Extra Magazine....Where do you carry and How?

[Duxman]

Gentlemen, I recently switch from a 9mm pistol to a .40 S&W pistol for my CC. Feeling the need for an extra mag because of the weapon's reduced capacity, I am wondering where and how (for those that carry an extra mag)?

I have a mag holder (from tactical holsters) that I carry next to my cell on the left side, but I sometimes would reach for my cell (also on a belt carry case on the left), and if someone were to observe a mag holder, they would probably assume that I am armed.

Another suggestion was to carry in front pocket of jacket (strong side - same side was weapon) to weigh down the jacket so wind does not blow it open and reveal your weapon. My issue here is to reload, you would have to switch hands or do some ackward motion with your left hand to get the extra magazine.

Suggestions?

[jonathon]

A horizontal mag carrier right on your front, or get one that is covered so it looks like a mag lite in a fancy leather case :p

Though, I see a lot people with a ton of crap dangling from their belts so, never usually pay attention to it.

[20cows]

My spare mag is in my left front pocket. For me, a belt pouch would be more problematic to conceal than my IWB 1911. The Blade Tech holster I have will allow me to carry it under a tucked shirt if I need to, but I don't see how a belt carry magazine pouch could be concealed w/o another cover garment.

I do have to check the magazine frequently for pocket lent, but it's just part of the routine.

PS The "maglite" pouch is not really a viable option either.

[Wildalaska]

Never carry one unless I have a shoulder rig adn chances are it has an emprty mag

WildimacivilianAlaska

[kkb]

I have an old distrest belt sheath with a button flap for a folding knife that just happens to fit my spare mag. It's open carried left side and I've had no comments about it. Doesn't look evil and you'd have to look real close to see that ain't a knife in there.

[jonathon]

I have an old distrest belt sheath with a button flap for a folding knife that just happens to fit my spare mag. It's open carried left side and I've had no comments about it. Doesn't look evil and you'd have to look real close to see that ain't a knife in there.

Yeah, thats pretty much was I was talking about ;).

For a Camas PD officer, he wanted a mag pouch for off duty that would look inconspicuous. So we made what could've been a mag lite or knife sheath out of some really nice leather(black with a nice shine to it). Also made a cell phone carrier for his duty belt :D

[Ronny]

I carry a spare mag in my left front pants pocket. I slip an old mini-flashlight cover over it so that no lint or dirt fouls up the mag.

[spacemanspiff]

cargo pants pockets. they're super tactical cause to get to them i gotta drop to a knee. curse this short torsoed body of mine! but thats a good thing, since i'll be kneeling behind cover anyways while i am holding off the chinese invasion force singlehandedly.

[Mr. James]

Left rear pocket.

[MillCreek]

IWB holster with a spare mag pouch on the front.

[perception]

Right beside the gun in my SmartCarry.

[MartinR]

Pocket holster w/ integral spare mag pouch.

(for NAA Guardian)

With high cap semi-auto, I probaly wouldn't carry a spare magazine except when on duty.

[Dwight55]

Kydex double mag paddle carrier on left side: behind 1911 if carrying cross draw.

I have 3 ea 8 rd stainless mags, . . . one in the tube gives me a total of 25 rds.

If that ain't enough, . . . I'll wait at the gate with Peter, . . . y'all get there, 'hear?

May God bless,
Dwight

[payne]

My holster has an extra mag pouch on the top of it. So I got 12 extra rounds of 40 ready to go. So the answer is on the holster.

[RCPractitioner]

Ditto on the knife sheath. The sheath to my Gerber gator fits an extra mag perfectly and noone is none the wiser that it isn't a Gerber knife in there.

[Mannlicher]

Sometimes in a belt holder, sometimes in a pocket holder, sometimes on an ankle holder. Different modes of dress, different guns, dictate where I carry an extra magazine(s). I always have one somewhere though.

[mvpel]

The SmartCarry holster has a spare mag pouch where I stash my 13-round Glock 21 mag for my Glock 30.

[Penman]

two mags for my 1911 in a Sparks #34 double case. Worn at about 8 o'clock

[Brit]

Duxman, move your cel phone, or go bluetooth, you must always carry an extra mag, it must be in a place that makes a mag replacement quick!
The reason for the extra magazine is twofold, #1 malfunctions, the second reason is more bullets!!!! for down range delivery, in a hurry.

A Glock 19 has 16 rounds up, the spare is from a G17, full of 127g new talons, when you get into the extra mag, due to expending the 16 rounds in the pistol! you may have bitten off more than you can chew!!

Keep Safe. Mike H.

[Edward429451]

Depending on the day of the week, wether I'm working or not and what other stuff is on my batman belt.... :rolleyes:

Left front pocket, Gerber multi tool pouch, or two single mag carriers here n there wherever I can fit em in. I know, not very tactical not having spare mags location carved in stone but at least I always have at least one extra no matter what. Plus a couple more in the truck.

[Wildalaska]

when you get into the extra mag, due to expending the 16 rounds in the pistol! you may have bitten off more than you can chew!!

Yeah like an indictment

WildherewegoAlaska

[Jack Malloy]

Usually in a shirt pocket or coat or vest pocket on the right breast.
I dont carry an extra mag in case I run out of ammo. In the real world any self defense shooting you get in will be about 3 rounds at ten feet.
I carry an extra mag because in the real world, the majority of auto pistol malfs are magazine related.
According to the FBI statistics from the past 30 years, you can get into two shoot outs a week with a k-frame .38 before you have to reload fellas. Spray and pray looks cool in John Woo movies, but its horse crap.

[03BlackGTP]

Left Rear Pocket. Driver side door(Just incase you were wondering where I keep them in the car. :rolleyes: )

[Dre_sa]

move your phone to a pocket seeing that you dont really need to get to it as fast as a spare mag. then keep your spare in your phone pouch! takes a little practise to get the speed up but it works. i just kep mine in my left front pocket. tried the pouch thing then found the pocket to be a bit easier (no flaps or velcro)

[CyberSEAL]

I wear a lot of cargo pants and shorts, many of them have an extra interior pocket located within the front right pocket, I find it's the perfect size for an extra magazine.

