870 Serious-Use Shotgun

[Sundance]

I say serious use because I hate attaching words like tactical and home defense to things.

I am interested in a shotgun with virtually all the features of the Wilson/SGT Standard Model. I can buy all the parts and build it myself and save about $100 or I can spend the extra $100 and have it done for me and have Wilson instead of Remington backing it up (which they probably wouldn't because I would have modified it in some way and voided some fine print in the warranty). Help me out...which should I do?

[Dfariswheel]

last year I had the same decision to make. I cut to the chase and bought a Remington 870 Police gun.
This gave me the best of all. A genuine beefed up 870 with the set-up I wanted, guaranteed by Remington, and at a decent price.

Contrary to popular belief you can buy Remington Police guns through most good gun dealers.

Remington's PD guns are at:
http://www.remingtonle.com

[Hadaway]

I'd go ahead and let Wilson build it. The 870 Police is OK but their mag extension is not up to the quality of Scattergun's and Scattergun's Ghost Ring Sights are the best in the industry. You could do it yourself but installing the sights can be a pain if you do not have the proper tools or jigs. Warrenty is not an issue. Wilson has great customer service and when is the last time you saw a 870 malfunction anyway.

Thanks,
Lee Hadaway

http://www.thearmsroom.com

I'd tell you to send the gun to me and I'd build it but Scattergun charges so little for labor that they are the best way to go. Unless you want something special like porting or lengthened forcing cone.

[yzguy]

what do you guys think of this:

870 Express 6+1 18" barrel for $264 (http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/inven_product.asp?dealer_id=473583&item=5077&instock=all&manufact_combo=Remington&mod_ser_combo=870&category_combo=2&model=870&g_type=Shotgun&act_type=&finish_type=None&calib_combo=12+gauge&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=%24200+to+%24300&left_handed=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=)?

I am considering getting this one (the store is close by so no shipping).

what is the difference between say that one, and the police model?

[Joe Mamma]

Sundance, I would either do it yourself or take it to any decent gunsmith that has worked on an 870 before. I was in your position and sent my 870 to Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies. I did not have the best experiences with them. I bring this thread up all the time and apologize for beating a dead horse:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124088

I am still having problems with this gun . . . I am sure my experiences with Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies are not shared by everyone. But, I am just letting you know so you can make a better informed decision. Also, I understand how you feel about having a company warrantee their work. But, if they screwed something up, would you still trust them AND go to all of the trouble of sending it back again, or just do it yourself?


yzguy, that is a great gun and great deal. I think the big difference is that the Police Model is blued (i.e., smooth and shiny, and scratches easily) and the Express is a rough finish (that rusts easily). I think the Police Model has wood stocks/forearms and the Express has synthetic stocks/forearms. I also think there is some minor difference ("minor" in my opinion) with the trigger guard or trigger mechanism.


Joe Mamma

[Romulus]

Police models come in either parkerized or blue - your choice. I have both a Police and an Express, the latter for the last ten years, and it has not a speck of rust on it, in spite of a less than thorough cleaning and lubing regimen. The Express model also comes from the factory with press-checkered birchwood stocks.

I would consider a Scattergun Tech mag extension if they made a +3 model to go with the 20" barrel

[Dave McC]

It's a buckdancers' choice, my friend. Any short bbled 870 is a close range weapon of tremendous effect.

If I were ever mistaken for a gunsmith, the light must have been bad. However, I've done most of the stuff that Vang and ST do, and farmed the rest out to a decent smith, stuff like a longer forcing cone or a trigger job.

If I were starting from square one in putting together a "Serious" shotgun, it'd be something like this and in this order...

One 870, a police turnin preferred.

Whatever stock work needed to make it fit me.

A trigger of less than 4 lbs, if said 870 doesn't have one already.

A bead sight,unless I really wanted to use slugs and/or hunt deer with it.Then a set of peep or GR sights.

A case or six of ammo. After the ammo's all shot up, then decide what bells and whistles are needed to go to the next step.And buy more ammo.

Then comes the stuff like mag extensions, lights, and so on.

Bayonet lugs,heat shields and so on are at the bottom of the list, IMO.

While basic 870s like this aren't terribly fashionable with Manly Men, they're wonderfully effective in trained, cool hands. Doubt it? Invite some old codger like me over with a basic 870 and shoot against him with your Loudenboomer SP Mag with its depleted Uranium pellet 000 and belt feed. Then be ready to eat a little crow...

