Are all pepper sprays equal?

[Charlie Golf]

Anybody have a favorite?

[Derius_T]

TERMINATOR is a good spray. It is 13.3% by volume habanaro pepper spay mixed with military grade CSX tear gas. Beautiful combo...... :eek:

[alaric]

Fox 5.3 has a lot of supporters. Go to http://www.defensedevices.com

[Danindetroit]

Be very careful about pepper spray, and check your state's law on content, some contain CN, and pepper spray. I think in MI you are limited to only pepper, and 1/2% to 1 %. I have never looked it up but they issue pepper spray to Probation officers that is .5%. That's the wife got a .40.

[alaric]

Michigan allows 2% max concentration pepper (OC) spray. Fox 5.3 is legal in Michigan for us 'civilians'.

[Danindetroit]

Another chapter in the long list of how states don't care about LE emploees, until one dies.

Thank you for the info alric, I check out www.mi.gov for laws, is there a particular site or place where you get info, my wife does use a formulation that is fifferent from any of the other's that yo mention. She got it from www.galls.com, they have things for le, corrections,paramedic,firefighters, very neat site, and the mag has very good descriptions of products. TIA for any info.

[djw6611]

The two best sprays (in my opinion) are Fox Labs 5.3 and Sabre Red.

Percentage means nothing alone. You can have a 10% spray, but its 10% of what?

Fox Labs is only 2% but its 2% of pepper spray rated at 5.3 million SHUs

Sabre Red on the other hand is 10% of pepper spray rated at 2.0 million SHUs

In general higher percentages will work similiar to lower percentages for initial take down, only take longer to decontaminate.

Carry fox labs, you wont be disappointed. Just remember to replace at least once every 2 years (from date of purchase).

[Chieftan]

Charlie,

Stick with something that is 100% pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum) and stay away from combination sprays such as those with CS or CN.

DJW brings up some good points about percentages and there is no governing board that confirms these ratings.

I am an instructor-trainer in chemical restraint systems and have 24 years of law enforcement experience. I have been sprayed with a variety of mixtures and delivery systems and I didn't enjoy ANY of them.

You should also learn about decontamination procedures "just in case." I had more than one officer over the years whose kid or wife got hold of the spray and accidently hosed themselves down. BIG problem...especially if you don't know what to do.

Feel free to e-mail me if I can be of further assistance.

[Danindetroit]

Can I ask about the problems with cs or cn? TIA

[DT Guy]

It's not really that CN or CS have 'problems', per se----outside of the fact that a median lethal dosate does exist for them-----it's that when combined with OC you are simply complicating the clean-up procedures and, potentially, negating some of the effect of the OC.

I've been exposed on several occasions to OC, CN and CS. When OC is involved, you wouldn't want to 'dilute' it with anything else!


Just my .02,

Larry

[djw6611]

I agree with what DT said, adding "tear gas" (cn or cs), is not the best thing in a spray and likely doesnt make it anymore effective. It is more of a marketing gimick.

Tear gas is only an irritant, while OC (pepper spray) is an inflamatory. This means that tear gas will not work on a person who is on drugs or intoxicated because it relies soley on pain. Pepper spray should work to a certain degree on these individuals because the responce of the eyes (slamming shut) and the respatory system (coughing, choking) is involuntary.

The only two products I would trust which are a mix of pepper spray and tear gas are : "Freeze +P" and "Sabre".

But again, stick with either Fox Labs 5.3 or Sabre Red and you wont have any problems.

[Dusty Miller]

For a whole lot less money you can defend yourself with a spray bottle of ammonia.

[alaric]

is there a particular site or place where you get info

Try here (http://www.mgouc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7286)

[DT Guy]

The problem is that ammonia can cause permanent injury to the eyes, and thus requires a higher level of justification to use. I'd imagine a good attorney could make ammonia into the eyes into 'heinous battery' or somesuch...


