Is anatomy taught in handgun SD classes?

[Danindetroit]

It seems that hunters, know where to shoot game, to kill it rather effectively. It seems that people who are learning to shoot tactically, or just want to realise the full potential of their weapon, should learn human anatomy, so that they can effectively stop someone, without having to discharge a whole mag. Head shots, are nice on paper targets at 25 yards, and probably help, in accuracy for getting the feel of point and shoot, at 7 yards. It just seems that knowing where organs, and nerve clusters, on the human body are would help. Instead of 3 rounds, for 3 different BGs, it seems that shooting each one once with a possibly deady, but a 98% incapacitating shot, is better, it just seems like the last guy, has time to line you up. If this is covered, in classes, just say so or close the thread. I have had a lot of anatomy classes. It may be for the same reason that sniper training was always shut down after wwI, WWII, and korea, the fact that hunting, or deliberatly trying to kill or serious incapacitate a person is not a pretty thing. It just seems that it needs to be brought out into the open, for people who have to deal with violent offenders.

[Shorts]

Not a clue if anatomy is taught in SD classes, but like you I have hads tons of A&P. I'm a health and fitness major so that's all I studied. Going back to your question though, why would you need to get more in depth than center mass? I mean, isn't that why the targets are drawn like they are. The trunk of a person contains everything except the head. And even at that, a SC injury is more incapacitating than a head wound, and has a better chance at being injured by a center mass shot. The bones and harder structures will effectively ricochet bullets and take some good soft tissue shots. And definitely a center mass shot is a higher percentage shot than the head or leg, especially when there is a high adrenaline situation with lots of movement.

I know there are some SD classes that are geared towards close combat pistol situations, some knife and bare hand fightin. I'm sure those get pretty specific as to what areas of the body are most succeptible to injury. I guess it's just a matter of what type of classes you're taking that regulates how detailed the attack should get.

[Danindetroit]

How do you kill a BG with Body armor with center mass shots? Most center mass shot have to pass through the ribs. Many bullfighters die from being gored in the femoral artery. A .380 and centermass shots on a man who weighs 300#, just might not work. 2 shots to each leg, and his femoral arteries are severed, and maybe his sciatic nerve is bruised long enough for him to roll around until dead. This might not work on every body. It just seems that the more knowledge a person has, the better able they are to pick targets of oppurtunity, not having to wait for a perfect shot, but one that will slow the attacker so somebody can aim better. They might already teach this, I am not sure, I just wondered. It seems when something goes wrong and it is news, it is blamed on the guns, sometimes true sometimes just a scapegoat. Tactics seem to win fights, not calibers. I remember seeing an edition of G&A, and it had a guide on shot selection on deer. It just seems reasonable for people.

[John Ringo]

They usually tell people to aim for center body mass. They often discourage head-shots because there is a high-percentage of the public that would miss. I won't go into a lot of detail about this right now, but I will say that any education is better than no education.

[dawg23]

Run a search on "Doc Gunn."

Doc (real name Tony) conducts training, often with John Farnam, to cover exactly the stuff Dan has asked about. Doc is a trauma surgeon and a very skilled shooter.

I attended his lecture at Rangemaster's Winter Tactical Conference in Memphis earlier this year. Doc discussed in detail where to aim and where not to aim. He also gives a lot of good info on which cartridges to use for SD.

Tony also conducts a workshop on treating gunshot wounds - missed that class.

[brickeyee]

Failure to Stop Drill
2 shots center of mass, follow with cranio-ocular (head).
Repeat as required.

[Phil306]

Dawg23, question for you:

What was the doctor's view on pelvic girdle shots? Lots of arguing about this one...

[Shorts]

How do you kill a BG with Body armor with center mass shots? Most center mass shot have to pass through the ribs. Many bullfighters die from being gored in the femoral artery. A .380 and centermass shots on a man who weighs 300#, just might not work. 2 shots to each leg, and his femoral arteries are severed, and maybe his sciatic nerve is bruised long enough for him to roll around until dead. This might not work on every body. It just seems that the more knowledge a person has, the better able they are to pick targets of oppurtunity, not having to wait for a perfect shot, but one that will slow the attacker so somebody can aim better. They might already teach this, I am not sure, I just wondered. It seems when something goes wrong and it is news, it is blamed on the guns, sometimes true sometimes just a scapegoat. Tactics seem to win fights, not calibers. I remember seeing an edition of G&A, and it had a guide on shot selection on deer. It just seems reasonable for people.

Well sure, if he has body armor on you have to find an uncovered spot, but you said nothing about that in your original post. So, I was inclined to believe you were talking about body shots in general (you mentioned deer, do they wear body armor?). There are always going to be a million "what-ifs". The point is that in general you should always take the higher percentage shots.

If you shoot the BG and he doesn't go down, hopefully you stopped his forward movement, at lthe least slowed him down so that you can take a good shot at his knees or head.

And I'll quote you "tactics seem to win fights, not calibers", so no need to pick on the .380 is there? ;)

[Dwight55]

For me, the whole question comes down to one practical question: what are we here for?

If we have unholstered, aimed, taken off the safety, and are now squeezing the trigger: we should have arrived here only because we are in mortal fear of our lives, the lives of someone nearby, or the threat of serious bodily harm.

That said, . . . we are not here to do anything less than stop the threat from the BG, . . . and our chosen means to stop him/her is a firearm.

Yes, we can weigh the pros and cons of this shot, that shot, the other shot: but the bottom line has to be "center of mass" until threat is eliminated. Leg shots, hip shots, head shots, arm shots, "shoot the gun out of his hand" shots, . . . all are shots of a far less percentage of "effective hit" than is the center of mass.

We generally think in terms of the 6ft 4in, 270 lb bg, on drugs, spaced out, defiant, etc. Change that line of thinking to a 15 year old girl, 4ft 9in, 85 lb bg, . . . shooting up the place, . . . I don't know anyone I would trust to anything other than a center of mass shot.

My choice for that is a 1911, .45 ACP, presently with 240 grain FMJ, 8 rounds. Once I have commenced firing, there simply is no man alive, with any type of body armor available that can march through that hail of fire and expect to harm me. True, . . . he may have accomplices that may, . . . he may get a lucky shot in, . . . things can happen.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that in the norm, in the general scheme of "most usual" the perp will not be wearing any type of body armor and the first two (I will not stop with one, . . . my training has always been two to start with) I hit him/her with, . . . will end their beligerance.

My final point is one I and others have made time and time again, . . . and will continue to do so, . . . in the end, you will do what your training has prepared you to do. If in your training scenarios, . . . you take the time to analyze, decipher, cogitate, . . . when the stuff hits the fan, you will do it then also. On the other hand, . . . if your training has you doing one set of specific tasks in a specific order, . . . you can stop it at any time, . . . but you will not be hampered by the thought processes of "hey coach, what do we do now?"

May God bless,
Dwight

[Danindetroit]

How do you know when somebody has body armor on? Is it after you are going for a reload, and they are drawing down on you? In hunting, most times if you go out with someone who is very experienced, they can tell you where to aim if it is not a perfect broadside shot. I would pass and let them take the shot. BG don't always give you a perfect shot, and you might not have anybody around, to tell you where to aim. I wondered about training classes.

This was meant to be a question to people who had attended training classes. A bullet into body armor, knocks down almost nobody. The bullet doesn't have enough energy. I rarely believe a person stands straight up, and with their chest readily exposed, asking to be shot, I might be wrong. I do not do most things the "correct" way. I shoot one-handed, turned side-ways to the target, all the way up to 44 mag.

In all my posts, I have stated carry the gun you are comfortable with. One of The first pistols I shot was a walther ppk/s .380, that my dad got in the 60's or 70's after he was robbed/kiddnapped. It is a very good gun. I did not disparage the caliber, but the tactics that might be used against a large person. I never asked if he had to use it, as it took the family almost 5? years to sell the bar, after that incident. I did not ask if he had a license to carry it either, as most city residents, were trying to probably be disarmed after the riots.

