Massad Ayoob might be in my area...

[Tuttle8]

I started a thread inquiring about tactical handgun courses and a gentleman gave me a link that has a course with Massab Ayoob. I researched his name under Wikipedia and needless to say, I was impressed.
Anybody have any additional comments on him?
Has anybody had training from him or has at least met him?

[Capt Charlie]

Ask him yourself, Tuttle. He's an active member (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/member.php?u=33469) at TFL, although I don't think his schedule permits a lot of time here.

[Tuttle8]

Small world, isn't it?:o
Thanks, Capt. Charlie. Hope your mastiff is doin' well.;)
Looks like I'll PM him and patiently wait for a reply.

[pax]

My thoughts about two of Ayoob's classes:

http://www.corneredcat.com/ClassReviews/LFI1.htm
http://www.corneredcat.com/ClassReviews/LFI2.htm

pax

[kgpcr]

What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.

[tepin]

I like Ayoob and have purchased a few of his books and his DVD on use of deadly force. I do plan on taking his "LFI I" class when I get the time and money. If you have the chance to take a class, do so. I hear a lot of good things about the LFI stuff.

[Capt Charlie]

Just curious, kgpcr, did you read Pax's reviews? I work with several veteran SRT officers that have trained under Mas, and their experience with him echos that of Pax.

As to training under a Marine, I have the utmost respect for them, but their training and that pertaining to civilian defensive tactics is apples and oranges. While the basics are close, I'm sure, using military tactics in the streets of Hometown, USA, is most likely to earn you a trip to the pokey.

Mas stresses staying alive and staying out of jail ;) .

[shep854]

kgpcr: Mas has had decades of intensive study and training in defensive tactics for private citizens. He would be the last one to suggest that he could train for combat.

He has worked extensively with Chuck Taylor, an Army Ranger VN combat vet. As regarding combat Marines, Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) should meet your requirements, and I beleive he would speak well of Mas.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Took LFI-1 and I thought the experience was well worth.

[Musketeer]

What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.


Unfortunately it is often not feasible to have a squad with automatic weapons and grenades travelling with you day to day, to say nothing of the use of air support and artillery to counter typical street crime.

Now for some reality. I have not yet had the opportunity to take any LFI courses but I have digested as much of Mr. Ayoob's writings as possible. I credit him for teaching me the skills that in one instance allowed me to effectively protect myself and thwart a carjacker back when I deliverred pizza in college 15 + years ago. In that same job I encounterred another situation where, thanks to having the "proper attitutde" as explained in his writings, I was able to de-escalate a very bad situation with a crazed biker twice my size and allow everyone to go home alive (although I was preparred to ensure I would go home alive no matter what way it turned out).

If you plan on studying under him I will tell you this based on his writings alone,

Leave your ego at home.

His training is not about "Justice" or "Standing Up For Yourself."

His training is about saving your life and after that keeping you out of prison. There are times when , although you are "in the right" you will be advised to eat some crow to defuse a situation. You may doubt the reason for this but do yourself a favor; ask him why and for examples of why rather than discounting his advise as for "wimps and pansies".

[18DAI]

What Mr Ayoob teaches, works on the street, and for sport shooters as well. I've learned alot from paying attention to what he writes and says, and practicing it. IMHO in addition to "talking the talk", Mr Ayoob also walks the walk. He's one of the few, that has been there and done that. I can't ask for more than that from any instructor. Regards 18DAI.

[Charles S]

What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.

When I want to learn combat I will learn from a Marine, when I want to know about self defesnse I seek an expert in that arena, most Marines are not experts in self defense as an individual in a civilian environment, Mr. Ayoob is.

kgpcr, have you taken his courses and basing your opinion on your experience, or are you basing it on lack your lack of knowledge?

What other courses have you taken that you do recommend?

I highly recommend LFI, Mr. Ayoob is a dynamic speaker and an excellent teacher. One of the best courses you will ever take, and essential to a civilian who carries a weapon for self defense.

[Tuttle8]

Wow, I didn't mean to pour gas on the fire.:eek:
Thanks for y'all's inputs. I have more links to look up on this thread and others I've viewed to keep me busy until Christmas!:D

And there ain't nothin' wrong with that!

[WmCC]

As briefly mentioned in my profile, I've been fortunate both to have been in combat with some of those fine Leathernecks years ago and more recently on the street with law enforcement (the past 17 years).

Take it from one who knows, learning never,ever, ceases and comes from ALL Quarters. Repeat, ALL Quarters! Each of us has to sort out the good from the not-so-good while being as technically proficient as we possibly can be with a weapon. Situational awareness, obtaining any and all advantage(s) over the bad guy(s) and a good mindset are critical. We can and should learn from everyone, including the bad guys themselves! Many of the best that I've served with and would want backing me up are about as far away from your mental image of Jeff Cooper, Skeeter or Matt Dillon as they can be...look at Audey Murphy, Jim Cirrillo, SGT York and yes, Ayoob, as examples of gents who do not necessarily fit everyone's image of the consumate pistolero but who have gotten the job done. Learn from everyone. Study the details of what was done right as well as the screw-ups. Enjoy the journey, it should never end.

