How do you carry a loaded shotgun as a car carry weapon?

[Doug.38PR]

As many people carry shotguns in their cars, I was wondering how to go about doing it. You see police cars carry them up front sticking up in front of the dash board on the passenger side or under the front seat. The former doesn't seem like a great idea for a civilian as it would be clearly visible and accessible to thieves when parked. The latter isn't possible for my Ford Explorer with a center console in the middle of the front seat to the dash board.

Also, is there any kind of device that can hold the gun, and lock it, securely in place so as to not have it sliding around :eek:
Any ideas, any thoughts?

[Nnobby45]

I carry mine (870) with mag tube downloaded by one round, chamber empty on pulled trigger and out of sight in the back seat or all the way to rear in suv. For longer trips, it would be cased.

If for some reason I wanted to have it as ready as possible, in a special situation, should I need to exit the car for some reason, the butt would be on the back floor and the barrel between the console and passenger seat so I could grab and go--or use it from the car, for that matter. In my state, it isn't considered loaded without a chambered round.

Some states may consider loaded as rounds in mag. only, or even attached to the gun-- like California.

[newerguy]

Doug,

Around my parts, you don't see many people who aren't police carrying shotguns in their cars. They ones who keep a quail gun in back window rack aren't keeping them loaded. You have a carry permit. Don't you think a shotgun in addition to your handgun is overkill? If you are in your car, and you have time to dismount a shotgun from its rack and rack a round into it (while I don't recommend carrying a shotgun in your vehicle, I recommend against carrying it with a round in the chamber) can't you also drive away? Cops are driving to trouble, so their needs are different. No offense, but the guys who need to worry about ambushes and roadblocks in the US either high visibility public officials, a very few witnesses in mob or terror cases, criminals worried about rival criminals, and Batman. In Mexico City rich people are sometimes the targets of organized kidnappings for ransom, same a dozen other parts of the world, but not here.

Additionally, some police departments lock weapons in their vehicle racks to reduce the danger of theft. Some don't. A police car probably isn't left unattended as often as your personal vehicle. Now, I don't know about your community, but if someone around my part of Upstate New York had a loaded shotgun stolen out of their car, and used in a crime, lawyers (criminal and civil) would probably say he was reckless for having a loaded shotgun unsecured in his car. (Technically, it is a violation of the NYS Environmental Conservation Law to have a loaded rifle of shotgun in a motor vehicle, but that's a different matter.) Anyway, a cop has a shotgun stolen out of their car and used in a crime, people can say, "well, it shouldn't have happened, but of course he needed the shotgun accessible". Around here, you don't get the benefit of that doubt.

[RsqVet]

WWW.galls.com

Sells police gear and will have pics of the various vehicle lock racks used for shotguns and or patrol carbines. These of course could well be mounted many places in a vehicle to provide secure storage. They even have some chest style lockers for long arms in SUV type vehicles. Of course they are not cheap but quality never is.

Police shotguns are almost always carried with an empty chamber... hence the term "cruiser ready" i.e. hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off.

Of course why one would find the need for this unless you are a rancher is a whole diffirent matter

[Doug.38PR]

Oh ++++++++++++++1 on the NOT carrying one in the chamber! :eek:

Around Houston it is perfectly legal for a NON CHLer to carry a loaded shotgun in their car.

I have heard of several people who carry a shotgun in their car, nothing particularly unusual in the South I guess.

I've heard of a good number of TFL members who carry shotguns in their vehicles.

It makes for a more intimidating AND effective weapon if needed.

Could you drive away? Maybe. But then not if your car is disabled in some way.

[BillCA]

+1 on carrying it cased or in a lockable hard case. If you do it frequently, it's probably a good idea to create a way to secure the locked case to the vehicle as an anti-theft measure.

Unless your local laws -- AND your local LEOs -- consider it legal, your options may vary as to the location of the firearm while driving. But I would opt for one of the mounts RsqVet referred to to keep it safe from theft.

When travelling with a long gun, it typically resides in the trunk or out of sight. I figure if anything starts up that my 1911 won't handle, my best option is to put the gear selector into "Retreat" and press hard on the throttle.

