How many of you carry alternative means of defense?

[jrsower]

Please don't just read this thread and not respond. I'm interested in how many people with CCL's actually carry another non lethal form of defense, Pepper Spray, OC, stun gun, Louisville Slugger, etc.

I'm one of those that ONLY carries a gun. Got a small pocket knife, but I don't count that as I never assume I might need it to defend myself.

If you only read and don't respond then only the folks that DO carry more than lethal means will disproportionately affect the results.

[C.R.Sam]

Need nuther choice.
Carry gun (s) and less lethal weapon (s).

Sam

[nascarnhlnra]

CS9, Emerson Commander, & ASP 16 " baton.:D

[Blackhawk]

Most lethal thing I've got is what I was born with -- a functional brain. Other stuff is just tools, some of which are guns....

[Betty]

There's no such thing as a non-lethal weapon, but I do carry my MOD Dieter II (and other knives) and sometimes my 16" ASP baton.

[David Blinder]

If all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. I've noticed that the more experienced someone is, the higher the probability is that they'll carry alternative tools with pepper spray and/or a knife the likely candidates.

[woodland]

Just my gun, ( or guns ) ;) and my hands. If it is something that I can not avoid, or handle with my hands, then it is probably a potentialy lethal situation.

[mdwest]

I agree with David Blinder on this 100%...

you are severly limiting yourself and your defensive capabilities when you only carry a firearm..

the simple truth of the matter is that not all situations that require force for self defense warrant deadly force...

things like OC spray, batons, etc.. help to bridge the gap between deadly force encounters and non deadly force encounters..

Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
www.legionconsulting.com

[Glamdring]

I always carry a Spyderco, not that I think much of it as a weapon.
I do think knifes and/or ASP type weapons have a (limited) place for CCW & self defense.

Pepper sprays and the like I think are more useful for home defense or car defense than for carry. You can flood area outside safe room (or car) with pepper spray while you still have a physical barrier...so if it doesn't work you are no worse off, but legally you have tried one more thing short of lethal force.

My problem with non LEO using pepper spray on the street is that to use it you have to be in Danger Close to start with, so if it fails your in a worse situation than if you didn't try it. Because you would really need your lethal force in one hand and pepper spray in the other shoot & HIT with pepper spray then check and see if it works and then shoot if it didn't (can also hear prosecuter saying "he didn't need to shoot since he had already MACED the poor victum").

Now if someone would come up with a weapon mounted pepper spray device I might think about it. Or better yet a mini grenade that would give off pepper spray cloud with "smoke" so you could actually try beating feet or finding cover if caught in open.

[Hkmp5sd]

Gun, knife and feet (you'd be amazed how fast I can run when I'm scared).:)

[Poohgyrr]

Yes, on body and nearby, kubaton, OC, other stuff that will work if needed.

[notos&w]

i didnt vote 'cause i carry a gun and knife but do not regard a knife as less than lethal.

[StuckintheUK]

If you only read and don't respond then only the folks that DO carry more than lethal means will disproportionately affect the results.

OK, you have made me feel obligated to reply now! Living in the UK I don't carry any implement could be regarded as a "weapon"

[Gomez]

You are severely limiting your options if all you carry is a gun. Equipment is the least important in the scheme of things. Skill is only slightly more important. Tactics more important still and Mindset the most important of all.

If you have a commitment to avoidance, deterannce and deescalation and the appropraite mindset, tactics, skill and equipment then you have the greatest liklihood of going home safely and unmolested.

If you have the ability to inflict death or grave bodily harm on someone by application of a tool, I feel, quite strongly, that you must have less lethal options. Unarmed skills and OC are two examples from the "equipment" end of the spectrum. The mindset that comes from training in "survivalbility enhancement" is an example from the other end.

Your mind, obviously, is your greatest asset. Feed it, care for it and develop it and it will serve you well. If you do not consciously develop your mindset, it will develop subconsciously, and it will be suboptimal.

[David Blinder]

Glamdring, pepper spray is not a replacement for lethal force, it's an alternative that can be used to handle a situation before it gets more serious. If an altercation deserves a lethal response, by all means give it to them. The nice thing about pepper spray is that it can be applied relatively early in an altercation while with lethal force, you better be sure that it's warranted. On the force continuum model, pepper spray falls just above verbal commands and just below soft hands. Although I've spent 25 years building my unarmed, knife & shooting skills to fairly proficient levels, I still like having the spray as a choice. Thankfully, more people need to be sprayed than shot and I'd say that pepper spray is a better solution to more problems that we're likely to run into than any of the more aggressive options.

