Defense at the Gas Station (among other places)

[Ace of Spades]

A few nights ago, some thug hit me with the mirror of his car and said I tried to damage his car after he tried to drive around my car where there wasn't room for a car to go. I had a BM Griptilian on me at the time, but no gun (situation to be rectified).

I need some detailed defense strategies for someone who is in good health, okay physical shape, overweight and around average upper body strength (extremely strong lower body strength and "tree trunk" legs).

First, let's start with what to do when a verbal threat is made - should I yell as loudly as I can "are you threatening me" to draw attention and get witnesses? Suggestions?

Next, if this provokes things, I would need to strike while the perp is getting out of the car, avoiding his car door, presumeably kicked open. It would stand to logic that kicking it back would unbalance him and aid in pinning him in the car so he can't get full purchase on the ground to strike, but if there are detailed strategies and techniques for this, it would certainly be helpful to know these, esp. since one could lose balance trying to kick it back and become a ready target for kicks and blows.

This is about as far as I've got in reassessing the situation. I've thought that pepper spray MIGHT be helpful after this initial attempt at egress by the perp. I also wonder about the use of a knife to disable.

I don't really want to think about using a gun, since I assume the perp is unarmed, just more muscular. This also affects the decision about using a knife.

I hope this is a worthwhile scenario and there will be lots of good input. Please, irrespective of what I might have done to diffuse things or other errors, let's assume that things are going down no matter what.

Legal suggestions about use of force and the continuum of force most welcome. I live in AL and I can use deadly force against assault.

[Blackwater OPS]

In this case getting back in your car and leaving would be your best bet. Call local PD of course. If you stab/shoot an unarmed individual in that situation you will go to jail for murder.(unless of course you are in GENUINE fear for your LIFE, then do what you have to for survival)

Also, "Get away from me" or even "Don't hurt me, please!" will do a lot more for you later on if you end up in court than the somewhat inflammitory "are you threatening me".

Pepper spray is pretty great, it will take down even the largest and most determined aggressor but it simply does not work on some people, with no apparent reason. I would rather get shot.(of course, I'v never been shot, but I have been sprayed it hurts more than you can imagine)

I could inform you about "detailed strategies and techniques" but it will do you ZERO good because you will forget it all when the adrenalin starts flowing. The only way to overcome this is constant repetitive training. In the life threatening situations I have been in, everything happened to fast I had no time to think, I don't even remember doing some of the things I did, they seem incredible to me, even hard to believe. The point is, even if you carry a gun, the only thing that will save you is good, professional training.

P.S. force continuum as it applys to you(not a uniformed cop)=
1. Verbal Commands
2. Unarmed Self Defense
3.OC(pepper) Spray
4. Other NON_DEADLY Force likely to cause serious injury(IE Crowbar to the kneecap)
5.Presentation of Deadly Force(I do not reccomend this without promtly following with 6)
6. Deadly Force(gun, knife, crowbar to the head, boot to the head, ect., anthing that kills the guy PERIOD. If it killed him it was deadly force.)
Keep in mind you should be using ONE level of force ABOVE what your aggressor is using.

[Mannlicher]

uhhhhhhhh drive away?

[stephen426]

You had a knife... You don't know if he was armed. You had a potential "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" situation. If you used the knife and you killed him, you are going to jail for man slaughter minimum. If you asked if he was threatening you and then approached him anyways, a DA might even go for the full murder charge. If you didn't pull the knife but kicked the door back to him, you could still face assault and or battery charges if he called the cops.

The law is tough in that way. A pre-emptive strike be comes an offensive strike unless you can prove that it would have been self defense. That seems like a tough one unless you have either a bunch of witnesses say he was going for a weapon or have video footage of it. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of force.

As for your comment:
I live in AL and I can use deadly force against assault.

According to http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault
assault 1) v. the threat or attempt to strike another, whether successful or not, provided the target is aware of the danger. The assaulter must be reasonably capable of carrying through the attack. In some states if the assault is with a deadly weapon (such as sniping with a rifle), the intended victim does not need to know of the peril. Other state laws distinguish between different degrees (first or second) of assault depending on whether there is actual hitting, injury or just a threat. "Aggravated assault" is an attack connected with the commission of another crime, such as beating a clerk during a robbery. 2) n. the act of committing an assault, as in "there was an assault down on Third Avenue." Assault is both a criminal wrong, for which one may be charged and tried, and civil wrong for which the target may sue for damages due to the assault, including for mental distress.