[smince]

I don't really understand these holsters with a mag pouch sewn on them. If you carry strong-side, how do you reach your spare? Maybe you have really long arms and a small belly? Do you change hands with your pistol and swap mags with your strong hand?

For me, the quickest reload is to carry on my weak side, and use my off hand. Maybe I've been dong it wrong all these years? :rolleyes:

Anyway, when not wearing a covering garment, I use an old nylon wallet with the mag and a small light carried in my left rear pocket. The wallet helps protect the mag from lint somewhat and keeps it from shifting position.

With a cover garment, In a Wilson combo that carries one mag and my Surefire 6P.

Always carry a spare, even with hi-caps. Some malf's are best cleared by dropping the mag in the gun and reloading with the spare.

[MidKnight]

I know the pocket you're talking about... It also helps because it keeps the mag in an upright position. I used to use that pocket for my foling knives. Always knew where the thumb lever would be! Same goes for the mag, always sure of how it will come out of the pocket. Consistency is good.

[CyberSEAL]

That pocket is awesome, hehe, I look for it now all the time when I buy pants or shorts. =)

[Sulaco2]

On or off duty, "Buck" knife sheath on left side belt next to the cell phone. Just right for a 13 round Glock 23 mag., with a snap flap for security.

[carebear]

Fairly high ride belt pouch just behind the hip or in backleft pocket.

Sometimes suit coat left pocket if I'm wearing one.

[Para Bellum]

horziontal on weak hand belt side in a safariland-holster (http://www.safariland.com/products.asp?id=57). looks like a cellphone...
When the Magazine is there it totally fits and becomes all rectangular...
You froget that it's there, it's safe and very fast to access. I even use it in IPSC competitions and I don't loose time compared to other holsters:


http://www.safariland.com/images/catalog/123_l.jpg

Model 123
Concealment Magazine Holder, Horizontal
Single magazine holder— carries magazines in a horizontal position
Hook-and-loop belt attachment wraps around belt
Hook-and-loop flap keeps the magazine in the pouch
Available in Plain Black finish

[cosmolinelover]

I personally like to "surprise myself" and carry the extra mag in a new place everyday. Mondays I prefer it in my left front pocket, tuesdays I really feel better if its in the right front pocket. However on Thursdays I like to cram it in my right rear pocket between my wallet so it messes up my back when I sit down. And on the sabboth I have a lanyard that I hang the extra mag around my neck with. :D

Seriously though? Left front pocket.

[azspyder]

Clip-on belt carrier just forward of my left hip pointer.

[ATW525]

In the smartcarry pocket if I'm wearing smartcarry, in a double mag pouch on my left side if I'm wearing that, in a double mag pouch under my right arm if I'm wearing my shoulder rig, or in my left front pocket if I'm wearing none of the above. I highly recommend against carrying the magazine in alot of different places, but I clearly don't follow my own advice. Typically I carry between 25-46 rounds when I leave the house. Most likely I'll never need that many, but if I ever do I'll be glad that I have it ;)

[tel0004]

Man, You guys must think im crazy. I got 5 shots, and thats it, my backup is my fist.

[smince]

Man, You guys must think im crazy. I got 5 shots, and thats it, my backup is my fist

I always carry at least one reload, whether it is my Keltec .32 or an AR15, or anything in between. :D

[leadcounsel]

I can hear the DA now, speaking to the Jury in the murder prosecution case:

"The defendant has the right to defend himself from imminent deadly harm. However, this defendant carries with him on a daily basis 32 bullets for his 9mm pistol. During the altercation, the defendant shot all 16 bullets from his gun, stopped, reloaded his gun, and then shot several more times."

I think that it would not sit well with a Jury in most anti-gun courtrooms in America. It seems that carrying one gun and ammo for it is justifiable. But when you are carrying an arsenal, you may destroy your credibility for "self defense." I think carrying more ammo makes you look like you're looking for a reason to get into a gun fight. Also, in my opinion, if you can't handle a garden variety self-defense problem with 1 magazine, you're in over your head. It's either because
A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice
B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately

[MikeWrite]

I always carry a spare mag for my Glock 26, though usually in a pocket rather than on my belt. My pistol might malfunction. The mag might get knocked out of my gun in a fight. I might run out of ammo and need to reload.

I have to dispute Leadcounsel's statements:

"A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice"

Skill degradation in gunfights versus "practice" has been estimated by many authorities to be in the 50%-80% range. This means that even a well-practiced shooter who scores 100% on a qualification course may only shoot half that well when under deadly stress.

"B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
"C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately"

If I am severely outnumbered, I am MORE likely to need my gun (and maybe a spare mag), not less. Obviously, if one can safely withdraw from a situation, one should, but this applies equally to situations where one faces a hostile individual or a gang.

I also find this "I can hear the DA now" stuff pretty amusing coming from the guy who, in another thread, says that he:

* wears a threat level IIA vest regularly (I can hear the DA now, asking why a mere citizen needs body armor like that used by police)
* uses a Glock 35 .40 with a 15 rd clip (I can hear the DA now, asking why a mere citizen needs a high-capacity pistol firing high-powered police rounds)
* suits up with pistol, flashlight, phone, vest and electronic ear protectors when there's a noise in the house (I can hear the DA now, asking why a mere citizen needs to outfit himself like SWAT cop to confront a teenage burglar)
* uses hollowpoint Corbons (I can hear the DA now, asking why regular or police-issue bullets weren't deadly enough for this mere citizen)

My point is that this fear of hearing what a politically-motivated prosecutor MAY say to a jury seems pretty silly. I am willing to bet that neither Mas Ayoob nor Leadcounsel can produce a case where a defender was convicted in an otherwise righteous shooting simply because he was carrying a spare magazine.

