Rampaging Animal - Scenario

[Duxman]

True story: Just happened to my friends in an equistrian event in Leesburg, VA:

You are enjoying a beautiful Sunday morning in Leesburg Virginia watching an equistrian jumping event. You are tailgating with your family, kids, and 2 more couples.

Suddenly a jocky falls off his horse, and the huge animal goes out of control and starts running uncontrollably towards your family endangering the lives of 3 toddlers, wives, and 2 puppies. The horse is exactly 40 feet and charging straight for you and your family. The fallen jockey is not exactly behind the animal but there could be civilians (unknown at this time) on the backside of the rampaging horse.

You have your CC weapon on you, plus if you carry a car gun, its in your vehicle.

My friend was unarmed, so he started waiving his arms and shouting to distract the horse. It broke through the protective wall, stepped on his ankle but he was able to divert it enough that it did not charge the kids and wives plus the puppies were safe. :p

IF I were the person present, I probably would have drawn my CC weapon and emptied the magazine (8 rounds of .40 S&W) into the animal at point bank range (at a downward angle) and then dived out of the way. :eek:

Gentlemen your thoughts?

[tork]

no way... far too many people around, and that horse is worth more than i have.

there has to be a better answer... throw chairs, duck and cover etc. pick the kids up so they cant get trampled and hope for the best.

besides, anyone gets hurt, and you would now own a new horse

[fwcofficer]

Thats subjective, was there cover around? Maybe you could get into your car, especially since they were tailgating. I think the easiest thing to do would be to get into your car. I will save you from legal trouble. I don't think the owner of that horse would be too happy if you killed their horse.

[mete]

I don't think a 40 ,unless you get a very lucky shot would do much to stop a rampaging horse. Remember that the military picked a 500 gr 45-70 load to stop indians' horses !! The best thing to do would be to get out of the way.

[Duxman]

You guys are correct. Rethinking my potential acions, I would probably help get the kids out of the way and into cover. Thanks for the input. :)

[20cows]

You can't shoot a rampaging horse at a downward angle if your on the same ground level it's on. If a horse is just running scared, it will do a fair job of avoiding obsticles. Any damage will be in passing and though very frightening, hopefully not tremendously serious. The best thing to do is get out of the way, or do what your friend did to protect others.

The seriously dangerous horse is an angry horse. You can tell this by his trying to paw or kick. He can only kick you if you're too close behind him and ususally will only try once or so. If he's really ticked he'll face you and paw at you with the front feet. This is DANGEROUS. If he raises up on his hind legs to paw you with the front feet, this is REAL DANGEROUS and it's time to shoot, not just once. This time, however the angle of choice is upward. I'd go for the neck, just below the skull, through the throat. If you have enough gun, this ought to work. (If you have enough gun).

[Russ93YJ]

here in NC we cant carry a weapon to a place that charges adimssion

[Capt Charlie]

Well, as a life long horseman, I can only say you'd have to shoot me too, 'cause gentlemen, there'd be smoke & fire coming from my nostrals. OK, this is just a scenerio, so calm down Charlie. I understand that a lot of people don't know horses, so here's the reader's digest version. Except for among themselves, horses are among the most benign animals going. They are almost always flight, not fight animals (at least with people). The only times horses become aggressive with people is when a mare is protecting her foal, and a stud protecting his mares. There are other rare cases, but these usually involve neurological problems. Some with spirit learn to hate people if they've been abused. I wrangle horses (on the side) for a 4200 acre ranch with over 200 horses, including studs. The studs have never bothered me, and only one mare has really tried to bite me, and I was handling her foal (imprinting). I've round-penned hundreds of horses and a lot of 'em rear and paw early on, but simply throwing my hat in his face has always been enough to back them down. This is almost always a fear reaction, not anger. A horse's body language is rich and complex, but the one easily recognizable sign of an angry horse is the ears pinned flat back. I'm not talking about just facing backwards, I mean pinned tight against his neck. There's others, but that's the easy one.

