Buying a handgun in California - Questions

[cosmos7]

I'm sure you guys get plenty of these "Hi I'm new and want to buy, plz help" threads, so I appologize in advance, but here's another one.

Right now I'm saving up to buy a handgun before the end of the year, as I hear the laws are changing come January, and will require fingerprints, and all sorts of other nonsense. Right now I'm looking at three 9mm weapons - Glock 17, 19, and the Walther P99. I've been doing an awful lot of reading, and all three seem to be decent weapons, so all I really need to do to choose is go fire them at a range, and see which feel the most comfortable with. Currently I'm leaning towards the G19 as I might want to go for a CCW later on.

In any event, I have a whole slew of questions that maybe some of you nice folks can answer for me:


General Questions:

1) Pretty sure I want to start out with a new weapon. Wise? Reasons for/against?

2) Any advise for when I actually go to purchase? Any unforseen costs I should be aware of? Things to keep an eye out for?

3) Ammo? What's good, what's bad? Walmart specials OK? I've read shooting reloads in a Glock is a bad idea due to the unsupported chamber. Correct assessment?

4) Any essentials I should be looking at buying as a completely new gun owner? I identified a decent lockable case for starters, but anything else?

5) Maintainance. I'm assuming the gun's manual will tell me how to break down the weapon and clean/lube it. Should I do this immediately after purchase and before firing? What sort of intervals is wise? Any maintainance manuals I should look at buying?

6) Any advice on how to shoot well, and how to improve my accuracy, other than practice, practice, practice? (which I certainly intend to do)


CA Specific Questions:

1) Other than getting the Safety cert, is there anything else I need to do to purchase a handgun?

2) What's the deal with gunshows? From what I can tell, even gunshow sales have to go through an FFL in this state, which means the 15 day wait period, which seems to make the gunshow rather pointless. Am I right in this assessment?

3) Absolutely anything I might have left out? Please don't hesitate to mention. I'm the sort of guy who likes to completely research anything before committing, so any infomation is helpful.


Whew. Lotta questions there. Well, thanks for reading (and hopefully answering). :)

[Radicalcleric]

1) Good side: Warranty, dealer service. bad: More cost, not buying someone else's reject.

2) tax, DOJ fees, lots of added costs in the Occupied Territory.

3) Any name brand ammo is fine. Avoid "baggy reloads," those with no name found at gun shows. Poor quality bad safety risk. You will eventually want to start reloading.

4) You will want a cleaning kit, a way to secure the gun at home, a holster if you plan to carry it, etc.

5) Clean thoroughly as per maker's recommendations. Don't be shy about asking dealer to show how to take it apart and put it back together when buying.

6) Take a class from an approved instructor.

1a) Must be 21, pass the background check, and the gun must be on the approved list.

2a) Yes, law in the Occupied Territory requires all gun sales go through FFL. All gun shows will have a transfer dealer at the show to do this. Yes, he or she will hold the gun for the waiting period and then you pick it up.

3a) Move out of the OT to someplace where the Second Amendment still has meaning.

[maxinquaye]

General:

1) Buy new - used perhaps later to add to collection at better price / unavailable new. If your only gonna have one gun, you want to know it's history.

2) Unforseen costs - DROS fees ($20) Sales tax and trigger lock (Can be avoided by purchasing a safe - see comments below).

3) Ammo - 9mm there's lots of opinions out there (Slow & Heavy to Fast & Light). I'll let you make your own call. Defensive, tough to go wrong with Federal HydraShok. Practice, white box at Wal Mart for ~$12 per 100 rounds.

4) Essentials - Gun Vault or similar quick open type box BOLTED to floor or bed. 3-5 Magazines. With Glocks I consider extended slide and mag release essential...easy do it yourself installs. Try it stock first and see.

5) Glock - virtually none. Walther, don't own one and can't tell you.

