .02

ocharry

[Doc Hoy]

I am relatively certain I can create the vibration. I have search vibrating motors on the internet and all are either too small or too big. (Concrete vibrator...Using that, I can imagine the loading bench walking out the back door ... ) Still in the planning stages.

[ocharry]

doc....a drop tube is pretty simple and easy to make...and they work really well...and lol...it would prolly be way cheaper than a vibrator set up!!!

but hey you got to do you lol

i dont think i would want to chase the bench around the room...lmao...you funny....lol

ocharry

[bobn]

just a heads up> most black powder measures contain no plastic, all metal. static electricity. it is bad in the winter here. not so much in summer, not sure where you live....

[Doc Hoy]

One of the benefits of moving to southwest FL is absolutely zero static buildup. A little disappointing that I can't shuffle my feet on the carpet and shock the cat, so we don't have carpets or a cat.

Will continue to use the loading arrangements that I have but with a simple addition of a vibrating motor to the press. DC motor for eight bucks. The DC motor will permit variable speed to tune the vibrations.

Have ordered the parts shown in photos. Total about 15 bucks. Have a 12 volt power supply to drive it.

Still in the planning phase.

[nhyrum]

The biggest benefit I see for a drop tube is for very full cases of larger stick powders. I've never loaded bp, so don't know what your case fill is or what your powder looks like, but if that's not the case, I'd say you don't need one. Before I had a drop tube, of I had a load that was very full, I'd tap the case on the bench to settle the powder. If your loads are compressed, I see no problems with your vibrator setup to help the powder settle before seating

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[jetinteriorguy]

I used to use my electric toothbrush without the brush on it. I’d just touch the metal nub protruding from the toothbrush body along the side of a shell case to settle powder.

[Unclenick]

Lots of folks just set their cases in a loading tray for charging them, then pick up the whole tray and lower it onto the lid of their running vibratory tumbler. But levels of compression with black powder are pretty severe, and I have doubts about whether vibration can get you all the way there or not. You'll have to try it and tell us how it works out.

[Jim Watson]

Since I have never used a drop tube, relying only on bullet induced compression, I may be missing something in not naturally compressing my loads.

Moving to a drop tube, now, would require major modifications to my loading station, or very substantial changes in my loading process (with associated additional time).

First, drop tube some, vibrate some, and see if they improve the shooting.
Only if one or the other makes a marked improvement in accuracy do you need to think about having your procedures.

OK, now I see you plan to vibrate the whole press. Whee.

[Doc Hoy]

Twelve volt power supply. Motor controller with momentary contact switch and voltage control. Motor with eccentrics. Motor is mounted to the press base (or wherever it has the best effect).

After charging the case, return the plunger to the bottom of the stroke but leave the full case in the shell holder. Lightly hold finger on top of the full case to prevent losing powder during the "shake". Press and hold the button to shake the case in the press.

Experience will tell me the optimum voltage and shake time.

[Unclenick]

Take a look at my illustration here to get some idea of what drop tubes can do. The more the grains bounce around from the long fall, the more chances they have to settle in the lowest potential energy of fall position.

[44 AMP]

One can simply tap the side of the case with a tool such as a screwdriver a few times and watch the powder settle. repeat until the desired or full amount of "settle" is reached. Yes, take a little time and extra effort, but you don't NEED a motor vibrator.

[Scorch]

Yes, vibratory tables and tapping to settle the powder can work as well as a drop tube. Problem will be getting consistent results. A drop tube is supposed to be a tool that gives you consistent results. Relaoding for target work usually revolves around being consistent.

[Unclenick]

Yes. A vibrating table will probably have to have a timer to start and stop it after the same amount of time, and it will need the same amount of weight to vibrate each time.

[nhyrum]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Yes. A vibrating table will probably have to have a timer to start and stop it after the same amount of time, and it will need the same amount of weight to vibrate each time.

A loading block on a vibratory table seems like it could do the trick. Not as simple as a drop tube though

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[Doc Hoy]

Thanks for the extra effort you are putting into this question. When I get the thing built, I will take some photos.

As regards a timer, I could build a variable timer but, since I don't shoot for competition, precision is not all that important for me. I will just manually time it. (...hold the button down and count to five or sumpin like that).

Here is a 0-10 second delay timer which could be wired as a timer for the turn-on of the shaker. Six bucks for two of them.

[Unclenick]

...And some folks put something like yours or a fish tank aerator pump on the side of their powder measure hopper and run it a couple of seconds per throw to try to improve drop density. It did, however, make stick grain cutting worse when I tried it.

[Doc Hoy]

...for the project should be in by Tuesday. More details soon.

[Doc Hoy]

Here are photos of the shaker in its final stage. I opted not to use the timer. Easier to just count down mentally. The difference in the outcome based on time is minimal. I get about 15% reduction in powder volume after ten second or 15 seconds or 20 seconds. Doesn't seem to matter above ten seconds.

First photo is of the inside of the box. The circuit card controls speed. I still have to work out best speed.

Second photo is of a shell holder placed on top of the shaker box. I will fill up to 50 cases and place them in the shell holder. Then start the vibrating.

Third photo is of the shell cover in place over the shell holder. I will place the shell holder with shelled filled with powder on the top of the box. Hold them in place with the white cover. Turn on the shaker for the proper amount of time. Turn off the shaker. Examine the cases for good volume reduction.

e' finito.

[Bob Willman]

What was your source for the motor, motor driver and timer?

Bob
WB8NQW

[Doc Hoy]

Timer (Not needed)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B2K4Q9PC...roduct_details

Controller

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09XDR332F...roduct_details

Motor

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XRGK6GM...roduct_details

Note that they are all from Amazon and the cost for each was less than ten bucks.

Tnx,

Doc

[Doc Hoy]

As with most of my tools, jigs, or contraptions, I overthought this shaker. It does not need a timer. As one might assume, the rate at which the volume is reduced behaves in accordance with a declining non-linear trajectory. That is to say that reduction in volume is high in the early seconds of vibration and then eventually reaches a point at which more vibration has very little impact. For a scientific shooter, the ability to control the duration of the vibration might make a difference. But not for me.

Additionally, I may find, after some trials, that maximum speed (max voltage from the controller) provides optimal effectiveness and that anything less (reduced voltage and therefor reduced rotational speed) is unnecessary. If that becomes the case, the controller is similarly unnecessary.

I have more to say about this but I will let that perculate for a bit.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Doc Hoy

Here are photos of the shaker in its final stage. I opted not to use the timer. Easier to just count down mentally. The difference in the outcome based on time is minimal. I get about 15% reduction in powder volume after ten second or 15 seconds or 20 seconds. Doesn't seem to matter above ten seconds.

First photo is of the inside of the box. The circuit card controls speed. I still have to work out best speed.

Second photo is of a shell holder placed on top of the shaker box. I will fill up to 50 cases and place them in the shell holder. Then start the vibrating.

Third photo is of the shell cover in place over the shell holder. I will place the shell holder with shelled filled with powder on the top of the box. Hold them in place with the white cover. Turn on the shaker for the proper amount of time. Turn off the shaker. Examine the cases for good volume reduction.

e' finito.

Well done, a nice simple solution that should work well for not a lot invested. The nice thing is it will work with any caliber either rifle or pistol. Great example of the KISS principle in action.

[Doc Hoy]

One thing about which I am very well aware is that this device is almost un-endingly forward compatible. It can become quite complex for the purist if needed. The duration and intensity of vibration would be easy to control. Some may think that would be important.