Their are always going to be a million what-ifs, and I shoot, 1 shot, left of center, to the belt line, another shot, at about the diaphram, and 1 in the upper chest, with my wife's G-27, all left of center, missing most of the spine, hoping to hit the aorta, with ranger "t" series, this round might hit some nerves. The spine is very well protected from the front, by the vertabrae body, I figure that disrupting the nerve roots is easier, where they come out of protection of the spine. Instead of fighting the muzzle lift I just try to keep the gun from moving side to side. The gun has trijicons, and I am thinking of getting the xs express sights, it is her decision, and I am hopin to find a gun for her to shoot with them. She shoots how she wants to shoot, she has more training than I do. In a mini glock, anything over 15 yds. and you should have got a medium glock, or get out. I am not disparaging glocks, but the tactics. I do not carry a gun, or plan to. I am either going to bluff the person, or get them into range or my hands, or my pocket knife.

[Shorts]

I don't know Dan, when do you know when he has body armor on? True, they don't always give you a perfect shot. That's why you have to take what is available, and that spot may not be the most devastating shot to an artery or big nerve. What if all you get is a deltoid, are you going to pass that up because there are no major life-sustaining organs contained in a delt? You are not hunting, you don't have time to think and analyze every possible shot. You have to react. You are trying to get out of or stop a fully escalated situation as quick as possible. A bullet into body armor may not knock a person down, but it is felt. And several blows may be just enough to stun him/her so you can get a "perfect" shot. And it may also be enough to give you time to get out and away.

I don't shoot "correct" either. I too shoot one-handed. I am one-handed. I don't do anything "correct" anymore.

I think we are saying the same thing. That you want the best possible bang for your buck. Shoot where you want. The way a person trains is the way they will perform during the crunch. If you can hit where you aim, that's good. That's the point.

Sorry if you felt I interefered on your post here about SD classes. Although I have not taken any, there is some common sense involved. I don't think my input is any less relevant since my "credentials" are less than others. Happy shooting.

[sm]

Even before I took Anatomy and Physiology , I observed game kills. My mentors and elders had me look up the human Anatomy in a encylopedia.

I get older and find myself passing on what passed to me. I took from their teachings [ methods] and made copies for students of the human anatomy I was teaching, not only for firearms, but for the simple sake of knowing what to go for on an attacker, and what to protect on themselves.

I dunno, made sense to me. I kinda figure there is more to this whole bit about personal responsiblity - than firearms.

I use the stuff I have learned in living 49 yrs, what subjects I took in various education levels and areas and apply to Personal Protection - myself and others.

Not long ago I used what learned in Psych course for medical students to note the person in my truck bed was most likely Schizophrenic. Situation handled, nobody got hurt, no po-po called. Family member came and picked up the person, said person went to hospital to get meds straigtened out.

The correct answer: " I know the voices are real to you, I'm sorry , NO I don't hear them".

Firearms are great tools for self defense, just one tool though, the brain is the biggest tool we have...then again a good pair of shoes ain't bad either.

[Danindetroit]

Your opinon and credentials are as valid as anybody's on this board, bottom line. We are probably saying the same thing, but people being trained are they getting certain info? I do post in a style that can be rude. The weather is changing and now it is getting warm in MI, my back is killing me, even with taking all my meds. I think the fact that you thought I disparaged a cartridge, that may have saved my father's life, bothered me, but that is my problem, and i did not mean to make it yours. I can't shoot, I barely leave my house, my back is that bad, I also have SI joint disease, and know how painful, just swelling, and a loss of a mm of joint space, can effect the sciatic nerve, in the pelvic region. So I may have to get my illieum bolted to my sacrum on both sides. After my next surgey, that will bring the amount of bolts larger than 1/4" in my body up to 16. I am thinking a .380 in this region of the body will put a person on the ground. Not dead, just wishing they were.

I do not feel you interfered, I did not know if you had taken a SD class, like from Louis awerbuck(SP?), I think you pointed out some of the flaws in my first question. I was wondering if people like this, or people just teaching combat skills, taught anatomy. It seems that a lecture on shot placement, should be taught. I guess SM teaches it. I believe the deltoid, has a large artery, at the front, and a nerve that runs behind the muscle. People who get Biceps tendonoitis, have that nerve impinged I thought. I have heard of people getting cortisone shots in the shoulder, and it injures a nerve. I cut the inside of my arm very badly when I was a kid, it was a large deep wound. The Dr. lectured me about how close I came to severing a nerve that would have seriously diminshed my arm strength, at the best, and paralyzed my hand at the worst. A deltoid shot can be a good shot. It can injure a BG, it might make their arm useless for many reasons, and the shot may hit a bone and ricochet right into the heart. I believe Pres Reagan, was shot in the armpit with a .22lr that almost killed him. I wonder if that was a lucky shot, or a planned shot?

As for the bullet proof vest, I am going by LE stories from people my wife knows. Since I do not carry it is a non-issue to me since my SD measures, include other plans. A vest doen't block a push, a left jab, or a right hook, and if it gets that far, I am hoping the adrenaline blocks out my back pain long enough, it worked when my dog was injured at a park, I was up and out of my chair and had my knife out before I knew it. I know if somebody comes in my house, they are getting #4 pellets in the legs first, and after that buck, until they stop moving.

[LAK]

Certainly there are many people who are going to start and finish with a handgun as far as any level of training, and there are those whose physical limitations might seem to preclude any other alternatives. But it is a well known fact that handguns are not without limitations and are poor stoppers - regardless of the bore size and bullet type. And I think it is misleading to instruct people with handguns and leave them with the belief that their handgun throwing the biggest meanest bullets around are going to stop any human monster that comes their way. It is useful to know that, like an animal such as a deer, a human being is potentially conscious and physically capable for ten to fifteen seconds or more even with their heart shot through. Alot can happen in ten seconds. In the case of merely aerated lung tissue the time frame might be considerably longer.

So it is benenficial to everyone without any serious physical limitations to consider the handgun as a part of their self defense, and should it prove insufficient they be prepared to fight on by any means they can. Even if no formal training or discipline of unarmed self defense be taken, knowing where the vulnerable parts are, and why, is a start. Along with the fighting mindset, it is the basis for a fighting chance.

In a hands on life and death struggle, for example, one or more hard blows to the throat at the larynx can be a fightstopper - even if temporary. One does not need to necessarily attend a formal martial arts course to learn some basic striking points and their potential affect on a target. Should the need arise, the target can be struck with the implement at hand - or the hand, wrist, elbow, forearm as opportunity presents.

I consider shooting (outside of hunting) to be a form of the martial arts, since the martial arts are by nature forms of combat with and/or without weapons (dedicated or improvised).

The pelvic girdle is mentioned by phil306; I am not a doctor, but I do know from training and study that the pelvis is a largish target, that a solid hit with the right bullet might well take a target subject off his or her feet. It does not however necessarily incapacitate the upper body. So your antagonist might still be able to do you harm; if they are within contact distance with bare hands or weapon, or firearm at greater distances.

That doesn't negate it as a useful target area since a subject not armed with a firearm might be effectively stopped if shooting elsewhere is obviously not having the desired effect. It is another example of the potential usefulness of such knowledge.

I think the idea of hitting a target with a handgun as obscure as the femoral artery is bordering on wishful thinking, but the anatomical knowledge is certainly relevent to the overall art of fighting when other weapons might be employed, like a knife for example.

Shooting center mass is generally taught in the context of the upper torso since in the center lies the vitals of the cardiovascular system. But this is not universal; consider Bill Jordan who preferred point of aim was the center waistline - the "beltbuckle". This has merit too, since this is roughly center in the body, and an arguement can be made that a solid hit or two (or more) in this area will take the fight ought of most people. It also gives considerable margin for error in elevation, since low is the pelvic area, higher is the chest area, and running through the center is the spine.