6) Shoot a lot. Take a class. Dry fire (keep all ammo in completely seperate room) 5x as much as you shoot. Sight alignment is easy to figure out...accuracy is mostly about not flinching (discipline) and trigger control. Good thing about learning on a Glock is everything else seems like it has had a trigger job :D

CA Specific:
1) Um, I have a DD214 so I'm not really sure, but I think valid california *photo* ID, BFSC card and the ability to pass the instant check are all that is required.

2) All sales must go through FFL in Cali. therefore yes 10 day wait. Sometimes good deals at shows (usually not). Go to one to find ammo cheap, accessories and consignment guns not otherwise available. Also a convienent place to join the NRA. You *are* going to join the NRA, right? I mean, my fingers are bleeding here from typing so much...you owe me buddy ;)

3) Research seems to have done you well. Could only recommend that you go to the range and try all the guns you are talking about. Also try a S&W .357 revolver while your there (seriously). You may change your mind. A good .357 would be the one I would keep if all the rest had to go. Can't go wrong with either of the others though. Once you get shooting, look into the politics behind it and hopefully you can join the fight to keep what few rights we have left here in Cali.

Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD!

[bu-bye]

Well first let me say the guns you picked are nice ones. I would go with the Glock 17. Getting a CCW licence in CA is next to impossible to get so getting a 19 would only help if it fit you hand better. A glock is like an ugly dog that keeps on bitting. Thats the function of a gun to fire and a glock will do it every time all day long. I have had my glock for 2 years and have had NO misfires or jams. All my gun buddies have bought them and they too are running with no problems since day one. Some people say glocks are bad because there is no external safety and can go off if you grab the trigger. I say to them "keep your finger off the trigger stupid." If you shot and hold your gun long enough you will not do this. I don't even put my finder on the bottle of windex when I'm not using it anymore. This is because my mind knows to keep the finger off such things. Now to your questions.

1. A used gun works just as well as a new one. Things like springs which can get old can be replaced at a very cheap price. So don't rule out a used gun. Personaly, I only by new things. there is something about not knowing the history of a gun/car/anything, that bothers. I take very good care of my things and am very picky,

2. there is a small fee for the backround check. should only be like $25.

3. I have a glock 17 and that thing will fire anything. I have used the cheaper then cheap ammo with no problems. With any gun reloads can be bad not just glocks. Things like bad cases or a double charge can send any gun to the factory and maybe you to the doctor.

4. A training class is a good idea. most ranges and shops have this or can point you to the right place. If you have a buddy that can sit down with you and help thats also good.

5. yes always clean a new gun. I clean mine every trip back from the range which is about 50-100 rounds. I'm testing my glock right now to see how long I can go without cleaning using durty cheap ammo. So far i'm on 800 rounds.

6. again a class can help you there.

CA Questions:

1. you will need to fill out a form if you buy a CA cert safe or you can just buy a CA cert gun lock there. The gun seller can help you with that.

2. yeah gun shows in CA have gone to crap. Its hard to find anything good and if you do it cost the same as your neighborhood gun shop. Plus if you buy a defective product the seller will be long gone in a few days. Stick with the shops.

[BamBam-31]

Hello cosmos7. Welcome to TFL. You're gonna like it here, and not just because you're gonna learn a whole lotta stuff. As for a few of your questions, here's my $0.02 (might not even be worth that ;) ):

I'd buy a new gun, especially if it's your first gun. You'd have to know what you're looking for with used guns (wear, defects, etc.). The Glock 19 was my first ever purchase, and I'm still happy with it. I can't ever see myself selling it. As for reloads, I think it's more of an issue with .40 than with 9mm. If you're shooting 9mm, ammo's relatively cheap anyways, so shoot factory fresh ammo like Winchester white box (I think Wallyworld's got some). Don't use lead (unjacketed) bullets. Oh, and if you're going to get a Glock, get a good holster.

Maintenance is pretty straightforward with the Glock. I'm sure the P99 isn't much more difficult. Just field strip for routine cleaning, which should be after every use. I use Breakfree CLP for cleaning and lubing all parts (it does both), Shooters Choice or Hoppe's to clean the barrel. Seems to work fairly well. About once a year or so, bring the gun in to a smith to have it serviced (they'll break down all itty-bitty parts, inspect, clean and lube it). Should be about $20 or so.

