Buying a Safe is too Confusing.

[SaltySteve]

Hey everyone.
I'm looking for a safe for my rifles and whatnot. I only have afew but there are a couple of other things I want to store also. The thing is I don't know anything about them. I just started reading here about them and I am learning as I go. I have up to $1200 I can use for the purchase and don't want to make the mistake of spending it on junk. I'm hoping someone can steer me away from the bull and onto a Safe that is the most bang for my buck.
Looks don't matter.
Fire rating does.
Are there any paticular brands to avoid at all costs?

Thanks Steve...

[a1abdj]

Steve,

If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask me.

I sell a number of safes, but may not have what you're looking for. Even if I don't have what you need, I can point you in the right direction.

I am not somebody that just sells safes....I am a commercial locksmith that specializes in safes and vaults.

[MDW Guns]

If you have $1,200 to spend on a safe, you should get one which is fire resisted.
Not only you can keep you gun(s) safe in there, but other values and papers.
They are a pain to move so!:D

[Pointer]

Count the number of slide bolts around the door... more is better.

Thicker door is better too.

Most gunsafes are really fire-safes with very secure locking mechanisms...
So check on the temperature/time ratio... how long at what temp...
the longer and higher the better.

Electronic combination pads are the most convenient but add to the expense...

If they tell you it's a 20 gun safe... think bull**** ...and figure on 10 maximum...

The taller ones are better because you will want two or more full shelves... up at your chest level or higher.

The lower portion should be open space with the guns against the wall... not in the middle...

Carpet kits are very nice but also add to the expense... :eek:

Shop carefully and be patient and you will find a bargain... I got mine at a gun show by buying a floor model from the display... :)

Bigger is worth the difference in cash...

It is a once in three generations purchase...
and a piece of furniture...
so don't buy something that looks like a piece of hud... :D :D

[a1abdj]

you should get one which is fire resisted.
Not only you can keep you gun(s) safe in there, but other values and papers.


This is what gun safe manufacturers want you to believe, but it's not true. Many gun safes may be ok for smaller amounts of valuables, and basic fire protection. Gun safes are not built to be as fire resistant or as secure as other safes designed specifically for those purposes.

There are some safes (gun safes included) which are built better than others.

Count the number of slide bolts around the door... more is better.

In some cases yes, and in some cases no. The weak link with any gun safe is the steel thickness. The thicker the better. Once you get to a decent level of plate (AMSEC BF series uses 1/2" plate), then the top and bottom bolts aren't as critical.

The additional bolts do come in handy on safes using thin steel. Many of the gun safes on the market are using 12 ga doors. Others use 10 gauge. Both are too thin and easy to pry apart.

Thicker door is better too.

Thicker steel in the door. Many of these safe doors are folded over to look thicker, but still don't use any substantial steel.

Most gunsafes are really fire-safes with very secure locking mechanisms

Most gun safes would not pass muster as a fire safe, and really aren't that secure. Many gun safe are just one step above a file cabinet.

So check on the temperature/time ratio... how long at what temp...
the longer and higher the better

If you want to take the word of the manufacturer. Each company tends to test their safes differently as there is no standardized fire testing for gun safes. One company's 60 minute safe may be built just like another company's 90 minute safe. Compare the construction more than the tag. 10gauge steel and two layers of fireboard should protect the same regardless of who makes the safe.

Electronic combination pads are the most convenient but add to the expense

And are less reliable over time. Mechanical locks tend to last forever, electronic locks are prone to failure. If you want speed, go electronic. If you want reliable, go mechanical.

If they tell you it's a 20 gun safe... think bull**** ...and figure on 10 maximum

100% correct. Each safe owner is going to have different weapons which require their own amount of space. If you add larger guns or optics, then it will reduce your space even more.

The taller ones are better because you will want two or more full shelves... up at your chest level or higher.


Some of the tall safes (72") are hard to get into homes. Keep that in mind before buying the safe, and run it by the person moving it first.

Carpet kits are very nice but also add to the expense

Here's a whole list of things that add to the cost, and don't mean a thing when it comes to gun safes:

Anything that's designed to thwart a drill: Diamond hard plate, angle in the frame, etc. Burglars don't use drills...locksmiths do.

Anymore than one relocker: If your relocker goes off, it's because somebody beat the lock on the safe. If they're that stupid, they won't be smart enough to defeat a relocking system.

Antipunch bolt systems: Again....burglars don't punch bolts on gun safes.

Bigger is worth the difference in cash

Some people prefer one larger safe.....I suggest multiple smaller safes. Keeping your eggs in seperate baskets keeps them more secure. It takes the same amount of time to break into these safes regardless of size. Multiple safes will increase that time per safe.

It is a once in three generations purchase...
and a piece of furniture

You shouldn't buy a safe because of how it looks, you should buy it because of what it can do. Many gun safe companies are more worried about look than function. There are real safes out there that look good too...and offer much better protection than a typical gun safe.

[Pointer]

a1abdj
Good stuff... thanks
they won't be smart enough to defeat a relocking system.

The smart ones won't try to come in the front door and through the locks...

There are simpler and faster ways... :rolleyes:

Get beauty and quality you still have to live with the darn thing...

I like the idea of three smaller safes over one large...
But that doubles the cost... :o

I have a friend who has the one which is half the size of mine (same height) and hew cannot afford another one nor has he a space to put another one...
If he gets one more rifle... he'll be wishing he had been able to get the bigger safe. :)

[SaltySteve]

Good info everyone. All the safes I see look alike. Are most of them built by the same people and renamed.

[a1abdj]

Many of the low end safes come from China and are relabled with the US company's name. Cannon, Liberty Centurions, and some of the Brownings are imported and labeled.

The only low priced gun safe that I've seen which is made in the US, is the Winchester safes sold at Sam's. They are built by Granite Security in Texas.

[SaltySteve]

So I guess my budget of $1200 is considered low. Lets say I have $2400 to spend. I was looking at the Fort Knox stuff. specificaly the Protector and the defender models. Much diff?? Am I on the right track? Also, what about the amsecusa stuff?

[rangermonroe]

I am very pleased with it, Both it's perceived quality and price.

A1A, do you consider this to be a "decent " safe?

I paid about $650 for it.

[Don H]

SaltySteve,

One option you may wish to explore is buying a used commercial safe from a locksmith/safe company. It's possible to get much more protection than a "gun safe" for the same, or less, money.

[a1abdj]

So I guess my budget of $1200 is considered low. Lets say I have $2400 to spend. I was looking at the Fort Knox stuff. specificaly the Protector and the defender models. Much diff?? Am I on the right track? Also, what about the amsecusa stuff?


I sell both of those, and have nothing bad to say about either. However, I think from a "real safe" standpoint, the AMSEC is a better unit. The Fort Knox looks nicer, but I think the AMSEC would protect your valuables better. I think the AMSEC BF series is one of the best buys in its price range.

A1A, do you consider this to be a "decent " safe?


Granite builds an OK safe, but they've been caught up in the price wars with China. They have been cutting corners to produce a less expensive safe. They aren't bad safes, but I think a 10 year old Granite is nicer than the new ones.

One option you may wish to explore is buying a used commercial safe from a locksmith/safe company. It's possible to get much more protection than a "gun safe" for the same, or less, money.

This is an excellent option. However, many commercial safes are far to heavy for residential installation and must be kept in a garage. The delivery will also usually run quite a bit more than it would for a lighter gun safe. If you can get your hands on a good used safe and keep it in your garage, you'd be much better off.

[hoghunting]

a1abdj,
Thank you for the straight forward answers and info. It is refreshing to hear from someone who knows what he is talking about because he is in that line of business.