I think there is great merit to learning the topic knowledge, even if strictly in the realm of defensive shooting. But shooting a handgun (or long gun) is only one particular method and tool in the realm of self defense.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sadly, anatomy is not taught in a lot of self defense classes for handguns or for rifles. Why? Many reasons. As already noted, more often than not the focus is on making center of mass shots, only people say COM, but they mean COC, center of chest. There is a difference and it is about 3-6" where COC is higher than COM.

Why don't they teach anatomy. For one thing, too many gun instructors don't know anatomy. A Defensive Handgun 1 class I took in north Texas did include anatomy. We were told that heart shots, the ideal chest shot, need to impact to the LEFT of the bad guy's sternum, you know, where you place your hand when you say the Pledge of Allegiance. The problem is, the heart is not located there . It is pretty much located in the very center of the chest with parts present behind, and to both the left and right of the sternum.

Hunters get anatomy and are told where to shoot. Note that hunters are generally not making split second decision life or death shots while under attack. They get the luxury of time to line up their shots, wait for the best aspect of the target to be presented, and then they can take their shots. And while hunters need to be safe, they usually are not hunting in mall parking lots or in the local convenience stores where there is considerable danger to bystanders.

Along the same lines as COM shots, many instructors talk about "head" shots. This is way too vague of a description and shots to the head are often far from lethal or far from causing stops. Why? Because the face makes up a great portion of the head and you can do a lot of damage to the face without producing a stop. "Head" shots need to be categorized as catastrophic cerebral, brainstem, or high spinal cord shots. Bullets need to damage those areas, either directly via penetration or through blunt force trauma, and do significant damage. Here, 'significant' may not be a lot or may need to be a lot depending on many factors. Basically, significant means that you have to shut down the proper workings of those areas to carry brain signals.

There was a program on SEALs on one of the educational networks and the seal being interviewed was queried about the little 9mm pistols they carried. He assured the audience that you won't consider it a little caliber when he puts two shots through your heart and one through your head. Of course, that was the typical Mozambique drill and it got me to thinking...why was the oh-so-great precision shooting SEAL wasting that much ammo? Simple, they can't be certain that handgun calibers will perform in the body as needed. "Heart" shots may be deflected and never hit the heart. Head shots may never damage the CNS unless they get proper penetration of the necessary areas. On top of that, while SEALs may be good shots, they are not 100% as implied by the guy.

[Chuck Jennings]

Any classes that I have taken have concentrated on this COM dictate. Putting multiple rounds in the COM gives a great probability of hitting something that will cease the threat posed by your opponent. If multiple holes in the COM is ineffective, a headhot is advised. I believe that the COM is the best way to go when you experience the adrenaline dump that you will get. The anatomy knowlege is interesting, but not terribly useful in a stressful situation where your accuracy will in all likelyhood, not be good enough to single out specific arteries or nerves.

Their are always going to be a million what-ifs, and I shoot, 1 shot, left of center, to the belt line, another shot, at about the diaphram, and 1 in the upper chest, with my wife's G-27, all left of center, missing most of the spine, hoping to hit the aorta, with ranger "t" series, this round might hit some nerves. The spine is very well protected from the front, by the vertabrae body, I figure that disrupting the nerve roots is easier, where they come out of protection of the spine. Instead of fighting the muzzle lift I just try to keep the gun from moving side to side.

In the heat of the moment, it is unlikely that many will be able to make these kinds of decisions or be capable of such coherent thought while engaging a dynamic, moving target that is fighting back.

[carebear]

I practice for accuracy not so much that I can pick my shot on the target, but rather that I can hit whatever part of the target is exposed to me. If it goes beyond the guy standing square in front of me then I'll be probably be shooting from cover at whatever is exposed behind his cover.

I do like Awerbuck for his insistence on moving (when possible) to get a deeply penetrating shot rather than a skipping shot, but barring that, I want to be able to hit the foot if that's all I can see (for example).

I want to do whatever damage I can until the threat is done. If that means he has holes in his foot, knee and elbow, so be it.

[Danindetroit]

Their are always going to be a million what-ifs, and I shoot, 1 shot, left of center, to the belt line, another shot, at about the diaphram, and 1 in the upper chest, with my wife's G-27, all left of center, missing most of the spine, hoping to hit the aorta, with ranger "t" series, this round might hit some nerves. The spine is very well protected from the front, by the vertabrae body, I figure that disrupting the nerve roots is easier, where they come out of protection of the spine. Instead of fighting the muzzle lift I just try to keep the gun from moving side to side.

In the heat of the moment, it is unlikely that many will be able to make these kinds of decisions or be capable of such coherent thought while engaging a dynamic, moving target that is fighting back.

How does your training teach you to shoot? It has to be pick a shot, aquire that target, squeeze. That I had a pre-planned way to shoot, means that I do not have to think as much. I practice shooting like this when I could. It was not formal training, it was observation of what the gun wanted to do, and aiming as best I could. I did not state it was a perfect method. Since I do not carry a gun I will never find out if it works. My wife is trained the way she is trained. I like the though of COM, but taking the time to try to move the gun barrel to hit the same place multiple times seems/is difficult to me. I think shooting below the ribcage with a pistol has advantages, like not having to punch through bone. The aorta drops below the ribcage, and if it is hit that person will be in serious problems. There are a lot of blood vessels for a person to bleed out, and only soft tissue for the bullet to pass through.

I guess getting in some streetfights, and knowing what your body actually does is advisable. Even sparring in a Gym in front of a crowd may help. In a fight, you have to make a lot of descisions very fast, what side are they fighting from, what are they doing with their feet, it will quicken your reflexes, and make you a better shooter. Shots of opputunity may have to be weighed, you may have 5 different choices, which will you pick, to end the confrontation the quickest. The idea that the mind is the best self defense weapon is correct. It does need data to operate on.

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, this thread is sort of funny. We can teach all the anatomy we want so as to make shooters better self defense shooters since they will know where the organs are to damage, you know, like the hunters do.

Right. Hitting the critical organs would be fine, but it would be good if we could just get people to hit the person they are intending to hit. 30% hit rate is high for most police departments line officers, but considered very poor for SWAT units. Line officers and regular folks often are doing good just to hit the bad guy, anywhere.

[Danindetroit]

Do you attribute that to not realising what adrenaline will do to a person, lack of realistic training scenarios, or bad shooting. It is a part of the equation. Realism.

I am sure I have seen traffic stops, with about 4 officers, and instead of communicating instructions, the police are yelling contradictry statements. Hands where I can see them, then get out of the car, well to unbuckle a seatbelt, the hands disappear, or to open a door, or roll down a window. Training and tactics.

I took a defensive driving class for truck drivers, the instructors were out on the course, throwing orange construction barrels, and making it a very high stress situation. We told them after that portion of training was over, that it was scary having them out there. They smiled and said, that is why we did it. It works. You learn to do a lot of things accurately, while shifting 13 gears, monitoring a company radio, a CB radio, and a cell phone. I am reasonably sure I used to be able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.

[XavierBreath]

As a scrub nurse and a corpsman, I have first hand knowlege of human anatomy. I can honestly say that if I am in a lethal confrontation, I'm aiming COM. I'll shoot until the threat is stopped. Gunfighting ain't surgery. Targets move. You take what you are given. If they are wearing body armor, then my goose is likely cooked, but I'm not going to aim for sciatic nerves just in case they might be wearing armor.

[DarkKnight01]

how many people walk around with body armor on? and how many of those people are gonna rob you or a store or bank etc... getting ahold of body armor in the first place can be a hard thing to do... and it isnt cheap... sure someone who thought it out and had intelligence would think gee... before robbing this store i should get some body armor... but if they had intelligence in the first place they would have other means of income.. however if body armor truely threatens your means of stopping an attacker get a bigger gun and/or armor pierceing rounds...

and as a side note... ive seen a deer wearing body armor !!! why do you think hunters need such big guns ?!? :D

[Danindetroit]

Does that mean that you think anatomy should not be taught, or should be included. Like I have said this is hypothetical, theoretical, never ganna happen with me. I am curious though, I do know where to plant a 3" knife, to kill, or incapaciatate.