[Doug.38PR]

Of course why one would find the need for this unless you are a rancher is a whole diffirent matter

Well, I am not a rancher, but I do work in rural areas and travel around the countryside often taking me to ranches and farms.

ALSO, I can see some potential need for a shotgun even in the city (or especially in the city). Say you are driving home one night and have a flat or a breakdown in or near the ghetto. You are going to want to have a little intimidation factor to make trouble think twice before it even gets to you while waiting 3 hours for AAA to show up.

Then there is of course the classic Trash Hits the Fan scenario (riot)

[Gbro]

Minnesota came out with a directive to ticket anyone with a uncased-and or loaded long gun. When the carry law was new they stayed neutral on it, but now they say the carry law relates to hadguns only. The transportation of firearms in MN is a DNR-public Safety Law.

[ronfritz]

Speaking from experience, albeit nearly 30 years ago when I was attending college at Marquette, I can tell you what will happen if you are walking down the sidewalk in the middle of the day with a pair of cased, unloaded .22 rifles, and are spotted by an LEO in downtown Milwaukee, WI....you get a free ride in the squad car to the Greyhound Bus station.

Today, with the hindsight and wisdom that comes with 50 years, I can't recommend carrying a long gun in public. At the time, my chief concern was only about whether or not it was legal...which apparently it was....although I have to admit that, when I left my apartment, I only assumed I was in compliance because I was going hunting and was transporting my firearm like I'd always done before....except this time I wasn't driving.

It all started when a buddy who had graduated a year before invited me to come up to his place for a couple days to go squirrel hunting. He lived about 100 miles north of Milwaukee. As I mentioned earlier, I was going to college at the time and, like most college kids (at least in those days), didn't have a car...didn't need one.

I called Greyhound, bought a ticket, took the bolt out of the old Remington..which I still have and the clip out of the even older Remington Nylon 66...which I think I also still have. As a hedge against a possible misinterpretation of the law by myself, I didn't carry any ammo.

I lived on 21st Street and the Bus Station was down on 6th street so the walk was a few blocks more than a mile. At the time, 21st Street was outside the campus in a part of town that people who didn't live there would call a ghetto.

I made a grand total of two blocks before my walk was interupted. I was walking on the north side of the street and passed a cop who had someone pulled over on the opposite side of the street. I noticed that he noticed me but continued my leisurely stoll to the bus station. Within a few seconds of seeing me, he pulled his car at an angle up on the curb in front of me. Apparently he was just finishing up when he first noticed me or he dropped what he was doing.

He stepped out of his car and said, "I supposed you're going to try to tell me you don't have a gun in that case?". I told him he was right, I have two guns in this case. This made him pause so I continued by telling him that I thought I was following all the rules for transporting firearms and that the gun's clip and bolt were not in the case with the guns; they were in my backpack...plus I didn't have any ammo on me at all.

He confirmed that I was not doing anything illegal but said that it was not the kind of thing a guy wanted to do "in this part of town" and asked me what I was doing walking down Wells Street with a couple rifles. I said, I was going hunting. He asked where. I said, "up around Neenah/Menasha." He asked me how I was going to get there. I told him I had a ticket on Greyhound. He asked me how I expected to be allowed to carry the guns on the bus. I told him I wasn't going to carry them on the bus, I was going to put them in the baggage compartment.

He asked me for my driver's license and went back to his car to check me out. Finding I had a spotless record, he returned.

He asked me why I hadn't gotten a ride to the bus station. I told him I was a student at Marquette and didn't know anyone with a car...and I wasn't making that up at all. I suppose I could have asked my boss at the tow truck company - Road Patrol - to give me a lift but was afraid he'd try to talk me into working.

I told him that, if he wanted, I would be happy to get a ride to the bus station in his car. He told me that was against the rules and went back to his car again. When he returned, all he said was, "my boss says I should give you a ride to the bus station."

We had a nice talk after that on the way to the bus station. He even walked in with me and helped me get up to the front of the line.