Recycled scare stories about courtroom theatrics from anti-gun DAs helps fill Massad's monthly columns, and probably sells issues of "Combat Handguns" to lots of petrified, underconfident new shooters. I'm not sure they should materially affect the choices of serious gun carriers, whether the issue is carrying spare magazines, wearing body armor, or anything else.

Mike

[kymasabe]

With some of the high-cap guns out there, some of you are carrying 25-30 rounds with an extra mag. I'm carrying 6+1 and feel confident I can get myself out of harms way. Why in the world would you need 20+ rounds?

[us.armysniper]

+1 for left rear pocket

[leadcounsel]

For the record, I typically am carrying 1 mag with 10 rounds as a CCW. I have a variety of choices for home defense, including longguns.

What I use in my home under a burglary situation is alot different to what I would use in a public environment. Equally important, in Colorado the law is largely different in the public environment than in one's home.

For instance, in defense of one's homestead and people therein, one is completely immune from criminal prosecution or civil liability and his actions are judged with more leniency. People have been immune from liability, for instance for delivering a fatal shot to the burglar when the burglar was wounded and laying prone and unarmed on the porch! I'll get you the name of the case if you don't believe me. It may not even be a case citation but more of a preliminary hearing because I don't think it went to trial. At any rate, that would be completely different in the public arena. Further, it's not practical to carry or implement some of the home defense tools in the public arena. Hence, the weapons and tools I use in my home may vary from what I carry daily. Provided they are legal, the weapons I use in home defense are really moot in the eyes of the law, and no jury will ever hear that DA argument.

With regard to the point about what the DA might argue if a public self defense shooting goes to trial, sure, it's speculation. However, that's an agle the DA might use. However, say you did get surrounded by a gang and had to fire all two mags to escape your movie-type scenario. First, the scenario isn't very realistic. Gangs dispurse or fire back when fired on. I highly doubt anyone would survive long enough to load the second clip if a gang of 30 is firing on you. Best bet is to flee. Second, if the gang doesn't have a gun, your first couple shots will send the 18 year old predators fleeing. If you continue to shoot, you'll end up in jail or at least lose your CCW rights. Now, if the gang presumably doesn't have guns and yet keeps coming at you like a hoard of zombies or Aliens, unconcerned by your repeated gunfire then so be it, but it isn't reality (In my world, anyway).....

Some argue that you can use suppressing fire to escape. Maybe in some circumstances, but in my world there are civis everywhere and suppressing fire CAN hit and kill someone, which is clearly negligence. It can also damage alot of property which you can be responsible for. And, you'll be answering alot of questions from the po po. If you're in a combat zone and a soldier, suppressing fire is justified. Suppressing fire in the civilian world is irresponsible and unacceptable.

In Colorado, you can use lethal self defense in public only when a lesser degree of force won't work AND only until the threat is stopped. Read that as meaning if they are not using lethal force, or if they stop using lethal force or flee, you are committing a crime by continuing to shoot. And you are seriously endangering other people.

If I were a DA, I don't think it would be difficult to convince a jury, even like minded gun toting folks, that you shooting up the streets of (insert your city here) is at all responsible nor within the true meaning of self-defense. If I were the DA my attack would be twofold:

1) I'd try to convince the jury that you are a gun nut (not you personally, because we all own and carry lots of different gun that would make the left poop their pants), as evidenced by carrying MORE than adequate firepower and number of bullets;
2) I'd try to convince the jury that you're just looking for a reason to shoot up the city, as evidenced by regularly carrying all that ammo...

I'd certainly be inclined to convict someone of burning through two magazines and shooting up God knows what under anything but a zombie situation. I certainly wouldn't want that person having a CCW anymore.

You and I both know how sensational the news makes it when someone is caught with "200 rounds of ammo" or whatever, yet that really isn't that much ammo. But the media, and everyday Joe, sees that and thinks you're trying to take over the world.

I only say this because we only recently got the right to CCW in Colorado, and like most states, it's only a couple of bad incidents away from "dangerous failure." It concerns me that people readily carry and expect to use not just one full clip of ammo, but a backup gun or a second clip of ammo. If you really don't trust your primary gun from failure, get a different gun such as a revolver.

[SomeKid]

I carry this at about 1130.

http://www.safariland.com/products.asp?id=57

Great little thing to hold my backup mag for my G23.

Carry the weapon at about 4, right hand draws, left can yank the reload out.

Also, when in the middle of a fight, you won't be worrying about some idiot DA. Stay alive, then you can tell your side of the story. Between you and your lawyer, everything the DA says you ought to be able to rip apart if it is legit.

[smince]

To those who carry one mag:

I hope you have practiced your malfunction drills while juggling your one and only magazine. :rolleyes: And hopefully, it won't be an SW or BHP with a mag disconnect safety, just in case you drop/loose it. :eek:

[Duxman]

Lead - I am not as eloquent as you. Obviously you are in the profession of law - good for you. Can you please enlighten us on any cases out there, where the said normal citizen carried more than 1 magazine, and was lawfully prosecuted because of that fact?

Also, last time I checked, police carry 2 extra magazines fully loaded - are they all gun nuts? Or just prepared?

There is no law that I know of that restricts the amount of ammo one carries to backup your CC piece. Can you enlighten us if there is?

[leadcounsel]

First, cops go toward danger as part of their jobs, and have backup and routine training. And, sometimes cops are attacked because of their uniforms. I, on the other hand, am in an entirely different profession, do not have backup, nor daily training, nor is it my job to stop crime. My JOB is to Cover MY A** and get out a dangerous situation alive, while ensuring that I use the amount of force necessary but NO MORE because that could cost me my freedom, my job, my professional license, etc. Now, I have to do that in the confines of daily life and "normal" business attire. The addition of a another piece of equipment, that is likely useless, to me seems like overpreparation for an event that probably won't happen, but COULD.