Gomez & others: I agree that the mind is the best weapon and that de-escalation and avoidance is preferred

[ckurts]

Like some others have said, there should probably be another choice.

Less than lethal: I always have at least one "personal size" container of defensive spray on my person, sometimes two (except in self-defense forbidden zones like airports). I carry a "large economy size" spray in the vehicle and a 200,000 volt so-called "stun gun" as well.

Lethal non-firearms: I carry a Cold Steel Voyager or a CRKT M-16 always. I have had no serious training with a pocket knife as a weapon, but I would not let that get in my way if that was all I had to defend myself with. Pointy end goes in the other guy, right? In the vehicle, I carry a tire iron and 6-cell Maglite within reach. Note that in Texas, certain types of knives and anything made as a club or baton is illegal for regular citizens.

Firearms: varies. Charter 2000 .44 Bulldog Pug, S&W J-frame, NAA .32 ACP Guardian, NAA .22 WMR mini-revolver. Even with a CHL and living in a so-called gun-friendly state, there's a lot of places where carry is simply forbidden.

My wife, who likes to shoot, thinks I'm paranoid as do a lot of other folks. Oh well.

[richhelton84]

Firearms: Either S-A XD-357 or my Taurus Model 415 (.41 Magnum)

Non Lethal: small can of pepper spray

Knife: Gerber AR 3.5

Rich

[yorec]

I pretty much consider my body as a less than lethal weapon if it comes right down to it. (larger than usual and trained to do some things that will give me an edge) But I also will not be participating in any action that requires any type of defensive maneuver if at all possible. That means I'll run, beg for mercy, or even distract my way out of danger if I can before feeling the need to pummel some jerk into submission.

The gun is in case all of that doesn't work.

The cell phone is to tell someone of the incident.

Anything else is just excess weight and something that I have to worry about dropping...

[Drjones]

Could you give me a scenario in which you would expect spray to do a better job than a gun?

While I do very much agree about the de-escalation, avoidance and all that, and WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that a gun is the VERY LAST LINE of defense, I still don't quite get it.

If you feel threatened enough to spray someone, wouldn't you feel justified in drawing (NOT NECESSARILY USING) your gun?

I've read statistics that say that approx. 75% of the time when a gun is drawn on a criminal, the situation ends WITHOUT a shot being fired.

Here's a simple example: you are walking along the street with your wife/girlfriend. Hardly a soul around. You notice some guy has been following you for a short while, and he begins closing. When he gets around 30 ft. away from you, you begin to worry, so you turn to face him. He continues towards you and pulls a knife. You yell "I am in fear of my life. I am armed and will shoot you. STOP!!!" He continues advancing. You draw your gun, leveling it at him. The guy suddenly remembers he forgot to return his rented video on time, turns and runs.

How can a situation turn out any better than that?

Here's another: you are walking along the street with your wife/girlfriend. You notice some guy has been following you for a short while, and he begins closing. When he gets around 30 ft. away from you, you begin to worry, so you turn to face him. He continues towards you and pulls a knife.

THIS TIME, you pull your pepper spray and spray him in the face. However, this requires him to be much closer (what's the max. range of sprays? I don't think its more than 10-15 ft.) and the spray has very little effect. Lucky for him he's pumped on alcohol/drugs/adrenaline, and keeps advancing. He jumps on you and begins stabbing. Your girlfriend/wife is screaming hysterically.

Aren't you glad you used your spray first???

Did I miss something here? I know they are simple, basic examples, but let's not get buried alive in "what-ifs." We could what-if all day long. Not straying too far from the examples I gave, tell me if I'm incorrect in thinking spray isn't all its cracked up to be.

Oh, sorry, one more thing: I've read some pretty disappointing test results of various types of sprays. IMO, the results vary too widely to be of much comfort to me...

[Drjones]

Also;

Say you spray a guy in SD, only for whatever reason it doesn't have the effect you were hoping for, and he keeps advancing.

Didn't you only succeed in wasting time with which you instead could have drawn your weapon and ordered him to cease and desist?

