please critique me [Archive] - TheFiringLine Forums

skidmark

April 5, 2005, 09:26 PM

I also posted this on THR, but I'm open to feedback from anyone.

please critique me

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After-action report - not a full 30 minutes ago it all ended. I know I made several mistakes. I need to hear from you all so I can see them better than through the currest forest I'm in.

Rolled up to my apartment after dinner with the SO. A bunch (4 - 6, not sure of them all as individuals but keeping "the group" together in my conscienceness) clusted on the walk/parking area in front of my door. Drinking, passing the bottle back & forth. As I got out of the car - hand on CCW in right front pocket & the car between me & them - I casually asked them to put the bottle away or take it inside, as there had been problems with litter.

All appeared to be polite and agreed to put the bottle down on the grass. A few "I'm sorry, man, didn't mean to disrespect you" statements offered my way. Then our young hero steps forth to ask me if he could use my phone to call his ride. I told him I would be glad to call for him but he could not use my phone. He is about 15 feet away and still the car between me & the group. My hand still casually in the pocket.

Our hero begins to cuss (mildly for the type -- sorry if it sounds like a stereotype but around here I hear mose cussing than actual conversation) and advance around the car, asking why I'm disrespecting him. SAs he begins to walk towards me I tell him (think verbal command voice without escalation of volume or lowering of tone) "stay on that side of the car." As he continues to slowly work his way around the car I tell him "back off."

He is now at contact distance - about 2 feet - and cussing at me without raising his voice. My right hand is still in the front pocket on the CCW, which I have now slipped loose in the FIST holster. My left hand goes to the pepperspray and I palm that while telling him to back off or I will spray him.

As he is backing up he starts making verbal threats to beat me, that he will come back later tonight to settle this with me, and then lets loose the deal-maker - "I'll kill you! See if I don't." As he turns onto the street he heaves the bottle at me. I easilly slip left and all he does is put a small dent in the front quarterpanel. (It's a 95 Chevy Corsica with 200K+ - what do I care?)

As our hero moves off the rest of the crowd disperses. I keep my eyes open and check 6 from all sides with nobody to be seen except our hero going east and everybody else heading west..

A he is now more than 25 feet away and retreating down the street, I let go of the pepperspray and pull out the cell phone to call 9-1-1. I tell them I was verbally assaulted, had a bottle thrown at me, and that the assailant threatened me with bodily harm and threatened to kill me. Yes, that last part was repeated several times.

Cops show up within 10 minutes - not bad response time for nothing happening right then and several working traffic/criminal satops down the road about 1/2 mile -- saw them littering the highway as I came off the interstate & towards the complex. Discription checked, broadcast, and within 5 minutes (while Officer Friendly is getting my demographics) we hear that they have stopped somebody matching the general description. Would I follow them down the road and look at who they have?

Oh - when Officer F. arrived I informed him I have CHP & weapon. Not required by law but I always find that we get along better if that is the first thing I say. Next was "what would you like me to do?" He asks if I would put weapon in apartment or in trunk as there are 5 or 6 officers on the scene. I do not object as they have secured (handcuffs) the subject and I will not be closer than 3 car lengths (30+ feet?).

We do the spotlight on our hero bit, and I make the ID. They tell me that he is wanted on a few outstanding warrants. I ask if they will press the assault charge and I am assured they will seek the warrant for that. I do the on-scene written statement, exchange business cards with Officer F. and check calendars for a court date.

Nobody hurt (so far). One bad guy off the streets, at least for a while. Jimmy bar against the front door & too much clutter at the back to allow any but the most agile or dedicated to get in without waking me up along with half the street. Motion detector alarm on the 4th step leading from door to upstairs. (I have literally slept through a rocket/mortar attack, as well as a 7th birthday girls' sleepover!) SIG 220 & reload at bedside, E2E Surefire & L4 Lumamax Surefire with the SIG, and .410 SxS with #4s in the semi-hardened closet where I would retreat if anybody came up the stairs. Cell phone in charger in the closet, along with 2 more Surefires and about 12 ammo cases of magazines & loose for the SIG, 2 cases for the .410.

OK. What did I do wrong, besides start the whole mess by opening my mouth? What should I have done differently? Please no discussion of a 12guage pump vs my SxS .410 - that's personal preference, I've heard it all and am satisfied with my decision.

stay safe

skidmark

The Body Bagger

April 5, 2005, 09:46 PM

Well you did the right thing throughout but in my opinion and its only and opinion not trying to ridicule you, I would've just said "how you doing, mind if I get to my place?" I wouldn't have started making demands to put the bottle away and dispurse. OTOH you do you have the right to tell them to get away from your property and yes you did a good thing in getting one BG off the streets. Unfortunately thats one of them, lets hope that since now they all know where you live, nothing else comes of it. Oh yeah trim your nose hairs and wash your socks more often. Thats the end of my critique.

38splfan

April 5, 2005, 09:49 PM

It sounds as though you handled everything as well as you could.
I admit that I wouldn't have said much in the first place, but I doubt that not speaking would have averted the situation. A group of intoxicated people of ill-repute usually leads to some kind of confrontation, no matter who initiates. I speak from experience as, while stationed in Korea, I was on both the initiating and recieving ends of plenty.

The restraint you displayed by reaching for the OC spray first speaks volumes about you. That was most thoroughly the correct response. It also distracted the BG's from your movement as you readied your weapon. Also, your attempt to retreat and verbally de-fuse the situation was correct. Had you drawn the weapon without first using other means, you would most likely have had some trouble with the LEO's, even if you didn't fire.

You reacted with restraint, intelligence, and sensibility. Those attributes are good to have. Especially in a situation like that. You do need to ask yourself, now that the adrenaline has worn off, a few more questions.

