EMB-Bullets (former Hirtenberger, now Fiocchi) any experience

[Para Bellum]

In search for the perfect delf defense ammo (perferably in 9x19mm) I have found this:
http://www.globalarms.net/images/hp_emb/emb_40S&W.jpg

The EMB, "EXPANSIONS - MONOBLOCK BULLET".
Looks like a great concept. Penetrates hard targets without expanding. Expands in soft targets. No hollowpoint. More info here (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb0.htm).

Do any of you have experience with this ammunition?

[Mark54g]

similar in concept to Pow'rball, but looks like a smart idea. Wonder if they are NJ legal

[Sulaco2]

Not

[Para Bellum]

I'll try to get some EMBs and wetpack-test them against EFMJs...

[JohnKSa]

That's a little on the light side, IMO. I'd prefer something closer to 7.5grams

[Para Bellum]

That's a little on the light side, IMO. I'd prefer something closer to 7.5grams
I thought so, too. Thats why by now I prefer 124gr EFMJ bullets (http://le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section=1&page=pages/federal/fed_pistol_tatical.asp). But our Austrian Police uses 6 grams / 93gr Hirtenberger FL bullets. :confused: Maybe speed is a bonus?

Since I mentioned the 124gr 9x19mm EFMJ, here's some more about them:

Click here for my own test (http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm).

Here a pic of a 9x19mm 124gr EFMJ going throgh 1" of gelatine:
http://www.patricks-home.de/efmj/efmjgel.jpg

or some plywood:
http://www.patricks-home.de/efmj/efmjply.jpg

[Para Bellum]

yep, they are legal. I just bought some (6g).

Stay safe.

[Jehzsa]

Hello Para Bellum,
Would you mind sending a couple of boxes over here to me? Both 9mm and .45acp. If it's not too much trouble, that is. :rolleyes:

:D

[Para Bellum]

I'd love to. If you clear Austrian-Export and US-Import Authorities... :o
I am pretty impressed with this Ammo: (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb4.htm)

Energy: E10 " 625 J
E0 " 650 J

this is equivalent to:
" 2 x .38 Special
" 1,3 x 9 mm Para (standard FJ-round)
" lower end of E0 - scale of .357 Mag.

650j = 490ft/lbs

I can't wait to see if our tests proove this!
stay tuned...(and safe)

[LAK]

Nice action photos :)

[Trip20]

Don't know much about the .357sig, but it looks like it's out-performing the competition in the link Para provided in his first post.

[Para Bellum]

Trip20: Don't know much about the .357sig, but it looks like it's out-performing the competition in the link Para provided in his first post.

Could be. We'll test it soon. What they say in that link (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb4.htm) is:

EXPANSIONS - MONOBLOCK BULLET
( EMB - bullet )
Caliber 9 x 19 mm Luger

Velocity: v10 = 500 m/s (mean value) - EMB 5,0 g
v10 = 455 m/s (mean value) - EMB 6,0 g
fired from NATO test barrel 200 mm length

Energy: E10 " 625 J
E0 " 650 J

this is equivalent to:
" 2 x .38 Special
" 1,3 x 9 mm Para (standard FJ-round)
" lower end of E0 - scale of .357 Mag.

But they also say in another page of that link (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb6.htm):

CARTRIDGE 9 x 19 mm Luger with
EMB-bullet 6,0 g
(Expansions-Monoblock Bullet)

Technical datas:
Bullet weight: mp = 6,0 g ± 0,1 g
Bullet material: Guilding metal CuZn 10
Case: Brass CuZn 30, designed for Boxer-primer
Primer: Boxer-primer, priming composition "Antikorrid®" - rust proof and erosions resisting, or
heavy metal free -free of lead, barium and antimony
Propellant: Single- or double base powder
Ballistic datas in measuring barrel, barrel length 100 mm according to Technical Guidline of German Polizei-Führungsakademie: Pressure: Pmax =<2.700 bar bzw. =< 270 MPa (mean value)
Velocity: v10 = 415 m/s (mean value)
Energy: E10 ±517 J

...which doesn't really fit together, does it? Maybe the difference is all due to the different barrel lengths of 4" (100mm) and 8" (200mm).

Please also note that there is an EMB Bullet in .357 Sig, which outperforms a Saturn V Rocket. This data is also from that source (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb9.htm):

357 SIG EMB: mp = 6,0 g
v10 = 550 m/s
E10 = 900 J

Remarks: Same range of E0 - scale as .357 Magnum
Recoil like a conventional 9 mm Para round

So, I can't wait to see, how this 9x19mm EMB bullet performs in comparison to 9x19 EFMJ, .40 EFMJ, and .45 EFMJ... stay tuned :D

[Trip20]

As stated I have little knowledge of the .357sig.