So much for equine behavior 101. In your scenerio, your kids are at risk. Thoroughbreds are a fiesty and high strung breed, and a lot of race horses are studs. I agree that no matter what, no matter who, no matter how, no matter why, family ALWAYS comes first! Step in front of your family, rip off your shirt, jacket, anything you can wave around, and wave it over your head and in front of you like a wild man. Unless the horse is blind or frightened beyond all reason, this WILL work! Besides, like somebody else said, unless it's a county fair race, registered Thoroughbreds from winning bloodlines START at 6 figures and sometimes go to 8. Payroll deduction for a thousand years, anyone? :eek:

[TallPine]

Thanks, Capt Charlie ;)

I couldn't believe that anyone would think they would need to shoot a frightened horse, but I guess that's how far most people are from the country anymore. :(

I would probably try to calm the horse down instead of scaring it more ...

[Trip20]

What would be the "calm down" method for a horse charging you & yours at 40mph with people screeming in all directions?

[Edward429451]

No way. Try to get the fam out of harms way and pray/hope for the best.

[pamick]

The headline would read: "Crazed Gunman Opens Fire at Family Event; Kills Valuable Horse and Causes Widespread Panic"
What Capt Charlie said is absolutly gospel.

[Capt Charlie]

The reason that the horse is going 40 mph is BECAUSE of those screaming, running people. It's going to take time and quiet to calm that horse. IF you could grab the reins (doubtful at that point), you could stop him... if you know what to do with the reins (grabbing & jerking them would just make the situation worse). Reins and bit control the head. Control the head & you have control over the whole horse. Horses respond to very subtle body language in people. If you're movements are quick and jerky, forget it. All but an old nag or experienced trail horse will shy and pull back every time. The trick with the reins is to go WITH the horse, applying only slight, intermittent pressure to slow him, and releasing the pressure when you gain compliance. It's called check and release. Believe me, you can't fight a thousand pounds of frightened, solid muscle, but a calm voice and gentle hands can do miracles with a frightened horse. A horse will almost always take the path of least resistance. He'll try for the most open path through the crowd he can find. In the mean time, track officials know this can happen occasionally, and will have people enroute to handle the situation. In any case, there's no way you can justify shooting that weapon in this situation.

[Peaceful Henry]

I'm no horseman, but I know horses are prey animals (hunted by other animals) and their main defense is their speed. So they RUN! They don't want to trample you; you'll slow them down. They want to get away. Substitute the horse for a wild turkey and you'll get the picture. (Any turkey hunters out there?)

Now, how about a different story, only this time with an angry dog.

[Topthis]

Or how about a scenario with Green Aliens from Pluto...running wild, trying to force feed fresh fruit and vegetables to all the humans they come into contact with....and you happen to be carrying your fully auto M-16 along with ten 30 round magazines!! Oh, and you happen to have in your backpack, a Titan Missile Launcher with a Nuclear warhead that can MIRV into 8.

[MassHunter2190]

For the horse situation:
If it's more trotting then running, i'd probably get ahead of the children 10 yards or so and try to grab the reins to stop it while talking to it in a soft, gentle voice which would help calm it down. But if it were full blown charging me, and i just knew that I, and my family too, were going to get trampled, i'd probably fire off 1 or 2 rounds into the air to try to re-direct its path. I dont think i could shoot a horse.

Dog situation:
Well, theres no way in hell your going to calm a pitbull, or any other dog bred to fight using a soft, gentle voice. The keyword in that sentence was, incase u missed it, bred to fight. And you aren't going to outrun one either. So i guess i would look for the nearest cover and make an attempt to get to that. If that failed and i found myself on my back, or if there was no cover, a warning shot over its head, and only if i absolutely HAD to, a shot in its chest. If my family or any kids were there, a shot over its head and then a kick in the head, then wait to see what it does after that.

[Trip20]

Thanks for the lesson on horse behavior. You've no doubt forgotten more about horses than I'll ever know.

You had no need to convince me not to shoot the horse. That, for me, would always be the last resort for any animal.

I just thought the whole idea of "calming down" a horse in the scenerio which started this thread, was a tad humorous...

In this scenerio it's already too late to calm the horse down. It's already charging full speed, crazed out of it's mind - and like you stated - it's due to the ensuing chaos of people, kids, and madness (again this is something I would agree with using basic common sense).

To think you can stand idly still while it runs close enough so you can then gain mastery of the reins (again, in this scenerio) is something that is quite impossible (at least to the average-joe) and quite funny.