Still working on the shooting well part myself. ;)

In CA, all you need is the BFSC until next year. If you need standard capacity mags, you're out of luck. Vegas is filled with people who are out of luck. Go there.

Hope this helps. One warning: it doesn't stop with one. It never does. Don't say you weren't warned....:)

[cosmos7]

Thanks for such swift replies, and great answers. :)

SaxonPig: Simply put, I like it here in CA, even though the firearm laws here are simply ridiculous. One of the biggest things I'd like to see changed is this state become shall issue for CCW - I remember reading about a movement to get this on the ballot a while back. Being able to carry publically is the most important issue in my mind over specific weapons bans (not that those aren't important)

maxinquaye: Yes I do plan on joining the NRA. As far as I remember, it's not terribly expensive, and seeing as its one of the few organizations trumpeting our right to bear, it's a no-brainer in my mind. As far as the .357 goes, I'll give it a go, but I had a 9mm in mind because it'd have less kickback (easier for a first-timer), and the ammo would be cheaper (I could buy more, be able to practice more). Am I right in my assessment?


Few more questions:

1) Better to buy from the dealer, or buy online, and transfer through the dealer? From what I've read it's supposed to be about the same either way, but the way I read it, I avoid sales tax on a $500 odd purchase by buying out-of-state online. Don't I have have to pay transfer fees either way?

2) Someone in the LA tells me they're requiring fingerprints on their applications down there already. I was under the impression this wasn't happening until the new year. Not that I have anything to hide, I object to it on principle (although I suppose it'll happen anyway if I go for a CCW later).

3) Gun safe eh? I was planning on buying a lockable hardcase for storage, and keeping the gun in it unlocked, in a locked drawer. Bad idea? I suppose no matter what you do, you have to weigh up security against easy of access in a time of need.

Thanks again for the help.

[bu-bye]

3) Gun safe eh? I was planning on buying a lockable hardcase for storage, and keeping the gun in it unlocked, in a locked drawer. Bad idea? I suppose no matter what you do, you have to weigh up security against easy of access in a time of need.

I agree with you but Cali seems to feel differently about what is safe and what is not. The shop will not let you leave with a gun unless you have a CA approved safe or gun lock. Glad you came and are ready to fight with the rest of us. The first step is get Davis out.

[BamBam-31]

No, no no. No fingerprinting yet. I live in LA, and I just bought a Springfield Loaded. No fingerprints necessary. Yet.

Some online prices are a steal, especially some shops down in TX. You don't get to see the gun first, though. And, shops around here charge anywhere from $35-$75 just for the transfer. :mad: :barf: They lose out on business when you buy out-of-state, so they nail you with the transfer fees instead. No tax, though, you're right about that. Don't forget shipping, which usually costs another $20 or so for handguns.

I usually try to get local shops to match prices I've seen online and elsewhere. Even if they can't match it, they'll usually drop it some, maybe even throw in a trigger job for free. From what I've seen, local shops are having a tough time with all the anti-gun legislation in CA, so I try to keep them afloat with my business whenever possible.

[nonbox]

You will have to buy soon. You only have a few months left before the new laws start.

www.dnrsports.com has real low glock prices.

Sporting Arms Co
sales@sportingarms.com will match lowest prices. I buy from Sporting Arms Co. because they are the best on the web that I can find and I have done a lot of research.

CA local shops can not come close to net prices. But the hard part is finding a FFL that charges a decent price and does the transfer right. I have dealt will FFLs that charge an average Calif. price of $60 for a transfer but when you need to get a hold of the FFL to sign papers or pick up the gun, they are no where to be found, or you are constantly put on hold. Many FFLs do it as a side business so they take forever to send out the signed FFL paper to the internet gun shop or they keep putting you on hold for one reason or another.