[san_chang4837]

I was looking at safes at Wal-Mart last week. I saw a safe for $170. I think it was "sentry" (not sure). It was fire safe and water resistant (great for hurricanes). However, from what I have been seeing here, it would seem that this safe is too cheap to store a pistol (or two) in?

Is this safe good enough or should I get something else?

[a1abdj]

Is this safe good enough or should I get something else?

You should get something else, but not because of the quality of the safe. Sentry makes an excellent document safe. They are not very secure against theft, but they are very good protection from fire.

Document safes use a very moisture rich insulation, and the humidty levels within the safe are often too high for gun storage. I think Sentry even mentions this specifically in their owners manual.

Most types of document safes are constructed the same way, and there is really no way around it. The moisture will always be there, and there isn't any way to get rid of it without harming the safe's fire rating.

Sentry does make some regular steel safes without any fireproofing which would work well for handguns. I would look for a safe that is either all steel (no fireproofing), composite construction (dry fireproofing), or uses a dry insulation (gypsum).

[Pointer]

Lets say I have $2400 to spend

That's about right for the top of the line Browning Medallion

That's what I have (five years now) and I'm very happy... :)

Electronic key punch pad has been flawless and I haven't even had to change the battery yet.
I open it at least once a week... often more frequently.

It's pretty too! :D :D

[san_chang4837]

Thanks a lot for the advice!

[01locksmith]

I am a Liberty safe dealer and I would say the Liberty Franklin in any size gives you the best deal for your buck!

[SaltySteve]

Thanks guys, I'm doing my best to reply in a timley manner but I'm on a ship right now in the Med and I don't have continious access to Internet. I have been reading everyones responses and trying to check some of the sites and get prices but it's hard to do on a super slow Int Connection and limited time online. I hope to get home 1st week of May and make this purchase. I'm trying to get this thing narrowed down soon so I can pull the trigger on this ASAP. There's been a rash of breakins where I live (our town has doubled since Katrina) and I wouldn,t be able to live with myself if someone stole my weapons and used them against someone. So I'm looking for theft protection first then Fire Protection. I have no Garage so it will have to go in the house. Plenty of room in my house. I know I stated $1200 then $2400 budget, but in reality I will spend what ever I have to to get the job done. I'm just trying to make a smart purchase. I don't mind spending it but I can't stand wasting money.

[a1abdj]

Steve,

It all starts with what you have to protect. If you only have $5000 worth of stuff, it isn't worth spending $4,000 on a safe.

If you have anything worth more than $5,000 to $10,000, then you need to stay away from just about every gun safe on the market, as none of them will offer the protection you need (with a very few exceptions).

The more protection the safe offers, the more you will pay...unless you're looking at gun safes. I've seen $7,000 gun safes that wouldn't protect nearly as well as a $4,000 real safe.

[SaltySteve]

I suppose my biggest threat is the smash and grab type of hoods. you know, the crackheads and bored kids lookingfor something exciting to do. My belongings aren't that valuable but the potential libility value is high, I have a lot to lose in a cival lawsuit. If you know what I mean. I would be happy with something that someone like that could not walk out the door with.

[FirstFreedom]

It IS too confusing. But I've come to this opinion myself, on the subject of fire ratings:

As someone pointed out, you cannot trust the manufacturer's own internal test for fire rating. I'd buy one *ONLY* if the test was done by U.L. (underwriter's laboratory). I was going to buy a Liberty safe until I found out that the fire rating on the Libertys was done by some off-the-wall company called Omega or some such, and for all I know, Omega might be a wholly-owned subsidiary of Liberty (and therefore subject to extreme bias). Either it's UL tested to a certain number of minutes from a 1200 external temp until the inside reaches I think 350, or it's meaningless as not comparable to UL, or worse, potentially completely made-up. If I were you, I'd start off by finding the ones who have the UL fire rating you want (decide whether you want 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 75 minutes, 90 minutes, or 120 minutes). Then, among those, decide how many cubic feet you must have to meet your needs. Then, among those left, decide which are in or out of your price range. Finally, among those that are left, if any, look at the physical security features such as weight, number of locking lugs, whether the steel is bent or welded (bent is better), steel thickness (thicker the better), whether the hinges are extenal or internal (do NOT get one with external hinges - they are easy to defeat). That should get you started. Use MS Works to make a spreadsheet detailing your research.

[mohutley]

I've seen these safes for some time at the local gun show. They have a simple, very heavy duty, tightly crafted product and have been around for a good while. I can't afford one now, but I'm going to get one eventually. They always have lots of impressive pictures of their safes which people have tried to get into.

http://www.drakesafe.com/

[Crucis]

I just bought a Liberty safe---the Colonial model. It will be delivered Thursday. As I remember, there is a sticker placed on the inside edge of the door that gives it's fire rating. I thought it was a UL sticker. I'll let you know when it's delivered. Mine is last year's version. The current production fire rating is higher according to the web site.

[a1abdj]

As someone pointed out, you cannot trust the manufacturer's own internal test for fire rating. I'd buy one *ONLY* if the test was done by U.L. (underwriter's laboratory).


There's only one problem with this.....I have never, ever, seen a gun safe with a UL fire rating. Gun safe companies tend to use dry insulation, and only moist insulation can handle the higher temps that UL tests.

Also, in some cases a safe may very well pass the UL test, but for various reasons will not carry a tag. UL regulations state that all safes must be produced identical to the safe tested. If you change anything about the design, you have to resubmit for testing.

There are a lot of safe companies that build outstanding custom safes which can not carry UL tags for this reason. A UL rating isn't the end all be all, but it is a good benchmark.

there is a sticker placed on the inside edge of the door that gives it's fire rating. I thought it was a UL sticker

The UL sticker inside of your Liberty safe indicates that it kept a UL tech armed with a hammer and a screwdriver out of the safe for 5 minutes. This is a UL RSC (Residential Security Container) rating. Notice the Lab didn't refer to the unit as a "safe" but rather a "container". This is because most gun safes aren't really considered safes by professionals.

Liberty makes an OK product, but I believe they are one of the worst at deceptive marketing practices.

They always have lots of impressive pictures of their safes which people have tried to get into

Anybody that claims that nobody has ever broken into a safe they made is either a liar, or hasn't been in the safe business very long. Most gun safes are built out of very thin steel....this steel does not take on magical properties just because they form it into a box and mount a dial on it.

I've seen bank vaults compromised. I've seen 1.5" steel plate safes cut in half. I've seen 5,000 pound safes "walk off". A 12 gauge steel gun safe is 1/10" thick. Most gun safes are the wet paper bag of the safe business.

Most people will not encounter a professional burglar, and don't need bank type protection. Unfortunately, even a meth head can swing an axe or a hammer during a smash and grab.

Just weigh your options before making a decision. If you are willing to accept a little higher risk for a cheaper, less secure safe then that's fine....so long as you understand the risk. The problem I have with a lot of these gun safe companies, is that they mislead the consumer into thinking they are getting a far greater protection than they really were.

By the way...here's what 5 minutes with a sledge will do to a 12 gauge safe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/libertyburglary2.jpg

[SaltySteve]

At this point I'm leaning towards the Amsec BF 6032 or 6030 models or the Fort Knox Protector 6041 maybe the defender 6041. I wonder what the real diff is between the two Fort Knox safes are? If I had access to a phone I would just call them, but all I have is their ad that says they are mostly the same except for cosmetics. Well at least I'm narrowing it down some. By the way what Brand safe is that?

[a1abdj]

I sell a lot more of the AMSECs than I do Fort Knox. Most of my AMSEC sales are to buyers wanting a secure safe, and most of my Fort Knox sales are to collectors wanting a showpiece.

The Protector has gloss paint, pin stripes, and gold dial/handle. The Defender has textured paint, no stripes, and chrome dial/handle. They are both the exact same safe otherwise.

The safe in the photo I posted is a Liberty Centurion.

