Criminal Taser use. How to defend?

[U.F.O.]

This tactics forum deals with a lot of strange situations, here's one that IMO will be one to contend with going forward.

You're accosted by BG's who pull a weapon on you. Not a gun, knife, club or anything lethal, but a Taser, capable of shooting some 15 odd feet and totally incapacitating you. What degree of responsive force would you be justified in using?

I think robbers are going to use Tasers as a stun and run product and how to deal with them could be problematic. My guess.....even though the actual event of being shot with a Taser may not be deemed as lethal right now, the fact that the weapon can totally disable you makes you vulnerable to death or bodily harm and justifies you to use the same type responsive tactics as you would when defending against a knife or gun. Just MHO.

U.F.O.

[mvpel]

The "air cartrige" for the Taser, which has the darts that shoot up to 21 feet with a burst of compressed nitrogen, contains little circles of colored confetti on which are printed a unique serial number for that cartrige, which can be traced back to the original purchaser, and they cost $30 each and can't be re-used.

And stun guns are already in use by criminals:

http://www.lapdonline.org/releases/1999/99_04/noe1.htm

http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0300southwark/page.cfm?objectid=12914065&method=full&siteid=50100

http://www.thisisbexley.co.uk/archive/display.var.605364.0.0.html

[U.F.O.]

Interesting. Once again begs the question, "Would one be justified in using lethal force to defend against Taser attack?"

U.F.O.

[Danindetroit]

I think finding a few cases where a person, was hospitalized, killed, or maimed, would help to sort it out, because you can tell, and show the police, that you had feared for your life. I am not sure how incapacitating a stun gun is, but if it makes you fall, you always have the chance to hit your head, always a danger when head trauma is involved. If it is the type mvpel mentions, the demos, I have seen, usually employ a large cushion, and 2 people to catch the person. A jolt to the heart of people of any age, can kill them. I wonder if it is labelled a less than lethal weapon, like the weapon that killed that girl at the base ball game.

With all that said, I would shoot if I was armed, and worry about consequences later. A situation of of being basically paralyzed around a BG, is worse, than an encounter with multiple BG's unarmed, to me.

[U.F.O.]

I agree Dan, but someone shooting a crook with a Taser most certainly will end up being in an interesting test case one day. A court decision that Taser does not constitute a direct threat to life or limb and therefore deadly force is unjustified would open the door to acceptable forms of violence against the public. Which is quite unacceptable.

U.F.O.

[Chip Dixon]

How would I know it was a taser, and not a gun?
Kids have been shot for pulling squirt guns on cops before.

I'd say shoot first, ask "is that a taser" later.
With the plethora of ugly, plastic looking guns (like glocks) on the market it would be easy to say you thought it was a gun.
The dead BGs buddies would learn don't bring a taser to a gunfight.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

If I had a gun with me, I'd treat him just like he had a gun too, for the following reason:

He's got a ranged weapon which will incapacitate me if used, leaving me susceptible to whatever he wants to do. This includes theft, abuse, and the possibility of him stealing my gun and using it on someone.

Unless there's some really good reason to think otherwise, I'd assume a BG with a taser to be life-threatening in that he could take my own arm and shoot me once I've been zapped.

[U.F.O.]

"The dead BGs buddies would learn don't bring a taser to a gunfight."

LOL!

U.F.O.

[Danindetroit]

The BG with the air taser, seems like being tasered, is enough to possibly kill, or greatly injure you from the fall, if you manage to get an arm out, to break you fall, the likelyhood of a broken arm, the telescoping kind is highly probable,2 of my relatives, under age 50 have fallen, and had such a fracture, it never completely heals, and they most use hardware, and surgery to repair.

The fact that in about 1 min, you could be trussed up, and kidnapped, is a likely scenario, taking people to atm's to get money seems very common. I understand your concerns, but if the BG brought the taser, to lessen a charge if caught, or it is easier to obtain, means the BG is thinking, and keeping a witness healthy, is his biggest problem. It is a dilemma, but I guess the phrase, tried by 12, or carried by 6 applies.

[mvpel]

I am not sure how incapacitating a stun gun is, but if it makes you fall ...

I saw a Taser demoed on a couple of new police recruits.

Two successfully attached Taser terminals, anywhere on the body, will put you down in a blink of an eye. It is completely incapacitating, but the effects are instantly gone when the current is switched off. The standard cycle time is five seconds.

I could certainly see deadly force as an option - if a robber is going to incapacitate you, whether by tying you up or zapping you with a Taser, then you would certainly be in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, and I think any jury would recognize that.

[PsychoSword]

Would lethal force be justified? Of course it would.

Not to mention with these Tasers....how many people a week are dieing from these things lately?

[abelew]

Cops shot a suspect with said tazer, and suspect died. Now, I dont know the details, but the mear fact that one used by people trained in its use accidentally killed someone with one would make it a "less lethal" (I use this, because it is still potentially lethal). Knives can be looked at as "less lethal" because one has to cause trauma to actually kill with them......a shot the head with a taser could be looked at the same way......I would shoot without question, and bring up the previously mentioned occurence to back up the validity of my self defence claim. As well as being incapacitated...etc

[NSO_w/_SIG]

If you are standing with a gun drawn at someone with a Taser gun pointed at you then you have to treat him as he as a "real gun" too, because if he hits you with that Taser then he has access to your gun and can do anything to you that he wants. "Don't bring a taser to a gun fight" is funny but it is also very true. Anyone that attempts to use a taser gun on me when I am drawn on them they will wish they hadn't

[Dave R]

My guess...