[rick_reno]

Used vs. new - I've seen ads for "reconditioned" Glocks. I believe these come from police departments and have been looked at by a Glock mechanic and anything that needed replacing has been replaced. I'd look closely at the cost of one of these compared with a new Glock - you might be able to save some money and get a gun as good as new. People on this list who are Glock aware should be able to tell you more about these guns.
Carefully loaded reloads work well in Glocks - just like they do in all handguns. Reloads that aren't carefully done can cause problems - but they'll result in the same problems in most handguns.

For extras - get a cleaning kit.

Other advice - read the manual that comes with the gun.

Improving accuracy - accurate handgun shooting can be described as not disturbing sight allignment while pulling the trigger. Your eye cannot focus on the target and the sights at the same time, focus on the sights and let the target go blurry. You can dry fire your gun to practice this; if you're worried about beating it up dry firing buy a snap cap for it (or make one from a spent cartridge). Find a spot on a wall and work on sight allignment and trigger control. You might want to pick up one of those 22 conversions for the Glock - the Advantage Arms one actually works and lets you shoot 22 caliber ammo from your gun.

Glocks are good guns. I don't personally like them, but I do own four of them.

[wolfman97]

focus on the sights and let the target go blurry.

Let's say opinions vary. If you will look up the threads on shooting with one eye open versus two, you will find that many people find it much easier to shoot accurately with both eyes open, focus on the target. That's the way I was taught by a former national champion rifle shooter, and it works for pistols, too.

I recommend a simple exercise. Pick out a target about fifty yards away. With both eyes open and focused on it, raise your hand to about eye level and point your finger at it. Then close one eye at a time. With one eye closed, your finger will apparently point off to nowhere. With the other eye closed, you will find that you have instinctively created a near-perfect sight picture. Your dominant eye will automatically create a good sight picture if you just look with both eyes and point. (Assuming your dominate eye and hand are on the same side. If they aren't, it will require adjustments.)

All you have to do is focus on the target (where you attention would be focused in a time of stress, anyway) and point at it, letting your eyes look "through" the front sight. If you just relax and don't fight it, your dominate eye will take care of most of the work of creating the sight picture.

You will find that you can get a pretty good sight picture with both eyes open and the front sight slightly blurry.

Many people report that their accuracy improves dramatically when they use this method. Part of the reason is that it is a more relaxed and natural way to shoot. I was a competition target shooter as a kid and I learned that you get a splitting headache if you squint one eye during a long match. It's a strain.

Another part of the reason is simple geometry. If you are focusing on something near you, small errors in alignment can translate to large misses by the time the bullet hits the target. If you are focused on the most distant object (the target), your errors of alignment tend to be reduced. Same reason they tell you to "aim high" while driving to properly maintain your position in the center of the road. You wouldn't do well driving if you focused on the hood ornament.

[300lbGorilla]

All sounds like sound advice. Sure wish I had had it when I was getting into guns back in the day.

My first gun was a Glock 22 (okay, so MY back in the day isn't nearly the same as some others') and I can't say that I regret it, but would have loved to have been told that a 17 or 19 was a better idea. As for learning to shoot with it, a .22 would have been better as I was 13 at the time (dad bought the gun with my money... long story, nothing bad).

Personally, I'd go with the Glocks over the Walther as there is less to learn about it, disassembly is a breeze, and aftermarket and armorer support for the guns is HUGE.

Also, for all Californians, check out www.calguns.net.

Good luck and good shooting!

[Radicalcleric]

In the Occupied Territory getting carry permit is based on where you live and who you know. In the big cities forget it uless you are a movie star or a judge. In the rural counties they are much easier. That's the trouble with each sheriff and police cheif having pwoer to say yes or no. I grew up in Fresno County and it was well known that $500 to the sheriff's re-election fund would get you a permit.

I liked the OT, too. Grew up there and my friends are still there. But I had to leave. Right to carry in the OT? The shock would kill me. It will never happen. What will happen is that private ownership of handguns will be outlawed there within 20 years. They will make it grandfather thing as they have done in the past. No new guns can be sold or imported. When you die the state takes your guns, not your estate. "Why, we are not taking anyone's guns! We are just stopping the further spread of gun violence." Wanna bet me on this?