On the bus it looked like nobody wanted to sit by me until one fairly greasy looking guy took the window seat. All the way to Neenah, he pointed his finger out the window and pretended to shoot people. He gave me the creeps and made me glad I hadn't packed my knife in the luggage compartment with my guns.

I got off the bus in Neenah at about 10:00 at night and walked five miles to my friend's house...this was also before cell phones..in fact I don't think my friend even had a regular phone. But the point is, I walked five miles in a relatively large town but definitely not a city. I walked in the dark, I was passed by multiple LEO's and none of them stopped to find out what I was doing, much less give me a ride to my friend's house.

I returned to Milwaukee the same way and walked all the way home at midnight without any more encounters with LEO's.

I think the moral of this story is that just because something is not against the law does not mean it is necessarily a good idea to do it. It is also not against the law to carry a Ruger three screw with six rounds loaded, but the long odds always seem to come through when you don't want them to so I carry mine with the hammer on an empty chamber.

I hope this helps.

[RsqVet]

"ALSO, I can see some potential need for a shotgun even in the city (or especially in the city). Say you are driving home one night and have a flat or a breakdown in or near the ghetto. You are going to want to have a little intimidation factor to make trouble think twice before it even gets to you while waiting 3 hours for AAA to show up."

WOW I guess the saying common sense is uncommon has never rung more true.

I don't know what or where you have been but as someone who has lived, waked the streets of and worked in what is arguably a "ghetto" you are not even on the same page or chapter with reality here. You are going to be holed up in your car with your loaded shotgun??? Or sitting on the roof for a better vantage point.

Give me a dang brake, get some common sense and stop setting a bad example for the rest of the gun owning and self defense minded public.

For one thing if you have a flat somewhere where you need a shotgun drive on your dang rim, better yet if you really have to go to these places buy a hummer with kevlar and run flats.

For another thing you could hardly manuver a shotgun in a vehicle. Try it in your garage and see for yourself. Second what are you going to do roll down your windows and hang the thing out?? Not to mention your hearing or having to work the slide.

Would common sense not dictate to keep your windows up??

Lastly, and I say this having spent 10 years as a fire/medic volunteer and paid, and being a strong proponent of one's right to defend oneself... .. if we rolled up on a disabled motorist and found the occupant hold up inside with a shotgun that would be an automatic trip for a psych eval unless there were extream extenuating circumstances, i.e. they were fleeing a violent spouse... simply because this is not what normal, prudent people do.

[Dreadnought]

RsqVet, couldn't have said it better myself. At least you beat me to it. And I think a lot of states are adopting the "unloaded long arms in cars" laws, at least that is how it is in the Old Dominion.

[miscusi]

I really enjoyed your story ronfitz.. :)

[Doug.38PR]

RsqVet,
you're generalizing. You are adding absurd elements to my scenario and claiming this is what I am saying.

Manuvering a shotgun in a vehicle? I wouldn't even want to shoot my pistol in my vehicle (I like being able to hear) much less a shotgun loaded with 12 gauge Magnum Buckshot.

Rolling up the windows? Those windows aren't going to stop a determined nut or a gang. I was thinking more about having the gun inside the vehicle within reaching distance, maybe walking to the trunk with it (so as some pondering bangers might have the benefit of seeing briefly that this white mutha...ahem...is armed) as I get a spare (in case I get too old waiting for AAA) and still keeping it out of sight so as not to alarm passing cars or police patrol or the tow truck. I was not advocating standing around or on top of the truck with SG in hand as though on guard duty calling for the tow truck to "HALT!, Friend or foe!" :rolleyes: It's having tools available for a dangerous moment while still exersicing the common sense that you mentioned. If I am approached while changing or waiting by some gang bangers looking for spare change or just plain trouble, I can have the shotgun ready to produce and serve as an intimidation factor (yes one of them might decide to call the police if it came to that...but I not before I did and what jury is going to believe some thug over a guy with a flat tire. But the same thing would happen if it was just my handgun)

[Mannlicher]

On the few times I carry one, I put the shotgun on the floor in the back seat, and cover it with a towel or blanket. It's loaded fully, and there is one in the chamber. I carry an AR or SKS the same way.