[carebear]

I think that the consensus among shooters and instructors is that, given the variables of any real gunfight, you're better off concentrating on the high-percentage COM (chest) shots first, then modifying if they are not effective.

Playing "pick the organ" probably wouldn't work in the closest thing to "real world" fighting we have to go by. Force-on-force training.

I know none of my military CQB got into that much detail. There are anatomical reasons why the COM is the money area but once I know that's the place to shoot for, the "why" becomes irrelevent.

"Hits are what count" followed by "Shoot the middle of what you can see" followed by "Move" are the "good enough" general rules for me.

[huntershooter]

>> It seems that hunters, know where to shoot game, to kill it rather effectively.

You would like to think so, but reality indicates otherwise! I've worked with "experienced" big game hunters who had never considered and understood target angle until their first HunterShooter event using realistic targets.

Of course, there is a big difference between a hunter-shooter and a guy who bought a deer license . . .

Fast X,
John Buol
HunterShooter.com

[DT Guy]

I suspect that trying to place shots in specific areas of the upper chest while in danger of being killed/shot/stomped on is asking pretty much...OTOH, knifers know (and need to know) their anatomy very intimately to be effective.

Larry

[Danindetroit]

The people in detroit wearing body armor, are people who know corrupt individuals. A friend who I grew up with, help put numerous law enforcement officials in jail, Highland park police were walking individuals through customs, who had kilos of drugs on them. Mayor Young's favorite Niece Cathy Volson Curry, was married to the head of Young Boys Incorparated. If you looked at these people wrong, you were in a fight for your life. The vests, are the ones the cops are supposed to be getting, they are getting them for free, so they can sell them for $50 bucks, and make a profit.

From what I have heard is that they teach one way to shoot, and if that doesn't work, then you are out of luck. A lot of the people wearing vests, are robbing drug dealers, but they are on the streets of detroit. It really doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I bet nobody expected the North hollywood guys to have body armor.

Like I said I have a joint disease that effects, the SI joint, this is where the pelvis meets the sacrum, I know how painful this can be, I have had injections to this region, and it is not fun, I can imagine what a .380 would do. My question has been answered. Do not think out of the box, do not try anything new. Unless it has not been done for at least 50 years, it is not possible or viable. Just like what I was told after breaking my back.

[carebear]

dan,

You are out of line.

I in particular, and many others here in general, aren't saying not to be prepared for body armor, just that it is statistically unlikely to be encountered. For civilian, non-LEO self-defense purposes most engagements will be at close range against unarmored opponants. The statistically best chance to end that kind of attack is multiple shots to COM, BECAUSE OF the cluster of heart/lungs/major blood vessels and CNS. Miss low and there's a good shot at the liver, which tends to be an incapacitating wound. Plus, it is a BIG target, which in the real world allows for a bit of slop in shot placement. SWAT shoots there, Marine Force Recon shoot there, EVERYBODY shoots there first because it is the best target, proven time and time again in the real world.

Most trainers don't teach "anatomy" per se but do teach to shoot at the best anatomical areas. Most quality training also teaches failure drills. If the target doesn't go down from multiple COM hits, you transition to pelvis or head depending on what you can best hit and what you believe to be the more effective shot.

That isn't "in the box" thinking, that's the distillation of what works from the people who do it for real day in and day out.

Get off the high horse.

[LAK]

XavierBreathGunfighting ain't surgery. Targets move ....

And so does dangerous game.

A grizzly - or especially a leopard or lion - can (and they have) tear up several people in time meaured in fractions of a second in close encounters. This is the reason that shoooting dangerous game requires a knowledge of anatomy - and particular bullet placements for particular effects.

While there are a great many hunters who hunt or otherwise have encountered dangerous game, and been unable to do what others can, the principle of learning and practice of that which will stack the odds in favor of the hunter is not diminished.

Like dealing with dangerous animals, knowledge is the foundation on which to build action when dealing with human antagonists. What particular knowledge is applied in what circumstances by which particular person is going to vary of course - each according to his or her particular ability. But attempting to level the field is not the way forward for those who can move that direction.

[XavierBreath]

I would think that rather than study human anatomy, one should first study how to shoot accurately and quickly.

If one wants a diversion from that study and one is afraid that their opponent may be armored, then one should study body armor, the different types, and develop the ability to quickly recognize the different types. Finally, study exposed regions that will stop a threat. The #1 region is the head. You cannot armor your face effectively. I submit that you could as easily hit an eye as a sciatic nerve. However, if a person is being attacked, they are not going to draw on their knowlege of anatomy. They will fall back on their training. Rather than study how to shoot around body armor on a moving target, I think it would be better to devote your time to studying how to evade the threat.

It is my understanding that hunters study game anatomy so they do not have to track a downed animal very far, so that they have a higher probability of a clean kill. They take their shots from cover with a rifle on an unsuspecting target. They can choose to shoot or not. They can take their time at placing the first shot. Most hunters I know do not study anatomy for any purpose other than field dressing and taxidermy. Anatomy for a clean kill is secondary to that. They concentrate more on studying game habits and location. I do know one man who was attacked by a bear. He stated that he did not worry about anything but hitting the animal as many times as possible before he became lunch. He assured me that he did not leave his camp with the intent of killing a bear in this fashion.

FWIW, I believe that BGs may be starting to acquire body armor. At least the smart ones are. If I were a BG, I would. Most bad guys though, are BGs because they believe they will not be caught. They have a warped view of the world, and think they are bulletproof. As such, they do not see the need for armor. If they saw the need for armor, they would see the need for an education, the route to get it, and would change their lives.

Do you have any links to bad guys wearing body armor in Detroit?

[45R]

Stress under fire will drop anyones IQ. Center of mass K.I.S.S.

[Danindetroit]

It seems that people who are learning to shoot tactically, or just want to realise the full potential of their weapon, should learn human anatomy, so that they can effectively stop someone, without having to discharge a whole mag. Head shots, are nice on paper targets at 25 yards, and probably help, in accuracy for getting the feel of point and shoot, at 7 yards.

If this is covered, in classes, just say so or close the thread.

It may be for the same reason that sniper training was always shut down after wwI, WWII, and korea, the fact that hunting, or deliberatly trying to kill or serious incapacitate a person is not a pretty thing. It just seems that it needs to be brought out into the open, for people who have to deal with violent offenders.

Carebear your response was one that seemed to be one that I might take in a situation, take the shot that is given, and improvise, there were others, that I thought were interesting, and thought out. I even got a PM about it. Once again I have stated I do not carry, and have never advocated a particuliar method of shooting even to my wife, I just had a a theory. I think shooting through ribs, is a dicey proposition for handgun caliber. I know it can, and has been done. I appreciate the responses. I know an adrenaline dump, can do very strange things, and some are very different, I can get very calm, if I know what is coming, and it seems that I can assess a lot of info, I also, can get very shaky, and can't think. That is where realistic training pays off.

I tried to cover that I thought that this was a touchy subject. I did not want to get in a big argument about things. Just get a feel for what was being taught. I did do some searches on a person who was listed, but found nothing on this site, but that a Dr. did run a SD class.

No I don't have any articles, I just have LE people telling me they found a guy that had on body armor, a gun and was at a crack house. I figure it is like mice if you see one there are a bunch you didn't. These LE people also say, that they find people wearing armor, while making traffic stops. Read about chief Hart, and his staff, stealing money, that was earmarked for sting operations, I think the money was from confiscated goods, from drug busts, so it was easier to steal, and not on the books. It might have just went in, and right out the back door. He had $2 million cash in his house. It may be hard to find, it is old. I do know that smack has made a big comeback, and it is much more profitable, than crack. I am willing to bet that the more money the more corruption.

