Bad features for a defensive handgun

[griz]

I’ve seen several posts on what people want in a serious defense handgun. Now tell me what features would positively STOP you from buying a gun. Not necessarily a carry gun, but one you would rely on for self defense. My show stoppers are:

1. Magazine disconnect safety. I don’t want the gun disabled at any time.
2. Safety that works "backwards". After becoming familiar with safeties that are thumbed down to fire, I don’t want any confusion under stress.

What are yours?

[MJRW]

My home defense handgun is a Ruger GP-100 4" steel loaded with 158 grain .38 special +p JHP. The reason I have this available as opposed to my semi-auto is that I know that this gun will never fail on me. I will never jam, never need to clear a jam, never fumble over a safety. Its like Windows, just point and click, without the poor reliability. So I guess my "bad feature" would be questionable reliability.

[Chipperman]

You guys already mentioned the three most important ones IMO.

The next issues would be caliber and capacity.

I would never buy a single or double shot only, or a caliber of .22 or .25. A .32 would be marginal for me. Anything bigger ok.

[Crimson Trace]

I'll take a crack at this.

For me:

1) Any double/single action pistol. Make the first shot count! The change of trigger pull drives me nuts.

2) If its gotta be a double single, it can't have a safety. I like the Beretta G models or the Sig style.

3) Any gun that is hard to service or hard to get parts for. There are lots of cool (but obscure) pistols out there that I'd consider, but for parts/service availability. Best if the average idiot (me) can solve common problems.

4) Anything shown to be the least bit unreliable.

[Mike Irwin]

Porting, especially on a short barreled revolver.

[Sundance]

I agree on the reliability one.

I agree on the mag disconnect safety one.

I will add porting...don't like porting on any gun, especially one intended for "up close and personal" or low light work.

And I will add really long barrels (over 5 in an auto or over 4 or 5 in a revolver)...unneccessary for range at which a self-defense shooting would occur, and a lever or handle for someone to get a hold of to get your gun away from you in a struggle.

Also, adjustable sights I can take or leave but would just as soon leave. Not necessary for other than target shooting or long range hunting and just something else to break.

I am sure I will think or others, but that is all for now...

[Sundance]

It appears Mike snuck in porting ahead of me while I was busy typing. Quit typing so fast Mike! I only type with my trigger fingers.;)

[Kermit]

The 2 I stear clear from are porting & the mag disconnect.

[meat]

Which semiauto's use a magazine disconnect? Do any popular brands use this?

[Correia]

Mag disconnects: Browning Hi-Power, S&W 3rd generation.

I wouldn't rule out a gun because of the mag disconnect. In fact it has proven handy a few times for people who work in professions where they may be subject to a disarm attempt.

[Crimson Trace]

Quick, funny story. re: barrel porting

Well its funny, because it didn't happen to me.

We were doing some range training with a local group and one our guy is demonstrating shooting from awkward or compromised positions. With his brand new Taurus Ti revolver. (compensated)

Goes to a tight retention position, lights up the target, puts one shot in the head and gets absolutely fragged with gasses venting up all over his chest and up (UNDER) his glasses.

He was fine, so it was OK to laugh.

-Z

[Ala Dan]

I would not want a weapon with adjustable sight's,
for fear that the sharp edges might snag on clothing.
Also, I don't care for bright, shiney finishes on a CCW
piece; cuz in this day and time you need the element
of suprise on your side!:D :cool: :)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Sundance]

I wouldn't rule out a gun because of the mag disconnect. In fact it has proven handy a few times for people who work in professions where they may be subject to a disarm attempt.

I am not saying that this isn't true, Correia, but I am going to ask you to prove it. I hear this said over and over, but I think it is a purely hypothetical issue. If you can provide me with proof/actual documentation of an actual real life incident where this has been true, I would love to hear it...really I would. Otherwise I will continue to call B.S. on this argument. I think it is one of those urban legends of gunlore.

[MikeJ]

The one feature that I don't like on a defensive gun is a safety. In fact, I prefer DA revolvers and DAO pistols for defensive purposes. I use a Beretta Cougar DAO in .40, a S&W 66 snub, a S&W 640 Centennial and a NAA Guardian in .32 for my defensive weapons. I don't want to think about anything other than pointing and shooting if that day ever comes when I need to defend myself. I love SA (1911's & BHP) and DA/SA pistols for fun range time but not for serious application.