Larry

[djw6611]

not too mention ammonia isnt even close to as effective as a quality spray like fox labs is......

if $15 for a can of spray is too much to spend for a less-than-lethal defense tool I think it is time to start looking for a new job........

[mvpel]

A survey of 878 uses of CAP-STUN brand 5.5% law-enforcement-only pepper spray uses by West Virginia State Police found that it was minimally effective, ineffective, or totally ineffective nearly a third of the time.

This is a good thing to bear in mind when considering the use of 2% pepper spray as a defensive tool.

[mvpel]

:::

[DT Guy]

ANY pepper spray can fail. I've personally emptied a 1.8 Oz can of 2million shu spray into a person's face (wearing glasses, but I was able to see it running through his eyes) and then saw the person drive off, completely unimpaired.

Found out later he had 100+ arrests.

ALWAYS be ready for ANYTHING (OC, baton, firearm, howitzer) to fail, and have a plan B at the ready.


Larry

[djw6611]

You said:

"A survey of 878 uses of CAP-STUN brand 5.5% law-enforcement-only pepper spray uses by West Virginia State Police found that it was minimally effective, ineffective, or totally ineffective nearly a third of the time.

This is a good thing to bear in mind when considering the use of 2% pepper spray as a defensive tool."

Cap-Stun is not a highly used spray anymore, at least not in my area. But again you are focusing too much on the percentages. I think Capstun is 5.5% of 500,000 SHU Spray. While Fox Labs is 2% of 5,300,000 SHU Spray. Notice the extreme differance in the SHU (overall heat level). Thats a difference of close to 5 million SHU.

Comparing pepper spray based on percentages alone is kind of like saying a 115 grain bullet is better than a 95 grain bullet. You have to ask yourself, 115 grain of what? JHP or FMJ? You see a 115 grain FMJ bullet may actually be less effective than a 95 grain JHP in terms of stopping power. The same holds true for OC Spray. A 10% 500,000 SHU spray may actually be less effective than a 2% 5,300,000 spray. See what I mean?

Also keep in mind that many police departments use 'weaker' sprays for a number of reasons:
1) Liability
2) Decon Time - Dont want to babysit a prisoner for 2 hours while they decon from the spray
3) For law enforcement, pepper spray is just one tool on the use-of-force spectrum. In other words if the spray fails, they can move up to say ASP baton strikes or deadly force if the situation warrents.

So when people say, this spray is law enforcement strength or something like that you know it is complete BS because as a whole police use weaker sprays. (at least thats how it is here in Rhode Island. An employee at a local police supply store told me that the only agency in RI that uses Sabre Red is the ACI (state prison) because it is "over kill")

The problem with the pepper spray industry is that it is highly unregulated. So people use a cheap spray and are disappointed with its results. Use sabre red of fox labs and you will probably get about 80% to 90% effectiveness if you land a good hit on their face. But like anything else you had better have a backup if it doesnt work or at least a good pair of running shoes ;)

[mvpel]

The problem with being disappointed with the results of your choice in pepper spray is that you might suddenly find yourself in deep doo-doo at that moment of discovery, having just ****** off your assailant even further.

[mikikanazawa]

When I was a kid I had a job policing brass at a shooting range near my house. On weekends they had self-defense courses, and the most popular was the "tear gas" course. It was an outdoor range, and due to the prevalent gusty winds of the city, I got decent facefuls of every major pepper/tear spray on the market. The one I most remember? "PUNCH." There is also "PUNCH II," but I don't know the chemistry difference aside from the II version being foamy.

[Tim R]

The biggest problem I've seen with pepper useage is everyone gets it. No matter how hard you try you still end up with a snoot full. If you have never been through being sprayed and you get some coming your way, do you know what it does to you?

Most people see themselves spraying and running....well Sir like I said, your'e going to be running with a strong possiblity taking some spray along with you.