The city is trying to look good for the 2006 superbowl, I bet news stories will start to center around how great detroit is, it might have a facelift, but it is still rotten underneath, not all just some, but are you a corrupt cop, for looking the other way?. If somebody was offeneded by what I said, then I am sorry. It was 3 degrees out a couple days ago, now it is 40, and raining, I get in a bad mood, when my back hurts, and I mean like when a dentist hits a nerve in your tooth, and after the shooting pain your whole jaw aches, and it never goes away. If anybody has ever gotten a spinal tap, that is what it feels like everyday, and worse when the weather changes. It doesn't make it right, but that is what happens.

The chance of running into a person with body armor is probably remote, I worked with guys, who just got out of prison for burglary, they never robbed a house, because they feared getting shot by the occupants, they robbed businesses after hours, they were out maybe 4 months before they went back in. Criminals are thinking about protection from armed people. How they are going to respond is going to be learned in the following years.

I asked a question, some individuals answered. Detroit has been corrupt for a long time. Long before Mayor Young. It goes back to the 30's at least this city workers, and police. There was so much money and resources back then, skimming off the top wasn't noticed. Now with budgets tight since the 70's thru now, it is noticed. I appreciate everybody's input, I came up with, that most times, anatomy isn't taught, some people do teach it, others learn it on their own. I would think, that most people who carry a knife as back-up, know where they are going to plant it. I learned what I wanted to. Detroit is different than A lot of places, my friend who travel on business, say it, and I believe it.

I found out what I wanted to.

[LAK]

Knowledge of the anatomy in the context of dangerous game is an aid to knowing what is likley to bring the instant demise or physically incapacitate in particular ways.

Dangerous game, like all others, are sometimes wounded and must be tracked and finished. The difference is that a wounded (or even an unwounded) dangerous game animal will often make it it's business to turn on their antagonist and bring about their end. Likewise the chance encounter with a variety of what can be considered dangerous animals may mean a similar circumstance and call for the same knowledge and skills.

As far as the stress factor in a violent encounter, I can not think of many things more stressful as a sudden close encounter with a grizzly bear, a wounded leopard or lion. For that matter an encounter of moderate distance that rapidly changes to a closer one.

[carebear]

LAK,

Like you are saying. There's a distinct difference between hunting dangerous game and a defense situation against it. It is the same as the difference between sniping at a human target and defending against an attack by one.

If I am hunting/sniping, I have the initiative and time to pick my shot to incapacitate/kill. The target is probably not aware of me or has not yet reacted. In any event, it will be reacting to me.

In a defense situation against dangerous game animals or "The Most Dangerous Game," I am reacting to an attack. I do not have the initiative nor is reaction time on my side.

In either case, my defensive goal is the same. Get as many rounds into the most likely anatomical region to stop the attack. A brain shot to ragdoll or perhaps a hip/shoulder shot to stop the attack. With a human, that has a distance weapon option, mobility kills are not satisfactory, I need incapacitation. Thus I go COM and transition to head (if I can pull it off) if need be.

It's the difference between a passing shot at a lion at 15 yds. and a lion coming out of the brush at 15 feet.

[JohnKSa]

Getting a hit on a moving target that's shooting back at you is plenty hard enough. Taking a lower percentage shot because there MIGHT be body armor isn't a good idea IMO. If body armor is truly a concern then one should pick a round that can defeat common types of armor. 9x25 Dillon with FMJ might be a good choice. 7.62x25 seems to work well by all accounts.

And, hitting bone isn't so bad--it can actually be a good thing. The sternum isn't much of a barrier for a decent defense round, and bone splinters can do a lot of work. The .30 Mauser was noted for being a great stopper--but ONLY when ribs or sternum were hit, thus creating secondary projectiles.

BTW, the guy touting .45ACP as a great remedy for body armor doesn't read body armor specs. Even with FMJ, .45ACP isn't a great choice for use against body armor.

I'll be aiming COM, in spite of (or perhaps because of) my knowledge of anatomy.

The only reason I'd take a pelvic shot would be if I were faced with a person armed with a sword or large knife in very close quarters.

[Double Naught Spy]

JohnKSa is right about .45 acp and body armor. Level 1, fragmentation rated and not ballistic rated, still manages to stop .45 acp, at least in a couple of the unscientific testing I have seen. It is not a consistent stopper, hence why level 1 isn't rated for .45 acp, but I would guess that even if .45 acp penetrated the armor, the power might not be there to penetrate the person or certainly not to penetrate very far. The armor will remove a lot of the energy as the round fights through the fabric. If the round is a hollowpoint, the leading edles will collapse inward, not expand, and then the round fold and expand behind the collapsed point. Because they do expand without any sort of cutting action to speak of by the leading edges, they are more easily stopped than ball rounds.

Of all the calibers, .45 acp is really one of the easier ones to stop by vests because the round is big, slow, and with a large cross section. It simply is not a good round for trying to separate, spread, and the pass through the fibers, which is what penetrating ammo does do. It is no surprise that pointy rifle ammo penetrates most soft body armor. It has the speed, energy, and the point. Ballistic body armor is a poor armor against penetrating items like knives and ice picks. So a little .223 round pierces the soft armor much like an ice pick.

In the final analysis of teaching anatomy and handgun self defense, I don't think it is all that necessary that students try to aim for kill spots as they might do when hunting game such as deer. It is not so important that they know where all the organs are, but some basic knowledge is good. What is more important relative to handguns and anatomy for students is that they come to understand why it is that their handguns are less than terrific stoppers. Coinciding with such information is some basic ballistic information. With that knowledge, they should be aware before ever being in a self defense situation that if they use their handgun, lack of capabilities in creating the necessary damage and that fact that even when many key organs are damaged, their attackers may not be stopped. This should NOT come as a surprise and they should then have adequate training to know what to do when a stop isn't successful.

I find it amazing that many handgun folks are of the impression that once shot, a bad guy will tend to drop immediately. Much of this insight comes from watching TV actors getting shot. What is so amazing is that while they may think their handgun will or should produce the same results, they are very much aware of the fact that TV handguns that seem to show infinite mag capacity isn't a reasonable assumption about their own guns.

[carebear]

Just wanted to apologize to Dan for calling him "out of line."

When remarking on "high horses," I need to make sure I'm speaking from ground level.

Sorry Dan.

[Danindetroit]

That's cool, I am more out of line than in. I reply, when I should just turn off the computer, take a pill, and relax. Like I said I learned a lot. Lets just play taps, and let this one die, unless it interests someone else.

[seb5]

Just wanted to say it's nice to see an internet discussion board where 2 people disagree, get a little sideways and then correct the skid themselves without mod involvement.

[LAK]

Carebear,

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Stalking and picking a shot at a dangerous game animal is one thing - running into one at shorter distances unexpectedly, or closing with a wounded one is another matter altogether.

I would equate such an encounter very similar to - but far worse - than any human "3 percenter" currently discussed in another thread.

[carebear]

LAK,

Definitely. But better than the 3% if only because at least you typically know when you are in dangerous game territory and can plan and gun up accordingly.

That 3%-er might be in the grocery store with you. Which, personally, isn't on the list of places I regularly carry my 12 guage. :D

[Jeff Loveless]

Dan,
You've gotten all sorts of good answers and there is not much that I can add, but...

The training I've had didn't so much go into detail of organ location as much as remembering that the human body is not a flat sheet of cardboard and angles are terribly important. On a 3-D torso, COM may be the arm pit or right breast. If you're on your back shooting up your aim point might be the belly button - all to drive your bullet into that area behind the bullseye you typically think of on a 2-D target.

To quote one of my instructors, COM is where all the wires and hoses are - you want to sever wires and hoses to disable the human machine. Depending on the angle in a moving gun fight, the aim point could literally be any where.

[carebear]

Dan,

I keep mentioning Awerbuck. One of the neat things he does is staple the silhouettes so that they curve outward and then places the stands at angles to the shooter. That gives more of a "3D" feel and brings up the importance of moving and angling your fire so that rounds go as deeply into the target as possible, not just follow shallow peripheral paths.