Now if you were talking about assault with a deadly weapon, then you are justified in using deadly force. The best thing is to call the police and let him be the agressor. If he leaves the scene of the accident, then he is in the wrong.

[Duxman]

There is a fine line in excercizing caution (getting in your car and driving away - potentially being charged with fleeing the scene of an accident - a crime in a lot of states - not sure about AL) and getting out and talking to the person who caused an accident (potentially escalating a road rage situation).

Common sense is probably your best weapon. If the person is physically imposing to you and is angry. Getting on your cell phone with the windows rolled up and calling the cops is the best bet. If they get out and approach you and you feel threatened, getting out of there is the best bet. Then call the cops and report.

If possible walk to the service station cashier area and report the incident there. Obviously if late at night, safety should be your first concern.

Starting a firefight in the middle of a gas station (where smoking is dangerous) is probably not a good idea. :D

[Blackwater OPS]

If you leave to avoid a confrontation, and call the cops while you are doing so, you will not be charged with fleeing.

[Clinot]

Second the yelling part, but only if the situation is at that point. You don't want to turn a 30 second chest-puffer situation into a deadly force encounter.

Nothing wrong with leaving.

Unless you know how to exit a vehicle with a threat exterior to your door, dont. The winner is generally always the person outside the car.

Since in your situation that was you, what would you do then? You realize kicking the door back on him pins his leg between the door and the frame, now what? Or you did a kickback on the door, it nailed him, he stumbles out of the car, now what? Are you going to keep escalating this situation? You've become the aggressor, on a situation where you need not have been, now what?

Nothing wrong with leaving.

[kennybs plbg]

If you assulted me by kicking my door while I tried to get out and then pulled a knife on me while I was getting up after your assult you'd be toast and I would be justified in doing so.

kenny b

[pax]

Ace of Spades ~

Avoiding the situation in the first place would be the best and most definitely legal answer. Having rejected that best answer, you're now looking for some specific physical skills.

Okay. Here's the physical skill appropriate for a confrontation between someone in a car and yourself as the pedestrian: when he drives his car into your body, you scream and then start bleeding in a tactical manner. (Oh, you could have run off, through someplace a car couldn't follow, before that point. But that would be avoiding or defusing, and would leave your car to get a paint scratch on it. Never mind.)

But let's say instead the driver gets out of his car. He's decided to beat on you by hand instead of using the deadly weapon he's driving.

At that point, you can use deadly force against him if it's a radically unfair fight -- for instance, if he's got a weapon, or if you're three times his age and crippled. Otherwise, you probably aren't legally justified in pulling a gun or a knife, and will have to figure out how to defuse the situation now since you didn't avoid it in the first place. If you can't defuse it, you're going to have to decide whether to beat on each other now, or draw your weapon and let the legal system beat on you later.

By the way, there are laws against fist fighting, too. Deciding to fight by hand instead of with weapons doesn't mean you'll stay out of court if you help escalate a confrontation to that point. But the penalties are generally lower and you might even avoid being a felon.

Other than learning how to avoid such situations, there's not a lot else that anybody can profitably teach you about physical fighting over the internet.

pax

A committment to avoidance, deescalation and deterrence is your number one option for personal security. -- Andy Stanford

[Ace of Spades]

If you assulted me by kicking my door while I tried to get out and then pulled a knife on me while I was getting up after your assult you'd be toast and I would be justified in doing so.




Would this be after you assaulted me with a deadly weapon - your car- threatened additional violence, and then got out to make good on that threat - I couldn't assume you were just asking for a Red Cross donation, could I?

[Ace of Spades]

(Oh, you could have run off, through someplace a car couldn't follow, before that point. But that would be avoiding or defusing, and would leave your car to get a paint scratch on it. Never mind.)

For $500 the deductible cost, I think I'd do what it took to defend my property.

Where exactly would I go that wouldn't leave me vulnerable? I can't leap over his car, nor mine. I don't want to leave my best means of escape behind and I damned sure don't want to turn my back. I'm hearing lots of pat answers here.