[djw6611]

Good point. When I heard good things about fox labs I bought 2 cans. One to carry and one to practice with. I did this to become familiar with the spray pattern, amount of spray, and how it effects me.

Well needless to say I caught a good whiff of it while spraying it (in my enclosed garage, a windy condition could have been worse) and I damn near puked! (not joking). At least I know what it does to me when I accidentally inhale some over spray, although catching a hit to the face/eyes is a whole different story.

[Line Rider]

Freeze + P is all I carry.

[esldude]

I have heard from trainers, that dark skinned people like African Americans, Indians and Arabs etc. aren't nearly as effected by pepper spray as lighter skinned Caucasians and Hispanics? Anyone know if there is any truth to this.

[stevelyn]

Do not go by the % of OC in pepper sprays. What you need to be concerned with is the Scoville Heat Units or temperature of the spray for a lack of a better word.
A pepper spray product can contain 10% or more OC, but have only about 500,000 SHUs. A 2-5% spray OTOH can have 2,000,000 or more SHUs. The only thing the concentration of OC affects is the time required for decontamination.
Most pepper sprays from reputable manufacturers run in the 1.5 to 2 million SHU range. Punch II, BodyGuard OC10, CAP-STUN, and Saber are in the 2 million SHU range (as some others I can't think of right now). FOX 5.2 is 5.2 million SHUs and Vexor V7 is 15 million SHU.
Only problem is the weenies at Zarc who manfacture and market both Vexor and Cap-Stun refuse to sell it to anyone other than LE/GOVT agencies. :mad:

[AUG]

I have put devastator 10% on more than a few folks and it worked like a charm. I never gave the spray much thought when I was in uniform because what we used seemed to work pretty good.

When I was in the academy they put us in a tear gas tent and that sucked! They did not spray us in the face with the OC. For some reason they made us line up with our backs to the instructor and they sprayed the OC over our heads and let the stuff "fall" on us.

I never got the whole "needing to be sprayed" thing that some departments did. Hell I didn't have to get shot to know what a gun does to you!

[Danindetroit]

They do the same thing in the military, put a "tear gaa" canister in a 55 gal. drum, and march you around, and then try to put on your gas mask. At least when my father was in.

[goosevr1]

On the days I carry the spray, it's Bodyguard LE-10 in either Foam or Stream. 10% OC and 2 million SHU's I believe. Amazing stuff.

[PSE]

i only stock 1 pepperspray in the store.
FOX LABS.
everything else is horse pi$$.

[willfriedman956]

"I never got the whole "needing to be sprayed" thing that some departments did. Hell I didn't have to get shot to know what a gun does to you!"


Having been in LE for 11 years with 3 different agencies, I found it Ironic to be sprayed at the academy and then again at the department.

All of my defensive tactics instructors have told me that since the spray will more than likely be used more frequently than our service weapon, we need to be exposed to it. Both directly and indirectly. My current department prohibit's OC training with application and boy the instructors are not happy about it. But I have 3 certificates. Academy, Dept 1 & 2 showing that I have had application.

But contamination is the key. You spray a suspect you are responsible. You spray somebody and transport them you are bound to get some on you. Then... Poof. Major pain.....


Our stuff is 500,000 to 2 million SHU's and contains 5 to 10% Capsaicin. The burning agent.

:eek:

But the stuff is good. Not 100% effective, nothing is. But it sure beats fighting and wrestling with everybody.
:)

[WWSD_9305]

Being extremely familiar in OC deployment, I have been sprayed with, and consulted with longtime instructors of different types of OC, CN, and CS variations.

However, the one that I have found most effective, and have carried, and used for almost five years now, is the MK-4 ballistic stream from DEF-TEC.

I have seen it work on almost every person, (-1) and animal, (except badgers :D ) and have never had a problem. (Just don't spray it into a 30mph wind after a foot pursuit.)