[KSFreeman]

Not want?

1. bad trigger,
2. tiny sights,
3. double action,
4. dinguses,
5. sharp edges,
6. big, melted hubcaps where mag release should be,
7. Anything that does not need to be on the weapon (wells, extended this or that, laser/phasers or wind speed indicators),
8. Anything advertised in a gun rag.

[Al Thompson]

Sundance, Ayoob has (claims) to have documented several (+10, IIRC) saves. I can take it or leave it, I'm not rassiling folks for a living like an LEO. If I was a LEO, I'd want the option or at least a level II or better retention holster.

Back on topic - I don't care for ports and for CWP, adjustable sights or extended anything - less snags the better. Having snagged the fool out of my self at my last IDPA match, it's a new revelation.

Reliability is the number one thing with me however. I have gotten "spooked" by guns that jammed and I could not ID the reason. Once I lost confidence, the gun goes away.

[shy_man]

I don't want a defensive CCW weapon that is fat and very much customized, as this will snag to your shirt or to anything that covers it.

I like a defensive weapon that is very basic like the 1911 platform out from the box that works (meaning, it will always go bang everytime I pull the trigger). That is what I need for self defense only, it will never misfire.

For a showy gun then, I like to see the most customize, for others may envy to the beauty appearance of it.:)

[biere]

Anything more complicated than some of the simplest handguns.

I compare revolvers to rugers in most cases, and mag fed to glocks in most cases.

There are simpler ones out there, but something that is not a robust reliable design is a non-starter.

And it needs to be in a caliber I like.

[Blue Duck357]

Mag disconnect and manual safeties fine by me.

Main thing that would eliminate a gun for me is being unproven. Seems even guns well regarded now often had growing pains their first few years, so I never rush out to buy the newest toy on the block. Once it's been around ten years or so I'll take a look at it.

Bells, whisltles and tactical nonsense also turn me off pretty quick. Oh and if the they call it the "Lady Reno" or "Rosienator" I'd pretty much pass ;)

[Ladybug]

Well, having very recently bought a gun that I hate... I can tell you!
- A gun I can't hit anything with for whatever reason
- Double-action

[shy_man]

Lady bug, you made me giggle in front of my PC when you mention Double-Action.:)

[boing]

Slide mounted safeties.

That area of the gun is reserved for manipulating the slide, like in an emergency(doh!).

Don't put fumbly things there.

[blades67]

I wouldn't buy a gun for home or self defense with a poor record of reliability, poor trigger, or poor quality of manufacture, but I'd use whatever I could get my hands on for same.

[OkieCruffler]

I want my carry gun to be super simple. DAO with no external safety. Anything else I might take to the range, but it won't go in my pocket.

[Marko Kloos]

I am not saying that this isn't true, Correia, but I am going to ask you to prove it. I hear this said over and over, but I think it is a purely hypothetical issue.

Off the top of my head, I remember some LEO dash cam footage where the officer wrestled with the suspect who was resisting arrest. The suspect got a hold of the officer's 3rd generation S&W, there was a struggle (off-camera), and then the suspect ran away, through the camera's POV, with the officer's gun in his hand. The officer, off-camera, towards the mike: "It's OK, I got the magazine."

[4V50 Gary]

Customized target guns. No extended safeties, or extended slide releases, or things which may catch on your clothing.

Keep it simple and don't take a prima donna to a gunfight. You want something that is completely reliable and can take a diet of any and all ammunition you wish to feed it.

[Mike Irwin]

"Goes to a tight retention position, lights up the target, puts one shot in the head and gets absolutely fragged with gasses venting up all over his chest and up (UNDER) his glasses."


Crimson,

Yep, EXACTLY my concern, one that I've voice here numerous times before. I'd much rather leave the porting off and reduce the chances of accidentally blinding myself.


Sundance,

It helps if you type with BOTH trigger fingers. Keeping one in your nose cuts your typing speed by roughly 50%. :D :D :D

[Dr.Rob]

It shouldn't be ported, have "hi profile" target sights, or be in a caliber under 38/.380. It should have a grip you can get your hand around (rather than leaving your ring finger and pinkie dangling).

The rest is a matter of personal taste.