1) Is this 100% what happened? Adrenaline tends to blur events, so be certain of them.

2) What could I have done differently? No matter how well you handle a situation, you could always change something.

3) What was my wife doing? This is a big one. Was she still in the car? Was she retreating? Training SO's on proper reaction is critical.

4) Was I prepared to take this man's life? This is the most important question on many levels. I am sure that, like most of us, you hope to never end a person's life. That being said, how prepared were you? I don't mean physically. Were you willing to accept that it had to be one or the other of you? Also, were you prepared to engage the others if need be?

5) What was my mental state? Were you scared? Confused? Alert? Most likely you were a little of each, and then some. Knowing what you did and thought this time will allow you to prepare somewhat more should the need to react to a threat arise again.

Given your attempts to avoid and de-escalate the situation, as well the restraint you used in regards to drawing your weapon, I think you acted wisely.

Just don't talk to 5 guys with a bottle next time ;)

I hope this helps you. Feel free to e-mail if you would like to discuss it further.

John

Edit/Addition: A thought occurred to me about the time I hit the post button.
In your state, I believe that there are laws governing public intoxication. That being the case, I would have called the police and informed them of their presence and activity before exiting the car, then stay in the car, parked away from the group, and wait for the LEO's. I know it would be a hassle, but it may have averted your confrontation.

I guess hindsight is always 20/20.

skidmark

April 5, 2005, 10:30 PM

bodybagger & 38splfan -

Thanks for the input. I'll try to respond to some of the issues you raise.

Maybe I should have stayed in the car, or gone inside and called the cops about them drinking, but if they were on the apartment complex property & not the street there was no legal foul. All I can do is ask the landlord to enforce the lease provisions about loitering -- and if they were over 18 the curfew-at-dark does not apply.

I'm going to have to think about this, but I'm just too darned tired of the way things continue to slide downhill because nobody will speak up and object to improper behavior. A few years ago the place really started to slide, then we got a new owner who drew a line in the sand. I like his "gumption" and the fact that the place "cleaned up". Now there are a few minor incidents, like tonight, where it is starting to slide down again. Does it help that the police report can be used as grounds to evict "our hero" or the tenant who he was visiting if the landlord wants to force the issue? Am I aware that if that happens I have made more "friends" that I do not want - YEP!

The SO lives on the other side of town. She was all safely tucked in and locked up when I left her.

Are there some gaps, holes, and deletions in the narrative? You bet there are. Are those so serious as to change the story or slant it more to one side than the other? Nope! Have I written down a much more detailed version of what I posted, or the extremely brief written statement given to Officer Friendly? Wrote out 2 so far - both time-date stamped and locked, then sent as e-mail to my work account. If there's ever a question about my version, I should be able to answer everything except the exact time I arrived home & the exact time the threats/assault were made.

Emotional check for during & after? Mostly calm (been through many similar situations as employee of Dept of Corrections and military corrections 30+ years ago). Heck of a lot less nervousness with maybe 6 all at my front, good cover & angles in my favor, as well as enough light to see everybody's hands and eyes. As all but our hero bunched and moved back, I was able to keep our hero (closest to me) as the primary focus but flicked my eyes to see where & how the group was moving.

Was I prepared to use deadly force? Yes. Not a question in my mind. As I said, I sleep undisturbed, and if the things I have seen and done so far have not messed that up I do not fear I would lose much sleep after meeting with law enforcement and then my attorney. (Yes, his # is on speed-dial, in my Pal Pilot, and in my wallet. I will not get a tattoo, so I must depend on those options.)

Am I nervous/worried now? Nope. I've done what I can to cover myself and since there is nobody in the apartment but me I know anything moving is a target.

Again, I know I need to rethink the confrontation thing that started it all. One issue I'm very much aware of is that under VA law I would be guilty of whatever charge came out of either spraying or shooting, as I initiated the incident. Thank goodness there is no duty to retreat on the street, and once it started to go south I do not think I could have/would have turned my back to try to get inside.

Given what I've said about taking a stand against hooliganism, I need/want to hear from more folks about errors seen or improvements I need to make.

stay safe.

skidmark

added: I am not a "vigilante" and have no ideas or notions of taking on the world, or all the miscreants in my apartment complex parking lot. I just cannot get it out of my mind that certain behaviors are just plain wrong and if they happen in front of me I'm going to say they are wrong.

Assuming that the "can I use your phone" thing never came up, or the group had moved a bit further away, I think I would have gone inside. They were too close and getting in would have required turning my back on them, if only for a few seconds. I did not feel comfortable doing that, so stayed with the car between me and them.

stay safe.

skidmark

38splfan

April 5, 2005, 10:51 PM

I did not mean to imply that you should accept/ignore the hooliganism. It was just a thought. I also did not intend to imply that your story was wrong/inaccurate.
I just know that, especially in court, details are very important and I want to make sure you come out clean after all this.
I would also never dare to assume that you would be prepared to fire at and kill an individual. I am certain that the decision was made when you applied for and recieved you CCW. I just wanted to make sure that the implications and after effects of a killing are understood. I have done it twice in combat and still do not like it. I sleep pretty well, but occassionally it gets to me.

I meant no ill-will at all, just giving some things to think about. All will be important both in court and in a future engagement (hopefully there will not be one).

skidmark

April 5, 2005, 10:57 PM

38splfan,

no offense taken. no thoughts of you being other than helpful and/or supportive.

I have a few souvinier t-shirts myself, but am blessed with a clear mind and a heart that is pure -- at least as far as those things go. :D

So help me figure out how to improve, given the few things I've said about wanting to confront bad behavior. I'm starting to think that if they had been on the same side of the car as I was I might not have been so bold.

stay safe.

skidmark

Wraith

April 5, 2005, 11:01 PM

After the initial confrontation it sounds like you handled it well. One can always argue about whether you should have said anything, but I don't think you were wrong to do so. The only thing I would have done was not put my CCW away.