[USP45usp]

Ace,

What is the point of this? He was in the wrong, you were on the sidewalk, break out our cell and call the cops. If he moved toward you in a manner that you were in true fear of your life, then whatever happens, happens.

You should have called the cops with tag, make/model of vehicle, and describtion of the person and then went to the ER for being hit and than sued. Hit them in the pocket book, they change their ways.

I'm not sure that I will agree with your actions though. But I wasn't there, so I really can't comment.

Wayne

[pax]

Where exactly would I go that wouldn't leave me vulnerable?
Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a pat answer. What I'd pictured was that you were standing on the passenger side of your car, which was parked with the driver's side toward the pump. The guy wanted to drive through where you were standing. Your initial description certainly made it sound like a slow motion event, suggesting you had time to move around toward the front of your car, and then perhaps duck between to the other side of the pumps.

If it had happened elsewhere, getting away from the road by dashing between some buildings might have worked. Or perhaps even simply turning and walking the opposite direction from the direction his vehicle was moving.

Not sure I follow your comment about the $500 deductable. Are you saying that was worth more to you than your life?

pax

[kennybs plbg]

A few nights ago, some thug hit me with the mirror of his car and said I tried to damage his car after he tried to drive around my car where there wasn't room for a car to go. I had a BM Griptilian on me at the time, but no gun

I went to the local gas station and this guy was parked poorly leaving little room for others to get by. As I carefully tried to manuver around his vehicle, he must of thought I was comming too close to his vehicle for his liking and he knocks the mirror off my vehicle as I pass. I pull over to check the damage and call the police, this guy starts yelling and shouting at me at the top of his lungs. I quickly try to get out and make it to the safety of the building as he approaches but he kicks my door closed as I'm getting out, knocking me to the ground. I try to get to my feet and he has a knife pulled waiting for me to get up. ( all this on video too) at this point I was only defending myself against some nut and trying to stop his attack on me.

You started out by calling him a thug, then proceeded to say he said you damaged his car, not yelled, screamed etc. This is what normal people do. It sounds like your over reacting.

kenny b

[PythonGuy]

Hey Ace, why would you risk your life, freedom, and the right to own arms to get back at a punk who is either crazy, drunk, high, or all of the above? Its silly, just take his plate number and call the cops, watch how fast he gets arrested. As another poster pointed out, at a gas station there is probably video of the whole thing. I get mad too but learned long ago to control my temper and do things the legal way. In the calm light of day in a courtroom, YOU will sound like the thug and do you really need that hassle??

[XavierBreath]

Where exactly would I go that wouldn't leave me vulnerable? Gotta agree with Pax here. It sounds as if simply standing between your car and the gas pump to pump gas would have been a good solution. If we aren't seeing your situation correctly, please elaborate.

For $500 the deductible cost, I think I'd do what it took to defend my property.If I could give back the life I have taken for $500 and live as though it never happened, I would burn my ass getting my wallet out. Forcing a confrontation that could turn deadly for $500 is ignorant. Walk or drive away. Money is cheap and easily replacable. Life and limb is not.

[stephen426]

If I could give back the life I have taken for $500 and live as though it never happened, I would burn my ass getting my wallet out. Forcing a confrontation that could turn deadly for $500 is ignorant. Walk or drive away. Money is cheap and easily replacable. Life and limb is not.

Please make sure you qualify these types of comments. If I walked up to you with a weapon as you were making a withdrawel from the ATM and said "pull out $500 for me too", would you simply oblige? If so, please tell me where you live. I promise I will only ask for $500! :eek: :D :p

When do we really know if we are going to get shot like dogs even if we comply? That is a question probably none of us will ever be able to answer until it happens. That is why we always try to take control of the situation and not leave our lives hanging in the control of some thug.

I do see your point and I do value human life. I work hard for what I have and I don't think I should part with my belongings because some lazy ass who probably never worked a day in his life takes a fancy to my stuff. If someone physically assaulted me, I would defend myself. I would probably go with non-lethal options first, but would gladly oblige and go all out if the bad guy produced a weapon. I'm sorry but I'm not going to just roll over and give them what they want!

[XavierBreath]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to just roll over and give them what they want!I'm not saying roll over. I am saying that I will avoid having to take another life.

If some guy bumps into my car, bumps his car into me, or embezzles $500 from my business, I will not kill him. I will likely not even confront him, because that may lead to my having to kill him. That does not mean the issue will not be addressed.