I know that I am no where near as good as others at creating scenarios, but I can't see where a shotgun is really the best thing to carry in real life.

[djturnz]

i think it's called a "Shelf-it" look it up. JCWhitney used to sell them

[Maser]

I have an older friend who keeps a 20 gauge in his car for defense. He has it positioned in an odd way in between the driver and passenger seat that it's clearly visable from up close, but can't be seen from far away looking into the windows.

[Mokumbear]

Florida law alllows a firearm to be carried (loaded) in the glove compartment
or center console of your car, even without a concealed carry license!

Now, I do, in fact, have a concealed firearms license.

I am wondering what my rights are regarding transporting a
shotgun in a vehicle?

All the more confusing since I have been told that the concealed carried license only applies to weapons carried concealed "on your person".

I don't plan on making a shotgun my car's "carry gun", but I wonder
what the implications are as far as far as transporting your shotgun to the range are?

Any ideas?

[guisseppi]

Mokumbear, I also have a Florida carry permit.. When I go hunting, I just put the shotgun in the trunk of my car.. If I'm in the truck, I put it in a hard shell case and lay it in the bed of the truck.. In Florida, under these scenarios, the long gun can be either loaded or unloaded and is being carried leagally.. Personally, I wouldn't put a loaded Shotgun in the bed of my truck or in the trunk of my car, but, that's quite up to you....

[simplekindaman]

ive always been told that in flordia, gun is to be unloaded with firearm and ammunition seperate(trunk from cab), and at least three moves away.

i know from experieince if your helping your brother jump his car on a cirt road near railroad tracks near pensacola, and you have a 22 revolver in the glove compartment and rounds locked in a tool box, the cop will hold your gun for you while you sit with your hands in plain view as he checks for warrents/record. its a big pain.



oh and doug, also from experience, as someone with friends from the ghetto, to walk to your trunk with a shotgun to change a flat, youll look silly and probably have someone call the cops on you. best bet is ge a Concealed Carry Permit, and keep it on your hip.

[guisseppi]

Florida Sttute 790.25 Lawful ownership, possession, and use of firearms and other weapons.--

Section (5) located at http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC25.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0790->Section%2025#0790.25
_________________________________________________________________

States The Following; POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
_________________________________________________________________

subsection (2) USES NOT AUTHORIZED.--

(a) This section does not authorize carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, as prohibited by ss. 790.01 and 790.02.

(b) The protections of this section do not apply to the following:

1. A person who has been adjudged mentally incompetent, who is addicted to the use of narcotics or any similar drug, or who is a habitual or chronic alcoholic, or a person using weapons or firearms in violation of ss. 790.07-790.115, 790.145-790.19, 790.22-790.24;

2. Vagrants and other undesirable persons as defined in 1s. 856.02;

3. A person in or about a place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05, unless such person is there for law enforcement or some other lawful purpose.

_________________________________________________________________

790.01 Carrying concealed weapons.--

(1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person who carries a concealed weapon or electric weapon or device on or about his or her person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(2) A person who carries a concealed firearm on or about his or her person commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) This section does not apply to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm pursuant to the provisions of s. 790.06.

(4) It is not a violation of this section for a person to carry for purposes of lawful self-defense, in a concealed manner:

(a) A self-defense chemical spray.

(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.

_________________________________________________________________

subsection (5) This section does not preclude any prosecution for the use of an electric weapon or device, a dart-firing stun gun, or a self-defense chemical spray during the commission of any criminal offense under s. 790.07, s. 790.10, s. 790.23, or s. 790.235, or for any other criminal offense.

_________________________________________________________________

Statute 776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony..

Subsection (3): LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes
Section (h) of subsection (3): A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition

:)

[RsqVet]

Doug --

I am not adding absurd elements to what you state, I quite simply find it unfathomable as to how a shotgun or for that matter any long arm helps you in any way, shape or form in the situation your describe. As others have noted in previous threads you may chose to do as you wish, however this comes off as you WANT to carry a shotgun, almost that you WANT to confront trouble. Sorry but sensable folks avoid trouble unless there is a good reason not to.