Ohh, why do you have a silly .410? What you really need is a super-black combat tactical extreme in 12 ga. ;)

skidmark

April 5, 2005, 11:26 PM

wraith -

I'm confused. "Not put my CCW away" ?? The darn thing was in my right hand from before I got out of the car. I never took my hand away until -- DUH!!

OK, but Officer Friendly asked nice and there was nobody around but us two. I also had a BUG inside the car, which is where I stayed while we were doing the spotlight dance and writing the report - with him outside looking all over the street for "our hero"'s friends, if any. His situational awareness way WAYYY past red at that point.

I will send you my FFL address and a signed copy. Thanks for offering to supply me with the ubertactical 12guage pump. However, my puny little .410 will do very nicely, thank you, at the max range of 33 feet front door to back wall (longest straight line in my place). And it has less likelihood of going through both sets of wallboard and messing up my neighbor's sleep.

stay safe.

skidmark

Hayley

April 6, 2005, 12:07 AM

Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong.

Twycross

April 6, 2005, 12:19 AM

He is now at contact distance - about 2 feet -
The only thing I might have done differently was to keep the bg from getting that close. You told him to stay away, and he didn't. I would have considered using the pepper spray as soon as he disregarded the second warning. But otherwise, great. You kept both your temper and your cool.

rmagill

April 6, 2005, 12:24 AM

Few things...

Down sides:
Would it have been possible to avoid the entire situation by either driving away or entering your apartment through another door (it sounded like you have more than one entrance to your apartment).

Why did you grab the pepper spray when you did? It seems to me that by doing so you occupied both of your hands. He was only two feet away from you. Had he lunged at you, would you have had enough time to spray him then deal with an even angrier, possibly partially, incapacitated "hero". Perhaps you could have kept your hand on your gun but kept it in the holster. That way you could just leg go if you needed your right hand, or you could draw the gun if you needed that.

Good stuff:

You kept the vehicle between you and the group. This allowed you to keep yourself focused on the main bg. Also, if the group of people decided to attack you, the vehicle was a barrier between you and them.

Good job with recognizing the other group and keeping an eye on them as well.

Good job on using verbal commands and trying to de-escalate (sp?)
the situation without needing to use force. However, could this have been done before the main bg was two feet from you?

Good job on maintaining your composure and not loosing control.

Good job on getting a good enough description of the main bg so that the LEOs could ID him as the suspect later.

Good job on contacting LE right after the incident and fully cooperating with them. It allowed them to ID the driver as the suspect that verbally assaulted you and it, IMO, added to the credibility of your story.

I hope this helps.

Glad to hear that you suffered no harm.

Stay safe.

Stiletto

April 6, 2005, 12:58 AM

Sounds clean to me.

The first bit about the bottle seems fine, in hindsight maybe a bad idea, but it wasn't inappropriate. (And most of the group responded politely anyway.)

jburtonpdx

April 6, 2005, 05:09 AM

Skidmark
Glad you are ok and came through it well. Thank you for taking a stand and removing a BG at least for the night. I am also very glad that you sleep well and hope you continue to do so as well as make it home for dinner every day!

The one question I have is were they blocking your path to your apartment?

Everything else aside, if you did not begin the conversation with this fine group of upstanding young vermin I have a feeling they would have started the chat with you anyways.

I consider myself a tactical coward, if I can avoid a situation that has an obvious potential of turning bad I avoid it and find another solution. Put it this way, if my kids were with me in the car when I pulled up and I saw a local church youth group as you described standing on the porch in front of my home, I would probably pull away and call 911.

In one of your followup posts you talked about the situation more from a tactical perspective and it sounds as though you had a good chunk of everything considered. The only problem I see is if BG was armed and willing along with any of his buddies there could have been a bigger problem then you had to deal with...

Despite my statement about being a tactical coward I can feel the anger and frustration in my gut at situations like this. I like that my neighborhood is nice and comfortable. I want the kids, mine and neighbors, to be able to play without fear, I want to be able to sleep without noisy punks outside, and I want to be sure that my car wont have flat tires in the morning. If I had you for a neighbor I would feel even better about things like that... I hope you do pursue the issue with your landlord and dont let the punks intimidate you, not even a little bit.

Rojoe67

April 6, 2005, 07:01 AM

Glad all turned out as well as could have.... Dirt bag in custody and you not injured. Sounds like you get an (A) if I was to grade your actions you stated. It's always easy to say what if I did or didn't do this or that. We all learn from our actions and reactions. Again glad your safe and well. I would have given you an A+ but the bottle thing was the reason. I know this is being tough on you but you did well........ Hope our dirt bag gets some cold sandwich diet for a long year+ to think about just how bad he isn't.

skidmark

April 6, 2005, 08:15 AM

Haley - I do not understand "Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong." Help me out by giving me some insight to what you are getting at.

Folks - I had a few conversations this AM about the incident. Almost everybody has told me that I should not have confronted the group - either hang my head and slink past them into my apartment, or drive away and come back later - wait till they go away. On the other hand, 2 neighbors stopped me as I was getting ready to leave for the office (we see each other every morning, do the nod&wave). Both said they were glad somebody did something about the guys hanging around. FWIW, I have reason to believe at least 1 is not-quite-legal and the other's female companion is definately not legal. That "prevents" them from making waves wherever they go.

