12 ga. ap. rounds?

[SpookBoy]

I've found some 12.ga. Armor Piercing ammo for sale at www.atlasammo.com. My question is how is this legal to own when the new fn five-7 Ap ammo is not for sale(illegal)?Also I've seen .50 cal.& 30-06 AP. ammo for sale, whats the deal?I'm assuming that it is not for sale in pistol cal.'s?
Any help is appreciated:cool:

[Death from Afar]

What exactky do you want AP rounds for???!?!?!;)

[GlocksRfun]

AP rounds ar not legal in handgun calibers. Rifles and shotguns are ok. I think that's the fed standpoint. Local law may prohibit it all. You assumed correctly.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Check out the new issue of "Small Arms Review" for article on 12ga high-explosive AP rounds. They are fin-stabilized and look like little high-tech mortar rounds. Wicked impressive.

[Doggieman]

I thought all armor piercing ammo ammo was federally regulated. Could be some loopholes maybe depending on the material the round is made out of, or some other (don't have the statute here in front of me).

[The Body Bagger]

Armor piercing shot gun slugs huh? Why not a standard .270 or .308?

[silicon wolverine]

You can own AP ammo here in any caliber but it is illegal to sell it in handgun or rifle calibers. shotguns-pretty much anyhting goes.

SW

[Syntax360]

Anyone ever see a definitive test that shows that those thing will, in fact, punch a vest? I'd be REAL sceptical of anything on those exotic shotgun shell websites.

[dfaugh]

But my understanding is that the (federal) prohibition applies to handgun rounds. As mentioned there may be state or local laws in addition to this.

[CypherNinja]

Hubel's (and Rob's) 12ga FH will put a 324g Federal Sabot slug out near 4000fps. Wonder what it would do to a plate if that was a steel dart instead. :D

[Doggieman]

18 U.S.C. sec 922:

(a) It shall be unlawful
[...]
(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General;

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Attorney General

(I'm not seeing anything that exempts shotguns)

WHOOPS here it is:

18 U.S.C sec 921(a)(17):

(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


Yup you're right handguns only under fed law. :D

[Ben Swenson]

Yup you're right handguns only under fed law.
Of course, due to the advent of handguns that use some of the smaller rifle cartridges, "armor piercing" .223, 7,62x39 and so forth are also regulated just like "armor piercing" 9mm and .45ACP.

[Minator]

Anyone ever see a definitive test that shows that those thing will, in fact, punch a vest? I'd be REAL sceptical of anything on those exotic shotgun shell websites.

Standard slugs can punch through 5 inch bullet resistant glass when no rifle our pistol can. Also I dont rember what its called flachete or something along those lines which is just a bundle of spikes created in the vietnam era for snipers in trees and body armor penetrate most vests rather easily same way as a knife punching though a vest only with alot more force and can break up the ceramic plates.

Any Rifle round in FMJ even with a regular lead core can defeat a vest.

and check out this site I dont rember the adress to the site with the flachetes but Ive seen them in action. www.theboxotruth.com

[Syntax360]

From FireArmsTactical.com:

"Some shotgun cartridges are loaded with flechettes. These are small, steel, pointed dart-like projectiles with aft stabilization fins, and are commonly referred to as "nails with tails." The low cross sectional area of a single flechette, combined with the small amount of flechettes that can be loaded into a shotshell, makes them an inferior choice for home defense when compared to buckshot.

Also, according to Second Chance Body Armor Company, flechettes are not effective against soft body armor, if this is a particular mission requirement for your ammunition. Steel shot also is ineffective against soft body armor."

If they are poor penetrators in flesh, I can't believe they will do an adequate job on body armor. Sounds like Vietnam-era gun folklore...

[mdao]

Quadrangle buck is armor piercing, but has a limited range due to shape and light weight.

[mswestfall]

I'm with the why A/P croud???

[rhinov]

The answer to why A/P is because you or I or who ever would want something Armor Piercing. I am a law abinding American citizen who should (whether or not I do) have the right to own,sale,purchase,or use A/P ammo just because I want to. As long as I dont harm someone else or ther property.

[Rangefinder]

I'm with you on the "just because" reply... But shotgun AP rounds? A 12 Guage slug has a pretty impressive penetration already. :D Are we hoping to shoot through manhole covers or something? LOL Must be some big rats hiding in those sewers...

[Doggieman]

seems like a good idea to have some armor piercing shotgun rounds JUST IN CASE. Mbbaye I'll pick ome of those up.