[Danindetroit]

Thanks.

[Ninjato]

My personal opinion....

If a person has no idea of basic human anatomy, that person needs more help than a gun can supply. isn't basic anatomy taught in grade school? :confused:

Basic human anatomy is just plain common knowledge. I don't even see the need for such a wasteful class for myself. Of course if I teach a firearm self defense class, this would be the perfect "rip-off" scam to the general unknowing public. Offering basic anatomy would make me a lot of $$$ if I base the whole premise of how important it is to know anatomy to defend oneself properly.

[Danindetroit]

Please tell me where and what the dural mater is?

I am sure one of my wife's grandfathers, completed only the 2nd grade, but he was a good hunter, leased about 700 acres in the thumb to farmers, and worked into his 70's. He was a hunter, and shooter, I am pretty sure he knew about deer anatomy first hand, and most birds.

I do not even think one of my grandfathers attended school or spoke english, never stopped him from hunting, or owning businesses. 2 of his 3 sons served in the armed forces, and his only daughter also. He owned land on Harsen's island, and hunted it. Knowledge is helpful in just about everything.

[Shorts]

the layer that surrounds the CNS

[Danindetroit]

Which layer? I was hoping nj replied. Since it doesn't matter, and he was taught that in grade school, and the fact, that if it is not pierced you stand a chance of not contracting madcow disease. I have a reason for asking what I asked, it is personal, but if anyone has a problem with it, I will explain.

[444]

I have taken a few defensive firearms classes and they didn't get real in-depth with A&P. As was mentioned, you shoot for center mass. If that isn't effective you go to your failure drill: transition to the head. It doesn't matter why it was ineffective: body armor or something else, the fact is that you fired two shots COM and they did not stop the threat.
As has been mentioned, actually hitting someone at all in a gun fight seems to be an issue. So, you aim for the largest and most stable target that just happens to contain many of the organs essential to human life.
I don't have a lot of education in A&P, but I have worked as a paramedic in a busy EMS system for 20 years and I have seen a few gunshot wounds up close and personal: possibly over 100. Based on my own experience with this, I completely agree with what I was taught in these gun schools: If your life is on the line, you shoot for the center of mass of whatever is visible. If it is two inches of shoulder peeking around the corner, you shoot it COM. If it is a foot, you shoot it COM. If the whole body is visible, you shoot it, COM. You put lead into the target as fast and as often as you can.
This is a very important concept that I am pretty sure, a lot of people have never given a whole lot of consideration. Why ? Because we tend to shoot on one dimensional targets that are facing us in correct anatomical position. It has been my experience that when confronted with a three dimensional target that is not facing me directly, I revert to my practice and try to shoot for the same spots on the target as I would in practice. For example, I might mentally tell myself I am shooting the target's third shirt button. BUT, if the target is not facing me, this might result in a superficial hit;even if I hit the third button. You need to shoot COM of whatever is visible to you. Another example with head shots: depending on what direction the person if facing, his right eye might be COM, or his ear might be COM: we tend to think in terms of forehead right between the eyes because this is what we see in training; normally.
This whole argument about COM vs. Center of Chest reflects the idea that we are thinking in a single dimension: that we are shooting at a target that is facing us and we can see the whole target. In reality, there is no error with the term COM: you shoot for the COM: if this happens to be a person facing you face to face and you can see their whole body, you shoot center of mass. Note we said, center of mass, not "take their height and divide by two". Mass means the big part: this is the trunk of the body. The trunk of the body has appendages, which are not part of the "mass". But we are now dealing with semantics: you shoot for the middle of whatever you can see and repeat as nessessary.

[Danindetroit]

Thanks for the help, I need to get some videoes, I understand, but I need to actually see it, Bill Jordan sounds interesting, and Louis Awerbuck. There is no way I can attend a class, but at least a vide will help me. Thanks for the help.

[Jeff22]

Dr. Jim Williams who is an associate instructor for LFI teaches a class called "Tactical Anatomy" which is basically elementry anatomy for gunfighters. He posts on tacticalforums.com once in a great while. (DrJSW)
www.firearmstrng.com.

I believe John Farnam of Defense Training International has co-instructed courses with a physician and they cover many of the same issues, but I don't know that doctor's name.

[Danindetroit]

Very neat, the aorta, looks pretty wide. I think I might have a long torso, so the hips look high to me, I think a glancing blow to the aorta, with "T" series loads, and the heart will get over 100 beats a minute, and drain a person, if the sudden loss of blood pressure, doesn't at least slow them down. I think they sell the T-shirts, for $15

Again thanks everybody.

http://www.tacticalanatomy.com/images/TacticalAnatomyTShirt.jpg

This one shows things pretty well, I think, that is a little better rep, of the anatomy, of most people.
http://www.firearmstrng.com/photos/doc%20ron%20red.jpg

Tactical Anatomy Systems is a lethal force targeting method developed by an Emergency Physician with strong ties to the law enforcement community. Standard training targets used by most police forces for training and routine firearms qualification have little or no correlation to the vital structures of human anatomy. As a result, police officers often have only a vague idea of where to aim when faced with an armed, aggressive felon.

Training police to shoot for “center of mass” translates, in most officers’ minds, to “shoot somewhere in the middle”. This middle-muddle sets up the officer for failure—failure to hit vital structures, failure to neutralize the armed attacker, and by extension, failure to protect himself and the community from a dangerous criminal.

I am sure it looks too physical for me, but maybe my wife can go, with a couple of people from work.

[Ninjato]

Danindetroit Senior Member Join Date: 10-01-2004 Location: Detroit Posts: 736 Please tell me where and what the dural mater is? I am sure one of my wife's grandfathers, completed only the 2nd grade, but he was a good hunter, leased about 700 acres in the thumb to farmers, and worked into his 70's. He was a hunter, and shooter, I am pretty sure he knew about deer anatomy first hand, and most birds. I do not even think one of my grandfathers attended school or spoke english, never stopped him from hunting, or owning businesses. 2 of his 3 sons served in the armed forces, and his only daughter also. He owned land on Harsen's island, and hunted it. Knowledge is helpful in just about everything.

My statement was not an insult. You seem to take it that way and took what I said out of context. What grade your grandfather only completed has nothing to do w/ the context of what I said. The fact that he owned 2 businesses has nothing to do w/ this thread and basic human anatomy.

When I say basic, I meant BASIC. Brain, lungs, heart, stomach, liver. As long as the BG goes down after being shot in the head, chest, abdomen, torso which house the brain, heart, stomach, and liver respectively. Beyond that I keep shooting until the BG stops. The time it takes to aim to such a precise area on a moving target rushing at you at the rate of 10ft+/sec, aiming down is not happenning. If you have the time to aim, then the BG is way too far for you to legally shoot in most circumstances.

I never said knowledge is not helpful and my point is, if a person has no idea where the brain is, the heart is, the stomach is, then the person needs more help than an anatomy class offered at a shooting range.

BTW, the dural matter is the brain or the gray matter associated w/ the brain.

[Danindetroit]

The Dural Mater, is one coverring of the cns just like shorts said, it is the outer layer, and covers the brain, and spinal cord. There are 2 other layers. They are also called Meninges, so spinal meningitis, is an inflamation of these linings, usually cause by a bacterial, or viral infection.

[QUOTE]If a person has no idea of basic human anatomy, that person needs more help than a gun can supply. isn't basic anatomy taught in grade school? :confused:
QUOTE]

Yes law enforcement, and most people probably could use a refresher couse, on the 3-d aspect of shooting. How can people who have never gone to school receive this knowledge? What kind of help do they need? Your post seems to imply they are mentally defective, and do not deserve this knowledge. They should be able to get the training from a competent person, like this Dr. read up on his website, it is interesting, most people do not think this way, these shirts, could have helped a person, without a formal education, defend themselves. Even if they read poorly or not at all.

Other people spoke of this 3-d concept, but I needed to see it to understande some things. I have posted that I learn visually, diagrams, charts, pics.