[UniversalFrost]

When you get back to port check out DRMO and see when they will have their next auction. I picked one up from my old bases DRMO for about 300 bucks that is mil spec and is fire and water resistant to mil standards, plus it came with an X09 lock worth a lot. If not I would also go with the winchester.

Also once you get it, don't foreget about a good dehumidifier to absorb the moisture. Check out www.midwayusa.com for good dehumidifiers.

[san_chang4837]

Also once you get it, don't foreget about a good dehumidifier to absorb the moisture. Check out www.midwayusa.com for good dehumidifiers.


Don't Ramen noodles come with free dehumidifiers????

LoL, after spending this much on a safe, I won't be able to buy anything but a hi-point :eek:

maybe a summer job...

[armabill]

So how do Champion Safes compare?

[a1abdj]

Most of your brand name safes are pretty similar. Browning, Liberty, Fort Knox, Champion, Cannon, etc....

The weak link is the thin steel. All of these companies use 12 gauge steel on their lower models, and 10 gauge on some of the others. At the end of the day, nothing else matters....1/10" steel is 1/10" steel.

I sell imported safes that all sell for less than $1,000 which have more steel in them than some of these brand name safes that are priced at $4,000. With a gun safe, you are paying more for a name and cosmetics than you are real protection.

With that said, you have to understand there's a tight rope act that these safe companies are putting on. The safe has to be big enough for guns, but light enough to go into a house. It has to have a fire liner, but it can't be moist because it will damage the guns. It also has to be cheap, because gun owners are notorious for wanting to spend as little as possible on a gun safe.

Many of these gun safes are OK for normal weapons storage. I have a problem with the companies that claim their gun safes are suitable for protecting the family jewels, photographs, and other things that they are not designed to protect.

[PSE]

remember your safe math. its the same formula used for tent buying. it is based on the chinese perfect woman formula.
X divided by 2 - one = Y
therfore if you are buying a 30 gun safe it will actually hold 14 guns.
sound mathmatics i asure you.
6 man tent?
anyone
anyone?
2 people (or 3 midgets).
perfect woman?
46 year old man? 22 year old woman. works everytime.

[FirstFreedom]

LoL, after spending this much on a safe, I won't be able to buy anything but a hi-point

Now that would be funny - a $4,000 safe full of hi-points. :)

a1a, thanks so much for the excellent information - I can't *believe* that a sledgehammer can do that to a Liberty centurion safe in 5 minutes - a real eye-opener there. Mine's a massive POS about like that one I suppose - it's a 'Bear' brand safe. Geez, time to get a better one, I think, definitely. Interesting too about the UL ratings, but hmmm, I could have sworn I've seen some safes with a UL fire rating sticker. But that "Omega" thing on the libertys was suspect to me. UL I've heard of; Omega, notsomuch. I could make safes and also start a company called omega to test my safes - whaddya know, they're the highest rated on the market after my other company's "indedpendent" testing.

PSE, yeah I think JayCo used that formula on my popup camper trailer - supposed to sleep 6 - yeah, OK, sortof - if a couple of them are kids and you don't mind crawling over the kids to get in and out of bed, and have absolutely no room left for ya know, clothes & gear.

a1a, is zykan your company? What's the best value going - what do you recommend we buy from you? :)

[Sport45]

I can't *believe* that a sledgehammer can do that to a Liberty centurion safe in 5 minutes.

I can. But then I used to work for a living. Now what I call working is more like thinking and it pays a heck of a lot better. :)

In my younger days I would have bet I could cut that safe completely in half in less than 5 minutes with an 8# splitting maul. And somebody would have been paying up too. 5 minutes is a very long time for something to be pounded on with a sledge, especially one with a cutting edge. These days I have to leave tricks like that up to my sons.....

[Nortonics]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/libertyburglary2.jpg

I'd sure like to see the opposite sides of that safe - got more pics?

[mohutley]

That damaged safe is easy to believe when you consider that 12 gage is only 1/10 of an inch. These guys http://www.drakesafe.com/ use 1/4" (<3 gage) for everything, and it's not a cumulative thickness, it's all in 1 piece. They use very few seams.
It looks, to me, to be a pretty rationale way to build one without going overboard.

Material thickness:

STEEL
Gage (inches) (mm)
3 .2391 6.073
4 .2242 5.695
5 .2092 5.314
6 .1943 4.935
7 .1793 4.554
8 .1644 4.176
9 .1495 3.797
10 .1345 3.416
11 .1196 3.030
12 .1046 2.657
13 .0897 2.278
14 .0747 1.897
15 .0673 1.709
16 .0598 1.519
17 .0538 1.367
18 .0478 1.214
19 .0418 1.062
20 .0359 0.912

[a1abdj]

a1a, is zykan your company? What's the best value going - what do you recommend we buy from you?

Zykan Safe is my company. I've been in the safe business since I was 16 years old, but have done many other things as well. The safe business doesn't make me rich, but it's something that I really enjoy.

As far as value...it really depends on a persons specific needs. I always tell anybody, that for the price, the AMSEC BF series is one of the best gun safes in its price range. I am very picky about what I sell. When one of my distributors started selling imported gun safes, I had them send me two samples which we promptly tore down in the shop. I will only sell products which I have personally had the chance to look over, so that I know what it is and what it isn't. I'd rather see for myself than read it out of the manufacturer's catalog.

We sell new gun safes starting at around $500, and going up into the $10,000range. Sometimes it's less costly to buy something from me, and sometimes it's less costly to buy elsewhere. I'm the type of guy that will send you to a competitor if I think their product is a better suited for you.

I'm also more than happy to locate professional safe techs (not just retailers that sell safes) in your area in the event you're looking for something used, or need work done.

I have another photo showing the front of that safe above. I'll post it when I find it.

[leadcounsel]

Find the threads relating to safes that I started and commented in in 2005 when I was going through this exact decision.

Bottom line, a lot of the safes on the market are inferior because they don't appear to stand up to the necessary heat generated by a fire nor do they have superior burglary protection.

I purchased a Sturdy Safe and am very pleased.

[1wildbill]

I bought a "Winchester" safe, made by Granite Safe Co. from Sam's for $581. It does have a UL inspection and electronic lock. Supposed to be a 24 long gun safe or 1/2 long guns and 1/2 shelves, that's the way I have it set up. Will it stand up to a sledge hammer for any length of time? Doubt it, but it will keep the average "kick in the door, grab what you can and run" burgular out. Like the ones that hit me before. I have it tucked in a little "nook" in my house with a curtain hiding it from direct view and it could only be hit straight from the front and not much room to swing. I keep other things in it too. Like insurance papers, Army records, my Dad's flag from his funeral, and my meds.
Perfect protection? Nah, but not many people know it's there, so I don't expect a professional safe-cracker to come to my house anyway, or someone carrying a sledge hammer that will spend the time to smash it open. My German Shepard inside and my "Black Barking Dog" outside would probably offer some diversion also. Not perfect fire protection either, but some. It beats hiding guns and other stuff around the house and I sure feel better when my grandkids visit.

[SaltySteve]

Thats kinda where i'm at too. I think i'm gonna go with 1 of the Amsec BF models. A little more then I want to spend, but....if I remember correctly everything that i read then I think it will afford some Doc Protection also. At least better than some of the others.