[Syntax360]

"Just because" is about the only argument I can come up with as well. I certainly wouldn't complain if I had some AP ammo, but it's not going to keep me up at night.

Slugs certainly won't make it through pretty much any vest, but I SURE wouldn't want to be on the other side. TheBoxOTruth has some real good pictures of what a slug can do even if the vest stops it.

[SpookBoy]

In answer to your questions.IT is just because I can .....If I am not damaging any bodys person,or property(or breaking law/s) Why does it matter? Why do you chose to own a 50 cal.when it will punch through an Armored car or tank?Because it is your american right to chose, thats why!:D
Has any one ever tried these things?or
the pit-bull shells advertised there ?

[cpileri]

Why not take a 2 ounce load data (2 oz= approx 880gr) and make a sabot that will hold a 50bmg AP projectile (approx 667 gr).
It wont be over pressure, though it will be slower than a 50bmg loading.
A non-discarding sabot and rifled bore might stabilize it enough to keep it point first and there you have it: an AP 12ga round.

Sound workable?
C-

[oldbillthundercheif]

So the law banning depleted-uranium projectiles does not apply to shotguns? If this is the case, I may have to break out the lathe and build up some armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) rounds! You never know when you may need that pyrophoric zing you can only get from DU.

[Ruger4570]

I am a true gun nut, I probably have more guns than most,, but what the hell would a law abiding sportsman want or need an AP round for,, just because,, Just because is why there are so many people out there that want to take our guns away, whether they are right or wrong,, The "just because" and the desire to have slugs or bullets that have absolutly NO sporting purpose gives creedance to their arguments. I can remember years ago when AP rounds were legal,, we would buy them CHEAP in 30-06 and shoot them at a huge boulder near the gun shop and watch chunks of rock and dust fly. Yes it was a hoot, but back then we didn't have the political turmoil we have now. The "just bacause" mentality simply goes against what some people want,,( the majority) we shooters will have to find a middle ground we can all live with,, or otherwise, we will loose. The anti's outnumber us. A lot of people fear the "Rambo" mentality of many.. well I don't blame them. I have nothing against being prepared for a problem, but some of the gear I have read about make even me want to see them outlawed. And I hate gun registration more than most and have been to many Town, County and State meetings regarding guns. You folks that want to have shells and guns with no real sporting purpose and shotguns that are cool, just give these antis more ammunition to take them all away from us. Beleive me,, they will win in the end. Look at what has happened in our schools,, go give your kid a swat on the butt in public,, see what happens. C'mon,, are some of you living in a vacumn? Go ahead and flame me with your lame excuses,, I am 65 and will be dead before it happens,, but a lot of you will live to see the day when you cannot have guns. The right is being attacked every day,, oh,, and how many of you are NRA members? You talk the talk,, but you are too cheap to assist the one or two orginazitions that fight to protect your rights... ok Rant over..

[oldbillthundercheif]

AP projectiles could be useful if you ever needed to disable a large vehicle. You can also use them to make modern art out of scrap steel oer' yonder hillside.
As long as you are in full compliance with the law and can do it safely, go ahead and light off some AP. It's fun.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Ruger's right about the NRA, though. How many of you have written your elected officials about gun policy? We must stay active in the gun debate. Use the ILA website for easy e-mails to your reps. Mine even write me back sometimes.

[epr105]

I dont think that we should have any restrictions on what we buy or own. Ruger4570 has a point the antis are out to get the stuff we want to own and they use it against us. We are the law abiding ones who follow the rules. We must be active in the NRA and let our political leaders know what we want, to keep our rights.
Be active in expressing the views to keep our rights.
How many people I know that own guns and don't belong to the NRA. I never understand why????:confused:
Just my two cents!
Ed
EPR105

[tomh1426]

Only reson I buy AP rounds is because they are cheap!!
Its easier to find 7.62x54 steel core than soft point.
Besides that I dont care if Its AP or not unless Im hunting.

[Mannlicher]

I wonder why everyone assumes Spook wants AP to penetrate vests? I would think AP rounds would be a great thing to have if you needed to penetrate a car body, or a barrier. I understand that slugs don't always penetrate a car body, or certain barriers.