Don't listen to all the talk about SHU's because it doesn't account for a whole lot. Its just mostly numbers so certain companies can entice you to buy their product. (Mine's Bigger Than Yours Theory :) )

The real general rule for OC is, "No Pain, No Gain". For the most part, your hoping on a physical reaction to the spray, as opposed to psychological. If they're too, "doped up", or drunk to feel pain, chances are, its just going to **** em off.

Personally, if your lookin for good sprays, stick with OC, (the ones that have food-grade ingrediants), and avoid the others with harsh chemicals. Easier decontamination if you have an "accidental emmission". :eek:

[Gomez]

Hmm. Bring up an two month old post to advertise for a company and touting the Def-Tec party line about 'food grade products' and 'ignoring those pesky SHUs'. Gotta luv it. :barf:

[partyguy816]

I've been looking at getting some spray, but I can't decide between the regular spray and the foam. What is the opinions of the foam?

[38splfan]

115 gr. JHP from a 3.5" barrel is the most effective spray I can think of.

[abelew]

Don't know much about the foam vs. the spray. Look at the concentration of OC in it. Some have very little, some have a lot. Buy one and try it out, so that you know whats going to happen when you spray it (not saying spray yourself, unless you really are a glutton for punishment).

[seb5]

I've been sprayed several times and have sprayed many folks over the course of 15 years. You can get fog, cone, straight stream, or foam. I've seen people wipe off the foam and throw it back at you. The fog is very easy to be downwind of. If you're inside it is great. The straight stream IMHO is the best if you're calm able to put it where you want it. For most purposes I prefer the cone shaped blast. I'm not even sure you can still but the fog. I think the cone replaced it. As far as brands I think the research has already been done. I don't see much difference. I'm issued defense technology in the 4 oz. but usually carry a 2 oz of a product called blue hades. I'll have to look to see who the maker is but it is the shiznet.

[patentnonsense]

In some states, BTW, it's legal to buy "bear repellant" sprays at concentrations which aren't legal for "personal defense" sprays - does anyone know if those are significantly better?

[partyguy816]

Thanks for the advise about the foam. I was told else where that they have seen them wipe the foam off and throw it back. So it's kinda funny you mentioned that. I ordered 2 cans, one stream in 4oz and fog in 2oz. both are fox.

[seb5]

Fox is good to go.

[Relayer]

I went into the military back in the day. Yes, they made sure you got a snoot full to give you confidence in your equipment (gas mask), and to put you in a situation where you masked up under somewhat "realistic" circumstances, ie all at once you're in a gassed location, and you hear "MASK!" and and you get that thing on and cleared in a damn big hurry while blowing snot, tears, and choking half to death. Ahh, good times :barf:

Probably somewhat similar reasons for getting the treatment in LE.

You don't want the first time you get hosed to be with your BG in your grill. I think it's a good idea, in moderation :)

Cheers!

[Ligament]

Vexor does sell to the public
http://www.vexor.com/index_consumer.html

However I'm not sure if it is EXACTLY the same as the Vexor V7 unit.

Best regards.

[ScoutinStAugustine]

"5% of 2,000,000 SHU Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) ...with ultraviolet dye for police identification for at least 24 hours"... issued to Florida Probation Officers. The better news is that I can also carry my HK USP 9C with Remington Golden Sabres. Hopefully I'll never have to use either.

[Cold Thunder]

The consumer version of the Vexor spray is exactly the same as the LEO version. The only difference is in the LEO version you have 1.0 oz. of spray, where as in the consumer version, you only get 0.75 oz. The vexor spray is very effective. In fact, I thought that the Cap-stun spray (also maufactured by Zarc) was very effective as well. Have had nothing but good results with both. :)

[djw6611]

Wow only .75oz? I was thinking of ordering a can but that is kind of small. I have a feeling they made that so because in New Jersy the maximum size of OC for civilians is .75oz and they probably wanted to sell to as many states as possible. Oh well.

BTW how much different is the Vexor formula from the cap-stun?