Personally I don't like DA/SA pistols (unless its a revolver). or frame mounted safeties. But plenty of people like them.

[CastleBravo]

It doesn't work (obvious).
It has things that are too fragile (optics).
You personally can't hit with it (bad ergonomics/trigger/sights for you).
If you do hit with it, it doesn't matter (too weak a caliber).
You can't bring it into action quickly (excess bulk, things that snag, controls you can't reach, etc.).

Side note: on a 1911, a magwell isn't necessarily a bad thing for a real weapon. You can cut the frame shorter before you fit it, so you don't increase the bulk, you can melt the edges so it doesn't snag, and the big ol' hole does make for faster reloads. It is hard to break a welded-on piece of steel. On the other hand, some of the competition magwells are just nutty... funnels the size of frisbees need not apply.

[Chugach]

"Sticky" grips that hang on clothing.

[Patrick Murphy]

No safeties, nothing under .380/.38, no single-action revolvers. DAO autos and DA revolvers are my favorites.

[Robert Foote]

KISS about covers it. Ed Heinneman (sp?) who designed the A-4 Skyhawk, said his goal was to simplify and add lightness.

Stuff to shun:

A gun that has any tendency to malfunction at any time, for any reason. Get rid of it asap.

A gun that doesn't let you shoot your best. It's not great unless it's great in your hands. I have $150 guns that make me look great and pricey ones that constantly embarrass me.

Safeties, dohickies, disconnectors, newfangled action locks. Murphy rules.

'Sticky' grips (well put) or grips that do not fit your hand. Even more obvious, guns that are too big for said hand.

Gunshop commando crap. If the sights are big, bold, and easy to see, and the trigger is one you can live and hit with, leave the gun alone.

Action jobs by Joe the Plumber.

Any gun that has fewer than two wars or two decades of hard street use to its credit.

Guns that qualify in my book are good basic 1911s, K frame Smiths, Ruger double action Six series guns. M870 Remington and M1A the same.

[WESHOOT2]

I hate sharp crisp edges on my guns.

[Erik]

Bad features on a defensive handgun:

Most everything other than night sights commonly added on.

[marca]

I will no longer buy brands that have to be sent to some distant parallel universe for factory repair work. I've had some brands that make a round trip with 1 to 2 weeks and others that have taken 6 to 8 weeks for fairly simple and minor work. The delays have always been due to poor customer service rather than complexity of work. Does little good to have a nice gun if you have to part with it for long periods of time.

[19114EVER]

Anything less than .45 ACP in caliber.
Anything not made by Colt, Kimber, Wilson, AO (new Kahr, of course), Les Baer, Ed Brown, or Springfield.
Anything double stack mag, too wide for my hand.
Any DA or DA/SA.

Yes, I'm narrow minded.

[nsf003]

I don't like having a mechanical safety on my gun. A decocker on a semi is ok. Nothing to fumble with when there is a guy with a knife charging you. I like it when i can just point my 357 and shoot. Easy. KISS is a great rule.

nsf

[Mannlicher]

I agree with your first two Grizz, and would add that I would not buy a 'ported' gun for serious social work.

[seeker_two]

Any gun that deviates significantly from its ORIGINAL design.

The 1911 originally designed by John Browning was a superb firearm. When you start adding on junk like guide rods & extended buttons & other junk, it compromises its function & reliability. Same thing w/ any other firearm. KISS...

BTW, single-action revolvers can make a good defensive handgun. I know a few guys who carry them for CCW; and, after having seen them shoot, I don't think they're poorly armed. Practice is the key....

[Tropical Z]

Hi-Point handguns are another brand that has a mag disconnect.

[aquapong]

1. a manual safety - I will not have one on any of my "for real" handguns, but on the play guns it fine

2. must be proven to be reliable

3. must be dao or have a non slide-mounted decocker

4. basically, it must be from one of these companies: Glock, Sig, Taurus revolvers, CZ, or Ruger.

[New_comer]

Anything that looks like it's gonna be auctioned at Sotheby's or Cristie's.

You'd be inviting trouble with a piece like that...

[Gonzo_308]

1) Slide mounted safety.
2) Too small to use effectively
3) Too heavy to be comfortable carrying

[Oracle]

For defensive handguns:

I don't like manual safeties (basically, if you have to do anything other than pull the trigger for the gun to go bang, then I don't like it on a defensive handgun)

I like a gun that has the same trigger pull, every time, even if it has a heavy trigger pull. No DA/SA guns for me (at least, as defensive handguns).