[Ninjato]

Yes law enforcement, and most people probably could use a refresher couse, on the 3-d aspect of shooting. How can people who have never gone to school receive this knowledge? What kind of help do they need? Your post seems to imply they are mentally defective, and do not deserve this knowledge. They should be able to get the training from a competent person, like this Dr. read up on his website, it is interesting, most people do not think this way, these shirts, could have helped a person, without a formal education, defend themselves. Even if they read poorly or not at all. Other people spoke of this 3-d concept, but I needed to see it to understande some things. I have posted that I learn visually, diagrams, charts, pics.

Ok, it is obvious you simply refuse to understand my point. I said BASIC. If a person does not know where the brain is regardless of schooling, then the person IS mentally deficient. If a person is unaware that the lungs are in the chest cavity, regardless of schooling, then the person IS mentally deficient. There are just some things where common sense is all that is needed. Now if I was going into the medical field, then I can see the benefit of an anatomy class.

Like I said, it is a great money making scheme. I'd rather spend my $$$ on ammo and practice shooting.

You have made no point at all in asking me what the dural matter is other than to show prove I am wrong. I doubt the avrage person would know this but I am SURE if you ask anybody where their brain is they can show you.

Trying to tell a person who is not a gun enthusiast, who carries, and practices about once a month, to shoot at a moving target and try to aim at a certain "organ" is absurd imo. I am a martial arts instructor and back in the early '80s many martial schools started to teach self defense classes. Very quickly, it was realized that the average person just cannot apply the higher level techniques an accomplished practitioner can. It was then condensed into what we have today for women's self defense. The techniques are simple direct and work, unlike the overly intricate stuff from years past. My point.....Keep it simple...point, aim, shoot, and GET THE F OUTTA THERE!!!!!

[444]

Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target.
Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.

[Ninjato]

Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target. Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.

This I can understand. Thanks for the tip. I will keep an eye out for this error when the situation arises at the range although maybe it is me being a career martial artist, I never really thought of a person as a 2 dimensional object. Being a hand to hand thing, you get the 3-D effect in your face. It is a good tip to watch for nevertheless.

I still think the anatomy class is clever scam. Business is business and there is a sucker born every minute. Just my opinion.

[XavierBreath]

I want to state again, that I know anatomy pretty well. I can tell you where the LAD, the RCA and the circumflex are. I can tell you where the subclavians are, as well as the brachiocephalics. I can tell you what the thalamus is, the hypothalamus, and what the difference is. I am a scrub nurse. I have assisted in surgery. I have dissected. I know where things are in the human body, and the variations among individual people. I have seen surgeons go searching. I have spotted what they were looking for. I feel confident in my grasp of anatomy.

The two dimensional Tshirt guy is a joke, and I cannot believe a physician/instructor would be this ignorant. Actually, he's not. Teaching this type of anatomy for self defense with a gun is a gimmick. That is all it is, a gimmick. He's getting students and making money! He's smart! When T shirt guy turns sideways, his heart is NOT on the surface of his chest as depicted by the drawing on his shirt. His actual heart is obscured by his arm in a side view if the arm is down. His actual heart is 4-6 inches from that drawing on his shirt. Tshirt man is no different than that paper target, but now he has an aura of reality because he is presented as fact by a physician. What is next? Shooting specific areas of the heart with a .22LR to induce arrythmias? Yelling at the BG "Hey, face forward, so I can align my anatomical landmarks please!"?

This type of precision anatomy shooting is based on the assumption that a bullet will continue to travel in a straight line after it enters a human body. (At least I have to assume that this "instructor" does not really believe the heart is on the surface of the chest as his Tshirt depicts). Once a bullet enters a human body, all bets are off as to where it will go and where it will stop. You might be aiming for the bicuspid valve, and be right on target, and then that darned bullet decided to take a detour once inside the chest, and it ended up in the pyloric valve instead. Doggone it, now you have to shoot again, and the damned BG will just not hold still for you. This kind of anatomical marksmanship is founded on the idea that the bullet will continue to travel in a straight line after penetration. They don't. All it takes is one evening digging out bullets to realize that the straight line through the body idea is a myth.

This type of training could convince a gun ignorant jury that you had the training to shoot selectively and prevent the BG from dying. That is really dangerous! I can almost promise you in a lethal encounter you will be running, twisting, falling, tripping, and trying your damnedest to get as many rounds into your target's COM as you can, whether you have had this type of training or not. Since you attended Dr. Shootgud's classes though, the jury will look at all that training you got........Oh no, the BG could have been easily imobilized with a hit to the acetabulum. Now you are a murderer.

In a lethal encounter, the shooter trying to hit these dynamic anatomical targets will likely die. While he is taking the time to choose whether he would like to hit the SA node, the AV node, or some purkinje fibers, his opponent will be blasting his COM into oblivion.. He would be better trained if he had invested his time into quickly getting his gun out of the concealed holster without shooting himself, aligning his sights COM without shooting the ground in front of him, and putting two quick hits into an area 3 inches in diameter that is 15 feet away from him. It is hard enough to do that.

BTW it goes: skin, galea aponeurotica, skull, dura mater, arachnoid, and then pia mater. Then you get into grey or white MATTER.

edited to add: I'm sorry, I reread my post, and it sounded rather contrary to how I try to talk to people. I guess what I am trying to say is I know human anatomy very well, from years of hands on experience. I recognize that a 150 pound man's thoracic cavity will be different than a 350 pounders. I have been shooting most of my life, and have trained hard and well to defend myself. I have been in situations that had a high pucker factor. When in the military, I experienced incoming fire. I have to say, in all honesty, if I have another instance when I must defend my life, I will be putting my firearms training to use, not my surgical training. I do not believe that this type of training is of use to anyone with the exception of a sniper. In a self defense situation, I feel it is far more important to gain the initiative, get your gun safely into the fight, and avoid taking hits yourself while putting as many into the BG as you must to survive. Being able to hit moving targets while moving yourself is far more important than knowing anatomy. Everyone has a gimmick to get people into their classes. That is what I think this is. No offense meant to those who may find it interesting. :)

[Blackhawk6]

My knowledge of anatomy is limited to what I learned in 9th grade biology. Allow me to summarize: the upper chest houses some pretty important stuff, as does the head. The spine runs down the center of the back.

When I attended my first block of instruction on fighting with a firearm I was advised that my target will most likely be facing me or be quartered away from me (ruling out shots to the spine), the head is small and moves around a lot (making it hard to hit) and I was advised to aim for the upper chest (where the important stuff resides). This sync'd with what my biology teacher taught me. (Common sense told me that if none of the "choice" portions of his anatomy were available, I should shoot what was until something better became available.)

I was further advised that a single hit from my weapon, particularly if it was a handgun, may not instantly incapacitate my opponent. In that event, I should continue to shoot into the upper chest and, if after multiple shots to the upper chest (the exact number to be determined by me), my opponent was still a threat I may want to consider putting rounds into a different portion of his anatomy. The two suggested were the head, understanding that it is small and moves around a lot, or the pelvis, which could make the bad guy fall down but not necessarily take him out of the fight. (This also sync'd with 9th grade biology). This seemed like sound advice and it is what I have been using for 10+ years. So far, no issues.

I no longer remember where the common perineal nerve is located or what vitreous humor is but I consider myself to have adequate anatomical knowledge to defend myself. I have to wonder what else anyone would need to know.

[Ninjato]

Blackhawk6 and XavierBreath......EXACTLY what I was trying to say before I was questioned to where the dural matter is :rolleyes: .

[CarlosDJackal]

FWIW, most of the handgun courses, as well as the shotgun and carbine courses, I have attended emphasized the Upper Center of Mass (UCOM) as the primary area you should place your rounds in.

[LAK]

When speaking of knowledge of anatomy in the context of self defense we are not speaking of that which is necessary to be a Navy corpsman or a surgeon, but what is potentially beneficial in varied circumstances, against varied antagonists, etc.