As far as caselaw, that is more research than I care to do right now and likely will be either uncompelling or unavailable (because the jury isn't going to spell out, "Well, we would not have convicted BUT for the fact that he had that extra magazine and shot a few more times than necessary...). It is what it is. However, in Colorado I'll refer you to the law (abridged version for relevance), Colorado Revised Statutes 18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.
(1) ...a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;

Now, that being spelled out quite clearly, if you can't rely on a single hi-cap magazine to solve the overwhelming majority of lethal situations then by all means, carry an extra pound of weight daily. Or, if you cannot rely on your gun to function and think you'll need to drop mags or switch guns, then carry an extra mag or gun.

I'm advocating carrying the appropriate and wisest gear for a person who wants to prepare for a real world scenario. That varies for everyone depending on a lot of different environments. Sometimes its only a knife. Sometimes it's only a small caliber pocket pistol. Sometimes it's a full sized 1911. Sometimes the proper gear is a 12 gauge pump and armor. However, in normal urban America, 5 shots is probably adequate. I don't like adequate, so I opt for 10. Others have 15. But since it's probably rare than any of us have ever had to use lethal force, coupled with the fact that the average gun "fight" is 3 shots, I pose the question why a person should carry 20-30+ bullets? I think you're just asking for trouble. And, IMO, it's the difference between being "prepared" for an unlikely confrontation and "looking" for a gunfight.

I think that such a person is visualizing being "pinned down" by several gunmen, or having to shoot over his shoulder while running for cover, or any similar equally improbable scenario. Again, if it's because you cannot trust your gun, get a reliable semi-auto or switch to a revolver.

[Derius_T]

leadcounsel wrote:

I can hear the DA now, speaking to the Jury in the murder prosecution case:

"The defendant has the right to defend himself from imminent deadly harm. However, this defendant carries with him on a daily basis 32 bullets for his 9mm pistol. During the altercation, the defendant shot all 16 bullets from his gun, stopped, reloaded his gun, and then shot several more times."

I think that it would not sit well with a Jury in most anti-gun courtrooms in America. It seems that carrying one gun and ammo for it is justifiable. But when you are carrying an arsenal, you may destroy your credibility for "self defense." I think carrying more ammo makes you look like you're looking for a reason to get into a gun fight. Also, in my opinion, if you can't handle a garden variety self-defense problem with 1 magazine, you're in over your head. It's either because
A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice
B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately


You said the exact same thing on another thread. Is this cut & paste our opinion day or what? :rolleyes:

So you see absolutely no justifiable instance in which the use or need of another magazine would be appropriate?

How do you keep from running into things with your blinders on?

[Doug.38PR]

I always carry my extra magazine for my 1911 in my right side inside coat/jacket pocket or in my left pants pocket. That way my left hand (the one that wouldn't be holding the gun) would be free to reach in and get it in either place without having to switch hands.

[tanksoldier]

<<I can hear the DA now, speaking to the Jury in the murder prosecution case:>>

Every round fired has to be justified by self defense. If there was still a threat, for whatever reason, then firing 500 rounds won't make a difference.

Just show the video recreation of the Miami shootout that I saw, and play it for the jury. One suspect was shot multiple times, but was still functioning.

<<I think that such a person is visualizing being "pinned down" by several gunmen, or having to shoot over his shoulder while running for cover, or any similar equally improbable scenario. Again, if it's because you cannot trust your gun, get a reliable semi-auto or switch to a revolver.>>

By your logic no one should bother to carry a weapon at all as it is vastly improbable that one would ever be needed. One might say that someone who carries a gun is looking for a gunfight. Improbable is not impossible. I hope improbability doesn't kill you.

[dave_in_delaware]

I carry a spare 15 rnd mag in my OWB/IWB holster from Mil-Tech. It's got a spare mag pouch right on the front of the holster, next to my XD-9 subbie.

[SomeKid]

Just a thought regarding your spare magazine.

I would recommend AGAINST carrying your spare with the gun, and here is why.

You use one hand to draw the weapon, if you want to get the spare mag, you have to switch the gun to the other hand, then draw the mag. Most people would then switch back to their primary hand for handling the gun. In a fight, this could be too much time lost.

I carry my spare in a way that my alternate hand can draw the spare as I am drawing my sidearm with my primary. IMO, it puts me in a better position if it gets really bad, really quick.

[Jack Malloy]

If you carry an auto the main reason to carry a spare magazine has nothing to do with firepower.
It has everything to do with the fact that 90 percent of auto malfunctions are magazine related.
The typical firefight is over with three rounds fired at about ten feet. I carry a spare mag in case I have a feedway hangup and the feed lips on my primary mag get bent.
In regards to what a jury thinks, the only jury case I ever sat through where the number of shots fired came up was in a murder trial in a domestic violence case.
The husband shot the wife six times with a Ruger .357 magnum, reloaded and shot her again.
All of this was in front of their kids.
Had he shot her three times or five times, it would not have made much difference to the jury.
In my opinion the only group of people out there who don't understand anything at all about terminal ballistics are "professional" journalists, whose only ideas of anything law enforcement related tends to be based on old tv shows.
They blindly buy into the fantasy that if you shoot somebody one time with a .22 or a 9mm the person will fly backwards and die like they do in movies. The also seem to overlook the same movies where the good guy gets shot a few times and seems oblivious to the injury.....
These same folks get angry at police when they get robbed and nobody starts dusting for fingerprints as they don't realize fingerprints are useless unless you alllready have a suspect.
(Unless you have been inthe military, the police, security work or jail, chances are your fingerprints are not on file).

[dave_in_delaware]

Somekid,
I carry my weapon at the 2:00 position (towards the front from my right hip, kind of right over my right front pocket of my jeans). That seems to be the most comfortable and quickest draw for me. I'm right handed, so I'd grab my gun w/ my right hand, use that thumb to hit the mag release, then use my left hand to get the spare mag. I wouldn't be switching hands at all, so no time lost. Your point is a good one, it just doesn't apply to me. Others might benefit from it though. If I did position my holster on my back somewhere, then I could see where having the spare in a different place would be necessary.