I suppose it may make you look better in court that you were kind enough to douse him in seasoning first, but what if you don't make it to court?

Better 12 than 6, and all that...

[8Balls]

I carry Gerber EZ-out knife on school grounds.

[David Blinder]

Drjones,

In your scenarios, pepper spray isn't a correct choice because you are facing a lethal threat due to the presense of the knife. Just because you have spray available doesn't mean you are obligated to use it. You use whatever level of force is needed to make the threat stop. Spray when there is no apparent lethal threat and/or you fear that the situation could become more serious.

[Joe Demko]

In addition to gun(s), I carry a kubaton and a Fox Labs pepper spray. I also carry a knife, but having been forced to stick a guy once in this life (it's revolting), I regard it as a utility item rather than a dedicated weapon.

[Larry Wright]

I responded that I only carry a gun. I sometimes carry a leatherman or an old uncle henry but only as a tool.

[qkrthnu]

You can walk through the Mall with pepper spray in your hand ready to go.

Can't do that with a gun.

[CZ Gunner]

Does a large pocket knife and a big a$$ flashlight count?

[David Park]

I used to only occasionally carry certain items, but now I ALWAYS carry:
handgun w/spare mag(s)
OC spray
Sure-Fire
defensive knife/knives

...only where legal, of course.

[eyeballz]

I carry my handgun, ColdSteel folder, and Pepper spray "MACE".
And then whatever happens to be around at the time becomes a weapon.

[igor]

Here in Scandinavia there is practically no CCW licensing available - on the other hand, neither are lethal threats. Even the knife culture here is different; the possibility to be confronted with a blade by somebody you don't know and haven't been drinking with for the last ten days is extremely small. Likewise with firearms, if you're not a career criminal or an addict with a lousy credit record, you won't see any pointed towards you.

Once off duty I opted to lend a helpful arm to a bus driver wrestling with an aggressive drug addict - handcuffs would have been an aid but there was really no problem just keeping the arm lock going for a while longer. I considered carrying the cuffs then but dropped it after a while. Likewise with the OC; only on the way to/from work.

Sound tactics and 17 years of ongoing karate training seem to work for me. A Swiss multi-tool, not for use as a "knife" but as a tekko/kubotan hand aid might provide assistance: neat kevlar/nomex-lined frisking gloves certainly do, enabling me to grapple for a blade.

[Glamdring]

If your not a LEO or security guard under what situations could you use pepper spray (or similar) where you couldn't (shouldn't?) display a gun? LEO and security guards will sometimes be trying to arrest someone which is a different tactical problem from defending yourself.

I have spent a lot of time trying to think of situations where I would use pepper spray if I had it with me. I have also interviewed as many LEO as possible about how effective is has been for them when used. They have mixed results. Often same LEO will tell about how on subject X it worked great, but it just really made subject Y POed.

There are some real limitations with the use of pepper spray. One it is a CLOSE range weapon. Two can only be used under good environmental conditions: wind direction and strength have to be in your favor, can't be raining much, or snowing much, goblin has to have face and/or eyes exposed. Plus you need a plan B because sometimes pepperspray works real good and other times it is worthless.
Not to mention you can get the stuff on yourself from wind or ending up in grapple with goblin.

[Spectre]

Hell, I once used pepper spray on a 14 yr old male who volunteered to be sprayed. He couldn't weighed more than 120 at the time, and probably less. He was smiling for the first five minutes.





:D



I believe OC is best used for dissuading animals and persuading crowds to disperse.

[pbarrick]

Oleoresin Capsicum Sprays, just like your firearm, aren't guaranteed to stop a human being engaged in violent, interpersonal conflict. It will have a diminishing effect on the person sprayed but people with a high tolerance for pain will be less effected.

Does that make it useless? No. It's useful because of where it falls under, for instance, the Federal use of force guidelines. It's after verbal and before soft hands (i.e., controlling techniques). They use it as a less-than-lethal tool and drawing that parallel makes it a viable option for self-defense.

However, I'm not going to rely on one tool (whether that's OC Spray or a hand strike) to do what I need it to when I'm facing an aggressor. If I can spray, that gives me an edge because he has to deal with it. If it's enough to stop his aggression, great. If not, I can transition to another appropriate tool (empty hand being a last resort or a way to transition to a higher-level of force).