I don't like anything that can catch on clothing easily, such as a prominent external hammer, overdone beavertails, or high-riding sights that can easily catch on something. Like has been said before, the gun should feel like a used bar of soap, nothing to really catch on things.

This means that I pretty much like Glocks, some DAO autos, and bobbed hammer (or hammerless) revolvers for defensive work. But, that's just my personal opinions, YMMV.

[satxman]

My requirements.

1. no more than 6" long.
2. light to carry, 22 ounces or so. I can get lighter gun back to target faster than heavier weapons. Less mass I guess.
3. .45 caliber, my prejudice for big and subsonic.
4. 10+1 capacity
5. DOA for consistent trigger pull, period. Light single action trigger is not for me when it comes to self defense. Shooting at paper it is totally cool, under stress just too touchy in dynamic action (running, ducking, seeking cover, changing hands, etc.) for me, that is. Could care less about "gritty" trigger and other such silliness. No trigger jobs as long as trigger works.
6. Must have manual safety as I use the safety to carry strong side thumb and have trained to sweep down on safety. Easy for anyone who walks upright and can chew gum at the same time. I know how to operate the safety, the BG may have trouble if he gets the gun unless he trained in doing so as well.
7. Must be able to control for rapid fire till lock back at 7 yards. No double taps, pure firing till lock back or until BG drops from sight picture.
8. No snags, hammers, beavertails or such. Must be striker fired.
9. I like mag disconnects for retention issues, but alas....
10. Have shown at least 1000 rounds of dependability and that is minimum.
11. Must be able to get all three fingers of strong side hand on grip. More important for retention and control purposes than shooting purposes. I can shoot with one finger on grip.
12. Must point and fire well from retention position. Practice, it's important.
13. Should be able to remove sights and still hit COM at 7 yards, the point being, you don't need adjustable sights for personal defense. The opportunity for you to accurately "sight your target" is very remote. Do require fixed, night sights so I can find the gun easily. Getting old.
14. Must be able to handle recoil and torque one handed both strong and weak side. If you can't, keep practicing or change weapons. Very important.


Whew! Thats all I need.

[satxman]

Bad Features. Remember, this is a PD weapon not a target or competive shooting weapon.

1. Longer than 6" total.
No need

2. Heavier than 26 ounces.
I can control lighter weapons to get back on target sooner than larger heavier weapons. Must be the mass.

3. Smaller caliber than .45
(my prejudice for big and sub-sonic)

4. Less capacity than 10+1
Why would I want less?

5. Single action triggers.
Much to touchy for me in dynamic action. (moving, running, ducking, rolling, changing hands) Want regular, expected 8-10 lbs pull, DAO. Don't care about "gritty triggers" and other silliness. I promise you, you will not notice "gritty" trigger when the SHTF. No trigger jobs unless trigger doesn't work.

6. No safety. Issue very Important to me.
I use the safety as a thumb carry for my strong side. I have trained to sweep down which BTW anyone who walks upright and doesn't have a prehensiled tail can learn to do. Having my thumb ride the safety keeps my grip up high on the weapon. Also, if the BG gets the gun, he may have trouble operating the gun just like a lot of people on this forum would have, unless he trained otherwise. You see, I can shoot a weapon that has a safety or one that doesn't as I always sweep. If no safety, so be it. Now if you never train to disengage a safety, you will stumble snatching up another weapon that has one. Could be embarassing.

7. Short grips
Need three finger room. Not so much for shooting. Can shoot with one finger, but more for control and retention.

8 Adjustable sights
Should be able to shoot till lock back to COM at 7 yards without sights at all. Do get wrapped up in target shooting your PD gun. practice, fast, faster, fastest to COM. Just give me fixed with night sights as I need to see the gun on the bed stead. Getting old. Also, helps in firing from retention position in dark.

9. Hammers, beavertails etc.
Must be striker fired. period. Hands and objects can be place between the hammer and the firing pin. Just like the much beloved manual decock. I guess it all depends on who has control of the weapon, huh. What a horrible thought. Bad guy at my face, my single action cocked and locked, I unlock and pull the trigger and the BG is holding/obstucting the hammer. Ouch! I still want a 1911 but not as my PD, CCW weapon.