If you walked up to me with a weapon as I was making a withdrawal from the ATM and said "pull out $500 for me too", it is a different issue, as I would then be defending my life, not my property or some BS code of honor that values itself more than human life.

Does that qualify it enough for you?

[stephen426]

If some guy bumps into my car, bumps his car into me, or embezzles $500 from my business, I will not kill him. I will likely not even confront him, because that may lead to my having to kill him. That does not mean the issue will not be addressed.

Xavier,
I appreciate the fact that you value human life over material possessions. In Miami, car jackers were intentionally bumping cars and then car jacking the vehicles when the owners got out of the car to inspect the damage. Will I confront a person who bumps into me rather than simply leving? Absolutely. I believe people have to be responsible for their carelessness (if that is what happened). If someone bumps into my person with their vehicle, I sure as hell will confront them. It would probably be along the lines of "Watch where the F*** you are going A**hole". He could seriously injure someone and should be reprimanded for his carelessness. If he gets stupid about it, you can always call the cops.

[XavierBreath]

It would probably be along the lines of "Watch where the F*** you are going A**hole". He could seriously injure someone and should be reprimanded for his carelessness. If he gets stupid about it, you can always call the cops.
Stephen,
We will likely have to agree to disagree.
My point is, if he gets stupid about it, you will not have time to call the cops. I don't begrudge anyone the right to self defense. I refuse to trade self determination in for self defense, however. When you react in this manner, the other person is in control of you and your future. It's the very person you don't want to have that control.

Remember, when the other person gets stupid, they will not wait for you to call the cops. You must respond to the altercation you have assisted in forming. The cops will arrive though, in 15 minutes, after somebody else calls them.

[bedula32]

Instigating a confrontation is doing something out of the norm. Calling someone a bad name who bumps your car, or you for that matter, is not out of the norm. It also is not reasonable to conclude that yelling at a moron will likely bring about a need to then use deadly force. If the moron is doubly dumb and takes great offense at being told of their deficiencies after the "genius" hits you or your car then you obviously need to THEN back down but that is not to say you simply have to keep your mouth completely shut in the first place no matter what happens to you or your property just because you are armed. Now, you call the moron a name and threaten to beat him up and he pulls a knife/gun and you pull a gun and shoot him and you are in a world of hurt but only because you threatened violence or took verbal beratement to a point where any reasonable person would conclude you were picking a fight as there is a line where even verbal condemnation could be deemed excessive such that it might be reasonable to believe you were instigating a physical confrontation but that is not the same thing as an initial reaction to someone else's asinine behavior that causes you damage.

A lot of this is subjective, and could well be subjective in a courtroom, but odds are extremely good that you would be OK and not liable criminally (and all this assumes the judge/jury sees things how they really happened) if what you did was in fact within societal norms. You bump ANYONE's car, or ANYONE's person, and odds are you will get an earful and that is not in and of itself that person instigating a violent confrontation. Go bump a judges, or attorneys, or a cops car (or bump them with your car) and I assure you they will likely not keep their mouth shut and say nothing negative to the you just because you might maybe get all violent by getting yelled at for a few seconds. Yelling at someone who does you harm is totally reasonable and normal. It is taking it beyond that, or at least not trying to diffuse it once you realize the moron is looking for a fight, that will get you into trouble. Sadly most people who are so stupid and utterly irresponsible that they bump other people with their car are likely to be the same losers who would take offense at being berated for it.

All that having been said, getting older has mellowed me a lot and I would have likely held my tongue altogether, got the plate number and description of the guy so I could ID him later when he claimed he lent the car to someone else and it wasn't him, then call the cops to try for charges of hit and run or vehicular battery or assault with a deadly weapon, and then call my attorney to bring a civil action for vehicular battery and assault. Being passive/aggressive is probably the best strategy with these mindless dopes we have floating around our society who act the way the original poster described. Still, you do not have to remain totally mute either when you are done wrong just because you are armed, though that is probably best.

[spacemanspiff]

should I yell as loudly as I can "are you threatening me"
only if you pull your shirt up over your head and hold your arms up while challenging your potential attacker. you can then follow up with a statement like 'i am the great cornholio!'

absolutely guaranteed* to thwart any attacker.





* - not an actual guarantee.