As well as bullet type and construction (pistol and rifle) this can be injected into the practical topic of the specific effects, likely or not, of the specific target areas. Like what can and cannot be expected of a CM hit that rips the aorta as opposed to a solid CNS hit. Or should a headshot be deemed necessary, where to aim from all angles.

These are the reasons a knowledge of anatomy is potentially beneficial, not as merely mapping the skeletal, cardiovascular system etc - but their merits and effects as targets with various firearms and bullets.

[Ninjato]

When speaking of knowledge of anatomy in the context of self defense we are not speaking of that which is necessary to be a Navy corpsman or a surgeon, but what is potentially beneficial in varied circumstances, against varied antagonists, etc. As well as bullet type and construction (pistol and rifle) this can be injected into the practical topic of the specific effects, likely or not, of the specific target areas. Like what can and cannot be expected of a CM hit that rips the aorta as opposed to a solid CNS hit. Or should a headshot be deemed necessary, where to aim from all angles. These are the reasons a knowledge of anatomy is potentially beneficial, not as merely mapping the skeletal, cardiovascular system etc - but their merits and effects as targets with various firearms and bullets.

You think you actually NEED a class for this? You don't think common sense is enough. I understand that there are many out there that common sense is not something that comes easy but that is truly disappointing to think people are that incapable of thinking logically.

[Danindetroit]

So you think that a standard target, is good enough for law enforcement?

[Ninjato]

So you think that a standard target, is good enough for law enforcement?

I am thru trying to explain my point to you Dan. You definitely are not trying to understand and personally I don't think you want to. If you think it is valid then all the power to you. Waste your $$$$. Take the course. Buy the stupid T-Shirt so you can visualize vital organs as you practice drawing and dry firing in the mirror :rolleyes:

[Danindetroit]

I can't take the course, I have a bad back. I believe that the class does have merit. Most people who call things common sense usually have more knowledge than another person. Shooting a gun, is not common sense, it is practice, and training. I do not have a holster for my non-exsistant handgun, so I guess I'll stick to asking questions to expand my knowledge. I appreciate the responses of people that helped. I explained things to people that asked, and they understood. Other people explained things better than I could, and answered my questions very well. I have some good advice.

[Ninjato]

Dan I am not mad at you. I have stated that it is my personal opinion that the course is a scam. I also said that basic anatomy is general knowledge. Again I reiterate BASIC, not some dura matter like you asked so you could make me look like I didn't know what I was talking about. Furthermore you went on to talk about your grandfather who did not finish the 2nd grade, and knew deer anatomy to hunt. Well I'm not sure but I highly doubt he went to a class with a deer wearing a anatomical t-shirt so he can visualize in 3-D where the organs he needed to hit were. He had a lot of common sense.

Now you ask if practicing on standard targets for law enforcement is enough. Well I think you need to see it for what it is. I wuld rather have the police shoot accurately and quickly than to worry about visualizing in 3-D and try to hit a specific organ on a moving target. It is better to have LE practice on a moving standard target to get used to shooting at moving targets IMO.

If a law enforcement officer does not have enough comon sense to figure out where he needs to shoot, he is in the WRONG profession.

BTW , my range has silhouettes that are stooping, squatting, standing, turned to the side. I believe that this is enough. You may not.

[Danindetroit]

If a law enforcement officer does not have enough comon sense to figure out where he needs to shoot, he is in the WRONG profession.

There are many women law enforcement officers, and people who were men stated that they had a hard time visualizing certain shots. These people seemed to have common sense, other people said they had the knowledge already from other sources. Have you been to an academy, and shot to qualify? Shooting at a person on an angle and relizing that you have to not shoot where you think, could be hard to learn.

Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target. Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.

You thought this was good advice, what is wrong with a Dr. teaching it? You insinuate that from training you might not make the mistake, how much training is that? Training is not common sense.

ninjanto:You think you actually NEED a class for this? You don't think common sense is enough. I understand that there are many out there that common sense is not something that comes easy but that is truly disappointing to think people are that incapable of thinking logically.

In the heat of the moment, it is unlikely that many will be able to make these kinds of decisions or be capable of such coherent thought while engaging a dynamic, moving target that is fighting back.

I suspect that trying to place shots in specific areas of the upper chest while in danger of being killed/shot/stomped on is asking pretty much

Stress under fire will drop anyones IQ.

It seems most people think a shootout will make thinking logically difficult. The only thing to fall back on is training, knowing where the heart is common sense, but knowing how to shoot when standing on the left side of a person, to hit the heart seems that training, and not thinking logically, and trying to figure out, how to hit it is best. It seems you can waste a whole mag, basically shooting a person in the front of the chest, missing the heart, if you did not practice for it.

It was noted above that those shirts were not even correct. That is because they were drawn by students, not the Dr. he has the students draw grade school anatomy, and these are mainly law enforcement people. The doc corrects, and helps with angles of attack, yes bullets do not go straight, but hopefully with this training you can get more than one shot on COM. The website insinuated that the anatomy was a short part of the course, and the range, and utilizing the knowledge, and backing it up was key. The picture do not do the course justice. The legal ramifications of this training, are of no concern.

I have a reason for asking what I asked, it is personal, but if anyone has a problem with it, I will explain.

I did explain my reason to people, and they were satisfied, they are people who I have disagreed with in the past, and "understood" why I asked. Or at least pretended to. So if novices, or LE people learning grade school anatomy offends you so much, go to the wesite, and e-mail the instructors, one is a police officer, engineer, has 17 years as a medical tech, Judo instructor, and is currently classified Sharpshooter in Stock and Enhanced Service Pistol, as well as Marksman with Stock Service Revolver. Seems like a pretty well rounded individual. The Doc is classified as Expert in Stock Service Revolver and Stock Service Pistol Divisions, and is currently IDPA’s State Coordinator for Wisconsin. Another person is a USMC veteran and full-time Deputy Sheriff, is highly active in Wisconsin’s law enforcement training community and is a Wisconsin Deptartment of Justice certified firearms instructor for his department, plus he is an active competitive shooter in IDPA, David holds numerous titles, including several State and Regional Championships. David is currently classified as Wisconsin's only 4-Division IDPA Master. Ayoob teaches here also. I guess these people have some credentials. They may just be fakes after money, the basic pistol class costs a whopping $95, the advanced class $175. Not exactly cheap, but I haven't priced any others. Some other classes in Ohio seemed very good also. I will definitely get Awerbuck's(SP) book. Thanks for everbody's interest, feel free to tell me about your qualifications also.

[XavierBreath]

feel free to tell me about your qualifications also.
OK,
6 years as a Navy Corpsman
134 days of combat
multiple mass casualties, and gunshot wounds
4 years of school to become a Registered Nurse
12 years of practice as an RN
2 years of advanced study to become a First Assistant to Surgeons
9 years of surgical practice

Being able to get your gun into play from concealment without shooting yourself is more valuable than knowing where intercostal spaces are.

When you are being shot at, being able to shoot moving targets while on the move yourself is much more valuable than knowing where the aorta is.

Even if you cannot get a COM shot, you are fortunate if you get one shot in anywhere and slow the guy down while you get to cover to make that COM shot.

People have to have a gimmick to get students into their classes or they make no money.

This is turning into a flame war. Please don't take it personally. I'm out.

[LAK]

Ninjato,

Common sense enough? If common sense were enough, one would not need to discuss minutae like bullet construction, bullet weight, velocity and the relationship between the three when they impact human targets of different sixes from different angles, with or without obstructions. One could simply go to the store and "buy a box of ammo".

There are indeed many people who do just that; go out and "buy a box (or two) of ammo". But for others there is a direct relationship between the cartridges and loads they choose to load their defensive handguns with and their practical knowledge of human anatomy.

I have seen a fair amount of professional training material in print, photo and film that goes into this topic quite deeply. The agencies and individuals who use such material do not take the subject lightly or they would not waste their time with it.