You state you might walk to the trunk to get your spare with a shotgun?? Ever been hunting? Any long arm is a major PIA to handle, esp with regard to weapon retention when you have to do other tasks such as retrive a spare. Not to mention the fact that unless you have a long coat there is almost no way to do this in anything aproaching a discreet manner. Honestly if you have to be discreet and armed in such a situation your handgun is your best friend, a long arm a big encumberance and a potential huge liability as it may be hard to retain while you are working or may instantly esclate a situation IF any such confrontation occurs.

Lastly you, refer to bangers and to yourself as a "white mutha". Give me a break, stop the stupid sterotypes and go out and live some life, see part of the world and maybe get some common sense and a clue or two while you are at it.

Your statement is patently offensive, for it assumes that those who prey upon your will be noting your race.. perhaps not even of your race... or that they will care what your race is.. I think I will leave it at that and hope and pray that the mods step in here..

[revjen45]

Loaded long gun in the passenger compartment is legal in TX.

[Doug.38PR]

Doug --

I am not adding absurd elements to what you state, I quite simply find it unfathomable as to how a shotgun or for that matter any long arm helps you in any way, shape or form in the situation your describe. As others have noted in previous threads you may chose to do as you wish, however this comes off as you WANT to carry a shotgun, almost that you WANT to confront trouble. Sorry but sensable folks avoid trouble unless there is a good reason not to.

This doesn't meanyou are looking for trouble. It is, as I said, a means of deflecting trouble. There are people besides myself and indeed inthis forum who do carry a shotgun in their vehicle. There can be potential use.

You state you might walk to the trunk to get your spare with a shotgun?? Ever been hunting? Any long arm is a major PIA to handle, esp with regard to weapon retention when you have to do other tasks such as retrive a spare. Not to mention the fact that unless you have a long coat there is almost no way to do this in anything aproaching a discreet manner. Honestly if you have to be discreet and armed in such a situation your handgun is your best friend, a long arm a big encumberance and a potential huge liability as it may be hard to retain while you are working or may instantly esclate a situation IF any such confrontation occurs.

You won't be holding on to it the entire time. You will be laying it down in the trunk or bed while you get the spare. Walking back to the trunk it will be briefly visible. This is intentional as to keep unwanted bangers or whatever troublemakers away.

Lastly you, refer to bangers and to yourself as a "white mutha". Give me a break, stop the stupid sterotypes and go out and live some life, see part of the world and maybe get some common sense and a clue or two while you are at it.

Your statement is patently offensive, for it assumes that those who prey upon your will be noting your race.. perhaps not even of your race... or that they will care what your race is.. I think I will leave it at that and hope and pray that the mods step in here..

First, I don't care if it is offensive. It's true. Why should I care about offending those who prey on me. :) For one thing, bangers are not the only threat, they are just one of many. Second, I do have more than a clue. Bangers CAN and DO note race as I have seen it from Jr. High to High school. I live in Houston for crying out loud. I've had friends openly threatened with foul language and threats noting their race. One just a few weeks ago one of many reasons why he is about to move out of his apartment complex.
But that's not the point anyway, the point is they can and will prey upon you if they see you are vunerable whether they are bangers, crazy bums, crackheads, grizzleys in the woods, etc.

[ATW525]

I second RsqVet's suggestion to check out Galls.com... I've actually looked at their locks and racks for a potential indoor mounting solution for the home defense shotgun. I live in a state that prohibits loaded longarms in motor vehicles, but if I didn't I'd probably keep one of the much maligned pistol gripped shotguns in the car where it could be accessed from the driver's seat. I would probably never need it, but I imagine it would be better to have it not need it, then need it and not have it in the rare instance I found myself in riot, ambush car jacking or blocked in by a bad guy while trying to get away from a situation.

I question the wisdom of taking the shotgun out of the car to walk to the trunk and change a tire, though. There's a fine line between being prepared and being paranoid. Flashing around a gun to scare off "gangers" when there's no clear threat other than being in a bad neighborhood definitely falls on the paranoid side of that line.