[Jim Keenan]

Some of this sounds like "I am determined to shoot some SOB if he bothers me and nothing anyone can say will talk me out of it."

A great attitude for anyone who wants to spend a lot of time in a small room with a stainless steel toilet.

Jim

[stephen426]

I think bedula32 has a very good grasp of the point I am trying to make. While I try very hard not to look for trouble, I am not going to simply walk away from a situation in which someone has wronged me because I want to avoid a possible altercation. I will react in a "reasonable" manner and not make any threats to the person.

I always try to assume the best and will approach in a calm manner. I will state the facts and what I want done. For example: "You hit my car. Do you wnt to have a police report taken or do you want to pay me a fair amount for reasonable damages?" If the person does not have enough money on them or the dmage is significant, I will call the police. I am not about to get stuck with the repair bill for someone else's carelessness. Is this potentially confrontational? I guess anything could be confrontational with the wrong people.

I won't escalate but I won't bend over either.

XavierBreath,
I agree to disagree. I thank you for keeping a respectful attitude despite our different points of view. You are definately one of the better TFLers

[lawboy]

we have a multi billion dollar industry in this country to deal with the situation where someone accidently bumps you or your car. It is called the insurance industry, and everyone in the country who drives is required by law to be a part of that industry. If you are insured, and an "accident" happens, there is no need to get upset at the person who hit you. Accidents happen. We all know that, that is why we have an insurance industry and laws mandating insurance. So, when you are in an accident, you don't have to teach anybody anything, or get mad, or reprimand the guy who hit you. You knew before you ever met this person, that someone could hit you on accident, or you them. All you have to do is exit your car if you are not injured, smile at the guy, inquire if he is hurt or needs help, then exchange insurance information, get a police report, and go on your merry way. File your claim, and work it out like civilized people in a civilized society that has had the foresight to develop an industry to resolve these issues long before you were ever born. The yelling, name calling, and "teaching a lesson to a moron," who may be smarter, better educated, higher paid and a superior citizen to you, is so god damn ignorant that it is hard to believe anyone carrying a gun every day would even have those kinds of thoughts. Jesus Christ. Grow up.

[mvpel]

It is called the insurance industry, and everyone in the country who drives is required by law to be a part of that industry.
In New Hampshire, auto insurance isn't required by law - people are still allowed to self-insure - and as a result we have low insurance prices and a fairly low rate of uninsured motorists.

Meanwhile in Massachusetts, the insurance companies are fighting to be allowed to charge bad drivers more. I wonder if that's why the motorists down there are so angry all the time...

[springmom]

I'm still not sure I have this picture in my head correctly. Were you pumping gas and somebody hit your car? With their mirror? I'm trying to visualize that, and failing. We could probably be more useful if you could be more detailed and clear about exactly what happened.

That said, a couple of things come to mind:

1) If there is an auto accident of any description, the thing to do is exchange insurance information and if someone is really upset, suggest that you call the police. In this area (Texas) you are required to move any accident off the road if you can, but since your problem happened in a gas station, I'd move off to the area where people park when they are going in to buy a soda or whatever inside, and then exchange insurance info and just go from there.

2) As I noted a few days ago on another thread, the single most important self defense weapon you have is between your ears. Use your head. Try to avoid making things worse. You don't have to "bend over and take it" but you don't have to pour gasoline on the hot coals either.

3) If, God forbid, someone pulls a gun on you at a gas station, the rules of shooting come into play....remember that, to quote the commander of the Red October in the movie "most things in here don't react well to bullets". LIke gasoline. Another REALLY good reason not to let this get too hot, yes?

4) If someone is yowling about you having damaged his car, then launches into verbal abuse, go back and see #1 and explain...calmly...that you have insurance and you just both need to get each others' insurance info, blah blah blah. This is not worth going to the mattresses about.

5) This is a website about firearms and their use. I just went back and re-read your initial post again...If you want to learn self-defense strategies that do NOT involve a gun (and I hope to God you're not saying you would have used a gun in this situation?) then I'd suggest a martial arts course for you. My son has done kung fu and you don't have to be a super duper athlete to start (although if you keep it up you'll become one!)