Everyone,
And before someone says something about "the holster should be towards your back, in case the BG is right up on you in the front, it would make it difficult to draw your weapon...." I thought about that scenario. My thought was: Then again, the BG could attack me from behind, therefore having more direct access to my weapon (then I would be more vulnerable, not seeing him in the first place). I figure, more than likely (no data to support this thought though), I'd be facing the threat and backing away, so I'd prefer my gun to be up front where I can reach it better (and the BG be able to SEE it, hopefully changing his mind).

Either way, wherever the holster and spare are, I see a problem. The task of loading a spare mag into the gun is a two-handed operation, isn't it? What happens if the BG has your other hand locked in some sort of struggle, like say you're keeping him from choking you with your weak hand while your strong hand is grabbing your gun? You empty a mag into him, but he's doped up on something, and still attacking? How do you get that other mag, and load it into your gun, all one-handed? Any thoughts on this anyone?

[SomeKid]

Dave.

If that is comfortable for you, carry away. I have a holster for my P97 which I generally sit at 12. Took my safety class with it, got a couple of odd looks. Even the instructor asked if'n it was comfortable. I thought it was. (It is OWB, and if you wanna see it, go look for the Carjacker Crossdraw from Andrews Custom Leather.)

Your scenario...

IMO, at that point your gun is better as a club than as a gun. That is a scenario for a good knife.

[leadcounsel]

Although I've chosen not to carry a spare for the above reasons, when I was deciding I came across some good products.

Since my goal was to conceal the magazine and not carry it on the WB, I saw products that carry on the wrist or ankle, in a nylon style pouch with velcro flap, with velcro straps. I thought it would work well on the ankle, but even better on the shooting hand under a long sleeve shirt. In a pinch you could just pull up the shirt sleeve and have access to the magazine.

[alpineman]

I usually just stick a spare in my left front pocket. Considering I have my pistol, multi-tool AND cell phone on my belt, I feel like friggin' Batman when I add a mag to it (I know I've got a grappling hook in here somewhere...)

And in the extremely unlikely event that I have to use my gun & end up in court, I'll deal with it. Better to have a spare mag & not need it than to need it & end up dead because of being so "forward-thinking" that you talked yourself out of carrying a spare mag. I'm OK with the idea of "shooting up the street" if it means I don't ... you know ... die.

That slope was nice & slippery, so I thought I'd hop on... :rolleyes:

[smince]

leadcouncil said:

...(I)...do not have backup,

An excellent reason to carry extra ammunition. ;)

[Jack Malloy]

In all actuallity, I used to think about just saying to hell with it and putting together my own Batman utility belt, because in my job, I have to carry spare batteries, spare film, a tape recorder, spare tapes etc.
I figured Icould slip a spare mag in there in a pouch somewhere too.



>>>I usually just stick a spare in my left front pocket. Considering I have my pistol, multi-tool AND cell phone on my belt, I feel like friggin' Batman when I add a mag to it (I know I've got a grappling hook in here somewhere...)
<<<

[Derius_T]

LeadCounsel Wrote:

I, on the other hand, am in an entirely different profession, do not have backup, nor daily training

But WAIT...I though you WERE HIGHLY TRAINED!? You WROTE:

When I was in college I worked as a campus security guard for 4 years and was trained on the force continuum and carried the usual non-lethal tools. After college I worked as an unarmed undercover retail store loss prevention detective, and was trained in military/LEO apprehension, takedown, pressure point compliance, subdual, and hand cuffing techniques and was tested regularly and had to apply those techniques (successfully 100% of the time) many times when apprehending violent shoplifters who fought back and were sometimes armed with handheld weapons (but when possible the safest bet is to let an armed shoplifter walk). During this period of time we were not allowed to carry OC per policy. I occasionally wore a stab vest or ballistic vest as it was a hostile environment. Some of my co-workers were put in the hospital at times with bad injuries from escalated events, so it was necessary to be prepared. In addition to my years of security training for situational awareness, sizing up one’s opponent, and LEO/military subdual techniques I have studied Judo since the mid-1990’s, kickboxing since the mid-1990’s (having taught kickboxing for 6 months), and sprinkled in a little tae kwon do (for the culture mainly)

In addition to my training, I am 6’1” and weigh a solid 200 lbs and am exceptionally physically fit. I played collegiate contact sports, postgraduate intramural sports, and continue to play individual and team sports. I can currently run 3 miles in 22 minutes at 1 mile elevation in Colorado (which would qualify me for the Army, Navy, or Air Force, and almost qualify as a Marine recruit). I can bench press 250 lbs, bicep curl 130, do 13 consecutive pull-ups, 100 consecutive sit-ups, and squat 400 lbs any day of the week.

Whats up with that.....mall ninja......

[leadcounsel]

+1 Wildalaska on the "indictment" comment.

DT -- I'll stand by that statement. I don't have "daily training" as in I don't drill on a daily basis to use lethal force as our LEOs and Military does. But I do have PAST training and still train "regularly" enough to be fresh. That being said, I'm 100% confident in any 'realistic' lethal or non lethal situation I may run into in my daily life.

I'll also reiterate that I don't carry a spare mag b/c I see it as useless in a civilian urban situation and as such a waste of time and effort and it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW, which is what I DON"T want. I've said it 100 times but it's worth restating... Don't carry a POS and you won't have to worry about it. If the Gods are frowning on you and you do get both attacked and your gun jams, then it takes less time to clear a jam than reload. Don't believe me, practice the drill. If your gun continues to jam, stop carrying a POS or get a 99.999999999% reliable revolver. A FTF means a second pull of the trigger.

I think much too much time is spent worrying about 1 in 100,000 million scenareos and not real scenarios, such as conditioning your body and mind to be able to exercise (simulating running for cover or wrestling with attacker) and then shooting, aka tactics and physical training.