[Romulus]

I've become so disillusioned by the "tactical thing" lately after a decade of cultivating it. Only add-on is a mag extension now, I even purchased some used wood (thanks again to member Fritzebeagle) to replace the Speedfeed stuff, and concentrate more on basic maintenance and practice (cleaning / lubing and range time)...I'm on the slippery slope to total loss of manhood I guess.

[harrydog]

How the the 870 Police models differ from the standard 870's, other than the obvious?
I've heard someone use the term "beefed up". Is there anything different about them that would make them more durable than any standard 870?

[9mmMike]

What exactly is wrong with the factory mag extensions? I continually see people saying that they are not sturdy.
Is this true or do we feel the need to justify that expensive Wilson or Vang extension?
I have a handful of factory extensions, all purchased used. Most came from police guns and have been abused but function flawlessy. You would have to swing the 870 like a louisville slugger against a cinderblock wall to dent the darn things.
I find that the factory extension/clamps are perfect.
I probably should have started another thread but there ya go.
Mike

[Skullboy]

9mmMike, I agree with you. I have had no problems with my factory mag extension on my 870 Police Magnum.I don't know about the newer ones, but this one is really well made( Its about 5 years old).
Skullboy.

[johnbt]

I never have anything to add to these how-to-build-an-evil-black-shotgun discussions. The mag extension for my 870 Express Magnum is a Wal-Mart Special 1100 :) I like having a back-up handy. I can always use it to arm a friend or a guest if need be.

And I've never felt that having only 5 3-inch 12ga. shells was any kind of a disadvantage. Of course, a CZ loaded with 18 rounds of 9mm +P Gold Dots provides a little cushion.

We now return you to your local programming.

John

P.S. - If you spray some good oil on the Express finish it won't rust - even if soaked in salt spray off and on for a week and generally ignored.

[yzguy]

Well I now own said Express model.... mag extension seems fine to me, but then again I have nothing to compare it to....

[9mmMike]

With regards to the original question...
I pondered this same thought myself and after much reading, research and general pestering of the vast wealth of experience here on TFL, I bought a used Express with a 20" rifle-sighted IC barrel.
I shot it a bunch then bought some very rough (but not cracked) police trade-in wood and a +3 extension.
I refinished the wood myself, added a side-saddle and replaced my stock sights with Express (nee Ashley Outdoors) sights and shot it some more.
Next I bought another 20" barrel and took it for a forcing cone job to a local SG smith and swapped my fancy sights over and shot it a whole bunch more.
I bought another 870 (used) that I could not pass up and pretty much duplicated the first one.
Finally I sent yet another spare barrel (they're breeding or something!) out to Vang and had it, well, Vang'd.
This barrel shoots so tight that I can not use it for clays any more. I'm just not that good a shot! :( It is now a dedicated house gun. I am still looking for some sort of event/competition where I can use it rather than have it collect dust. I have this thing about using all my guns. ;)
Then there was this great deal on a police trade in.....
And so the story goes....
The thing with Wilson is, IMHO, that other than the very nice sights and coatings, they do very little that you can not do yourself.
I think my current setup is perfect (for me) and I would do it again (probably will!) in a heartbeat.
There is a wealth of information in the TFL archives about how to fine tune your 870. If the search is working, have at it!
Mike

[johnbt]

To answer the original question, I'd do it myself.

I did hand fit a Pachmayr Decelerator to my 870 Express a few years ago, so I guess there's hope for me yet ;)

And I coated the action bars with Flitz and cycled it a thousand and some times - I had the flu and was bored with watching movies. It really improved the action. I think that's all I've done to it so far, other than staining over the scratches and gouges.

I won't touch an 870 trigger group. All I do is what Remington recommends, soak it with RemOil and then shake the excess off. If it's been in the water I'll hit it lightly with a spray cleaner before the RemOil soak.

John

[9mmMike]

Oh yeah. As johnbt mentioned, a Pachmayr Decelerator is a good addition. I fit them to mine as I was refinishing the stocks. It is easy that way. They make (for me) a huge difference in felt recoil.
Mike

[Dave McC]

I'm feeling downright avuncular, reading this thread. A coupla things...