6) Finally, the cheapest and yet most valuable words on the planet are "I'm sorry". OK, it wasn't your fault. Goodness, if you're married you've surely learned that you still sometimes apologize even when it ISN'T your fault. In this case, "Oh, man, I'm sorry! Let's exchange our insurance info. I'll call a police officer so he can do a report." Real calm. No crisis-mode.

Please accept MY apology if I have totally misunderstood what happened to you. Hope all this helps a bit.

Springmom

[stephen426]

we have a multi billion dollar industry in this country to deal with the situation where someone accidently bumps you or your car. It is called the insurance industry, and everyone in the country who drives is required by law to be a part of that industry. If you are insured, and an "accident" happens, there is no need to get upset at the person who hit you. Accidents happen. We all know that, that is why we have an insurance industry and laws mandating insurance. So, when you are in an accident, you don't have to teach anybody anything, or get mad, or reprimand the guy who hit you. You knew before you ever met this person, that someone could hit you on accident, or you them. All you have to do is exit your car if you are not injured, smile at the guy, inquire if he is hurt or needs help, then exchange insurance information, get a police report, and go on your merry way. File your claim, and work it out like civilized people in a civilized society that has had the foresight to develop an industry to resolve these issues long before you were ever born. The yelling, name calling, and "teaching a lesson to a moron," who may be smarter, better educated, higher paid and a superior citizen to you, is so god damn ignorant that it is hard to believe anyone carrying a gun every day would even have those kinds of thoughts. Jesus Christ. Grow up.

Law Boy,

What if the guy that hit your car blames you for the accident and then starts berating you when it was either their own carelessness, stupidity, or both that caused the accident. I'm not advocating violence, just stating the fact that there are a lot of stupid people out there.

As for insurance, where do you live? How much do you pay? What is your deductable? I live in South Florida and our insurance rates are among the highest in the nation (due to our incredible driving skill of our population:rolleyes: ). I have full umbrella coverage ($10 million) to protect people from sueing my business. My deductable is $1000. If I make a claim my insurance will go up. Now do you think that it is fair for me to pay God knows how much more a year because some jack*ss can't drive worth a crap? I wil lbe civil but he or she had better take responsibility for their actions. I will call the police and get a report. I'm sorry if I'm not as nice or calm as you but I'm not going to be all nice if they start talking crap and it is their fault!

One other thing... If you know so much about the insurance industry, you will also know that they are not into the business of losing money. When people make claims, they jack up the rates. Plain and simple. I'm just wondering how badly I'm going to get shafted for my wind storm and flood insurance.

[spacemanspiff]

insurance rates don't automatically increase because you file a claim. many companies use what is called 'experience rating', which estimates the maximum amount of losses you might have had over the past few years based on your current premium. if you have no losses, or your losses are below the maximum, you get a credit. should they go over, they make a debit. there is some science to it, but so far we havent been able to figure it out. its not as simple as saying 'x divided by y = z, if a < z = -15%; if a = z = 1.00; if a > z = +15%.

[Trip20]

Spiff - I actually experience rate high risk commercial auto policies from time to time.

The credit/debit amount is based on the Expected Loss Ratio compared to the Actual Loss Ratio.

Your Expected Loss Ratio is a factor (i.e. .458), which is derived from the amount of premium paid during the experience period - when brought to basic limits. What this says is, a risk who has paid X in premium over the experience period, is expected to have Y amount in losses.

Your Actual Loss Ratio is the actual ratio between losses and premium for the risk. You paid X, and had Y in losses.

Other things which factor into this are things such as "credibility", which is a factor based on the amount of basic limits premium paid during the experience period, same as the Expected Loss Ratio (typical experience periods are about 3 years).

Unfortunately, I'm encountering an error when trying to upload the images, which show the experience mod formula for both debit/credit.

If your interested, I can send them to you via email.

[lawboy]

SELF INSURANCE IS INSURANCE. When you self insure you step into the shoes of an insurance company on your own behalf. You do this BEFORE any accident in one of several ways defending on state law. Most of the time it consists of posting a bond of at least a statutory minimum amount. So, when you get into an accident, you now have the funds to: buy an attorney, settle a case, pay damages if you are at fault, etc. It is insurance, just provided by yourself as the "dollar one" coverage entity.
So ... like I said, just get out, thank god we have a good system, exchange info., hope no one is hurt, and continue on your way. All this acrimony is for morons.
As for the high price of insurance, that has to do with UNINSURED MOTORISTS. From the story, our guy had no idea if this guy had insurance or not so his angst was premature.