10. Undependability
Must have 1000 rounds minimum to be a PD gun for me. Any excessive or recurring problems and the gun is out of there.

Something I really need.

I must not only feel confident that the weapon will not let me down but I must also be able to wrap it up, control it, make it an extension of body. I must be able to fire it at retention and strike COM. I must be able to shoot it sideways, upside down, on my back, on my side, stong hand, weak hand. Must control the felt recoil, the tourque and the follow through. I always practice 75% of the time with the PD weapon so I guess I will never be a marksman.

Blah, blah, blah, just the rantings of a novice.

[satxman]

Aaaarrrh! So sorry for two separate rantings.

[Correia]

Sundance,

I do not recall when this happened, because it happened before I moved to Utah, but a SL cop (can't recall if it was city or county) was beaten down by a crazy guy. Had his Smith taken from him. Bad guy pulled trigger repeatedly nothing happened. Bad guy looked for safety. Released mag instead. Bad guy gave up in frustration and ran away.

Ayoob has a bunch of documented cases. Every once in a while he will have a bunch in an article. I cannot verify the accuracy of any of these of course, but I don't see that he has any reason to lie.

[boing]

There are a few posts from TFLers who have been saved, or had their partners saved, by mag disconnects. This includes at least one person who is not LE.

[Sundance]

Well perhaps it has happened (the mag release save) but I just don't buy it a valid technique. And I doubt it has happened as much as some say it has. My local City, County, and State agencies all carried S&W 5906 pistols at one point. I know of no mag release saves. Learn proper weapon retention techniques and proper unarmed fighting techniques. If an unarmed suspect tries to get your weapon from you, he is now an armed suspect. If you are able to drop the mag, then you are probably able to put 2 in his chest and would be totally justified in doing so. And now, anything goes. Knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands...kill the SOB before he kills you.

[rauchman]

Now this whole thing is based on a self defense weapon. I would consider that my bedstand pistol. So, what features would I not want on my bedside pistol. For starters, a platform that I couldn't shoot well with. Would not want slide mounted safety or a safety done in typical European fashion (swing up for activating weapon)....I prefer the sweep down for Fire. A pistol that doesn't hold at least 10 rounds.....preferably more. A caliber below 9mm powerwise. A pistol that doesn't go at least 1000 rounds without a hitch. A pistol that has it's slide release placed right where I lay my right thumb.......slide never locks back. Magazine disconnect I can take or leave......prefer not to have it. Sights that I find too small.

My bedstand pistol is a HKUSP 45F. It does all the things I want it to do, with the addition of having cocked and locked capability, yet still be able to rack the slide. I do not leave a bullet in the chamber. I do leave the safety on. The gun is in a draw next to the bed. I want to be able to open draw, rack slide, and still have the safety on. If someone is coming into my home, my front door is too noisey not to wake up....a very tight fitting door. I'm on the second floor, so window entry is not very likely. Out of all the pistols I shoot, the USP ties with the Sig 226 as the gun I shoot best. Keep 2 mags at the ready besides mag in the gun. For the amount I practice (500 rounds per month combined across 3 pistols including USP) the USP allows me to shoot quick multiple hits in the torso area of a target. Yes, there are guns with better triggers and striker fired pistols and blah blah blah, but, and here is the key, none of that matters because I can shoot really well on that gun and it has all the features I'm looking for. :cool: :D :cool:

[Penman]

Correia,
IIRC, what occured with the SLC Officer was that the BG tried to shoot him with the safety engaged on the S&W. When it wouldn't fire, he puched the mag release, which dropped the mag enough to activate the mag safety, but didn't drop the magazine completely. He then put the safety in the off position, but then the mag safety prevented the gun from firing. It was a "passive" save, but it did save the right life.
When Ayoob started to collect information on these saves, he also asked for cases where someone needed to shoot their pistol when the magazine was either removed or lost. He got a lot of disparaging letters for doubting Jeff Cooper's wisdom, but never received any information on any case where someone was saved because they were able to fire their pistol without a magazine in place.
Personally, my main carry piece doesn't have a mag safety, but I would not feel disadvantaged carrying my S&W 3913 either. This thread has provided a lot of thoughtful opinions, and will provide great information to many newer shooters.