[Doug.38PR]

not if you see bangers or corner crazys standing around in view of your vehicle. Not saying grabbing a shotgun if in a bad neighborhood is always the thing to do. But it is a good option depending on the circumstances.

I will check out Galls.com though

[TonyM1]

ive always been told that in flordia, gun is to be unloaded with firearm and ammunition seperate(trunk from cab), and at least three moves away.

i know from experieince if your helping your brother jump his car on a cirt road near railroad tracks near pensacola, and you have a 22 revolver in the glove compartment and rounds locked in a tool box, the cop will hold your gun for you while you sit with your hands in plain view as he checks for warrents/record. its a big pain.

The '3 move' rule is a myth probably perpetuated by misinformed leo's and subsequently misinformed citizens. Securely encased is the key phrasing in the statute, which means it could be in a zippered case laying on your front seat if you wish.

I've been pulled over several times for traffic violations with a loaded and chambered pistol in the glove box along with my wallet, I inform the leo that he will see a gun when I get my wallet out, and it has not been a problem, they write the ticket and move on. The largest 'hassle' I ever had was in a similar situation and the officer asked me to step out while his partner took the gun out and unloaded it, they handed me back the the gun and ammo after they wrote the ticket. I'd say that the level of scrutiny by the leo will depend on several factors, but I would not let that deter you from having a loaded gun in the glove if that is what you would like to do. I have since gotten a cwp so it is even less of an issue now.

[Glockoma]

Lastly you, refer to bangers and to yourself as a "white mutha". Give me a break, stop the stupid sterotypes and go out and live some life, see part of the world and maybe get some common sense and a clue or two while you are at it.

Your statement is patently offensive, for it assumes that those who prey upon your will be noting your race.. perhaps not even of your race... or that they will care what your race is.. I think I will leave it at that and hope and pray that the mods step in here..


While the original statement is not politically correct, it is very much statistically correct. Look at the annual FBI crime statistics, or better yet the papers and reports that used that data to answer the questions the FBI reports don't dare to.

Here's a synopsis. Of the incidents where the perpetrator and victim are of different race, black-on-white crime is hugely more frequent than the other way around, and this has been the case for a very long time.

I would suggest that it is your ad hominem knee-jerk PC sputtering that is offensive, for it denies the obvious facts of inter-race crime in this country (and elsewhere in the world, actually, for these trends are quite general).

[RecoveringGT'er]

Having lived in a couple of the rougher parts of Houston, I like the idea of a shotgun in the car over a handgun. If you can get to it, it may stop a situation from escalating to actual shooting. For another thing, in Texas, no CHL is needed. At least one friend of mine keeps a 12 gauge pump in his truck, because he doesn't have/want a CHL.

I had a bunch of experiences in Houston that make me question anyone who thinks Doug.38PR is paranoid. Burglary, larceny, assault, and so on hit every neighborhood I ever lived in there. (Not because I lived there, contrary to what one of my buddies thinks...) Now, I did live right on the border between the 3rd and 5th wards, but it was in many other areas as well. Even Bellaire and Katy, IIRC.

[wayneinFL]

+2 on the "two-step rule" or "three-step rule". I hear this all the time, and it's bunk. Where the heck are people getting this?

I was in a gun shop the other day, and one of the employees was explaining his version of the three-step rule to a customer- detailed- as if he had read it out of a book. Another customer corrected him before disinformation was spread any further.

A good book for those who really want to know what the laws are in Florida:

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/index.shtml

I occasionally will keep a shotgun in my vehicle, cased, mag loaded- if i know I am going to have to be stopped in a bad neighborhood at night. (My work requires me to be there from time to time.) I see no reason for me to have one on a regular basis.

I'd never under any circumstances store a shotgun in a vehicle with a round chambered.

[RsqVet]

ATW -- Yeah I agree I have long though it would be easy to make a home lock with one of thoes electric locks mounted to something sturdy and running off a 12 volt battery continiously charged off of a wall socket. Maybe I have gien someone an idea and we will see a product out next year.