Decided to do a search on TFL - found out it's a pretty "hot topic" amongst 9x19'ers and .357sig'ers.

-"No advantage in the .357sig that the 9x19+p+ can't offer..." ETC

-".357sig can pierce light armor and car doors..." ETC

LOL

It's almost like the 9x19/.40sw/.45acp arguments 'cept we now have an additional round to argue about.

Guess I'll have to read and formulate my own opinion about the round, rather than take opinions from TFL too seriously.

[Para Bellum]

...I think the entire calibre discussion can be summed up with a basic line:
More energy or diameter can't substitute placement. And if placement is well, penetration and expansion count.

[Trip20]

Very true.

My only concern in the .357sig vs 9x19 debate would be:

Does performance of the .357sig over the 9x19 outweigh the difference in cost and availability?

But hey, lets not let me hi-jack your thread ;)

There's plenty of this mumbo-jumbo to read on TFL and the rest of the internet w/out takin' this thread to a dark place (i.e. caliber debate). I had/have not read much about the .357sig and was suprised by the link you posted, and just wanted to mention so.

PS - I'll be looking forward to your updates/results.

[Chad Young]

Unfortunately, these rounds are considered AP here in the 'States and as such are not available to us mere peas......er, civilians.

I would like to know, however, why copper solid rounds (Barnes, Taurus, etc.) in handguns aren't considered AP but these are?

[Para Bellum]

I want to compare the 6g (93gr) EMB bullet in terms of energy with the 90gr Corbon in 9x19mm.

The EMB has the following data:
Velocity: v10 = 1361ft/sec (415 m/s, mean value) from a 4" (100mm) barrel (source (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb6.htm))

What is the v10* of Cor-Bon's 90gr 9x19mm bullet fired from a 4" barrel?
The data I found don't specify the barrel-length and whether it's v0* or v10*

*) Velocity after 0 or 10 Meters (~yds)

[Jehzsa]

FWIW, the bullet material on the EMB is guilding metal CuZn 10. Same material Hirtenberger has been making bullet jackets with for years now. I can't see why it can't be imported in the US. Anybody have a direct quote/cite on its prohibited status?

[JohnKSa]

I can't remember the definition of AP for pistol rounds, but my guess is that a solid copper/gilding metal bullet will qualify.

[Jehzsa]

Thank you, JohnKSa. We all know that BATFE will define whatever it, in its infinite wisdom, will deem categorizable. However, the AP round definition in this instance would seem to arise from the GCA, specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), i.e.,
...a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
...a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The material used in the EMB bullet is a copper-zinc alloy. Granted, I know very little about metallurgy and perhaps that's why I'm assuming, more than is prudently necessary but the EMB doesn't seem to fit those definitions. Unless, of course, the definition of beryllium copper is exactly that; a copper-zinc alloy.

[Cato]

Nowadays Fiocchi owns the patent and currently produces bullets here (I just got 150rds. of the 6 gramm 9mm EMB) but will ship the machine soon to the USA to produce them there. At least that is what I was told.

[mete]

The all copper Barnes bullet , as loaded by Cor-bon ,is not considered an AP round so I can't see that the EMB would be either since it expands...Gilding metal is often used for bullet jackets and is an alloy of copper with up to 10% zinc.

[CobrayCommando]

Oooohhhhh they can penetrate 1 inch of gelatin! I'll perk up when I see they can penetrate 12 inches, and actually expand to a respectable 55+caliber.

[Vitamin G]

I'm more impressed that it expanded that much after JUST 1 inch of gelatin...

And i think thats the general point...

[CobrayCommando]

Any decent hollowpoint will.

[MikeOrick]

If you like the light/fast stuff...

Another alternative is Magtech's First Defense SCHP (solid copper hollow point). A 92.6g bullet at 1365 fps from my G17 and BHP.

Through 6 layers of denim did about 12 inches/.63.

From the same gun the CorBon DPX (115g at 1310 fps) did 15/.58.

The FD and DPX seem to do a little better at penetration/expansion than the EMB/QD/PEP loads, are only a little slower from the same pistols.

The Europeans seem to want between 8-12 inches of penetration w max energy transfer. The FBI wants at least 12 inches, discounts energy transfer completely.