[rellascout]

Anyone have a Diamond Back GS5922H

"H" Series Features:

1/8" (10 Gauge) Solid Steel Body Construction

1/4" Solid Steel Door Construction

LaGard Group II Combination Lock (Electronic Lock Optional)

(10) 1.5" Solid Steel Locking Bolts Which Locks Door On All 4 Sides

Gear Driven - Live Locking Bolts

Relocker For Additional Security

External Hinges

Universal Interior - Grey Fabric - Adjustable Shelving

2 Layers Of Fireproofing (60 Minutes @ 1250 Degrees)

Safes Come Drilled For Bolting To Floor

Durable Black Finish With Attractive Golden Accents

[guntotin_fool]

another option. I have had boxes built 1/4 or 3/8 hard plate. shielded hinges and inset locks that have stood up for years on jobsites. They are about 800 bucks now if i get a new one from my neighborhood fab shop. I had one that some bozo tried to get open by ramming it between a loading dock and the forks of a bobcat. He finally got it open but had busted about everything in the box with the impacts.

Fire protection comes from 1/2 or 5/8 inch firerock, or treated drywall. easy to have it added or do it yourself. Adding the fire caulk to seal the gaps under heat is easy too. Intumescent caulking is available at ww graingers. not pretty as conversation pieces go but I have five of them that hold thousands of dollars of tools on jobsites everynight.

[SaltySteve]

Hmmmmm!

[leadcounsel]

Here's the site.

www.sturdysafe.com

shows a total burndown and everything in the safe survived because, unlike the mainstream safes (which use fire resistant gympsum board, aka dryall) sturdy uses ceramic/glass fireresistant blankets which work better.

also much better at burglary resistance. thicker steel, better locks, etc.

the safe i bought wasn't glamourous, but weights 900 lbs, 9 gauge steel, 1/4" steel door, commercial dial lock for something in the $1600 range. it was under $2000 delivered.

[SaltySteve]

Yeah, I'll certainly give them a call when I get back State side. There is no price list on their web site. I have to say though that I'm leaning toward the Am sec BF 6040 at this stage. Of course by the time I get back and start actually talking to dealers I'm sure to waffle a little.

[nbk2000]

If you have a house with a basement, or a place where you could break through the flooring (assuming you own the house!), then your best bet would be to get a large enough safe with a decent UL rating for burglary resistance, and setting it on its back into the hole in the floor, securing it in place with bolts (from the inside) to prevent removal.

Properly secured into place, it becomes a very resistant to fire damage, since heat rises up and water go to low spots, as well as very difficult to attack, as only the strongest side (the door) is exposed to a burglars tools.

You'd have to modify it a bit by adding a lift piston, like that found on hatchback cars, to aid in lifting the safe door (unless you like hernias...:p)

If it can't be set below floor level, then you could make a form that the safe would lie in and pour concrete around it, making it much more difficult to attack its vulnerable sides.

It can be done so that there's no permanent modifications made to the property (assuming you rent), and still allowing the safe to be removed if you move.

If you can't do the above, what about putting it in your backyard? Build a shed over it to keep it dry and out of sight. Anyone trying to break into it is going to make a racket that will alert you or the neighbors (assuming they're close enough), as well as making it immune from fire damage since there'd be nothing else in the shed to burn. (It'd be a very small shed, you see. ;))

If you don't secure ALL sides of the safe, then a burglar who knows his trade will attack through the weak sides, rather than trying to go through the door, which is almost always the strongest part.

Get a TL-15 rated safe, as B and C ratings are inadequate, and in a size adequate for your needs. Don't buy any safe that isn't UL rated for burglary resistance, otherwise you're relying on the manufacturers claims. :rolleyes:


A perfect example of this is the demo video by Rhino Safes.

They compare the locking bolts they use against an unidentified competitor, saying how "no thief is going to cut through OUR hardened locking bolts!", using a hand-held hacksaw to demonstrate.

First, no thief would try it in the first place, unless he's a brain-dead zombie, using a hand tool, nor given the sheer number of bolts to cut.

Second, they didn't bother mentioning how the competitors locking bolt is hollow because it has a free-spinning hardened pin in it that makes it resistant to even a cut-off wheel attack, something Rhino's unitary bolt is NOT.


Your budget wouldn't allow you to get a UL rated safe with an 'x6' rating (meaning all six sides are equally protected), so you have to remove 5 sides from the attackers access by burying it.

Since a burglary rated safe is not a fire-resistant, and vise-versa, you'll have to improve its ability to withstand a fire. Some things would be to run a pipe to the safe with a fire sprinkler head, so if there is a fire, there's a constant stream of water spraying on it to keep it cool.

I'm assuming you'd risk some rust rather than detempering?

Anything that can't take water should be bagged or tupperware'd, since the safe would collect water in it during fire suppression, and would be subject to flood damage if you're at risk from such things.

Gun 'safes', such as Liberty/Fort Knox/etc. are all jokes. They'll keep unmotivated punks out, but not a burglar who knows his trade. Give a thief 5 minutes, with a 7" Skil saw with an abrasive cut-off wheel in it, and he'll have a hole big enough to climb through!

I recently cut a 1' x 1' through 1/4" steel plate to install a toilet in a semi-trailer, and it took less than 5 minutes using the above tool setup. Noisy as hell, and sparks like 4th of July, but got the job done.

And this is why you won't see thieves using drills to bypass the hardplate and UL rated combination locks on this kind of 'safe'...because in the time it'd take to set up a drill, you can cut a hole in them. :p

You could possibly even pick up a real bargain by calling around to various locksmiths and safe techs, telling them you'd be interested in buying just the safe door from a safe that has been damaged by a burglar cutting in through one of the sides.

Since the safe is compromised by such damage, the owner can't really sell the thing, so he'd be happy to sell you the (undamaged) door, to recover some expense. At a drastic discount, of course. :)

You might have to wait a while for a thief to break into the kind of safe you need, but patience is well rewarded.

[SaltySteve]

I think your recommendation pretty much sums up what I have taken from this thread.

1) Buy a Gun safe and live with the shortcomings (but Fire protected)
2) Buy a Security safe and pay big bucks (no fire protection)
3) Buy either and use a little ingenuity to overcome any shortcomings.

The decision I need to make now is how for do I want to go with this?
My Firearms are not really that valuable, I just don't want them taken easily and used against myself or anyone else. I think I will be happy with them reasonably protected.

[a1abdj]

Get a TL-15 rated safe, as B and C ratings are inadequate, and in a size adequate for your needs. Don't buy any safe that isn't UL rated for burglary resistance, otherwise you're relying on the manufacturers claims

A "B" or "C" rated safe is often more than adequate. A "B" rated safe uses 1/4" steel plate walls, and a 1/2" steel plate door. That is far more steel than is found in the vast majority of gun safes. A "C" rated safe uses 1/2" steel for the bodies, and a 1" plate door. A TL-15 is an "E" rate and a TL-30 is a "F" rated safe.

Unless you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of a collection, a "B" or "C" rated unit would be a great safe to use. Keep in mind that any of these safes large enough for guns are going to be much heavier than you would expect. A "B" rated safe may weigh 1,500 to 2,000 pounds, a "C" rated safe may weigh 2,000 to 3,000 pounds, and a TL rated safe will exceed 3,000 pounds.

Your budget wouldn't allow you to get a UL rated safe with an 'x6' rating (meaning all six sides are equally protected), so you have to remove 5 sides from the attackers access by burying it.


Again, unless your purpose is to protect your collection from a serious attack, this is a little overkill.

Since a burglary rated safe is not a fire-resistant, and vise-versa, you'll have to improve its ability to withstand a fire.

There are many safes on the market that are both burglary rated and provide fire protection. All burglary rated composite safes offer fire resistance. There are also some steel plate safes which have a composite interior lining giving them fire protection.

Gun 'safes', such as Liberty/Fort Knox/etc. are all jokes. They'll keep unmotivated punks out, but not a burglar who knows his trade. Give a thief 5 minutes, with a 7" Skil saw with an abrasive cut-off wheel in it, and he'll have a hole big enough to climb through!


This is true. Even though some of these safes are built stronger than some of the others, they still don't offer any substantial protection. Many people assume that because it looks like a safe, it is a safe. Most of these gun safes use 1/10" steel (12 gauge). 1/10" is nothing to cut through.