I am not a hero, and do not have a Judge Dredd complex, nor do I harbor any great desire to shoot anybody. I carry not because I want to, but because there are some very specific threats out there that I need to be aware of (former inmates and associayes, mostly), plus an occasional incident when I am in a "safer than most" place at a time it is not so safe (forrays to a few restaraunts on the edges of not-so-nice neighborhoods). Then, there is also the incident last night.

Most of the time I only need to worry about myself - for some things the single life is great. I feel comfortable carrying, not because I am now badder than anybody else, but because as an almost senior citizen with bad knees, bad back, bad heart, bad lungs I cannot run away fast, so must deal with the world as I find it. Carrying just evens out some of the other limitations. It also makes me realize that in spite of my conviction that I seem to have elected myself to stand up at times against nasty behavior in public I am not "In Charge" and since nobody has to do what I say I need to pick my confrontations carefully.

Call it a gut feeling, but last night as soon as I pulled in and saw the group, I was very sure that everybody but our hero would melt away if confronted. I'm still trying to pick out the signs/signals I was picking up on that gave me that feeling, but some were they began moving away as I pulled into the parking area and towards "my" space. Sort of as if they knew in their hearts they were not doing right anyway. The other sign I am well aware of is the dropping of the head and low-volume muttering of apologies - as opposed to our hero whose head went way up and he reallly eyeballed me.

Again, thanks for all the feedback. I'll try to post the short-term outcome, but court date is May 25th.

stay safe.

skidmark

Bo Hunter

April 6, 2005, 08:39 AM

I myself am just a young buck of 29, and carrying or not, I don't think I would have confronted 6 guys that were drinking in the manner that you did. I think I would have asked them to move so I could get into my apartment, and then said something to the effect of "I've had a long night, and need to get some sleep, could you guys move it somewhere else?"

I don't really know anything about your situation, where you live, or the company it keeps - so perhaps your particular situation might have dictated the response. Of course, I'm not a former Prison guard who has worked with much worse ratio's of the same types of bad guys my whole life either...

I actually had similar problems at an apartment complex I lived in. For some reason, there were 8-10 Mexicans (I'm not being racist, they were in fact Mexican), that for some reason, always wanted to hang around my front door, and around my living room windows. Management would do nothing. They didn't really cause problems, and more than anything, they just annoyed me by being there. Leaning against my living room windows, etc. I never said anything as I knew it wouldn't accomplish much, other than possibly my apartment getting broken into (pretty simple schedules, gone by 8am, home by 7pm every day), or my tires slashed or vehicle destroyed. So, I simply looked for a new place to live and got out of that dump....

Congrats for diffusing a situation and getting a "BG" off the street. I use quotes, because other than hanging out and sharing a bottle, were they really doing anything wrong until you told them to get rid of it?

swjr72

April 6, 2005, 10:15 AM

Agree with Twycross You dont want the BG getting that close
After the 1st Verbal command he has the option to retreat comply or face action FBI stats show BG can close 21' in 3 seconds
If he had really wanted to cause you bodily harm he prob could have being within 2' of you
Other than that sounds like BG had an attitude and prob was looking for trouble

Wraith

April 6, 2005, 10:23 AM

Why should you put away your CCW? I don't understand why the LEO would ask that of you in the first place.

I hope you know I was being sarcastic with the 12 gauge comment.

Kilroy

April 6, 2005, 10:46 AM

Moving forward and ordering the suspect around (as seen by a jury) would not put you in the best light. No matter what you think of things and how they should be...

Call it a gut feeling

Guess your best won't stand up very well in court. You don't know who you are dealing with and what their history/record/state of mind is going to be.

skidmark

April 6, 2005, 10:59 AM

Why should you put away your CCW? I don't understand why the LEO would ask that of you in the first place.

I hope you know I was being sarcastic with the 12 gauge comment.

And here I was hoping that a 12guage was going to show up. :>(

Officer friendly asked me to put away my CCW because he was asking me to go down the street to where the BG was, there were many other cops there, he did not want me to suddenly become confrontational towards the guy that just threatened to kill me, and he was generally concerned that if I had a gun it might go "bang" and hurt somebody. In other words, because 'only cops should have guns" I guess.

As to why I agreed? 1) Because I did not feel there was an immediate threat possibility at that moment; 2) because I had a BUG in the car; and 3) because I did not feel I needed to waste my time and deteriorate my rapport with Offirer F. by arguing with him about it. Please note the stress on #2.

Just to give praise where praise is due, Officer F. was doing a great swivel-head lookout all during the time I was sitting in my vehicle writing out my statement. Not only did he scan the area, he used his Maglight & spotlight to sweep 360 several times, as well as always moving around his or my vehicle to put them between him and where he was shining the light. And he never stood next to the driver-side window - either he was trying to make sure I did not get backlighted or he was just keeping away from the primary target possibility.

I'm stymied till at least 1500 on getting ID info on the BG. For some reason all the records that currently exist are classified as non-public. The Major in charge of the Uniformed Bureau understands why I want the info & said he will contact Officer F. about contacting me right after rollcall. If it all works out I will go home tonight knowing who the BG is and be able to track his status.

stay safe.

skidmark

skidmark

April 6, 2005, 11:08 AM

Kilroy -

Moving forward and ordering the suspect around (as seen by a jury) would not put you in the best light. No matter what you think of things and how they should be...

Quote:
Call it a gut feeling

Guess your best won't stand up very well in court. You don't know who you are dealing with and what their history/record/state of mind is going to be.

Never advanced on BG - only stood my ground. Agree that is not the most tactically appropriate thing to do, but retreat into the car was not available and moving back would only put me in the open with nothing between me & the rest of the group, as well as move from light to shadow.