[Chieftan 6]

Yea, most of the guy's that had the weapon not fire because of the safty or magazine safty are listed in the obituaries!

Most common reason for a ftf of 1911 type weapons:

FAILURE TO RELEASE SAFTY!

[juliet charley]

Interesting observations, but I think the key, as some have alluded, is to know your weapon and practice with it consistently--sort of the "beware of the man with one gun" thing.

I don't see safeties in any form, European push-up or Colt sweep-down, to be particularly detrimental so long as you are familiar with them, and their use is habitual. Where safeties can get you in trouble is where you "mix and match" weapons--some with safeties, some without; some push-up, sweep down; etc.

As for the magazine safety, I see it really as non-player in any real world situation. It is an "administrative" handling convenience sure--but definitely not a drawback. In terms of "getting in the way" when you need your weapon, it's just not likely. To be honest, I figure there is a far greater chance of kB! when you need the weapon than you will ever need the single round in the chamber when the magazine is out of the weapon. But again, to each his own. KNOW YOUR WEAPON--the rest will take care of itself.

[jason10mm]

SATXMAN, what weapon DO you use? From your requirements; a 22 oz, 10+1 .45ACP that is both striker fired and DOA, but has a thumb safety. I can't think of a single pistol matching that description, but it sounds awesome. What is it????

Personally, as long as the pistol is reliable and concealable, it is good to go, be it a Desert Eagle or a Kel-tec P-32. Just practice, practice, practice and dress accordingly. Most malfunctions I've seen come from guys who talk a lot but only shoot a little, have sloppy reloads, or bubba their guns with the dremel. Later.

[Cthulhu]

Jason,
I'm rather curious as well. If you fudge an ounce or so, the only DAO, striker-fired, 10+1 .45 with a sweep down safety is the Taurus PT-145. Forgiving another oz in weight, an esoteric choice could also be a Glock 30 fitted with a Cominolli safety. Hopefully SAXTMAN will let us know which weapon meets his tough standards for Personal Defense.

[Brian Williams]

I want to know what other guns he fires and has no problem because "I always sweep" will put on a few safeties

Give me my S&W mod 13, it's to bad S&W never made them from the factory with moon clips

[Cee-Zed]

I don't like kicking a guy while he's down, but...

10+1 rounds of .45 ACP weighs just over 8 ounces (with 230gr bullets). Assuming no weight for the magazine, that leaves him an 14-18 ounce .45 handgun. (His discussion seems to indicate the total mass of the loaded handgun.)

Sign me up for one of those!

[popnokick]

Something I haven't seen mentioned - Many DAO semiautos will permit the slide to be pushed backward when a round is chambered. Doing so on many will cause the gun to go out of battery, or disconnect the trigger.

To find this out with your autoloader - UNLOAD it. Check to ensure it is unloaded. Check again.

If necessary, cock the action by operating the slide. Point the gun in safe direction. Move the slide back 1/4 inch or so and pull the trigger. If the firing pin strikes, repeat the above moving slide back farther each time until you pull the trigger and nothing happens.

Now - someone educate me. Can this happen with a DA/SA autoloader that permits "cocked and locked" operation, or is the slide locked in place on a chambered round?

[Cee-Zed]

On CZs, the slide is locked when the manual safety is engaged (at least on the guns with the SA/DA system).

[New_comer]

On CZs, the slide is locked when the manual safety is engaged (at least on the guns with the SA/DA system).

I like that the slide on the SA/DA USP can be racked even if the safety is engaged. Zero chance of ND during unloading, especially to those who always inadvertently violate rule#3.

[Still Shopping]

First on my list of not to buy is enclosed firing mechanisms. The 380s are a prime example. After wear they can discharge without warning, and it's difficult to tell if they're charged. Second is chrome, or nickel. It's a tool, not a show piece. Lets face it, most self defense situations are going to be in or near dark. Lets not tip our hand by outshining his gun. I'm not entirely opposed to some bells, or safeties, however I don't want things hanging all over it, as some have mentioned. To make the gun more friendly for my wife (total novice), I am opting for an integrated laser grip, great for people who have problems remembering to site, and even better in dim light when you can't see your sights.

[Dusty Miller]

One thing that absolutely does NOT sound like a really good self-defense firearm to me can be summed up in the phrase "single action revolver". But I'll tell ya, I keep hearing people say it over and over again. It don't make no sense to me.