I'm not going to sit the horse down in front of an episode of Dr. Phil and ask it what the matter.

I'm going to get my kids scooped up, my wife in tow, and behind whatever obstacle I can find in close proximity.

I'm not pulling out my weapon until I know there's nothing left to do. Same as I would do in this scenerio with a dog, pig,...etc.

[Capt Charlie]

Hmmm. I donno, Topthis. You'd probably end up being sued by PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Aliens). :D

[Trip20]

Hey Charlie, off the thread topic a little here... sorry.... but what's the -P mean in your 870-P?

[Capt Charlie]

Reasonable, sensible, and true. Besides, I don't think the horse would fit on Dr. Phil's couch. :D There was actually a segment on one of those amazing video programs where this happened a while back, and someone did manage to grab the reins and stop the horse, but there's no doubt anyone trying it would be at considerable risk. I think that would have to be a split second and opportunity call.

[Capt Charlie]

Looks like we're posting at the same time here. Night owl, huh? :) The 870-P was designed for law enforcement. It has the extended magazine tube (8 shot), pistol grip and folding stock. Great hallway gun! I added a tactical light and laser sight. (Laser sight on a shotgun???) Yup. Intimidation factor. The scarier the gun, the less likelihood I'll actually have to use it.

[LAK]

If the family was around a vehicle - especially a pickup - simply pick up the toodlers and throw them (uh, gently) into the back. Everyone else jump in or move close to the vehicle. Animals are pretty smart and although they might bump or inadvertantly strike objects they are unlikely to run headlong into a vehicle.

I wouldn't waste my time shooting at a fleeing and panicked horse with a handgun even if there were no bystanders behind it. Better to grab a blanket or any other big cloth and wave it around to get their attention, shouting, bang a cooking pot on the bumper or bodywork, or throw things at it.

[pointfiveoh]

Capt. I have heard that if a horse is running towards you, or even if a group of them are and you just stand still they will all avoid you. How true is this? It seems reasonable given how docile you said that horses generally are.

[XavierBreath]

I would think that the safest place for you and the kiddies would be UNDER the truck. Horses can manage to jump into the bed of a truck, but I would wager none have ever rampaged underneath a truck.

[TallPine]

Better to grab a blanket or any other big cloth and wave it around to get their attention, shouting, bang a cooking pot on the bumper or bodywork, or throw things at it.
Well, those are all good ways to NOT CALM the horse :rolleyes: and cause it to run even more and possibly run over somebody else. :(

You can sometimes calm a horse by talking to it in a low, steady voice: "easy boy - whoa, boy - easy ...." etc .... It all depends on how hard and fast it is running. If you are terrified of the horse to start with, forget it.

[stephen426]

I'm sorry to say but some of these responses are absurd.

How are you going to grab the reins of a horse charging at you at 40 mph? How are you going to calm down a charging horse? By talking gently to it? How long would it take for a charging horse to cover 40 feet? How do you intend on grabbing the wife and kiddies before the horse covers that distance?

I'm not advocating shooting the animal either but some of these responses are crazy. Horses may be good at avoiding obstacles but is it possible it will trample your kids when it blows past?

For those who say fire a warning shot into the air... where do you think the bullet will end up? What goes up must come down. When a bullet comes down, it may end up killing someone. If a warning shot must be fired, shoot it into the ground or into a tree if there is one nearby.

I'm not knowlegable about horses but I know that they are very powerful and fast animals. I would get in between the family and the horse and try to divert it by yelling and waving my arms. I would also be yelling to everyone else to get behind the truck. I just hope there would be enough time to do something because 40 feet is nothing for a horse.

[TallPine]

How are you going to calm down a charging horse? By talking gently to it?
Well, NOT by yelling at it and waving my arms :p

I doubt the horse would be running 40 mph if it's not actually in a race.

A horse won't trample anyone if it has anyplace else to go.