Since the safe is compromised by such damage, the owner can't really sell the thing, so he'd be happy to sell you the (undamaged) door, to recover some expense. At a drastic discount, of course.

We can usually repair even extensive damage to the body of a safe without it affecting its rating. If the damage is so extensive that the safe is no longer viable, generally the door isn't usable either. You can buy a safe door new, if you're only looking for a door.

1) Buy a Gun safe and live with the shortcomings (but Fire protected)
2) Buy a Security safe and pay big bucks (no fire protection)
3) Buy either and use a little ingenuity to overcome any shortcomings.


There are literally hundreds of safe models available which cover just about any intended use you can imagine. The more functions the safe serves, the higher the price. There is some point where everything balances out, and the safe costs will reflect your comfort level with both your purchase and the protection it offers.

Keep in mind, that a safe is one of the cheapest insurance policies available, and it is also your last line of defense. If you skimp on the safe required for your needs, you may not like the aftermath of a fire or burglary. If you buy a $2,000 safe and it gives you 20 years of service, your cost is only $8.33 per month.

[GunFixer]

Have you looked at Zanotti Armor? They make a really good "box that locks". You can take it apart and move everything yourself with the exception of the door. They have a website at http://www.zanottiarmor.com

Might be worth a look.

[nbk2000]

A "B" rated safe uses 1/4" steel plate walls, and a 1/2" steel plate door. That is far more steel than is found in the vast majority of gun safes.


To which I say:


I recently cut a 1' x 1' through 1/4" steel plate to install a toilet in a semi-trailer, and it took less than 5 minutes using the above tool setup. Noisy as hell, and sparks like 4th of July, but got the job done.


Your response to my suggestion of burying the safe so that only the face is exposed is:


Again, unless your purpose is to protect your collection from a serious attack, this is a little overkill.


I say that anyone trying to steal your guns is a serious threat to your life, your freedom, and the lives and freedom of others. If some punk kid, or punk adult, steals your gun, and uses it to kill themselves/kill others/commit a crime, it could be your ass in prison for negligence.

Then comes more laws to restrict gun ownership and freedom of use, like the non-sense about trigger locks.


...it is also your last line of defense. If you skimp on the safe required for your needs, you may not like the aftermath of a fire or burglary.


So what's overkill now?

Since any safe that isn't a UL-rated x6 is more vulnerable on any of its sides/top/bottom than the door, that you need to remove that vulnerability by burying it, or building up a barrier to surround it.

This is all quite elementary, since it's been known since the 1800's that safes recessed into walls or floors are much more resistant to fire and attack by burglars.

Weight is not much of an issue, since this isn't something that needs to be moved around at whim. It's intended to be set in one place and left there for the duration. The more solidly it can be anchored, and the heavier it is, the better. (Within the ability of the structure to support it, of course.)

You're rather disingenious in stating that there are fire-rated burglary safes. This is achieved by placing a smaller burglary safe inside of a larger fire-resistant safe, such as shown below (on your website) - a Diebold Double Door Fire Safe w/ TRTL-30 Lug Door Interior Chest:

http://www.zykansafe.com/images/dieboldafterinteriorempty.jpg (http://www.zykansafe.com/)

Until very recently, only the CHUBB Europlanet series had a UL listing for a unitary body safe with both fire and burglary resistance. 1, 2 (Still might be the only one.)

Fire resistance, such as that provided by fireboard insulation installed into a burglary-resistant safe, is not the same as that provided by a UL listed fire-protection rating. Neither in duration, nor temperature, nor resistance to shock loading.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, unless you've got the $$$ for a CHUBB, or similar unitary fire/burglary-resistant safe, especially for something big enough to fit a gun collection above ground.


We can usually repair even extensive damage to the body of a safe without it affecting its rating.


True enough when the safe isn't an x6, since the body is nothing more than plate steel. 3 Trim the hole neat, weld in a plate/plug, grind flat, repaint, and who'd know the difference?


You can buy a safe door new, if you're only looking for a door.


You're not referring to a vault door, are you? Unless he lucks out and finds an old bank vault door locally, the shipping on a vault door would be astronomical. The 'vault' doors sold by Liberty or Fort Knox, etc. aren't worth the sheet metal they're made from. :p

If you know of any safe manufacturer who sells new UL-listed safe doors as stand-alone components, I'd like to know who they are, because I've never heard that before.

REFERENCES:

1. Rated 1 hour fire endurance to UL class 350(USA)/VDMA S60P (Euro). 1 hour at 1000?C plus a 9 meter free-fall.

KC Safes (http://www.kcsafe.com/Condor.htm) sells the 'Phoenix Condor', which they call a "TL-30 equal. But is it UL tested? Hmmm...no?

2: Page 894 of Locks, Safes, and Security 2nd ed., Marc Weber Tobias (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0398070792/qid=1146035586/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2723745-0020968?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

3:

U.L. Label ?Burglary Classification TL-15:

Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a limited degree of protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Construction Requirements:

U.L. listed Group II, 1 or 1R combination lock.

750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used.

Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1" open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.

Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous 1/4" penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.

One hole 1/4" or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.


Performance Requirements

Successfully resist entry* for a net working time of 15 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechan-ical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms.

* Entry=Safes classed as TL-15 ? opening the door or making a six square inch opening entirely through the door or front face. Safes classed as TL-30 ? opening the door or making a six square inch opening entirely through the door or front face.


Previous discussion on TFL about building a vault room. (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161556)

[a1abdj]

If some punk kid, or punk adult, steals your gun, and uses it to kill themselves/kill others/commit a crime, it could be your ass in prison for negligence.

I'm not a lawyer (although I originally went to school with that idea in mind), but I'm pretty sure that any attempt you make to secure your weapons would be a defense to negligence. Negligence would be leaving your guns out in the open.

If anybody is hell bent on stealing your valuables, they are going to get them no matter what you use to secure them.

Then comes more laws to restrict gun ownership and freedom of use, like the non-sense about trigger locks.


California has already addressed this issue, and their Department of Justice has a list of requirements for gun safes. Most gun safes available today meet those requirements...even the light duty ones.

So what's overkill now?


Buying a $15,000 safe for a $1,500 collection of guns.

Since any safe that isn't a UL-rated x6 is more vulnerable on any of its sides/top/bottom than the door, that you need to remove that vulnerability by burying it, or building up a barrier to surround it.


Although on the face this is true, regardless of a safe's rating, the body is usually weaker than the door....even on a X6 rated safe.

You're rather disingenious in stating that there are fire-rated burglary safes. This is achieved by placing a smaller burglary safe inside of a larger fire-resistant safe, such as shown below (on your website) - a Diebold Double Door Fire Safe w/ TRTL-30 Lug Door Interior Chest:


I appreciate you citing some of my work for others to see.

There are plenty of burglar rated safes which are also fire rated. Any modern day composite safe (safe made out of high density concrete materials instead of solid steel plate) are like this. Feel free to check out some of the examples here:

http://amsecusa.com/composite-safe-am-vault.htm

http://www.meilinksafe.com/gib30x.html

There are also many steel plate safes which have a composite type construction with a fire liner. Graffunder builds premium gun safes which use this type of construction:

http://graffundersafes.com/

Even 100 years ago they built "fireproof" steel safes. A normal "fireproof" safe was thin steel and concrete fill, but they also made safes that had several inches of laminated steel in addition to a concrete fill.

In some cases, this was also achieved by the photo shown above. A burglar rated safe placed inside of a fire rated safe.

Until very recently, only the CHUBB Europlanet series had a UL listing for a unitary body safe with both fire and burglary resistance

There have been others. Some with UL ratings, some with independant ratings, and some with foreign ratings.