[lawboy]

Another thing ... your $10 million in umbrella coverage is smart thinking and responsible. You have a lot to protect.
Now let me tell you the quickest way for you to lose that coverage.
The other driver is a moron as you say and he denies everything, curses you and gets in your face. You respond in kind. It escalates and he comes at you with a wrench or whatever. You shoot him.
Now the witnesses tell the responding officers that it was a mutual verbal free for all until that guy attacked you and you shot him. To the police, that is a mutual "fighting words" scenario where you were equally at fault for escalating the situation. Actually, you were more responsible because you knew you had a gun and that you could over power the other guy and may have baited him so you could shoot him.
So, the D.A. gets a copy of the incident report and filed a criminal complaint againt you. YOu may plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, or a lesser felony, maybe not.
But here is the really fun part ... you have just lost ALL OF YOUR PRIMARY AND EXCESS COVERAGE. How, well, in every state in this nation, it is againt public policy to allow someone to insure against intentional misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance (the latter where a duty to act is owed). The criminal case establishes that your act was intentional. So, when you tender your defense to your primary ins. co., they will deny it citing an intentional act. Now, you have no excess coverage because it only kicks in once the dollar-one coverage has been exhausted.
Now you will sue them for bad faith -- that case will be up on appeal six years later. Meanwhile, the wrongful death or damages case from the guy you shot will be waiting in the wings, along with another nine cases for intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress from the other people who witnessed you shot this guy to the ground with their kids also watching from the backseats of their minivans. You will likely lose everything you have paying hourly for the case against your ins. co. so the others will just be gravy by the time you get around to them. Business, gone. Wife, gone. Life Over!

Mind you, I am not an ins. expert. I am a litigation attorney who defense police departments and sheriff's departments against excessive force and civil rights claims. Now, those officers have more immunities and defenses than you can dream of. Still, we settle plenty of cases where nothing wrong was done except some officer cursed at a citizen or was an ahole with witnesses around. That kind of thing can get you hammered even when there is not a shooting involved.

All that being said, it is your life so do as you will. After all, "you da man."

[Eghad]

I dont think I am going to exit the car if the other fellow is mad and yelling...lol. Now if he decides to break the window glass and join me we have a slight problem.

[stephen426]

SELF INSURANCE IS INSURANCE. When you self insure you step into the shoes of an insurance company on your own behalf.

How many people can afford to self insure realistically? If you have some serious assets, scumbag accident attorneys will be knocking down the door of the guy you barely rear ended and coaching him how to milk you out of your money. The will tell them that it is just like winning lotto. Have you ever sat home during a weekday and watched how many stupid accident attorney commercials there are? I'm not saying all attorney are scumbags, but many accident attorneys fall in that catagory. (Please don't tell me that a multimillion dollar suit won't seem excessive if I was the one injured :rolleyes: )

So ... like I said, just get out, thank god we have a good system, exchange info., hope no one is hurt, and continue on your way. All this acrimony is for morons.

Wouldn't it be nice if all people owned up to their mistakes and acted in a rational manner? The original post mentioned that this guy hit his car and then proceeded to blame the other guy for the accident. Does this sound like a nice calm rational guy who you can simply exchange info with? :rolleyes: What Utopia do you live in? Besides, are you implying that we are all morons? As for why insurance rates are high, who cares that it is because of uninsured drivers? They are high and insurance is mandatory in pretty much every state (At least PIP). As for our original poster's "angst", how would you feel if some guy hit your car and started getting stupid about it?

[stephen426]