[Ruger4570]

I guess I keep missing the point,,,, why would NEED to penetrate a car body or a barrier. It would seem to me if a BG is fleeing, the threat in which you can shoot is removed and it would be better to get the license # and let the "empowered" law enforcement people handle it. I sure wouldn't want to be in Court trying to explain why I was shooting someone fleeing in a car and NOT IN my house. I really doubt many States allow you to shoot people in the back or in the attempt to flee unless you are a LEO, and even then there are problems. I shot a ton of AP rounds in my life and I had a ball with them, but for civilian use they are useless for any purpose. Take some time and look up what the law allows you to do in YOUR State, you may be surprised at the pile of crap you will get into using anything but commonly available ammunitions or shooting at a BG trying to get away from his botched crime.Not to mention the Civil suit brought on you by his greiving family.

[Csspecs]

What if he is shooting at you from behind a car?

Also I don't see a reason why people should have anything that goes boom, we should let the police do it for us. I also feel that people should not be allowed to own tools, do you have any idea how many people get them selfs in legal trouble by doing "home improvement" projects that they should leave to professionals.

Also I think that no one should have cars, we should let professionals drive buses for us instead. Also no one should eat red meat... or any meat as it can lead to health problems. No one should smoke or drink as both can harm others, and if you do drink you should never drive a car EVER. When you go to buy booze they should take away your license.

OR maybe we can let people do what they want unless they are really hurting anyone but themselves.

For all the AP rounds that people buy every year there are few if NO crimes that they are used in.

Edit: If you shot someone because they were trying to hurt of kill you than I doubt that your choice in bullets is really going to change anything. By shooting him you were trying to kill him, if one round works better than another that is not really a problem.

[Ruger4570]

Gee, let me think,, when was the last time I read about a BG shooting at property owner from behind a car,,,hmmmmm I guess I just don't remember ever hearing of it, I know the Police have,, I just haven't heard of the average guy defending his home have to take it out from inside the house into the street in an all out running battle...
You do make some good points,, or at least somewhat reasonable. I don't have a problem with tools at this point as not many are used in a crime.. well maybe some idiot holding up a bank with his Black and Decker cordless drill. An as far as Home Improvements, yes, some people get into trouble with the law because they don't get the required permit or don't follow the codes that are required for everybody's safety.
Considering all the Road Rage cases and the crap way some drive, it might be good to have better public transportation systems for people,, something like Europe and NYC where many don't drive or find it more practical to use public transportation. Again, it would probably be better for many of us to not have the nutz on the street. You are 100% right on smoking, no one should,, not even me as I would in fact be endangering others. As far as drinking, well there are already laws on the books in every State about drinking and driving so I guess even the government agrees with you. So I guess you made a good point,, people should not be allowed to do these things,because it could be harmful to someone other than themselves.. good point you made there.
I do think you missed the point I was trying to make, but I am not surprised you didn't. I didn't explain it to your level so to speak. But for my thoughts, you do sound like the kind of person that would chase a BG out of your house and shoot him down just because he broke in and was trying actually to flee from confrontation with you. Well please feel free to do so. It will get rid of one more bad guy and you will probably only have to face a minimum of a manslaughter charge. Even the Police are required to "break off" when a situation is either in hand and controlable or there is a risk to others.. IE people down the street, your neighbors and someone driving up the street, There will always be the "macho Rambo" type personalities in this world. Unfortunatly, they never seem to volunteer to go to places like Iraq or really get in the middle of some bad stuff.

[Syntax360]

The primary thing driving all of our carry habits, gun collections, and general hobby here is that you never know. Quite a few people keep a rifle in the trunk of their car. Or perhaps they do want AP pistol ammunition for its barrier penetration qualities. It is possible that someone could find themselves and their car in the middle of a gunfight. Perhaps one could find themselves all-of-a-sudden caught in a North Hollywood Shootout scenario. You never know. It sure would be nice to have the choice if the need were to ever arise.

Or perhaps someone mistakes your house for someone elses and is absolutely hellbent on shooting the house up. Perhaps they park their car outside an open up with an assault rifle of their own. Bet you would want that extra penetration then.

Or perhaps you find yourself in a situation some day when someone is trying to run you down with their automobile. Better barrier penetration sure would come in handy for reaching through that laminate windshield.

We could do this all day...
There are any number of scenarios that very well COULD happen to you someday where AP ammo would come in handy.

You will almost certainly never NEED any of the weapons you own, much less need to carry one, but that sure didn't stop you from acquiring the weapon/ccw license. The whole idea is to cover all bases in case that terrible day does come...

[Musketeer]

Two Points:

1. Why AP? Think Tyler Texas and Red Lake High School. BOth occurred just last year and both involved deranged individuals on a killing spree while wearing body armour. Mark Wilson from Tyler Texas put rounds on target with the criminal but died because the criminal was wearing a vest. Criminals wear vests too, that is why I want AP.