I actually have been nearly run over by a mare that was being chased by a more dominant mare. This was in a pen where I was feeding them. I just pushed myself out of the way with my arms against her oncoming chest, as I had no time to jump away. (I probably did jump at the same time)

[Capt Charlie]

That's true..... MOST of the time. With animals of any kind, the only thing that's for sure is that nothing's for sure :D But the risk is greater with more than one horse. Think of it this way. You're standing in a parking lot and someone is driving a car towards you. Odds are that they'll drive around you. Go with the odds and stand still. But you look through the windshield and see the driver looking down fiddling with the radio or cell phone. Distracted. You've read the signs that this situation is different, and you react accordingly by trying to get the driver's attention while trying to get out of the way. You have to read the signs. I think I can safely say that no horse WANTS to run over you. But if his mind is on other things? Ouch! :eek: If a horse has others running with him, the others are also a distraction to each other, hence the greater risk. I have also heard it said that horses have a very narrow (maybe 10 degrees) zone directly in front of them where they are blind, or at best have only peripheral vision. So say the experts anyhow. So again, you have to gain his attention. Wave the jacket, shirt, beer cooler (minus the beer ;) ), etc., like mad. If you try to duck to the left or right, well, just hope he doesn't duck in the same direction at the same time. Firing a shot into the ground or (God forbid) air won't work. He can't pin the location down and you increase his panic. You have to use a visual signal. I got off on a little bit of a tangent with all the talk about reins, bit, control, ect. Sorry 'bout that. While the opportunity to grab the reins might present itself, it isn't likely. So again, the best thing to do (if there's nothing to get behind) is stand still close to your family and wave that (whatever) like crazy. No matter what you do, remember Murphy's Law. There's no guarentees.

[Trip20]

I'd sacrifice my first born son if the prize horse's name was Rumplestiltskin. :D

[Bullrock]

A horse in the open is not likely to kill or trample anyone, and shooting at it would have been a mistake.

If the horse is charging directly at you do two things. Get something in your hand. Your shirt, your pants, your underwear, your hand, if that's all there is. Move straight toward the charging horse, and aggressively wave the shirt in your hand. The horse will change direction if there is room to do so.

Or get everyone together, get them down, and you provide the on-top cover. The horse will jump over you rather than run into you. On a race track a horse usually has no room, left, right, up, down to avoid a rider if he falls ahead of the horse.

Horses don't get angry! They run on nerves, and can easily panic. Unlike My Friend Ficker, horses usually don't give a damn about people. They do care about themselves, and even in a state of panic, will avoid running into things (and people) if there is room to avoid doing so.

I'm sure this thing happened quickly, and we're all Monday morning quarterbacking. TFL is a place to post opinion's and experience. That's my opinion, and I have the formally broken bones, and the hospital bills to back up the experience.

[Para Bellum]

I was in a similar situation once. A shot straigth into the earth beneth me did the job. My 9x19mm was blastin loud enough to make the beast turn on the spot...

[Lawyer Daggit]

Good scenario.

I definitely would not use a gun- too many risks.

[hdm25]

Besides, like somebody else said, unless it's a county fair race, registered Thoroughbreds from winning bloodlines START at 6 figures and sometimes go to 8. Payroll deduction for a thousand years, anyone?


Uh...how about if the horse killed one of my children? Or more than one? Your horse's owner better have some damned good insurance. Nope. No payroll deduction, Capt.

I have been around horses all my life, though not in any real depth, and while I wouldn't be an advocate of pulling a weapon and blazing away, there is a very real possibility that I would do so if my children were in direct danger and the cost of animal be damned. My children are worth more than 8 figures. I figure that MY bloodline is worth more than the damned horse's. :mad: :rolleyes:

If you really want to debate it, think about a jury making a decision on the case. Someone is bound to have video of it. If not, there's plenty of people who can attest to the fact that a "rampaging" (I'd make sure that my attorney used that word 'cause I like it so much) horse was threatening my two beautiful daughters (they'd be there in the front row in the courtroom in their prettiest little outfits) and that's why I shot it. It's only what a reasonable person would do if faced with harm to one's family.

Alternately, I guess we could show photos of my trampled daughters to the jury while pointing out that the owner of the horse hasn't wanted to settle out of court but has pushed for a trial because he obviously believes that nothing wrong happened...no big deal that my children were killed or maimed by his out-of-control animal.