Fire resistance, such as that provided by fireboard insulation installed into a burglary-resistant safe, is not the same as that provided by a UL listed fire-protection rating. Neither in duration, nor temperature, nor resistance to shock loading

True, with one exception. UL requires that a safe which passes it's testing must be built at the factory identically to the safe which was tested. In many high security safes, each safe is built with random configurations to help maintain that security. This can prevent a safe which would otherwise pass the testing from being able to display the tag.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, unless you've got the $$$

This is also true. Many gun owners expect the highest rated safe for $500 including delivery. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to safes.

You're not referring to a vault door, are you?

No...just a safe door.

The 'vault' doors sold by Liberty or Fort Knox, etc. aren't worth the sheet metal they're made from.

I agree 128%

If you know of any safe manufacturer who sells new UL-listed safe doors as stand-alone components, I'd like to know who they are, because I've never heard that before.


All of the companies that I've ever dealt with will sell single doors. It's not something that you see listed in the catalogs, as they are usually purchased to replace a door that has been damaged.

KC Safes sells the 'Phoenix Condor', which they call a "TL-30 equal. But is it UL tested? Hmmm...no?


I am not familiar with this safe, and I have not gone to the link to look. However, the UL is a US based testing agency. There are other testing facilities located outside of the US (where many of these safes are imported from).

The ratings issued by some of these groups are equal to that of the UL rating system here. Just because it doesn't have a UL label, does not mean it's not a good safe with a proper rating. Insurance companies will accept many of these foreign ratings just the same as they will accept a UL rating.

All in all, I'm not disagreeing with much of what you say. A good burglar rated safe would be the ideal for anybody wishing to secure their valuables.
But in many cases, the items being protected simply do not justify the expense of these types of safes.

[nbk2000]

I'm not a lawyer (although I originally went to school with that idea in mind), but I'm pretty sure that any attempt you make to secure your weapons would be a defense to negligence. Negligence would be leaving your guns out in the open.


If anybody is hell bent on suing you, they are going to sue you no matter what you use to secure your guns. ;)

Remember back when storing your guns out of reach with the ammo seperate was considered adequate?

Now you need a 'gun safe' and biometric trigger lock, with the ammo stored off-premise in a safe-deposit box requiring a notarized letter from the State Attorney Generals office before you can go shooting at a State approved range with police escort to and from. (For the dense, I'm being sarcastic in the previous sentence.)

California is the source of a lot of this kind of nonsense, and saying that they

Point being, NO amount of 'due diligence' will save you from being charged by a DA up for re-election in a liberal county. The ONLY thing that can prevent you from being an NRA poster boy against gun-control is keeping your guns out of the hands of people who would misuse them.

In response to my statment of "So what's overkill now?":


Buying a $15,000 safe for a $1,500 collection of guns.


Please point out ANYWHERE where I said "$15,000", either directly or by implication, or anything even close to it. You can't because I didn't. In his post, he mentioned $1,200 as his limit, and that's what I've had in mind the entire time.


If anybody is hell bent on stealing your valuables, they are going to get them no matter what you use to secure them.


And with an army of henchmen and a white persian cat, I could break into Fort Knox and destroy all the gold! MWAHAHAHAA!

:rolleyes:

By that logic, why even bother? Hell, if they're THAT determined, they'd just hold a knife to your kids neck (or your neck if you don't have one), and demand you open the safe, something no safe can defend you against.

And if a thief has infinite time, infinite resources, and infinite willpower, than yes, they'll get into your safe.

The whole point of this thread is to provide the maximum protection for a small gun collection for minimum price.

Security is always a trade off between Time, Effort, and Expense. If he had the money, he could just by a huge safe that'd provide everything in one go. But, since he doesn't he'll have to expend time and effort in a DIY project to compensate.

If you expend more effort and time and resources in defense than the attacker can in offense, you'll likely prevail.

How long does the thief have to work on the safe before you come back? A weekend, perhaps? Assuming this is the case, does the thief have that much patience? Or will he pound on the safe with what he brought with him and what he can find around your house, leaving in defeat? If he goes out to get more tools, that's more chances he has to be seen by neighbors who might call the cops. If he can spend days with powertools and torches to work on your safe, then he will get in.

The idea is to make it SO time-consuming, SO risky, SO tiring, SO frustrating, that the thief will leave empty handed.


...regardless of a safe's rating, the body is usually weaker than the door....even on a X6 rated safe.


You're just repeating what I already said about bodies being weaker than doors, and in no way negate the truth of what I said. Perhaps I was too absolute in excluding an x6 from having sides more vulnerable than the door, but so what? That just makes the whole statement about surfaces being more vulnerable than the door even more true.:)

While I also think it likely that the door on an x6 is more resistant than the other five surfaces, the five sides are still, at a MINIMUM, equal to the rating of the whole safe. And the whole safe is rated by it's weakest aspect. So putting a TRTL-60 door on a TL-15 body, results in a TL-15 safe, not a TRTL-60. :)

Thus, if the safe is a TL30x6, Such as the Meilink Gibraltur (http://www.meilinksafe.com/gib30x.html) shown in a link you provided, that means that EVERY side (door/walls/top/bottom), has withstood UL tests for the TL-30 rating. They don't keep testing until they penetrate, they test for the total net working time that the safe manufacturer has submitted their product to be tested at.

The testing only stops when:

A) The safe is breached to the mimimum requirements within the alloted test time

or

B) The alloted time for the desired rating runs out


I appreciate you citing some of my work for others to see.


Claim what's yours, not what isn't. ;)


There are plenty of burglar rated safes which are also fire rated. Any modern day composite safe (safe made out of high density concrete materials instead of solid steel plate) are like this. Feel free to check out some of the examples here...


I checked them out, and found them all lacking.

Firstly, the amsecusa.com link you provided was 404. The top-level domain was 403 Forbidden. Went to Google cache, but the links didn't follow. I'm assuming it's not just me.

However, having used an AMSEC safe on a daily basis at a grocery store I worked at, I know that (for that model) that the body was fire-resistant, but the burglary-resistant component was an inner compartment, not the whole body. Hell, the thing had a hole the big enough to stick your hand through in the side (drop slot), which automatically fails it (the main body) for a UL-burglary rating.

Regarding the Meilink safe you linked, that was another example of manufacturer misdirection.

First of all, only the three smallest sizes are specifically mentioned as having a fire rating. Does this mean the larger sizes are not fire-resistant, or did they just forget to mention it and hope you'll assume they are?

The fire rating is provided by a no-name laboratory, and the ASTM standard on the label, that the safe is supposedly rated for, is for BUILDING WALLS!

"Standard Methods of Fire Tests of Building Construction and Materials" NFPA No. 251, ASTM E 119, UL No. 263

They show a picture of the UL label for 1/2 hour fire resistance, but does that mean that the safe is actually rated for a half hour by UL, or did they just throw that picture in there to give the impression that it was also UL rated for fire resistance?

Nowhere on that page do they say "UL-rated fire resistant", because that'd either be a lie, or a less desirable truth (1/2 versus 1 hour).

By clicking on the fire-rating icon at the lower-left corner of the safe picture, you see that it equates to "Fire resistant unrated insulated safe". Not even meeting the minimum UL class 350 1/2-hour fire label rating. So why do they have the UL fire-rating picture on the safe page? Hmmm...

As for Graffunder products...not a single UL-listed safe on their site.

Oh sure, there's "U.L. approved insulating material" and "U.L. listed group II combination lock", but no UL-listing such as TL-15.

Building something from "approved" components doesn't mean that the whole is a functional integrated unit. I could say my new Uber-Gun is made from NASA tested materials made to NATO STANAG standards. That doesn't mean it'll shoot.

Lots of B and C rated, even an ER rated, but none of those meet minimum definitions for burglary resistance by UL standards.