Agree that I did not know who he is or what his history & state of mind were. But how many of us do know that till afterwards? I made a decision to take a stand, and got away with it. Given that I will probably do the same in the future, I wanted to hear what glaring errors I made and what I could do better. We all agree that let him get way too close, and I admit that the only reason I did not draw down on him was bad thinking. However, some experience with the "type" and with the hand-waving vs fists balled up scenario colored my actions. I do not say what I did will work for others, or will work next time if even only 1 variable is different.

Let's take what DID happen, as it happened, and critique me on that basis. emember, if I had the advantage last night of everybody's hindsight I'd probably be talking to my lawyer about a shooting incident, if not a pepperspraying. As it happened, I walked away "clean" and the BG is temporarily off the street.

stay safe.

skidmark

XavierBreath

April 6, 2005, 02:37 PM

I usually don't armchair quarterback these things, but since you asked..... :)

Haley - I do not understand "Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong." Help me out by giving me some insight to what you are getting at.
This was some very good advice. Nobody on this forum or elsewhere knows the sublties of the situation like yourself. Haley gave you good advice for examining the situation yourself. The gun you carry only gives you the ability to save your life. It gives you no extra rights, and no extra protection from harm. Of course, everyone should have the right to go into their home without a confrontation with hoodlums. That is not what I'm getting at. Ask yourself the question honestly, and examine the situation.

I myself am just a young buck of 29, and carrying or not, I don't think I would have confronted 6 guys that were drinking in the manner that you did. I think I would have asked them to move so I could get into my apartment, and then said something to the effect of "I've had a long night, and need to get some sleep, could you guys move it somewhere else?"
I think Bohunter spoke some words of wisdom that were overlooked. One you. Six of them. That's ballsy. When you made your request, they feigned apologetic compliance. Then they made a request that you were not prepared to reciprocate. They knew what they were doing when they did this. Either you would let them abuse your cell phone or you would "dis" them and give the hero a chance to be the big man. They were not prepared for you to be able to defend yourself.

Bohunter's suggestion was not so much of a demand as a request. It is not as confrontational. It, too, may have had the same result, but it does not "dis" these cretins quite so much.

I don't know, a lot of it will depend on the hero cretin you are pressing charges against, but in a lot of instances he would be back on the streets in 24 hours with a wounded reputation to restore. I'm not saying what you did was wrong. I'm not saying what they did was OK. I am saying that the way things are is quite a bit different than the way they should be. I'd watch my 6 for a while. I have a feeling you will see these folks again. They know where you live. You are now on the defensive, and at a disadvantage if they want to engage in social discourse again. That could have been avoided by a little more discretion at the outset.

All that being said, I have to commend you for taking a stand to clean up a problem that is your landlord's responsibility. Your landlord needs to clean up his building. Hopefully you have contacted him.

I hope it works out for you.

skidmark

April 6, 2005, 03:09 PM

XavierBreath -

Thanks for clearing up Haley's question. Took me a while to understand it.

What would I do differently if I was not armed? Have not given it a long think, but think I would not have done anything differently.

I have 1 way in & out of the apartment, as the back door is not accessable from the street. Park in the same spot right in front of the door all the time. 3 possible ways to get to the complex, all with great lines of sight all the way around. I will be upping my awareness until well after court the end of May.

stay safe.

skidmark

IronGeek

April 6, 2005, 03:17 PM

Whenever I've helped out the police by ID'ing a perp, I've always sat in the passenger or back seat of the officer's squad car, rode with them to where the suspect was being detained/questioned, & ID'ed him from the car with the headlights shining into the BG's eyes. I wouldn't want the BG to see me, my car, or anything else that might clue him up that I was the "little bird" in question.

I had a similar experience going back to my truck in a seedy neighborhood after visiting with a friend. There were three very "thuggish" guys leaning on my truck around the driver's side door. I had my hand in my front pocket, with my belt knife under my wrist, on the ready. I walked past my truck & approached the driver door from the back so as not to have my back to anyone when opening the door.

"'Scuse me, fellas," I said, and they dispersed. Of course, I think it was largely due to the ever-presence of my 90lb pitbull trotting along at my side. He tends to make BG's part like the Red Sea. :D

It's nearly impossible to get a CCW in the part of California where I live, but sometimes I feel like I should carry anyway...

Bo Hunter

April 6, 2005, 03:48 PM

Xavier made me think of something else. He mentioned watching your six and expect a reintroduction to Mr. BadAss. I would also watch your 12 when entering your apartment for a while. It would be much easier for them to break into the back door (knowing you never use it) and lie in wait for you to come home. As the saying goes, "Revenge is a dish best served cold" and I wouldn't put it past people with nothing better to do to case you, and your apartment, and ambush you, or worse yet, perform the ever popular drive by....

skidmark

April 6, 2005, 04:08 PM

Officer Friendly & I finally connected a few minutes ago. Our hero told the magistrate that he woulds never make the pretrial hearing (1100 this AM) so was held w/o bond for pretrial. The judge has him held w/o bond till trial 5/25. My assaukt charge + five (5) :eek: other warrants. I'm off to see the Magistrate to see how I can access the records.

FWIW, my six will be so well watched it will shine. My 3, 9 and 12 will also be glowing as I brush past them. I'm thinking about getting a motion-sensor alarm to put in the car, but right now my mind says "who cares" unless I'm in it.

stay safe.

skidmark

Rojoe67

April 6, 2005, 04:28 PM

I still give you an (A) for your ability. Some points are worth rereading above too. I know as days go by your thoughts of this event will come and go. It takes some real balls to do what you did and nothing wrong with it. I would likely have done a few things different but I wasn't there and it isn't fair to try to guess the total flavor of the moment with out having lived it. You do need to take an extra second to insure your environment when coming and going.
I still think situation dictates reaction. Text book this -and training that -are nice to have in the back of your mind. Knowlege is power and so is thinking on your feet at a drop of the hat. That said I would rather have a edge more of brain smarts than book smarts. Knock on wood it's kept me alive a few times in the past.... ;)

Take care and becareful out there ;)

FrankDrebin

April 6, 2005, 04:58 PM

Only two things I see: Telling them what to do instead of asking at first, and staying in that neighborhood if you're still there. You're only going to get grief in that place.

skidmark

April 6, 2005, 09:24 PM

FrankDrebin wrote "Only two things I see: Telling them what to do instead of asking at first, and staying in that neighborhood if you're still there. You're only going to get grief in that place."