Doug --- Let's back up a few steps here...

1. If you, as in your description are looking at, for lack of a better term "bad guys" milling around in your vicinity, I would submit to you that getting out of your vehicle is a poor choice, a show of force, or threat there of (as you suggest by your suggesting of somewhat subtle showign of a long arm) is an even poorer choice.. flat? Drive on it for god's sake if you feal that threatened... some other mechnical problem... fine if you HAVE to get out, then you have to, however as you may some day learn peaple may or may not make a problem for you for any number of reasons... the outward show of force IS SIMPLY NOT A UNIVERSAL SOLUTION... a low profile will offten solve your problem and prvent others... sometimes taking a forceful position will only make matters worse.. no I am not arguing that if an angry mod is headed your way you should not take apropriate action; however there is a difffernace between preventing trouble and being the cause of it... trying to "show off" or "intimidate" those in an area who have no declared intentions against you other than your pre-concived notions boarders on "starting trouble" for all you know "they" may look upon you as an armed interloper in their neighborhood who needs to at the very liest be investigated (by themselves or the police ) or the very worst taught a lesson.

2. If you are in an area where you consider the risk so grave that you are on "red alert", morover so much so that you need a long arm... then you NEVER, ever, ever allow any weapon to be outside of your immediate controll for any reason... laying it down in the bed or trunk? seems way foolish to me for I have seen the speed of some attacks and would not want ANY weapon off of my body / immediate controll if I am in condition red. Sure I have a side arm on as well (and presume that you would as well) however I don't want to bet my life on my skill with a handgun agianst any BG with a weapon, let alone a lonng arm that I ahve now given him.

3. Lastly Doug and Glockoma give it a rest... frankly if you knew me you would know that I am one of the lieast politically correct people you will ever meet. However I make my statment for two reasons, one I TRULY FIND IT OFFENSIVE ... assumptions that are borad or sweeping almost always offend me... if they are about a particular group of people of a color, locality or type being a certain way then I find that offensive. Sorry I have lived enough to see the other side of things. At the same time if it's about a particular gun having no "sporting use" or people who carry, or drive trucks of a certain type being a certian way then I find that too offensive. It's a double edged blade that leads to a slipery slope and some pretty foul logic so in my opinion the only thing a rightous person can do is fight it in all forms.

No I am not debating whatever national numbers that anyone wants to spout from whatever study or agency they chose. However it's not that simple... for a varity of resons, one I do not think anyone would question that poverty begets crime and in that sense in some areas the populations living in poverty are largely of certian groups dependign upon region... for that reason I find myself more on alert whenever I am in such enviorments regardless of color. Morover the simple existance of those statistics does not establish a cause and effect relationsip in an individual instance... just as a medical study can tell you, if you are a betting person if you should bet on yourself surviving a given condition, it however has not definitive ability to predict EXACTLY how you will do. So in short if we stop using our brains and taking people as indivials and relegate them into groups from which we make sweeping judgments... then we are being grossly unfair just as the summary banning of black rifles with pistol grips and detachable magazines is stupid and unfair.

My second reason for calling Doug on this, is because I frankly think these sweeping generalizations do anyone looking out for themselves a major disservice, as at best you are only going to be right to whatever degree your statistics and generalizations are right, which when you get down to it is not a very good number -- say 70% at best. If you use your brain and common sense you can do much better than this, regardless of if you are talking about crime or medicine. I do not question that crime happens for many reasons, however the simple fact that it involves two races does nto make it racialy motivated no more so than the converse would be true, however we need to stop talking about it in such BS terminology (such as Doug uses) if we ever expect such assumptions and stupidity to go away.

Lastly if you like it or not what is said here is something of a public forum... and each and everyone of us has to think about that in our discourse. I honestly have little hope that Doug will look at this and even see the point that I am trying to make, however I feel quite strongly that his statments are so out there that they must be countered in some way publicly.

[Bud Helms]

My goodness. This used to be one of the more sane forums.

In my judgement, everything that needs to be said, has been.

This thread is closed.