To those carrying a second mag, try timing yourselves in a drill. First, see how long it takes you to reload under a real scenario. Then, see how many jams you can clear in that same time and ask yourself if you've EVER had to clear some 5 jams with your gun. If the answer is yes, get a different gun.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Being an old fart, I can only bench around 200 lbs and so I must carry a spare magazine. :p

I have reloaded from a spare mag in all kinds of excercises under stress. In fact, some theorists suggest that with a jam, there is only one clearance exercise that makes sense - drop the mag and reload.

There is controversy with that position versus tap, rack, assess, bang but hey, grasshopper - we are students on the path to steely eyed dealer of death enlightment.

It's also fun to go to the range and advanced classes and see really high end guns go belly up when the fun starts. In my last training exercise, running through a shoot house (really outdoors) with moving targets and doors and walls and windows, my normally reliable G19 went oops and the instructors and students complimented me on my automatic and fast reload and getting back into the fight.

See you at the mall, guys.

[SomeKid]

DT -- I'll stand by that statement. I don't have "daily training" as in I don't drill on a daily basis to use lethal force as our LEOs and Military does.

Lead, do you really think the average street cop trains on a daily basis on using lethal force?

[leadcounsel]

Batman, where do you keep your whistle on your utility belt?

Just spoke with an ex-Army E4 (aka a trained solider with years of experience working his way up from an E1). We all know that enlistees carry several magazines because it's the nature of their job. They don't carry extra ammo because they fear their guns will all jam. Admittedly civilian carry is dramatically different, but some fundamentals are the same. This is a multiple choice question so let's see how well you do: In a live fire exercise or in combat, if your weapon fails to feed, fails to cycle, fails to eject (basically a jam as we know it), the proper action is to:

A) clear the round using the charging handle or slide and resume firing; or
B) drop the full magazine and load another despite still having the obstacle of a jammed round in the chamber that still hasn't been addressed; or
C) pull out a bootknife, one of two that you regularly carry; or
D) blow on your whistle

I'll give you a hint, it isn't B, C, or D (despite all of those options being very very attractive to you).

I don't agree with what your "teachers" have to say about OC. It's only going to escalate the situation and while you've hand is holding a can of OC, your opponent has opted for his .357 in self defense. OC vs. .357, I'll take the .357 on my side.

Last I knew, sheep did what their instructors told them without questioning the logic.... Think "outside" the box.....

[wayneinFL]

To those carrying a second mag, try timing yourselves in a drill. First, see how long it takes you to reload under a real scenario. Then, see how many jams you can clear in that same time and ask yourself if you've EVER had to clear some 5 jams with your gun. If the answer is yes, get a different gun.

What exactly is a "real scenario"? Should I have a buddy punch me while I'm clearing a jam so my mag falls in the mud or in a gutter. That's going to add a lot of time.

it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW

That may be a reason not to carry a spare.

Don't carry a POS and you won't have to worry about it.

That's not a reason not to carry a spare.

Neither is refusing to carry a spare out of fear of prosecution.

MW:
My point is that this fear of hearing what a politically-motivated prosecutor MAY say to a jury seems pretty silly. I am willing to bet that neither Mas Ayoob nor Leadcounsel can produce a case where a defender was convicted in an otherwise righteous shooting simply because he was carrying a spare magazine.

As a matter of fact, Massad Ayoob, who usually leans toward the most conservative side of caution in avoiding prosecution, has given a case in his column of a man with a spare gun who beat a charge that was based on forethought of malice.

[leadcounsel]

Cite to the article? I have not read it.

If that was the only charge against the guy, then can I presume one thing?

Was the spare mag necessary in his self-defense situation? If not it illustrates exactly my point. If that's all the DA had on the shooter, and the crux of the DA's case was malice aforethought, then the shooter placed himself at serious risk of a prison term. For what purpose? Does it say how much the shooter had to spend on his defense? Whether he lost his job?

Murder rap defenses can easily start at $25,000 and go into the 6 figures. Have you got that kinda cash layin' around?

I certainly wouldn't want some DA thinkin' that because I had an extra mag I had malice aforethought beyond a self defense situation, even where I otherwise acted within the confines of the law (like this guy, probably).

[wayneinFL]

Cite to the article? I have not read it.

Oooooo. I'd have to go through a whole stack of magazines for that one. It was in his column in Guns magazine in maybe '03 or '04?

IIRC it was in Florida. He wasn't fired; he was in business for himself. IIRC, he had two guns in his truck and took one into his business. Also, IIRC, the grand jury kicked it out, before it went to trial.


If that's all the DA had on the shooter, and the crux of the DA's case was malice aforethought, then the shooter placed himself at serious risk of a prison term. For what purpose?

For the purpose of not getting killed. It could have as easily happened to me. I carry a gun on me, and normally keep another in my van. I spend as much time in the van as out of it and it's difficult to get to my concealed gun with a seatbelt on. Should I give up one gun and take my chances with the bad guy or keep it and take my chances with the court?

I certainly wouldn't want some DA thinkin' that because I had an extra mag I had malice aforethought beyond a self defense situation, even where I otherwise acted within the confines of the law (like this guy, probably).

If you're D.A. thinks like that, you either need to move to another jurisdiction,don't carry a gun, or just stick it out when the going gets tough. Because he's going to come up with some dirty lawyer trick no matter how clean you try to play it. IMHO.

[leadcounsel]

Oh, I"m sorry, it was *JUST* a grand jury empaneling for a homicide indictment charge. No biggie then.... Shooter probably didn't even bother with counsel.... :D

[wayneinFL]

Oh, I"m sorry, it was *JUST* a grand jury empaneling for a homicide indictment charge. No biggie then.... Shooter probably didn't even bother with counsel....

Where did the heck I say anything like that? :confused: Either you misunderstood me or you're putting up straw men.

My point is: If you have a D.A. that would prosecute you for having a spare mag, he's going to prosecute you for something else anyway.

Now if you want my opinion on the money thing, all you have to do is ask for it. Maybe it was six figures. Maybe it was $25,000. Maybe it was $50,000. Maybe the D.A. isn't the only slimy lawyer in town. Good guy probably got sued, too.