Like I said, I don't advocate any scenario where you just pull your gun and start shooting. I hate these threads, actually, because a lot of it is just someone's hero fantasies at work, but I would have no problem killing an animal that threatened my family, where that animal was on two legs or four.

[Capt Charlie]

And so would I... if it were NECESSARY. But the whole bloody point I'm trying make here is that it AIN'T necessary! There's too damned many people that are way too quick to go for a gun when there are other solutions. Law enforcement or not, a firearm is the final option. You use it only when all else fails, or when absolutely, positively nothing else will work. Here you have options. Do what I said... several times, and I guarentee you there won't BE any need for an ambulance, or lawsuits, OR THAT DAMNED GUN!

[hdm25]

But Capt Charlie, it all happens so FAST. And I don't have the knowledge of equine psychology that you have. All I know is that my children are in jeopardy. It isn't a matter of a mean horse or anything like that at all. It's a matter of putting down a threat. Of course, a handgun isn't going to do much to a horse, but that's beside the point. The instructions that you are giving amount to a safety/survival lesson in the given circumstance but not everyone knows that or is willing to risk it.

Interesting that the topic has come up, though, because I WAS injured by a horse at the circus when I was a child. It was in a panic and was fleeing away from the cause of the panic and I was just a little kid that it didn't even notice. Nothing major but it could have been worse.

Would a horse injure someone in the given situation? Would the advice work? I hope we don't have to find out.

How about a lion escaped from it's cage at the zoo? Are you a lion psychologist, too? ;)

[LAK]

TallPineWell, those are all good ways to NOT CALM the horse and cause it to run even more and possibly run over somebody else.

You can sometimes calm a horse by talking to it in a low, steady voice: "easy boy - whoa, boy - easy ...." etc .... It all depends on how hard and fast it is running. If you are terrified of the horse to start with, forget it.
Yes; I have worked with horses. In the circumstance as described somebodies else are going to have to look after their own, because my immediate priority is going to be looking after mine.

[Capt Charlie]

Would a horse injure someone in the given situation? Would the advice work? I hope we don't have to find out.

And therein lies the bottom line. Let's just hope that this one never becomes reality.

Lions? Nope. Don't know a thing about 'em, except they're big, mean, & hungry. Personally on this one, I'm opting for a Brittish .600 Nitro Express in full auto, a few grenades, and an RPG. :eek:

How 'bout we merge the two scenerios? Lessee... And here they come down the home stretch. It's Leo in the lead by a nose followed by Simba! No, wait! Leo's thrown and eaten his rider! He's jumped the fence into the crowd! OH MY GOD! THE CARNAGE! THE SCREAMS! :D :D :D

[bastiat]

No shooting, far enough away + rule#4 'be aware of your target and what is behind it' is not met. First priority is to get family to safety away from threat.

Oh wait, according to a poster who just joined today, I shouldn't be stating what I would do in a potential situation because some DA could find it while searching on the internet... :rolleyes:

[Trip20]

Oh wait, according to a poster who just joined today, I shouldn't be stating what I would do in a potential situation because some DA could find it while searching on the internet...
One's post count does not give their post any less credibility. ;)

However, in your defence bastiat, posting something so ridiculous does. :D

[Bullrock]

Too many gun people, not listening to horse people!

They Shoot Horses, Don't They (Staring Jane Fonda & Gig Young)

I'm gone...

[Trip20]

Fonda is a spittoon.

[Bullrock]

I know what she is Trip 20! Name calling isn't my thing. She was in the movie.

[Trip20]

This isn't name callingfor the sake of name calling... :rolleyes:

She seriously got spit on the other day by a vietnam vet. Good for him. :D

[Topthis]

LMAOROLF!!! I had heard that story and about crashed my car I was laughing so hard...seems this guy had been waiting some 35 years to do that. He even had chewing tobacco in his mouth when he did it!!!
With that type of dedication to the fullfilment of his mission...obviously a Marine!!

[faraway]

Wonderful...in addition to a panicked horse, have a panicked wounded horse.