Given that I still would rather opt for a SKS or Mini 30 trunk gun than a 12 gauge using some sort of exotic ammo from the place linked to.

2. You would have to be a complete nut... to use a box of ammo that is called TERMINATOR, PIT BULL or SHREDDER with the advertising and descriptions given by this company. You WILL be put under the microscope after a shooting. I can easily defend my 00 buck or even slugs (plenty of PDs use them), my handgun's JHPs are the same story as the shotgun rounds. Even the ammo for an SKS is widely available in plain boxes. This stuff from Atlas though is for guys with a teenie weenie complex and will only make you look more like a nut job infront of a DA and possibly a jury.

[Ruger4570]

Musketeer: That was the point of my first post,, the second was more tongue in cheek kidding. I can 'Dream" up all kinds of sceneros that "could" happen,, what is the likelyhood of actually happening. Being prepared is fine and well advised. As you said and I tried to get across to those that have no idea that this is not the wild West,, you will have a DA and Family suing you for wrongful death or something. You will be a lot less likely to have a problem using ammo that is considered sporting than Ramboesque. I don't care what anyone uses, depleted uranium for all I care. Just open you eyes as to how the Law really works in these cases and stop watching telivision for your law info. It is TV where lead bullets make sparks on everythin they hit, not the real world.

[wacki]

Check out the new issue of "Small Arms Review" for article on 12ga high-explosive AP rounds. They are fin-stabilized and look like little high-tech mortar rounds. Wicked impressive.

Anyone have pics of these?

[UniversalFrost]

Ijust bought a 500 round case of AP rounds for my M4A3 becasue I am sure that they will eventually get on the banned list (same reason I just bought andother m4a3 and have some sks's on order. With the way the politicians are going these days (republican and democrat alike) You never know what they will come up with next to infringe on out rights. Also the "green tip" rounds are great and cheap for shooting at paririe dogs and yote's . Shot into a mound once after the sucker ducked for cover and he kinda flew out of the hole ( or at least the top half) . With 223 could only pull that off with AP rounds (shoot through the mounds with 7mm rem mag balistic tips and .338 win mag but it's expensive [and fun] )

Also I read one of the previous posts about FMJ rounds going through body armor and that is not 100% true. See the body armor post of mine. I am walking proof that a 7.62X39 FMJ round fired from approx. 75 yards away will not penetrate a level III vest all the time (guys at blackarmor ROCK). If it were 100% of the time I would be pushing up daisies at arlington natl' cemetary right now.

[SharpShooter06]

Yeah, http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741

go down a little bit and you will see the picture.. theres also a link to a .pdf file that gives more info on it.

[carebear]

Actually, the "why do you want/need it" question is the puerile one.

Any criminal use of a firearm can be committed with any type of ammo. The choice of ammo, and the choice of weapon are immaterial. Explain to me how AP ammo gets anyone more dead?

Murder is murder, armed robbery is armed robbery etc.

To think that "they" will somehow be mollified by a voluntary restriction of just one (or even multiple) type of specialty ammo is naive at best. It's a "do something, feel good" measure that will have no real effect on either the evil in our society or the efforts by the vocal and active on the other side to seek "just one more" restriction. We'd do better confronting those with misapprehensions about our sport/hobby/philosophy/religion with truth rather than trying to bargain some sort of slippery slope, temporary cease fire.

Selling out any part of the shooting world is cowardly, self-defeating, ultimately useless and, thus, stupid.

[oldbillthundercheif]

My weird little section of the US is currently a thirld-world stinking pile of wreckage. If things go completely ape next hurricane season I will not be denied serious firepower. If you really have to think hard to come up with a situation where AP might be useful, you must live in some other part of this fine country.

[erh]

- No. 4 Buck has always seemed quite proficient, & more than sufficient..!

Eric Howland, Savannah, GA.

[Csspecs]

No I would never shoot someone running across my yard. Heck I don't even have shells for my guns let alone special ones.

I ma just saying that it is a right to have do the stuff I mentioned. And it is also a right to bear arms (that includes bullets), so instead of splitting hairs on what is and is not a sporting bullet lets put money into programs to fix the massive social problems that cause people to be ticked off to begin with? Oh wait that takes time, and does not get politicians as much camera time. CAN'T DO THAT!

[VUPDblue]

check out this thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211127

The answer to 'why' is; 'because it is fun...'