Is your life and liberty worth $25,000 or $50,000? Or are you better off dead? If your life isn't worth the money, then don't defend yourself at all.

[leadcounsel]

W, do you know how Grand Juries generally work (they do vary from state to state, but the concept is the same generally)?

If not, I'll tell you if you ask nicely.... but you probably won't believe me anyway :barf:

Silly to ask whether I think my life is worth X number of $. The answer is yes. Why can't you hear what I'm saying about this whole controvesy...?

I'd rather NOT be attacked; I'd rather NOT shoot someone; I'd rather NOT be shot at; I'd rather NOT have to defend my actions to a Grand Jury mainly on the grounds of malice aforethought (for an otherwise clean self defense shooting) because I was carrying more bullets than were shot in the OK Corral when the *average* self defense gunfight is 3 shots. I'd rather NOT lose my job, come under fire from the State Bar Assoc., and mortgage my house to retain a lawyer to steer me through a process because the DA thinks that my carrying an extra mag is malice aforethought. Can it happen? Evidently it did happen in FL. Sure, the grand jury's findings didn't warrent a trial, but at WHAT financial, emotional, and career costs? Sounds like he could have avoided the whole mess if he just didn't carry the spare mag.

IMO carrying an extra mag is 1) pointless b/c you aren't ever gonna need it (and if you felt you did... you know my position about that); 2) adds extra weight and concealment issues; 3) is one more thing you've got to be responsible for; 4) takes up space that would work better for something else; 5) could be grounds for a left wing DA with an agenda to put YOU on the chopping block to help make HIS career milestone. Did I forget anything...?

Also, it's not realistic to keep an eye on every DA and move as often as they are replaced. Besides, a DA may be pressured by many forces beyond his own good judgment and try a case he disagrees with; it happens daily.

[wayneinFL]

Besides, a DA may be pressured by many forces beyond his own good judgment and try a case he disagrees with; it happens daily.

To an anti, carrying a gun is reason enough. If someone wants to hang you, he will try to hang you, no matter what hoops you try to jump through to seem like a perfectly reasonable person carrying a gun.

[smince]

Can we get back to the subject at hand?

Maybe leadcouncil should start his own "Why not to carry this or that?" thread. :D

[Edward429451]

I'm sure leadcounsel means well even if he's quite opinionated about it. Working in that defacto cesspool can probably affect your thinking after awhile.

I think that if one is so worried abought what the DA might do, then maybe it'd be best to not carry at all. Myself, I'll keep my extra ammo thanks.

I liked thar mag up the sleeve idea. Where'd you see that at? Got a link?

[tshadow6]

I carry my spare mag for my semi auto in my left pocket. When I carry my J frame , I carry my speedloaders in my right front pocket.

[Netzapper]

If I'm wearing a vest (not ballistic, just full of pockets, for cover) I always put a spare mag in the lower right pocket of the vest. This serves a two-fold purpose. First, I have a spare magazine, in case of malfunction or needing an extra fifteen rounds of ammo. Second, and more importantly, it provides a weight that keeps that side of the vest less susceptible to wind, and allows me to flip it open easily for my drawstroke.

If I'm not wearing my vest, it goes in my left front pocket with my cellphone.

I can hear you now: with his cellphone?

Well, it works very well. Since the magazine is longer than the cellphone, it's the first thing I hit when I stick my hand in that pocket. Furthermore, the cellphone wedges it in against the back of the pocket, preventing it from shifting around and not being in the precise location I want it to be.

It should be noted, however, that if I'm not wearing the vest, I often don't carry a spare magazine. It's probably not the safest move, but I already carry (literally) five or six pounds worth of crap in my pants. Adding in that extra half a pound of explosives and lead is just that much more uncomfortable.

[leadcounsel]

Link to wrist mag pouch:

http://www.gamepod.com/store_020.htm

I've also seen this someplace else but I cannot locate it right now.

[Duxman]

Forget those mag carriers with the plastic retainer clip, by the time you undo the plastic clip to reach for your extra magazine - the BG has probably shot / stabbed you to pieces or both.

Try retention holders like:
https://secure.fobusholster.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=28

For about 15 bucks they are a bargain, and with practice, you can reload in under 3 seconds. Plus they are paddle mounted - easy to remove and put back on without taking off your belt.

I have found - these are most convenient way to carry extra mags - unless you prefer pocket carry.

[smince]

GUNS Magazine (November 2005) quote:

"Maximize the distance to the threat...Minimize yourself as a target. Carry a gun, and two would be better. Carry spare ammunition, the more the better. Carry a flashlight, and two would be better. If you think there is going to be a fight...leave!"

Clint Smith

:D

[Derius_T]

Leadcounsel Wrote:

I think much too much time is spent worrying about 1 in 100,000 million scenareos and not real scenarios, such as conditioning your body and mind to be able to exercise (simulating running for cover or wrestling with attacker) and then shooting, aka tactics and physical training.

Your most likely right ninj....er uhm, leadcounsel. I hear there are some links to some very useful information on fighting styles and extensive training techniques over at " MallNinja.com " :rolleyes:

[tanksoldier]

Back up gun. Knife.


<<Either way, wherever the holster and spare are, I see a problem. The task of loading a spare mag into the gun is a two-handed operation, isn't it? What happens if the BG has your other hand locked in some sort of struggle, like say you're keeping him from choking you with your weak hand while your strong hand is grabbing your gun? You empty a mag into him, but he's doped up on something, and still attacking? How do you get that other mag, and load it into your gun, all one-handed? Any thoughts on this anyone?>>

[tanksoldier]

While I disagree with alot of what leadcounsel says, he is right that training and practice is actually far more important than gear, as is physical fitness and a warrior mindset. To my mind a "mallnija" is the guy who straps on his latest wunderpistol and hicap mags, but doesn't practice tactical shooting regularly, doesn't maintain situational awareness, gets out of breath running up 2 flights of stairs and hasn't trained or equipped himself for alternatives to his firearm.