Frank, I agree that rolling up & commanding some drunken stranger to do whatever I say is not tactically cool. But please read my original post. I "asked". I've gone over that several times in my head today. I am sure I "asked" as opposed to "told" them to move.

As for staying in the neighborhood - I need to say I'm getting a bit cranky about being told the thing to do is move away instead of standing my ground. I've taken what I consider to be reasonable precautions and hardened my defenses. 24 hours later there are no thugs outside my place challenging me to step outside, and whikle I was away today nobody busted out any windown or otherwise trashed my apartment.

I'm not trying to be a hero, and I certainly do not want to "protect" my lasndlord's property - unless he wants to pay me my current hourly rate of pay and will front the recertification as a security guard. I am not and do not want to be the sheepdog for the rest of the neighborhood. But last night I decided that I wasa not going to allow thise persons to stand between me and my door and delay/prevent me from going into my home.

If it happens again tomorrow I will have to decide all over again. Situational awareness and scene assessment will guide me in whatever I do. Just because I got away with it yesterday does not mean I will get away with it again tomorrow. I know that.

stay safe.

skidmark

JohnKSa

April 6, 2005, 09:48 PM

I probably would have kept my mouth shut, but that's really more of a comment on my personality than an indictment of your actions.

I think that it was probably a good thing overall to comment to them. Although it MAY have generated a situation, it's not 100% sure that the situation might not have come about anyway.

Besides, it's good for people like you encountered to know that they do not live in a vacuum and that they can not simply do as they please without consequences. Teaching them the lesson is not an easy thing to do, but it is something that SHOULD be done.

I also agree with you about not moving. My father got into a similar situation years ago in his neighborhood when it began to go downhill. He could have moved, but that's not the kind of man he is. He visited every neighbor and spoke with them about the problems. He got their agreement to help him report problems to the police rather than ignore them. They ended up taking one of the more problematic persons in the area to court before it was over. It was hard at first, but over time, the neighborhood was much improved and the troublemakers moved instead.

At some point, we have to make a stand. If we simply move when things get bad, the scum win a small victory, but more importantly we leave behind the people who can't move. Elderly/retired people and the financially strapped can't always just pick up and move when a neighborhood degrades. They can end up trapped in a bad situation that only gets worse when everyone else deserts them.

Dwight55

April 6, 2005, 10:20 PM

Personally, . . . gotta hand it to you, . . . you did a lot better than I probably would have.

About the time he came around the car (after I would have told him to stay on the other side, . . . and then a second time told him to back off), . . . he would have seen the business end of a 1911 leveled at the second button on his shirt and I would have been screaming, . . . don't make me shoot you.

And if he continued, . . . well.................

I don't have the stamina or repairability at my age to tussel with hoodlums, . . . ask nice, . . . warn, . . . warn a 2nd time, . . . get ready to get down to business is my plan.

Good job, you did.

May God bless,
Dwight

Hayley

April 7, 2005, 12:42 AM

Skidmark: it is to your credit that you care enough to solicit opinions, and sort-out the situation you found yourself in...and to take them in the constructive spirit they are offered.

I'll defer to XavierBreath's remarks, which are more clear than mine. It was late, and in reading your post, I just thought of my personal rule of thumb--to act as if I was unarmed; to wit, I don't do anything while carrying that I wouldn't do unarmed. I didn't mean necessarily that you did anything wrong, just to use that as a frame of reference to reflect on what happened.

In any case, I hope none of us has any difficulty justifying our actions if ever we are called to account for using deadly force.

FrankDrebin

April 7, 2005, 06:13 AM

As I got out of the car - hand on CCW in right front pocket & the car between me & them - I casually asked them to put the bottle away or take it inside, as there had been problems with litter.

You didn't ask them to get away from your door so you could get in, you asked them to put away their bottle, etc. What does their drinking have to do with litter? You implied that you assumed that they were going to throw their bottle on the ground when they were done with it. You pretty much insulted them, and respect is very important to young street "gentelmen" who alread have a sense of entitlement to respect ("you owe me respect because I'm a man") and feel disenfranchised enough as it is. In other words, you "stepped on their manhood", or at least of of their "manhoods". You pretty much blatantly accused them of being "litterers". They likely were, but that probably wasn't a good way to win friend and influence them.

As the other guy mentioned, I probably would have asked them if you could get into your apt. and not made any remarks at all about their drinking or their bottle.

If the neighborhood is declining, as I inferred it is from you post, I doubt if you're going to change the quality of the neighborhood by staying, or even delay its decline significantly, but if you decide to stay, I suggest you carry the phone number of a good lawyer. Also, the stress of living there will take time off of your life.

skidmark

April 7, 2005, 09:47 AM

First the news -

Got the info on our hero. He has not been a good person lately:
Trespass
Destroy property/monument (as in cemetary)
Petit Larceny
Concealed weapon - I checked on this -- it was a boxcutter (comments later)
Capias FTA
Assault & Battery (my incident)
Drive on suspended license
Drive on suspended license (a second charge? )
Operate uninsured vehicle
Operate uninsured vehicle (another second charge?? )
Drive on suspended license (no - a third time? )
Expired registration
Misdemeanor FTA

3 felony charges (#2., 4 & 5 above), plus #13 is a Class 1 Misdemeanor which is for all intents & purposes a felony.