What about 'factory fire rating'? That's an alarm bell! Tells you that the factory tested their product in-house and found it passed their test. Wow...that's objective testing! Bet they've never failed to pass, what with such high standards. ;)

They say they manufacture safes and vaults with higher ratings, but why should I bother looking after such chicanery? Their FAQ states the reason they don't have any UL-rated products as "Randomization". If I toss a bunch of parts randomly into a box and call it a safe, does that make it a safe?

No.

Maybe the product is good, but how can I tell without testing it to destruction? And, if the product IS randomly assembled, how do I know the next one will be as resistant? I can't.

UL understands the need for security, and they make allowances for design variances in the interest of keeping burglars guessing, so that's no excuse.

[nbk2000]

The reason why I keep emphasizing the UL testing is because it's based on a motive I can trust...GREED.

UL, which is Underwriters Laboratory, is a test lab ran by the insurance companies, to evalute the risk posed to the insurance companies by a product that may cause injury, death, or loss, that would result in a claim against them.

So, in order to mimimize their potential loses, they test products to ensure that they're not (too) hazardous or defective in their intended use.

In the case of safes, they test against the tools and techniques of burglars trying to get after thevaluables within. And they are experts at what they do. So they know that if their guys, with all the tools and schematics they need, can't break into a safe within a certain time, then there is no way a thief will either. And that is what they base their insurance rate on.

Manufacturers, in order to sell their products to the market, will get a UL listing if they can, because that means that they can sell to large corporations and companies who won't buy a non-UL rated safe because their insurance company either won't insure them against a loss if it's not UL-rated, or charge higher premiums to cover non-tested safes against possible losses.

UL provides a standard with which safes by different manufacturers can be judged by. Otherwise you're left trying to figure it out yourself and getting techno-babble from them saying that their product is better because it passed their tests.

The standards which foreign countries rate their safes by would have to be considered by UL as equivalent to their tests before I'd accept it as valid. Again, it's a matter of having reliable and repeatable standards for comparison.

If the insurance company who'd be covering your loss accepts a foreign rating as acceptable, then that's their business.

The 'Salamander' safes of the 1800's are one of the prime examples of why standardized testing was developed.

'Salamanders' were the first fire-resistant safes. They were so-called because of the folk belief that salamaders were impervious to fire.

Manufacturers would demonstrate their products by building big bonfires in public squares with their safes in the middle. After the fire dies down, they show the papers unharmed.

All well and good, except for the trickery that was often involved. Such tricks as having the papers at the bottom of the safe, which was sitting on the ground (not in the fire), where it was least heated. People often found that papers in such safes, in a typical house fire, would be charred to ash if it was at the top of the safe because of the rising heat. This was also caused by the insulation settling over time, away from the top of the safe.

Oh, and the lack of drop.

Burning houses fell on top of safes, or safes fell through burning floors, either one causing the safe to bust open, with the attendant destruction of the contents. This is the orgin of the UL drop-test for fire safes.

And more than a few times, the spectators were killed when the 'Salamander' exploded from the pressure build-up caused by the steam cooking out of the alum-sawdust insulation.


Many gun owners expect the highest rated safe for $500 including delivery. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to safes.


A statement I totally agree with. I blame a consumerist society for people expecting quality without cost. You ALWAYS pay. If you're cheap and chintzy, you will pay for it later.

I'll see if I could (though I won't) buy a replacement door from a few major manufacturers as, like I said, I've never heard of that. It'd be nice, though I wonder if they'd only sell to locksmiths, as 'criminals' might buy doors to practice on.

[SaltySteve]

Took a while to read all that. 1 small tip, about 2/3rds way through it gets a little dry. If you ever try to sell this as a Movie of the Week you will have to spice it up a little. Just kidding.:D Yes I'm still reading all this and learning a lot more than I ever expected. Oh, by the way, A few posts into it I upped my budget to $2400. This budget is hypothetical. If I can upgrade significantly for a few hundred more I have no problem in doing so.

[nbk2000]

It'd be helpful if you gave me an idea of the type of structure you'd be installing a safe into. Is it a home or apartment? Do you own, lease, rent?

Basement? Type of flooring (wood beams or concrete slab), etc.

[SaltySteve]

This is a typical wood frame house built on a slab. I will be relocating early next year so I probably will not do anything elaborate with the install at this location. The next location will be a permanent move for me (I hope)(plan A). Oh yeah, I own this house and the next one. Also, no basements here. A basement here would be called an indoor pool.

[SeanB]

Hi Steve

I just went through all the same problems and thoughts as yourself.
I finally settled on an Australian made safe made by lokaway.net
Have a look at the way the door locks. Something to think about
Goodluck
Sean

[a1abdj]

Again, I don't disagree with much of what you say.

UL listed burglar rated safes are great if you have the money to spend on them. In this case, the original posters budget is not going to allow him to purchase a new TL rated safe, so he's looking for the best safe within this budget.

Unless you're a locksmith, contacting any manufacturer about a door will not do you much good. Just like the safes themselves, they usually are sold through dealers, and not directly to end consumers. If you are in the market for just a door, I'd be more than happy to provide you with pricing.

In the $2000 range, I will stand by my statement that the AMSEC BF series is one of the best safes available in that price range.

Some people (insurance companies included) insist on a UL label. I am always happy to sell a UL rated safe to those people. Having been in the safe business for a few years, I know that there are many unrated safes which would exceed the level of protection offered by a similar UL rated safe.

Most of my concern with gun safes it the amount of misinformation provided by many of the manufacturers.

[SaltySteve]

Thanks a1a, I value your insight on this topic and will probably go with your recommendation. I get off this Vessel next week and look forward to making the purchase and getting it in the house. The house I buy later this year will have a garage and then I will look into a used safe to install there. That should open up more options as I probably will not concern myself with Fire protection on that one (I can work around that issue). That should broaden the possibilities for a real Safe? However I definitely will buy a gun safe next week for the house. I have gone too long without any way to really secure my firearms and consider myself lucky up to this point that I haven't been taken to the cleaners.

[nbk2000]

So what are you getting?

[leadcounsel]

I'd just like to repeat that you should seriously consider a sturdy safe from www.sturdysafe.com

I went through your same situation last year and was on a less than $2000 budget. After eliminating all of the "junk" safes on the market, I bought a Sturdy Safe and am very please. It's truly a great value and a great peace of mind to have such good burglary and fire resistant protection.

Good luck w/ your decision.

[SaltySteve]

At this point and with the info I have, it would be the Amsec BF. I sent Sturdy an email after you mentioned them in your post. I was asking for prices and have not heard back. But let me say this, I have limited comms out here. When I return Stateside next week I will be able to actually pick up a phone and call these different Dealers before I make that final decision. This conversation has been an EYE OPENER!

[H&K Fan]

Tagged so I can find this one later.

[don't shoot it's me]

I found what should be an acceptable safe for my needs...it is the Sentry G5251...I found it at Lowes for 397.00 It looks to be the same safe that is sold at costco.com under model number GQ5453 (costco typically has different model numbers than the manufacturer)...anyway, is this the same safe?

Lowes... http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...251&lpage=none

As for the 8.2 vs 12.7...Lowes list the interior space while costco lists the entire size...both are 21w x 17 3/4D x 59H

costco... http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...opnav=&browse=

they look the same to me but there is almost a 200 dollar difference...I know more than a few members here have one or the other so any imput is appreciated....TIA

[Mannlicher]

I bought a Browning Bronze series yesterday at Sports Authority. It was the floor model, and has a few dings. The lock is electronic. Mechanically its seems perfect. I put it in the old F-100 and hauled it home. Next week, I have an appointment for my locksmith to stop by and bolt it to the floor slab and wall. Nice safe. $999 + tax.