If a victim shot a perpetrator who was found to be armed with a Taser...

-In MA, the victim would be prosecuted as a murderer.
-In MT, no charges would be filed against the victim.
-In rural TX, the victim would be hailed as a hero.
-In Austin, TX, not so sure.

[DT Guy]

There are case law precedents where police officers have had to shoot unarmed (or 'underarmed') offenders solely because they feared losing control of their sidearm and thus arming the offender.

Keep in mind, also, that a fall from 5'6" onto concrete can decelerate the brain with a force above 300 g's, the threshold of permanent injury or death. FALLING from the tasing can kill you if you're on pavement...that's deadly force.


Larry

[Wynterbourne]

In my neck of the woods, the officers are trained that lethal force is acceptible if the target is carrying an air taser. The reasoning is that, while it is a less than lethal weapon, it will allow the target to incapacitate the officer, gaining control of that officer's weapon.

[U.F.O.]

Thx. everyone for the excellent opinion and commentary. Bottom line.....anyone tries to assault you with a taser a maximum response is warranted.

U.F.O.

[Lawyer Daggit]

There have been cases where people have died following the use of the Taser.

Critical question is that the question of your state of mind - subjective test- is the issue-WERE YOU in fear of your life- it is not an objective test.

Other issues also play a part- how they are dressed- how they behave- do they appear calm-or agitated- time of day- are wife / kids with you with resultant concern for their safety.

[yorec]

I treat any less than lethal attempt to control me the same way, whether OC pepper spray, taser, stun gun, or animal tranqualizer darts. Return fire with as many rounds as it takes to stop the attacker. I won't stand still to see what he'll do with a better weapn - my firearm.

[LAK]

I would consider anyone with a "tazer" or other stun device intended to render me incapable of normal function and "at their mercy" a threat to my life - and would treat them accordingly.

[Danindetroit]

mvpel, can the taser once attaced, and discharged, can you press the trigger again, and rezap, for five seconds? This is from memory, I thought, that it can zap ultiple people wuo are hodling hands, making a circuit, but the way it was supposed to be used by LE, was an officer tases? a subject, stands back, and other officers can touch the subject, applying restraints, and not get zapped, letting the officer with the device, apply an extra jolt if needed to further restrain the subject. This is from memory, and could be wrong. It seems then that a person holding the unit could zap you repeatedly, while applying heavy plastic wire zip clips, used to tie up wire bundles.

[Roadkill Coyote]

Danindetroit,

Your understanding is correct. The Taser can be reactivated, triggering another five second cycle. (with the latest generation the trigger can just be held down to continue the cycle as well). With regards to hands on during a cycle, if you get a hand on, or directly between the probes you can get a shock, but other than that you can touch the subject. The biggest problem with cuffing while the Taser is being applied is that the muscle contraction caused by the Taser gets in the way sometimes (and then again, sometimes it doesn't). Confronted by a criminal with a Taser, you must assume that he or she has the capacity to incapacitate you, and gain control of whatever you may be carrying. Take appropriate action immediately.

[Tom2]

Of course, someone would point out that the taser has a limited range, and your gun vastly greater, so they would probably make you somehow prove you were within the range of the thing instead of 50 feet away, if they wanted to give you a hard time. I don't know how forensics can prove that you were within range of the taser unless you were close enough to leave particle or powder residue when you fired? Not that I disagree with the use of force against the taser, some creep will probably think of this loophole if they want to hang you.

[Derius_T]

If I am not mistaken, the taser used by the police has a maximum range of 21 feet. Consequently, the maximum range for justified self defense purposes in most instances is also 21 feet. So if BG is in range to use taser, he is inside the range deemed acceptable by law to use deadly force against him in most cases.

In my case, I have documented heart problems, so I am of the full belief that a taser would most likely kill me as certainly as a gun. So if I get to my gun first, I would protect myself from what I feel would be almost certain death.

[seb5]

I have taken the full 5 second ride fo cert. purposes of "Edisons Medicine". It is much more incapacitating than OC for a short time. I can't even begin to describe the level of pain. If a thug tried to hit me with a taser he would get shot. The range taught is indeed 21 feet. Keep in mind that's manufacturer reccommendations for a good hit. It will indeed reach out a little further before coming to the end of the wire leads.

[Igloodude]

This is a related question as I think the same answer applies to both, but - you are justified in using deadly force to avoid being overpowered (in, say, a kidnapping) even if your life is not directly/immediately threatened, right?

[Rich Lucibella]

Rob Pincus, TFL Staff, took a full Taser hit for a write up in SWAT a while back. This is what it looks like under controlled conditions, with assistance.

http://swatmag.com/misc/mov/Taser.MPG

Rich

[Model520Fan]

No-brainer. Shoot him until he can't use the Taser. Tell the police NOTHING EXCEPT "I FEARED FOR MY LIFE." Discuss with your lawyer how to articulate your fear for your life, with the assistance of the posts above.

The issue is NOT shoot/don't shoot. We ALL know the answer is "shoot." The issue is how to present your case, which is to say, how to present what you will represent as your state of mind. This should be done with the assistance of a lawyer competent in such cases.