Now the comment about the concealed weapon charge/boxcutter --
Again, I admit I got lucky. All I can say is keep your eyes open & learn what to focus on & what not to bother with right then. For me, once I saw the hands were empty my focus was more on his shoulders than the hands themselves.

I think I'm going to ask that this thread be closed now. I thank everybody for their constructive critiqes of my tactical and not-so-tactical behaviors under the circumstances trhat I described. I appreciate all of the wishes for my continued good health and desires that my living siutuation be in a place of peace and tranquility. I ask that you respect my decision, based on current circumstances and my personal thoughts/values, to stay as opposed to moving away.

stay safe.

skidmark

GUNSMOKE45441

April 7, 2005, 10:12 AM

Skidmark
Congratulations, I think you did just fine, if everyone runs away there will never be an end what the BGS think they can get away with.
Rather than come back to mess with you these cowards will probably spread the word that this is not a good place to be. WELL DONE!!!!!

branham91

April 8, 2005, 10:41 PM

It sound like you did the right thing. I have a friend who is a cop and asked him about CCW and police. He said the best thing to do is tell the officer and show your CCW liscense. Don't worry about the past and how the situation was handled. This wise ass seems like a trouble maker. So I would be prepared. With 6 of his hoodlum buddies you may consider a high capacity magazine. I would put effort into planning for a home invasion once this guy gets out of jail. The motion detector idea is great. I put one at the top of my steps to my bedroom incase someone tries to sneak in while I am asleep. Keep a cell phone (charging by your bed) and a flashlight and light stick by the bed also. The light stick can be placed in your window for the police to see easily after 911 is dialed.
I would employ the wait tecnique. If the alarm goes off. Grap your weapon (HK usp 40) 13 round mag. Roll off the bed grap the shotgun and wait for the human to enter your sight

"See you on the flip side" Boondock Saints

armedandsafe

April 9, 2005, 11:38 AM

When I'm setting up a home for interior defense for a client I put motion sensor lights in every room except the bedroom. The theory is that there is light wherever there is a human, but the principals in the house are in the dark.

Once, back quite a few years ago. I would be awakened at about 23:00 each night by the light in the living room turning on. After the second or third false alarm, I set watch at the end of the hallway. At about te right time, I heard a movement in the kitchen. Then the light in the living room turned on and I saw my big tom cat coming down the hallway. He would come in the cat door, jump up on the end table where the motion sensor was mounted and jump down in front of it, triggering the light. :D I moved the sensor. He was disappointed.

Pops

crashresidue

April 12, 2005, 04:53 AM

Cheers,

I know that you asked for this thread to be stopped - but it wasn't - so here I go!

I had a "similar" situation, happen years ago - and I handled it totally differently than you - yours' was the BETTER way.

I confronted them (gang members) and displayed my weapon - stating that I had 14 rounds, plus another clip in my pocket.

"Big boy" stated "I don't have a gun" - I responded "You will when the cops get here". He really had one, it was just "hidden" so I couldn't see it. At that point, with the crime in the neighborhood - I didn't care if he had one or not. HE would go down - weapon in hand!!!

I have taken "life" - it's tough, but you'll survive it!

I wouldn't do that scenario(sp?) again, but back then - yea, I'd have "popped" the dude.

Maybe it's just me, but the times I've "shot to kill" - I was talking to the people on the ground, and I don't have any problems with what I did or what I experienced. To me, it carries forward.

"Sorry dude - you feel "dis'ed" - well my Smith doesn't care WHAT you feel! I "point" - you're dead!" YOUR call.

Mama used to tell me that "violence doesn't solve anything" - well, Mama LIED! I found that out in Nam, Rhodesia, Ache - everywhere else in the world you want to look! "Violence" works!" Make it work for YOU!

If you can keep from starting it - then "Good on ya" - but don't plan on it! "Hope for the best, plan for the worst".

"Two feet - DEAD dude! Sorry Skid - that's just the way it is.

Your way was/is better - I just worry about "later" - when he gets "free" - you gonna feel better when he's around and p*ssed?

"Bang - dead" - works for me!

cr

skidmark

April 12, 2005, 09:32 AM

crashresidue,

Know what you mean. Been there, done some of that, and have patched the holes in the souvenier t-shirt a time or two.

I know the risks I was taking, and was probably more stupid that anyone has called me for taking them. Especially on the let-him-get-up-in-my-face issue.

But I ask you (and everyone else) - what do you do about a guy in your face, talking loud and waving his hands in the air, if he has not yet made a verbal threat and you do not see his position or hand-waving as threatening gestures? I told the guy to back off or get sprayed. He backed off. I got lucky. :)

FYI - tonight will be 1 week, and all that I have had happen so far is 2 neighbors coming over as I was out of the car, to say "thanks" and to talk about the fact that since the encounter there have been no people hanging out on the corner after dark.

If, and when, the BG gets out of jail I will deal with whatever happens as it happens. In the past week I have put in a bit more range time, and a few extra practice sessions on drawing from concealment, from sitting in front of the TV, from laying in bed, and from getting into & out of the car. I'll also put in a shameless plug for the two different brands of laser trainers I have. Using them saves on ammo and at least once on the cost of replacing a car window.

stay safe.

skidmark

IronGeek

April 12, 2005, 02:38 PM

Crash, I agree. You could've handled that much better. Was there any dialogue before you started brandishing a weapon? Why not be tactful instead of straight-up threatening? Your Mom was right: violence never solved anything. Do you think this guys friends will ever forget you if you gun their buddy down? Violence begets violence. Just look at the Middle East.