[Lavan]

if you agree to put the gun in a bucket of wet cement at the start of the 10 day wait and take out the whole bucket when it has dried for the 10 days.:barf:

[STW]

I don't know where you are in CA but here in San Diego county there is a dealer who will sell you any gun on the approved list for cost plus 10% ($50 max) plus shipping. Cash or check only but the price is hard to beat. The GP100 I need, err want, is $30 cheaper than the best deal I can find elsewhere. He recently sold some guy a $15,000 rifle for cost plus $50. I figure I need to visit him two more times before the year is out with a statutory 30 days between visits.

[Jeff, CA]

General

2. Go to www.auctionarms.com and click on the "find an FFL" link and enter your zip code. These are people who have chosen to list themselves as available to do transfers, so you won't get the runaround like you would if you asked a gun store to do one. Then do a search on "glock 17" (or 19). BTW, there is no such thing as a "California Glock" - they're all the same, so you can buy one at auction from any seller and have it shipped to your local FFL.

3. IIRC, only the .40 Glocks have the unsupported chamber; 9mm is fully supported.

4. a. I'd consider not buying a cleaning kit, per se; I'd put one together myself from individual items. The kit pieces are usually low quality and quantity (tiny bottle of solvent and only a dozen patches), plus they often include parts for several calibers, so you're paying for stuff you don't need. A good basic kit put together from individual pieces might include

Cleaning rod
Bronze brush(es)
Jag (brass or aluminum)
Cleaning brush (or even an old toothbrush)
Bottled solvent (Hoppes, etc)
Can of Gun Scrubber (especially useful for cleaning the lower half of Glocks) (warning - Gun Scrubber dissolves toothbrush plastic, but not the plastic of a proper gun cleaning brush, or the plastic of the gun itself)
Patches
Oil

4.b. Spare magazines (standard capacity if you have an out-of-state contact), holster and magazine pouches, hearing & eye protection for range work.

4.c. Consider night sights. They'll add $75-$100 to the price of the gun, but in addition to being visible in low light (duh), they're steel, where the plain ones on a Glock are plastic.

5. It's not absolutely necessary to clean the gun before firing it the first time, but as a minimum, you should check the bore to make sure it doesn't have anything in it. www.glockmeister.com has maintenance info, with pictures.

6. Take a class. Basic ones like the NRA's are good, big-name schools even better, if you can afford it.

Whereabouts are you? There's no shortage of California people here who would be glad to go to a range with you, show you how to field strip & clean, etc.

[Zundfolge]

BTW, there is no such thing as a "California Glock" - they're all the same
Thats not 100% accurate ... there is no special model of Glock made for California, but when a gun is advertised as a "California Glock" it just means it comes with 10 round magazines and its on the "approved" list (all Glocks except the G18 are on the approved list).

Out here in America we're still allowed to buy pre-ban full capacity magazines so you'll find guns on gunbroker (and other sites) with prebans ... the magazines are illegal to ship to California so you may end up with a gun with no magazines ... and its up to you to make sure any gun you buy online from out of state has the post ban 10 rounders ... they will arrest YOU if you have one shipped to your FFL with those evil high-capacity baby killer magazines :barf: .

[Jeff, CA]

That's where I was headed with my out-of-state comment - if you buy a used one with standard-capacity mags, you'd have to pay a little extra for shipping, and have the gun shipped to your FFL and the mags shipped to Uncle Bob in Tucson. If you buy new, it will have restricted-capacity mags, and you can have the whole thing shipped here.

[9x45]

Get the G17 and then find the nearest USPSA or IDPA match so you can get into shooting.

[ATeaM]

Go to a range and see if you can rent the various Glock models if you can. I prefer the 19 to the 17, and don't forget #34.

[Hayden]

Honestly...........I would rent a u-haul with your "gun money"
California is nice but so are plenty other places......

CCW next to impossible (for law abbiding citizens)

All depends what you want I guess sun and sand or freedom and quality of life.....

I usually buy new but have bought used before with good results.
Although when you consider dealer markup buying new sometimes only means $100 or so more.

Good luck and enjoy whatever you decide on