[Jamesmark72]

The Vexor is 15 million SHU before they mix it. They even say on their site that the SHU is meaningless. Fox does pretty good but if your using stream it takes awhile for it to do any good on someone wearing glasses. I use to sell nothing but Fox although i've tried many, if not all brands. I had a few friends wear safety glasses and hold their breath and close their eyes to try to find a stream that would work as i got tired of the blowback from oc cone and foggers. The Fox would burn their face and take about 45 seconds to shut their eyes. I also tried DPS. Most of you probably never heard of it, but it's got almost twice as much pepper in it as Fox and the the Carrier is Perchlorethyene-it opens up the pores and breaks down the oils of the skin. It had about the same results although testers did say it was a little hotter and took alot longer to decontaminate them. I also tried V4"s Shotgun Stream by ETGI. It starts out as a stream and at about 6ft starts to spread apart into a shotgun splatter, At about 15-20ft it covers an area about 2ft across. Every tester said immediately they couldnt breathe and couldnt open their eyes and asked if they could have rushed me they said their was no way. The weird thing was they all also said it was much more intense than even the Vexor which i've tried in the past and this company claims only 1 million SHU. I also testify to this as i try it on my arms and count the seconds it takes to work and intensity and the V4 is absolute instant burning with the Fox and DPS coming in a tie for 2nd taking about 15 seconds. Another awsome thing is, this stuff is a real confidence builder, not only because it works but because of almost no blowback unless there's some serious wind and because every bottle i have tried has sprayed head on of at least 23ft and just under 35ft if arching the bottle.

[dawg23]

Quote from Jamesmark72: "The Vexor is 15 million SHU before they mix it. They even say on their site that the SHU is meaningless."

Where on their website do they say SHU's are meaningless ??

[John Ringo]

I carry Fox 5.3 everywhere I go.

[Jamesmark72]

http://www.zarc.com/english/other_sprays/oc_strength/hotness_test.html

[rapier144]

All i carry is sabre used it alot works for 4 and 2 legged animals. sprayed neighbors two pits that was fighting broke them right up they didnt like it one bit

[Ron R.]

The Shotgun Stream product sounds interesting. Where can you get it. It doesn't look like ETGI sells it on their website or maybe you just need to call them.

[Jamesmark72]

Im ordering some more this week so i should have it by next Monday or so.

[too many choices!?]

1. I pull my .40,or greater firearm, and the B/G runs away screaming like a little girl. This is of course dependant on the B/G choosing self preservation as a way of life:D
.
2. I pull my back up 15round(or ten rounds for the Taurus) extra mag, and either A) Tell B/G to ,"stop!! I am armed!!", while showing the extra mag...Not deadly force and not breaking concealed carry laws, because a magazine is not a firearm; or B) If that does not hault the attack, I throw said extra magazine at the B/G, and hope it nocks him out, and if it doesn't, hope he don't have the compatible firearm:eek: :D :o

PS-If number 2 fails, see number 1:) .

[roy reali]

There is a spray that is not pepper based, it is called DirectStop. It is a citronella spray. It is totally useless against human targets but very effective against dogs. They can not stand the smell.

Shortly after I bought some I was talking my dog for a walk to our local park. There are always stray dogs around here. But this is a very urban setting, firearms are not the way to go.

Any way, about half way to the park two dogs approached us. One was a small terrier one was a large German Shepard. They were both looking to attack my dog. I pulled out the spray and said a prayer. I was hoping it worked. I aimed it at the the shepard and fired a burst. That dog turned around a took off as though it was scalded by boiling water. The little dog realized his big buddy wasn't around and followed him away.

This is a good defense against dogs.

[Mikeyboy]

Less than lethal...A good kick in the sack is always a winner. I don't like pepperspray because it can get all over the place including yourself, in a fight (personal experience). Would you use a handgun if the bullet could blow back at you in a strong wind. I think it only works well in law enforcement. What about a stun gun or a taser.