[Ben Shepherd]

I carry a knife as well.

[gunorthopod]

If I'm wearing my fanny pack I have Glock M27,spare mag,Asp,OC,and Surefire. Wearing sweater,jacket or sportcoat,just the pistol and my ever present Spyderco.Hope to never have to deploy any of the above.

[shy_man]

I live in a busy city of Manila and I just carry my Gov't Model all the time. If the Gov't suspend CCW from time to time then I am just contented with a 4" knife on my belt plus my awareness to my surroundings. I am not going to war anyway. :cool:

[trapshooter]

in one of the StupidStates, I can't carry a concealed weapon. However, pocketknives with blades less than 4" are not concealed weapons. So... I have a Kershaw SpeedSafe. I took the stupid clip off, and the (totally unecessary) dumb little thumb lever thing on the blade. Perfectly legal, slick as a snake, and as deadly as I need it to be. For all those in a similar situation, I recommend it, if you know how to use a knife. If not, learn. Lots of books available, and you can practice with a stick.

(edited to add):

It is, like any knife this size, a weapon of last resort, and requires close-range work. Not my preference, but I have no other option, at present.

[Drjones]

trap:

How 'bout an ASP or Monadnock? Those are way more effective (esp. against someone with a knife) and WAAAY cool! :D

[old_yout]

I carry my pistol, my back-up pistol and an ASP. Also a knife, though I'd never use it in a self-defense situation. Not that it's not capable of it, but I don't think I'm good enough with it.

[forby]

I usually carry pepper spray in my vehicle, seldom on my person. The guns are easier to carry!!

I apparently ticked of a motorist in a parking lot one day and he stopped in front of me and got out of his truck in an agressive manner. I reached for my pepper spray (readily available) and shook it while this guy was approaching my car. The event came to an end rather quickly (I'm sure he noticed my shaking a magnum can of pepper spray). Now, try to imagine the s**t that would have hit the fan had I pulled my glock 36 instead!!

[SW9mm]

cs9 and an arkansas toothpick (boot dagger)

[Cowdogpete]

Lets see. On my person. Always a knife. Always a cell phone. Usually Streamlight.
Always a streamlight scorpion if I'm carrying my gun.

If I'm in my vehicle, 870, 45-70, OC, large mag light, Other pistols. Winchester expandable baton.

Most important weapon as expressed earlier is your brain. Knowing when to get the hell out and when to fight. Get some training is unarmed self defense. It's not hard. Know what to do when the bad guy has a gun and you don't. What are the odds of someone robbing you and already having their gun out? Do you think you can draw your weapon and shoot him before he can pull the trigger? There are othe options.

Get the Edge.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

P229 in .357SIG and a long-carried Benchmade automatic.

Regards,
Rabbit.

There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full. - Henry Kissenger, New York Times Magazine, June 1, 1969.

[ddelange]

1. My brain (situational awareness)
2. Glock 26
3. ASP Pepper Gas
4. Delica knife (jiu jitsu defense)
5. Cell Phone

[KK20]

.

[LiveWire]

How safe are you without your gun?

How safe are you with your gun?

How much slack is left?

[pdmoderator]

Fox keychain OC. Minimag if I'm expecting to be out in the dark. Shillelagh-like walking stick at certain select times and places.

Emerson Commander in case above fails.

- pdmoderator

[CULLENIII]

I usually carry 2 handguns, a ASP pepper spray key chain and 2 knives. In regards to use--knives daily, guns displayed 3 times-pulled numerous, pepper spray pulled numerous--used 3 times-two not so friendly dogs and one racoon that wouldnt get the hint.

[HS/LD]

I just got home a few minutes ago and emptied my pockets:


H&K Compact .40 165 Golden Sabers x 11
Cold Steel Recon 1
OC spray
Cell Phone

HS/LD

[ronin308]

One of my alternative means of defense is: full size 1911 and 2 spare mags. But on Saturday I get my J-Frame so I'll be carrying a "Chicago Combination". My other alternative means of defense are a CRKT Carson M-16 and a 21" ASP. I carry the ASP on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights when I have a good chance of encountering hostile persons under the influence. Add to all this a decent amount of unarmed skill and I feel alright. But all of these things are just secondary to my primary: my gray matter.