I THINK the extension on my HD 870 is a Remington, on there since 1980 or so.I also think the one on my deer 870 is a Choate, installed around 1990.First one's a 2 shot, second's a 3. But it could be the other way around. Neither are marked. Zero probs with either. And both have been used extensively,and kept loaded one under cap. I doubt the make matters, quality sureasheck does.

And, make sure the bbl is clamped to the extension. Does amazing things to slug groups...

870s can be taken apart and put together like Lego sets.Doing so enables one to really know their weapon, an insubstantial but real advantage when it comes to confidence. Kuhnhausen's book is nice to have for this, BTW, but not essential.

HTH...

[9mmMike]

avuncular? :)

[Dave McC]

From Webster's Unabridged....

Avuncular:

From Latin, Avunculus, (uncle).

As, like or pertaining to an uncle.

It's like the torch has been passed.....

[9mmMike]

"torch has been passed"?

Hardly. :)

I'm thinking there are still a "few" things you might teach us Dave!

Mike

[Dave McC]

Thanks, Mike, and maybe so. Lots of folks helped me get to where I am today, and it feels good to pass it on.

[Captain Bligh]

Less is more. I went for simplicity. I got an 870 Express, put on an 18.5" barrel and called it done.

I guarantee an intruder would be just as discouraged meeting mine at 2:30 a.m. as s/he would a tactical, tricked out gun.

RJ

[Mannlicher]

Dave,
I felt Avuncular once, but the persipcacious EMT swore that it would not be fatal.

............and I have never had a problem with my factory Mag extensnion on my 870.

[Romulus]

And, make sure the bbl is clamped to the extension. Does amazing things to slug groups...
Dave, I read an article, I believe by the departed Mark Penman aka Laissezfirearms, claiming that clamping the barrel to the extension destroys groups on a shotgun barrel...could you describe your experience with clamped vs. non-clamped?

Thanks

[Dave McC]

In 1981, I was attending an instructors school run and staffed by the FBI. The weeklong course was supposed to upgrade proficiency amongst the instructors and those taught by same. This being Md, most of the slots were filled by politicians rather than line officers, but a few of us managed to squeeze in.

FYI, the brass didn't trust me a darn bit. They needed some decent shooters, and I'd gotten some attention at the range and in the training office.
So I made it, instead of somebody's Brother In Law.

My oldest 870 was there also,halfway through the transformation from GP field gun to "Serious" use. The bbl had been trimmed,peep installed,cone done, but no extension. During the shotgun phase of the training, the head instructor and I talked about slug shooting. I was doing better than most there, and was delighted to have a few days getting paid for shooting up Govt ammo.

The instructor told me that they had discovered an extension generally tightened up slug groups nicely IF the extension was clamped tightly to the bbl. I shot one of his shotguns in a fast and short COF with the 1 oz Winchesters we had been supplied with, got a nice group and noted the ease of recovery.

So, I went to Guns R Us and got a 2 shot extension for the 18" bbl. Next stop the range, and those Winchesters started falling into groups not much more than half the size of those before. I tried the 1 1/4 oz Rottweil Brennekes that were my slug of choice there and then and watched them go into less than 3" at 50 yards, and oft much less.

Same thing for the couple of other 870s I've done or influenced them being done. Less kick, greater accuracy, every time.

A caveat or two...

One,snug the collar up with the padded channelocks/one click method. The idea's to take out all the play in the unit. THEN use the clamp, and do not oversnug there either.

Two, the most accurate slug before may not be the most accurate after.The bbl harmonics have changed greatly. You may have to retest to find the best combination.

HTH...

[Romulus]

Thanks Dave...I'll do some testing when I hit the Wisconsin countryside in the coming weeks. Hopefully I can duplicate your experience...

[Peepsite]

And I thought I was the only guy with 8 Riot guns in my safe, 5 - 870s, one Model 97 and one Model 12. Thanks for all the info, Stan

[Dave McC]

Rom, you're welcome. Please let us know of your results, good or bad.

Stan,at least 4 of the 5 870s here could serve as riot guns, stretching the definition a touch to include the 20 gauge YE. What can I say? Shotguns can be addicting....

Some years ago I knew a collector of fighting shotguns. He'd everything from a real Lupara to that High Standard bullpup. Maybe 20 or so, and not a sporting arm in the bunch. He was not a shooter of these, but did take some out once in a while. His HD choice was a Model 12 Trench.