Another thing ... your $10 million in umbrella coverage is smart thinking and responsible. You have a lot to protect.
Now let me tell you the quickest way for you to lose that coverage.
The other driver is a moron as you say and he denies everything, curses you and gets in your face. You respond in kind. It escalates and he comes at you with a wrench or whatever. You shoot him.
Now the witnesses tell the responding officers that it was a mutual verbal free for all until that guy attacked you and you shot him. To the police, that is a mutual "fighting words" scenario where you were equally at fault for escalating the situation. Actually, you were more responsible because you knew you had a gun and that you could over power the other guy and may have baited him so you could shoot him.
So, the D.A. gets a copy of the incident report and filed a criminal complaint againt you. YOu may plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, or a lesser felony, maybe not.
But here is the really fun part ... you have just lost ALL OF YOUR PRIMARY AND EXCESS COVERAGE. How, well, in every state in this nation, it is againt public policy to allow someone to insure against intentional misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance (the latter where a duty to act is owed). The criminal case establishes that your act was intentional. So, when you tender your defense to your primary ins. co., they will deny it citing an intentional act. Now, you have no excess coverage because it only kicks in once the dollar-one coverage has been exhausted.
Now you will sue them for bad faith -- that case will be up on appeal six years later. Meanwhile, the wrongful death or damages case from the guy you shot will be waiting in the wings, along with another nine cases for intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress from the other people who witnessed you shot this guy to the ground with their kids also watching from the backseats of their minivans. You will likely lose everything you have paying hourly for the case against your ins. co. so the others will just be gravy by the time you get around to them. Business, gone. Wife, gone. Life Over!

Wow! You predicted exactly what is going to happen simply based the fact that I am going to "confront" some guy about hitting my car. You even predicted what a witness would say and that the other guy would produce a weapon. Lets break this up in parts. I get out of the car and the guy gets in my face. I call the cops. He produces a deadly weapon, I shoot him. If he is the one who produced a weapon, I am entitled to defend myself. You are assuming I am going to raise bloody hell at a guy for hitting my car. If the guy gets stupid, I just callthe cops. If he attacks me, I sure as hell will defend myself. As for my umbrella coverage, I'm not sure it covers anything not directly related to the accident. As for all of the other crap you threw in there... along with another nine cases for intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress from the other people who witnessed you shot this guy to the ground with their kids also watching from the backseats of their minivans., I'm ot sure where you get this stuff. I guess you have to defend the police department from all those types of suits as well everytime an officer shoots a bad guy. :rolleyes:

I guess since you are an attorney (or at least claim to be) you have all the answers. That is why our legal system is so F$%&(* UP. Besides, with the pathetic juries I have served with, I find it hard to believe that anyone gets convicted of anything anymore. :barf:

If I were a judge, I'd tell you to stick with the facts and not your cockamamie theories. (Speculation) Last time I checked, that is NOT what our legal system was based on. Besides, the fact that you defend police departments means you are most probably NOT a criminal attorney (although the term is often considered redundant :p ).

I truley hope that you don't ever find yourself in a situation like the one posted. Many people are much less rational than you give them credit for. I would encourage you to respond with the appropriate force if the guy is an idiot and decides to attack you.

[lawboy]

Just a couple of comments in reply.
First, I agree 100% percent with how you felt in the situation. I would be angry and feel abused by that guy as well. You are entitled to that and should not feel wrong in your anger or frustration. Please, understand that I agree with you there.
BUT, and as I tell my 6-year-old daughter, we DO NOT act in conformity with your feelings all the time. Instead, we try to act in conformity with reason and logic, and with caution and in light of our better judgment. So, while your feelings might point you towards an angry response, your MIND should control your actions in the direction of calmness, reason, etc. All the more so when you strap on a gun.

Second, I am not telling you what will happen, truly, we all know I cannot foretell the future. What I was demonstrating is how a seemingly okay, response in kind could spiral out of control to your everlasting detriment. Your comments about speculation, etc. in a lawsuit are straight up wrong. You demonstrate an absolute void of understanding of the rules of evidence, which do not change much from civil to criminal court. I neglected to mention that civil rights defense is not all I do. I do ALOT of tort defense and some tort plaintiff's work as well.

Like I said before, do what you will, "you da man."

As far as your liability insurance, if it covers your business and your house, then your excess will cover all the things your primary covers, which includes tortious conduct of any kind just about. Insurance is that way not to protect you, but to protect your creditors, who don't want you to default on your house loan and your commercial loans or mortgage due to some unfortunate accident you may cause. That is why insurance of this type developed to cover the things it does cover ... jeez.

[gdeal]

I like what BlackWater Ops said. Get the blank out of there. That is best for everyone. Just think Ace is still here to write about all this. Not in jail, not in the ground nor the hospital. Every true warrior will try to avoid a stupid confrontation first. They don't need to come down to that bar room brawl level. But if it is unavoidable, Yes good consistent training will come into play.