[Quartus]

I have to wonder if the folks touting the SA revolver have ever run a serious combat course. Plinking on the range or out in the boonies is NOT the same thing.


Thing's NOT to have on a serious weapon?

Flashlights hanging off of it.

SA/DA trigger. Gimme one or the other for EVERY shot.

Chrome, nickel, SS, or other shiny surface. I learned this when I was a wee lad, playing cops & robbers. Got caught when the other kid peeked into the dark utility room where I was hiding. He was just about to leave when my shiny gun gave me away. :(

Sights that don't stay put!



BTW, those of you who insist on 100% reliabilty, please let me know when you find that universe. Meanwhile, I'll struggle along with learning to cope with something less, like it is here in THIS world.

[Landric]

I don't have a problem with safties, but if said weapon has a safety, I don't want it on the slide. I really don't want any controls on the slide, but I can live with a decocker only, like the G model Berettas

I really don't get why so many people don't like DA/SA operation, I don't find the switch to be a problem at all, and I think that the complaints about it are overblown, but that is my opinion, and I accept that others have different ones.

Left to my own devices, I go with a .45ACP for carry. The gun that meets my needs the best is the HK USP45 Compact, variant 3 (right hand decocker only). Slick slide, .45ACP, external hammer, no safety, DA/SA operation, and utter reliability. However, I would be happy carrying a Glock .45 or a SIG .45 also. I'm thinking about a Glock 36 for my next handgun.

I don't have a problem with the 9x19mm or the .40S&W, so long as I can pick the ammo (rather than having someone issue it to me). For the 9mm I like the 115, 124, and 127 grain JHPs at (+P+) velocities. My "car gun" is a Beretta 92D with Winchester Ranger 115 grain JHP(+P+). Again, note the slick slide. Its DAO, but has an excellent trigger and no safety.

For the .40S&W, I like the 155 and 165 grain JHPs at full velocity (no medium velocity 165 grain ammo for me). My current choice for my USP40 Compact is the Winchester Silvertip 155 grain JHP.

[RonS]

P38 style decocker / safety.
Itty bitty sights.
A trigger pull that is equal to or greater than the weight of an M1 Garand.(Unloaded, no sling or bayonet).
A grip that a Ransom Rest couldn't hold on to under recoil.
A reputation for unreliability, fragility or being a picky eater.
A stupid name, like Enforcer, Avenger, Mall Ninja Night Fighter etc.
UFNGR (Ugly For No Good Reason)

[RonS]

Close, but no cigar, off by one ounce.

Model: 145BP
Caliber: .45 ACP
Capacity: 10 +1
Barrel Length: 3-1/4"
Porting: No
Action: DAO
Finish: Blue
Grips: Checkered Polymer
Weight: 23 oz
Construction: Polymer/Steel
Frame: Medium
Front Sight: Fixed- 1 Dot
Rear Sight: Fixed- 2 Dots
Trigger Type: Smooth
Length: 6''
Width: 1.25"
Height: 5.125"
Rate of Twist: 1:16"
Grooves: 6
Safety: Manual Safety, Firing Pin Block, Trigger Block

[michael t]

No adjustable sights
No sticky grips
No laser or flashlight hanging on front
Not made of plastic
No FLGR
No porting

[litework]

Things I don’t want on a CCW gun:

I will not purchase a sub compact. The awkward grip and short barrel length offsets any perceived advantage in concealment in my opinion. When I buy a gun in a particular caliber, I tend to purchase bullets that are on the heavy end of the spectrum. Not too comfortable with short barrels in this situation.

I will purchase but will not carry a firearm that is DA/SA without being able to carry the gun cocked and locked.

I will purchase and carry but not carry IWB any Glock pistol if I cannot “see” the gun into its holster…no SOB holsters for my Glocks.

I don’t like magazine disconnects, either.

I don’t mind dull stainless steel guns. Depending on your background, a white gun might be just as hidden as a black one.

Mounted flashlights on bedside guns are okay in my book.

The gun cannot have a questionable reputation.

Almost forgot about porting...no porting!