[Heist]

You folks that want to have shells and guns with no real sporting purpose and shotguns that are cool

Darn straight. Why do you think I'm busting my tuckus sixteen hours a day to build a business? So that I can buy guns that are cool. I understand where you're coming from- I lived in NY for a good half of my life not too far from you. I understand your perspective and attitude, and don't let anyone jump on you saying things like "move to a free state" or insult you for your taste in guns or your views.

There's things to not push the issue on just because it's a negative PR win, and there's some things I'm not inclined to roll over on 'just because it looks bad'.

See, if I were a trap shotgunner, it probably wouldn't be out of line for me to ignore any restrictions on anyone but my own favored weapons. Maybe I might even have disdain for them. No honest man needs a magazine over ten rounds and such. The problem is, we can all stand together, or hang seperately.

Where's that graphic someone made of the snake and the different shooting disciplines cut apart?

As for 12 gauge slugs, a vest might stop one, but the front of the armor will be touching the wearer's spine. Backface deformation!

[VUPDblue]

Thank you, Heist, well put indeed.

[gunslinger555]

sporting puposes isnt the only reson why ppl. own firearms

[dbcpyrot]

DBC Pyrotechnics, LLC carries both 12ga AP rounds and 12ga Flechette rounds. Both are pretty nasty if you think about the damage they cause. Flechette rounds will tear through a person like a hot knife through butter and cause serious damage. The AP rounds are just as bad and will go through plate steel with ease. Nasty **** but nice to have on hand JUST IN CASE when SHTF.

[Huey Long]

I've found some 12.ga. Armor Piercing ammo for sale at www.atlasammo.com. My question is how is this legal to own when the new fn five-7 Ap ammo is not for sale(illegal)?Also I've seen .50 cal.& 30-06 AP. ammo for sale, whats the deal?I'm assuming that it is not for sale in pistol cal.'s?
Any help is appreciated

AP shotgun rounds are perfectly legal. However, I think I remember reading somewhere that the company that makes them was harassed out of business by the ATF. It seems that they take a dim view of people manufacturing and selling this stuff, even though it's technically legal.

[Doggieman]

Necroposting FTW :D

Anybody ever tried (and taken pictures) of these exotic rounds?

[4thPointofContact]

I'll join in the necro-posting fun, because it needs to be said.........


"...DBC Pyrotechnics, LLC carries both 12ga AP rounds and 12ga Flechette rounds. Both are pretty nasty if you think about the damage they cause. Flechette rounds will tear through a person like a hot knife through butter and cause serious damage.

Do not believe everything you hear from ad-copy. Flechettes are little more than 1.25 inch long ice-picks. They have very little weight and hence very little momentum. They do not start out at a high muzzle velocity and they do not retain either velocity nor momentum once striking a target.

Their patterning ability is abysmal. In the 10 rounds we examined for our experiment there were about 20 flechettes per shell, 10 facing forward and 10 with the fins forward. At 15 yards the pattern was a 6-foot diameter circle. Think about this folks... 20 darts in a 6-foot diameter area is 4,071 square inches. That's ONE dart per every TWO HUNDRED SQUARE INCHES.

Now... should you, by some miracle actually strike the intended target 15 yards away, how much damage will you do?

Answer: At 15 yards one dart stuck into plywood sufficiently hard that gravity alone would not pull it free, I had to use my fingers. It penetrated a little more than 1/16 inch. No flechettes penetrated the vest. There were a number of sideways strikes in evidence on the paper backing and on the plywood.
Moving to 7 yards the test was repeated. The patterns could not be determined as the backing paper was not replaced but let's assume that the pattern was cut in half, that's still One dart per every one hundred square inches or about one dart per square foot.
Performance was vastly improved however. Two darts struck the plywood, one was pulled out with fingers but the other had penetrated to the extent shown below....
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/GeorgiaPacking/FlechetteTest012.jpg

Impressive isn't it?

One dart penetrated the vest also. Well, 'sorta' penetrated.... How lethal do you think 3/4 inch penetration by an ice pick is going to be?
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/GeorgiaPacking/FlechetteTest011.jpg

The entire story can be found at Georgia Packing.Org (http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14918&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0). You can read it from start to finish or skip to Page 4 and the inglorious end.



Bottom line... IF Flechettes Were Effective, Some Organization With Lots Of Money Would Be Using Them....No One Does. There is a lesson to be learned here, folks..... things that Don't Work, Don't Get Used.