<<Your most likely right ninj....er uhm, leadcounsel. I hear there are some links to some very useful information on fighting styles and extensive training techniques over at " MallNinja.com " >>

[Jack Malloy]

Let me repeat this for you guys who think its 1873 and your pistol is a henry rifle.
The main reason to carry a spare mag whether you are a civillian, a green beret or a swat cop is this — 90 PERCENT OF ALL JAMS ARE MAGAZINE RELATED.
In other words, when you need it most your high capacity bullet hose can become a single shot if you only have one mag.
Firepower and extra ammo has nothing to do with it. They are nice, but not so nice as having a reserve in the case that your worne out old feedlips give up halfway through the first shot.
Do you really want to rip a damaged mag out of the gun, pull out the bullets and manually feed them into the chamber when a bad guy is popping off .380 rounds in your general direction?
Its that simple and ignore that fact at your own risk.
Personaly I think its stupid to pack around a gun and a cell phone and no spare mag for a semi auto. You'd be better off leaving the cell phone at home and jamming a spare mag in your pocket.
Does your survival really depend on somebody calling you when you are in a darkened movie theater or on the toilet?
Wear a good cover garment and most people will never know you are carrying, let alone carrying a spare mag. Dump your cell phone and carry your spare mag in the phone holder if you have to. Nobody will notice.

>>I'll also reiterate that I don't carry a spare mag b/c I see it as useless in a civilian urban situation and as such a waste of time and effort and it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW, which is what I DON"T want.<<

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I might repeat that if one hangs with trained folks, rather than ninja-oids, they looked normally dressed but have a flashlight, gun, mag, knife, phone, OC without little trouble. Some even have a bug.

We've sat together in nice restaurants and no one looks extreme or burdened.

So I suppose that all the trainers I've met are just nuts and no nothing about the real world and/or legal issues? Sigh.

[leadcounsel]

I am "yielding" my position with further explanation as follows:

Went to the range and ran about 200-400 rounds through the following guns from standing postition with 1 second between shots:

Gun Distance MOA # of Jams and causes
Beretta 92 15' 2" *
Beretta 92 35' 4" *
Glock 35 15' 1" none
Glock 35 35' 2" none
Springfield XD 3" 15' 1.5" one failure to feed **
Springfield XD 4" 15' 1.5" none
Springfield XD 4" 35' 2.5" none
S&W SW9 9mm 15' 2" multiple ***
Taurus 607 .357 15' (SA) 2" none
Taurus 607 .357 35' (SA) 3" none

*I've been running hundreds of rounds through my pistols without cleaning to see how well they'll function when filthy dirty. I'd estimate it's been 1000 rounds or more for the above pistols since their last cleaning. I will scrub them tonight. The Beretta's fuction was excellent with the Beretta supplied magazine, but it jammed repeatedly with the aftermarket mags.

**The Springfield XD had one failure to feed which was cleared in about 1 second and firing resumed.

***I am not a fan of S&W semi-autos and this was a friend's gun who joined me at the range. This gun as probably less than 1000 rounds through it in its lifetime. I've shot this gun in the past for a total of 200 rounds. I've experienced about 5 jams with this gun in those 200 rounds. On 9/18 this gun broke and became completely useless. The plastic frame near the front completely broke releasing the guide rod and the slide.

Drawing from my albeit limited experience of 6 years as a gun owner, collector, and shooter, I personally feel that the extra magazine is useful in SOME situations and useless in others. It is circumstantial and dependent on whether one feels that it's necessary; in some cases it may be and others it may not. While crime can and certainly does strike unexpectedly, one may gauge the "relative danger" of ones' daily life.

This range experience has illuminated many things that both support and defeat my own argument and offer lessons as follows:
1: Any gun can fail whether it be a jam or a complete failure by breaking!
2: Failures by a gun are often magazine or ammuntion related. Avoid bad ammo and mags. (In the past I've found that Wolf ammo causes many jams in guns/mags that do not have a tendency to jam)
3: With the proper ammo and mags, semi auto guns rarely jam. Even when filthy dirty from 1000 rounds of fire and months since their last cleaning, Beretta only jammed with bad magazines and functioned flawlessly and accurately with the proprietary magazine; the Glock 35 has functioned flawlessly and accurately; the Springfield XD 4" has functioned flawlessly and accurately; the Springfield XD 3" has had ONE failure to feed which was cleared in 1 second. ONE failure in about 3000 rounds between these three dirty guns is acceptable for self defense purposes IMHO. These three guns, and mainly the G35 and the XD 3" are my primary line of personal self defense in the home (G35; backed up with 12 gauge or .223) and public (XD 3").
4: In thousands of rounds the Taurus revolver has NEVER failed to fire.

Conclusion: It's well accepted that any gun can fail, jam, misfire, or break. In my opinion, and for my circumstances, it's not practical to carry more than just a few tools, and I pick the tools that are most LIKELY to be called upon in the UNLIKELY event I'll need to use them. I dress professionally or business professional regularly, and casually when not working. Business attire gives me the ability to comfortably conceal a handgun and one mag (along with keyring with 5 keys, cell phone, pocket folder knife, wallet). With casual dress I can conceal maybe one or two more items with more discomfort. I generally chose nothing more except a flashlight at night.
While a multi-tool would be handy about 1% of the time it's bulk and weight are rarely warranted unless camping. The bulk and weight of a spare magazine are also not warranted (IMO) unless traveling into a rougher area.
The reason for this belief is from the above testing. One can't prepare for every scenario. For those that carry an extra mag, what if your gun breaks? For those that carry an extra gun, what if both guns fail? Or, even worse, what if the perp grabs your spare gun in a physical struggle and now you've armed the perp?

While it makes sense in some situations, I don't and won't generally carry a spare mag or gun because of the extremely rare failure in my self-defense gun. If I felt that my semi-auto would fail, I would get a different semi-auto or magazine or use different ammo or, if that failed, I would chose a revolver because they are more reliable.

Hope this ADDS something to the discussion ...