[SaltySteve]

I ran across a floor model here with one chip on the front. It's an american security BF 60x30x26 in the gloss finish. It also has an electronic lock which I do not like. But he will sell it for $1550.00. Sounds like a good deal but I will have to figure out how much a mechanical lock will cost me installed. It may be just as easy to buy one without flaws and with Mechanical lock allready installed.

[san_chang4837]

I went ahead and bought a gunvault multi deluxe from Wal-mart. My family had to return a sentry safe, so I had $100 credit to burn.

I realize that they may not be the best, but are they ok? I need it to store one handgun. I also thought that these were concealable.

[SaltySteve]

I finally pulled the trigger and bought the AMSEC BF 6030. I chose the Granite textured finish and Mechanical Lock. I ordered it through a1abdj and could not be happier with it. MAN!!!!! what a job getting it inside and of course the room I needed it in was in the back of the house no fewer than 6- 90 deg turns to get there. AMSEC shipped the safe with a heavy duty undersized pallet but the shipper placed the Safe with its little pallet ontop of a reg sized pallet.(Quick tip, have them remove their reg pallet before leaving). I could rent nothing to lift high enough and move safe to the house. Long story short, 2.5 hours to move safe 5ft to front door (danged double Pallets) and 10 mins to slide it into position using a couple of towels. Thanks a1abdj for your help. I'm a satisified customer.

[FLJim]

Glad it worked out for you, SaltySteve :).

I'm currently trying to figure out what to do. It may be that I can't get a safe into my basement. We'll see. I've got a brochure and price list on the way from Sturdy Safe. Other than that, I'm considering an AMSEC BF-series. In either event: I'll probably have to hire professional riggers to get it into the basement--the cost of that alone may kill the deal.

There's no place for it up-stairs. It's too hot & humid here in the summer-time, and too darn cold in the winter-time, to put it in the garage.

I may have to settle for a Zanotti modular safe.

I'd sure like to be able to leave the house, on vacation or whatever, and feel more comfortable about it.

[leadcounsel]

My advice, unless you are superman don't attempt getting a safe up or down a flight of stairs.

Mine weighs 900 pounds and could easily crush a person if it fell down some stairs. It took 5 strong men to move it into the ground floor of my home.

[FLJim]

Oh, not a chance I'd try to move a gun "safe" myself! In another forum, a1abdj already told me he wouldn't be able to do it with his equipment in my situation. That's why I mentioned I'd probably have to hire riggers if I want to continue to pursue this course.

I plan to explore all my options before I concede defeat.

[Eghad]

I just went to academy and purchased a Sentry safe for $354.00 including tax. This was to secure mostly military surplus weapons and some .22 cal rifles. It was a 14 gun safe. it wieghs 257 lbs empty and is solidly made with the hinges on the inside. Unless Joe crackhead/burglar has a torch they aint going to get in. If its a single intruder I would be very amused to watch them take the bolted down safes. The principle is usually that most of the thieves that break in are looking for a quick score they can carry away easily.

so for most folks you dont have to spend that much on a safe.

[Eghad]

Oh, not a chance I'd try to move a gun "safe" myself! In another forum, a1abdj already told me he wouldn't be able to do it with his equipment in my situation. That's why I mentioned I'd probably have to hire riggers if I want to continue to pursue this course.

I plan to explore all my options before I concede defeat.

golf balls :D ftw once you get it up or down the stairs.

[LordJohnWarfen]

Hi all,

Anyone know a nice sigle pistol safe? Looking for something for the downstairs, have two kids.

Thanks in advance.

[andywhite]

I notice you carry the Diamond Back safes. Tell me about them.

[a1abdj]

If there's anything specific you would like to know, let me know.

These safes are a private label sold through one of my commercial safe distributors. He had these safes built to his specs, and imports them himself. They are supposed to be sold only to professional safe companies, but I've seen a few pop up at other retailers from time to time.

They are no frills safes. He doesn't have fancy paint or interiors, but uses the money he saves on better construction. All of the safes have 10 gauge bodies, and the H series have 1/4" doors. They have a gear driven boltwork that locks them on 3 or 4 sides, external hinges, convertible interiors, and 30 to 60 minute fire ratings.

For the money, they're a good safe. I wouldn't sell them if they weren't.

[saltydog452]

If I may ask, what were the in-bound freight, local delivery, and set-up expenses?

Thanks,

salty

[skeeter1]

Buying a safe is indeed preplexing. So many choices, so many considerations. I went with a Stack-On, not because I think it's all that great (because I don't), but logistically it was the biggest one I could carry up into the upstairs of my house. I really didn't want one out in the garage, which was my only real alternative. It was either that or move into a single-story house, and that's not in the budget right now.

$1200 gives you lots of options, and if you can find one, once in a while a second-hand Diebold industrial safe comes up, and they're tanks. They weigh a ton (literally) and no need to worry about bolting them to anything.

Take your time and figure out what the best solution is for you. Much to think about. Good luck!

[.45&TKD]

a safe for my rifles and whatnot. I only have afew

If you only have a few guns, you could buy more guns first, and then buy a big safe later.

[odsixer]

I also went with the 14 gun sentry like eghad... I'd love a 1000lb safe but that will have to wait for the next house.

[wilkerr1]

Awesome Thread. I don't have a safe yet, but I have learned a lot. Thank you all knowling Safe Gods.

[piste]

Always remember...security is best done in layers....a safe should only be one component of an overall security plan. In fact....if someone should somehow be incredibly good or lucky enough just to get standing in front of my safe...they get maybe 10 to 15 minutes max time to work.

As for flood protection...well I don't have much to offer for suggestions there...other than move and/or elevate the safe as much as you can. Depending on the situation a few inches of elevation could make a big difference.

As for fire protection... just having any safe that has some fire protection designed into it gets you a big step ahead of keeping them on the living room floor. Do a little research...buy the best you can afford based on that research and move on to living your life. I don't believe a lot of the hooey in this thread...if there was such a huge gap between what a safe is advertised to do and what it can actually do....as some here have claimed...our commercial system,commercial law, and the marketplace would flush that out at some point. I also don't take everything an advertiser takes at face value. The truth is usually some where in between.

As for rust proofing....first point is that every time you open your safe equilibrium is established between the air in the safe and the ambient air. So don't open it on humid days...just kidding. The fire protecting materials and other components are not infinite moisture sources that continuously disperse moisture into the internal air of a closed safe. Most of the moisture in the materials is encapsulated and does not easily evaporate...so that when a fire happens the moisture is released thus providing protection. If it were not encapsulated the moisture would evaporate fairly quickly and offer no threat to rusting. So again this is not a point to anguish over. Like security, rust prevention is best done as a multilayered program. Use some sort of dessicant in the safe...or other moisture reducing method...or two...and check and clean your firearms periodically..and be done with it and move on with life.

There's my two cents....FWIW.

[terrydu]

We are Shanghai Aotao Valve Co.,Ltd. from China. Our chief products are electronic safes,gun safes,fireproof safes, safe handles,wall safes, mailboxes,drop boxes etc.These safes can be domestic use and office use.Our company has been engaged in producing the electronic safes ,gun safes and fireproof safes for 8 years. We've developed our quality, technology and throughout during these years. Our safes are durable and fireproof with very competitive prices and excellent quality. The safes are definitely in perfect quality , popular design and excellent parts installed which have been recognized in US market.Now we are cooperating with many US customers ,They satisfy our products very much and maintain long term and good cooperation.
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Contact Info

Contact person: Terry Du

Shanghai AoTao Valve CO.,LTD
Room 18E. Building 6, No.1369
Dongfang Road,Shanghai, China.
Tel:+86-21-68641239 50892789
Fax:+86-21-23019947
Email:henry@aotaosafe.com
Http://www.aotaosafe.com