John Ringo

April 12, 2005, 05:52 PM

It's hard in some situations to tell how you are going to act/react unless you are there. I know this better than anybody. I am obviously on your side here because you are not the BG. Those guys were probably nothing more than a bunch of bottom-feeders. God knows, I live around enough of those pathetic wastes of life here in Alexandria. They are always out on the street from about 8 PM to 3 AM with their loud ghetto-babes "hooting" and "screeching" trying to attract attention. More times than not they WANT you to start trouble with them. I deal with this crap everyday of the week. I hate it.

The situation is done & over. You came out on-top. Good for you. The only thing that I would be wary of in your situation is provoking someone who is obviously wanting you to say something to them so that they can pounce. They don't listen to the cops, so it is doubtful that they would listen to anyone else. Some people are always looking for a fight.

Be safe....

JR

LAK

April 19, 2005, 05:51 AM

Everything sounds good to me - except that 2 feet is too close. Even if you weigh 250 and your hero weighed 105 - it is too close. He could have stuck you with a knife or pulled some other surprize on you at that distance.

But, you took what was one of several calculated risks by letting him do so - and it paid off for you in the end. You could have sprayed him before that, and risked his friends saying - swearing in court - that "that's not how it all happened". Or you could have retreated at the risk of creating some some distance between you and your SO which I personally would have rejected at all costs.

PythonGuy

May 26, 2005, 03:00 PM

skidmark

May 26, 2005, 08:45 PM

You are watching too many Charles Bronson movies, what you did is vigilantism. Its your life, if you can live with the consequences and not harm innocent civilians, thats on you. That gun you carry is to protect you when danger comes after you, not when you provoke it, which you clearly did. If you want to fight crime, become a LEO and do it the right way.

PythonGuy,

Please explain how you 1) define what I did as vigilantism, and 2) how you feel I provoked the incident. I am seriously and earnestly requesting information in order to review what happened and see what I might need to do better/differently in the future.

However, there are "exceptions" I need to let you know exist in the equation. They are that I believe that the castle doctrine extends to my ability to enter and/or leave my dwelling in peace, that permitting bad behavior only invites more bad behavior, and that if someone wants to take exception to anything I say to the point of a direct threat against my life I will believe them fully and respond based on that belief.

That being said, please explain to this confused person how you come to see me as a vigilante and an imitaror of Charles Bronson in any of his "Death Wish #x" movies. If you can convince me, or at least make me look closer at the possibility, I will benefit from your words.

stay safe.

skidmark

Mr. James

May 27, 2005, 12:52 PM

You are watching too many Charles Bronson movies, what you did is vigilantism.

Now, c'mon. That's downright silly. All he did was ask a bunch of hooligans to take their illegal drinking elsewhere. And skidmark is right - if he tolerates little insults, he'll find far greater ones will follow. skidmark didn't look for trouble; trouble came a-knockin'.

skidmark, FWIW, again, aside from letting "our hero" close to two feet, I give ya an A. Your neighborhood is a better place with you in it. With that in mind, stay safe!

God bless.

PythonGuy

May 27, 2005, 05:17 PM

Skidmark (horrible nick by the way :) is not a cop, but he can carry a gun. If his life is threathened he can protect himself, to go around and tell punks they should get rid of their drinks crosses the line. HE should have called the cops, he got lucky this time, but they all know him now and if he wins a battle and loses the war is it worth it? Is his life worth it? If it is to him, cool, he's a big boy and can take care of himself, I just think he is looking for trouble. Now if they broke into his house with him there armed and he defended himself, that is a different story. You Dirty Harry's do what you want, common sense should be your guide. One poster said it perfectly, he should do what he would do if he were NOT carrying a gun, thats excellent logic.

skidmark

May 28, 2005, 05:34 AM

If his life is threathened he can protect himself, to go around and tell punks they should get rid of their drinks crosses the line.

I'll give you some slack and agree, for the sake of discussion, that telling young thugs they ought to behave like civilized individuals when they dispose of their empty beverage containers may be risky. But as you also said, I'm a big boy and can decide to live with the consequences of my own behavior.

I am so flabbergasted I can't even begin to work out a connection from "telling punks they should get rid of their drinks" to "vigilantism."

Not to mention you have misread my post - I never told them to get rid of their drinks. I asked them to dispose of their empties, when they got to be empties, somewhere besides on the lawn or in the parking lot.

I guess my REAL crime was that I asked them to be something they were and may never be - members of society. I should have understood that any indication on my part of disagreement or non-support for their non-conforming behavior is morally, logically, legally and tactically inappropriate, and should have retreated and waited until they were through hanging about in front of my front door before even thinking about going into my home.

I guess the problem is that of all the nationalities that make up my family history, I just never had any relatives that were French. (My apologies to most of the folks who live in France, but you are the stereotype of the day for spineless collaborators.) Or maybe the problem is that I have learned, through many courses taken at the College of Hard Knocks, that whatever level of wrong you tolerate only supports the next level of wrong being done (give them an inch, they'll take a mile).

How about this as an alternate scenario: I come home & see the same scence at the beginning. I ask them to step away from in front of my door and properly dispose of their bottles when they get finished drinking. They step away, although in varying levels of volume muttering and cussiong about that #^(*&$$#@@!$ honky old fat man telling them what to do. Nobody threatens anybody with physical violence, nobody assaults anybody with fists or bottles, and the whole thing is over. As I see it, my behavior has not changed at all. The only change is their response to me.

PythonGuy, I wonder why I am expending energy & bandwidth trying to explain this to you.

stay safe.

skidmark

Skidmark (horrible nick by the way This from someone whose nickname is PythonGuy? What's that saying about the pot & the kettle?