Sometimes methinks there's a bit too much rationalization attempting to find something justifiable to shoot. Usually it's dogs...and normally there, unless it's some mutt mistreated to be psychotic, those can be bluffed down. And the bluffs even work on the stunning collection of miscreant rez mutts here in paradise. (Incidentally some pit bulls were used as therapy dogs for disabled kids,,,so not all were bred to 'kill'.) Bears- black bears are more of a (*(*&^ nuisance than anything else, and usually appropriate precautions will preclude needing to try to kill it. And anyway, usually with the report of a firearm they're bound for the next county. Lions, oopsie, if one of those is after you, probably the first you'll know about it is when it lands on top of you.

Perhaps there could be a few more threads about the glories of punching holes in paper. Or about the wonders of carrying a CCW, and how rare it is to even access it, let alone use it.

But then again, up here in the northern hinterlands...there's too many horses anyway...And they're all big and scary. And the rez mutts, eat kids (or sometimes the kids eat them? Always confused about that one...)
Think my kel tec p-32 is adequete to deal with these free roaming menaces?
Especially before we all disappear into maws red with blood, or have our precious remains trampled into the sodden soil.

[Bullrock]

Hey Faraway, I was going to use some of your post to quote, but it was so damn good, and right on, I would have had to quote your entire post. :D

The only place I'd differ with you is in the carry. The horse described in the scenario is a domestic animal ( as oppossed to the wild mustangs up your way, if there are any left), and there is no excuse for shooting it. A moose (huge wild animal) will charge during rutting season, and I agree regarding the Black Bear, but in the last several years they have become quite pesky here. So when I'm in the wilds I usually carry a .357.

[faraway]

Thanks for the complement.

Back home (central Colorado) used to carry a .357 also. Mainly for signalling (I know it's a dead tradition, but was taught the 3 shots/lost person thing), and for pot meat or etc. Used the report a time or two to convince bears to remove themselves from the porch, or quit various idiot endeavors. Lions, very rarely saw them, usually the Spitz knew they were there, and the presence was later shown by tracks.
Here, a few lions wondering about, some canines which look entirely too close to a wolf, but little in the way of moose. Those usually don't get too far into this part of Montana. Remote place, but many of the potential predator animals here have been shot at so much, that they aren't much of a concern. Plus, although it vexes the ranchers, some here are interested to watch the wolves, lions and such moving back...along with the Buffalo. Symbolic culturally...

In the wilds here, the biggest real concern is the occasional bummer or crankheaded idiot...so in those terms a Makarov, the Kel Tec, or a good dose of sense is all that's needed.

[MilitantBob]

For those who say fire a warning shot into the air... where do you think the bullet will end up? What goes up must come down. When a bullet comes down, it may end up killing someone. If a warning shot must be fired, shoot it into the ground or into a tree if there is one nearby. Not trying to get too horribly off topic, but has there ever been a confirmed report of this happening?
As I understand physics, after the bullet reached the peak of its ascent and began to fall it would have lost all of the kinetic energy given to it by the powder in the cartridge and only be falling as fast as gravity will pull it back to earth. Its just like the whole penny from the empire state building, it might give someone a bit of a bruise on their head, but I doubt it would break skin...

As for the horse, just like in most any other situation, I think gunplay should be reserved for a last resort.

[Randy in Arizona]

If a warning shot must be fired, shoot it into the ground or into a tree

Now you are going to get Earth First on our cases! :rolleyes: They'd rather you shot a bystander than a tree.

[stephen426]

Not trying to get too horribly off topic, but has there ever been a confirmed report of this happening?
As I understand physics, after the bullet reached the peak of its ascent and began to fall it would have lost all of the kinetic energy given to it by the powder in the cartridge and only be falling as fast as gravity will pull it back to earth. Its just like the whole penny from the empire state building, it might give someone a bit of a bruise on their head, but I doubt it would break skin...


Bob, you are right in saying that a bullet has lost all of its kinetic energy when it hits the peak of its ascent. You will have to calculate how high that is given the caliber of gun. For the energy coming down, calculate the bullet dropped from that height. Terminal velocity is the maximum speed an object will reach when acted upon based on gravity and against air friction. A bullet has a pretty small profile while being very dense, giving it a very high terminal velocity.

To make a long story short, yes, people have been killed by falling bullets. It happens almost every New Year's Eve in Miami when some idiot goes popping off a bunch of rounds into the air in a densely packed residential neighborhood. Look it up if you want but know that it happens in real life.