[Malamute]

My .02

magazines
batteries
small calibers
guns that have to be cleaned often to work


OK, I have slightly different outlook. I live in rather rural Wyoming, so my definition of a "defensive" gun is colored by rattlesnakes, black and grizzly bears, mountain lions, rabid skunks etc, THEN bad people, in about that order. My preferences run along the lines of Single Action and Double Action revolvers. The reasons are as follows.

Reliable. For me this means cleaning about twice a year and still working ALL the time, even when carried a lot and shot a fair amount. This as well as caliber considerations leaves autos out of my plan. I like my 1911, but don't completely trust it, power or reliability wise. It's fun to shoot in "combat shoots" but I don't carry it for real. Also, I've shot game with the 45 auto and am somewhat underwhelmed by the results. Maybe I'm one of those befuddled, fuzzy headed types, but the single action revolver ALWAYS works, even when not cleaned for a year or more and carried daily. OK, so it's not the best chice for a "combat course", but I don't think a "combat course" reflects real life very well. It is an artificial course of fire, and is "scored" acording to the concept of the course designers (timers, boxes to stand in, shoot this one first, reload on the run, lots of rounds fired, etc). This is a recurring theme in the writings of several experienced shooters/combat survivors/ teachers. It's good "practice", but not reflective of real life shootings. Most "defensive" encounters are not protracted firefights, and running between cover etc. Perhaps for some LEO's but not for individuals. Reliable gun quickly and well applied, decisive hit(caliber wise and location wise), fight over.
I like the DA revolver very much, and like the greater speed of reloading and shooting over the SA, but due to a hand injury I can't shoot full power magnum loads from a DA, so the SA gets carried much more. I don't feel the slightest bit undergunned with a SA. I use the same gun for mountains and "town" defense.

Decisive caliber, 357 is considered a decent town gun in this area, but should be left at home when out in the mountains, 44 mag or 45 colt with 250 to 325 gr heavy loads is about right. Again, I use the same gun for mountains and town, so don't bother with taking a 357 out other than for fun shooting. 38 spl w/ cor-bon +P's in a 2" pocket gun is OK for times a normal gun can't be carried (the 640 gets cleaned about once or twice a year, and it ALWAYS works also).

I've carried pistols (I'm not PC, all handguns are pistols to me) pretty extensively for over 25 years, and shot a lot for more than that. I don't understand the sentiment that the Single Action revolver is worthless or somehow ineffective as a defensive gun, and then say they wish there was some gun that is 100% reliable, but they don't know of any. The SA is as close as I've ever seen to being 100% reliable. Reliability is at the top of my list, with decisive power close behind. If I'm ever assaulted by more than 5 or 6 bad guys at a time I'm sure I'll regret feeling well armed with one. If my hand was up to full magnum loads in the DA I'd pick that as my first choice. Autos just dont have the flexibility for my use. Did I mention I carry the same gun in the mountains and in town?

[Hard Ball]

Nothing with "Glock" stamped on the side.

[V-fib]

Since I carry a Revolver for CCW I wouldn’t like to have the following:
No exposed hammer
No rubber grips
No adjustable sights
No porting
:cool:

[Destro]

Anything with an alloy frane-only polymer guns I trust are Ruger & XD.
Anything made by companies with wildly varying quality control: Lorcin, Taurus, Glock, for example.
Adjustable sights-they could screw you up when you need 'em.

[shep854]

Chieftan6: Semper Fi, brother!

Regarding Mas Ayoob's articles on safties/disconnects, he has a standing request out for documented reports of LEOs who were shot because they couldn't disable their pistol's safety devices. Last I heard, he has not had a bite.

OTOH, the records are full of reports of officers killed by their own guns that didn't have some sort of separate safety to manipulate. This was primarily with revolvers.

Of course, as mentioned, a private citizen is in a far different situation, so the safety/disconnect issue is a personal preference.

[W Turner]

Crappy trigger, I can deal with heavy as long as its smooth

Crappy sights, functional and visible, nothing fancy

Painful to shoot, due to either recoil or design (i.e., GI hammer and safety on Gov't. Model)

Barrel length of greater 5" in semi's and 4" in revos, preferably less

.38/.380 or larger

Good availability of proven carry ammo

Must fit my hand (I have paws, as opposed to hands)

W

[Dave85]

All other preferences aside, I think a good rule of thumb for strong-side hip carry with any customary CCW rig, is:

If you have to raise your elbow above your shoulder-line to draw, your gun is too long.