With a little luck backed up by a great deal of study/preparation , you may never have to employ appropriate force. I've been told by more than one felon that there was "something about" some cop/guy/gal/potential victim that caused them to abandon their plan...I think that they sensed some potential danger. Perhaps that is the best outcome.

It's not about the Marines or Ayoob having been to the top of the mountain...it's about all of us trying to get there.

[Eghad]

After reading Pax's reviews I would say that at $350.00 the value of his experience is a steal for that price.

The valuable thing that most of my mentors in life passed down is their experiences. When the time came and I had to cross those same bridges I was glad I had the benefit of their experiences and lessons.

Knowledge and experience like that is a valuable commodity.

[tepin]

What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.
Pulling the trigger is easy. Knowing when its legal and how to stay out of jail is another matter. Look what the two border patrol agents are going through. They are being burned alive by their own kind. Who should you fear most: the DA in the suit and tie or the gangster kicking your front door in to snatch your TV? Die defending your home or die poor, divorced and from a prison cell.
You document what you read and document your training to increase the odds of staying out of jail. Take the class. If you have to ask what makes Ayoob such an expert, you have not done your homework. Start with google, then amazon.com, then ayoob.com.

Marines and combat????? Are you kidding? Seriously, you cannot take military training and tactics and apply them to civilian self defense. It just doesn't work.

Read the laws in your State. If you carry or plan to use a gun to defend your home, talk to an attorney about your deadly force options and attend training.

[Jeff22]

I took LFI-1 in 2000, and Streefire Rifle and a Class on investigating officer involved shootings in 2003, and LFI-2 in 2004. I've been reading Ayoob's articles since about 1978 (back then he did a lot of writing for Law & Order Magazine, which was where I first encountered him) and I think I've read all his books.

The thing I like best about Ayoob's firearms instruction is that he is not dogmatic about anything. If there is a valid alternate technique for stance or grip or some aspect of weapons manipulation, he can probably explain it and teach it. He himself favors a modified Isoceles stance but also teaches the Chapman and the Weaver, and a variety of different kneeling and prone positions. I also did find that he was very good at coaching new shooters or those experiencing problems.

The two day course "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" covers all the general legal principles involved in the use of deadly force. I think that everybody who contemplates using a firearm in self defense could benefit from this class. There is a great deal of misinformation floating around out there and it's a good idea to get correct information in a structured way so you have a better understanding of the topic.

The two day class "Stressfire" is LFI's basic firearms class, and the other classes build off of that. The instruction is basic and involves about 500 rounds of ammunition. I enjoyed it because, as I noted above, LFI teaches all the common variations in technique so that the user can best select that combination of techniques that best suits him or her.

The two classes can be taken separately and when completed, combined to get certification as a graduate of LFI-1, a useful thing of schedule or finances require you to split up the training into two parts.

His books are also pretty good resources:

IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME: THE ROLE OF THE FIREARM IN PERSONAL PROTECTION (1980) by Massad F. Ayoob

THE TRUTH ABOUT SELF PROTECTION (1984) by Massad F. Ayoob

THE GUN DIGEST BOOK OF COMBAT HANDGUNNERY (5th edition) (2003)
by Massad F. Ayoob

STRESSFIRE (1984) by Massad Ayoob

STRESSFIRE II: Advanced Combat Shotgun (1982) by Massad F. Ayoob

THE SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL IN POLICE SERVICE AND SELF DEFENSE (1988)
By Massad F. Ayoob

IN SELF DEFENSE by Mike Izumi (Mike Izumi is an LFI assistant instructor)

[buzz_knox]

What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.

I've had the good fortune to train under some of the top instructors in the business, including one ex-Marine who we all know and love. And, I've had occasion to train under Mas twice.

Mas teaches you when to shoot, while other instructors emphasize how to shoot. Both are equally important.

[kgpcr]

Well as a Marine who has pulled a trigger for real i can tell you that there are those who can talk about it and those who have done it. No disrespect to Mas but has he ever been in a fire fight of any kind? Or is he one who knows from what he has studied?

[kgpcr]

I know i should not double post but here it goes. I will say this MOST people who carry should not be. Time and time again we hear of people who got shot with thier own weapon. If you carry you have to be able to pull the trigger if needed. MOST people wont when the time comes. I have and its not an easy thing to do. Mine was in the military but its not a natural thing. you have to have the ability to pull the trigger when needed and alot of people talk alot of **** but when the time comes lets see what happens.

[natjohnb]

I will say this MOST people who carry should not be. Time and time again we hear of people who got shot with thier own weapon. If you carry you have to be able to pull the trigger if needed. MOST people wont when the time comes.

Do you have any stats to back these statements up? Granted this may apply to SOME who chose to carry. But I would argue that MOST would not. Just by choosing to carry and defend yourself shows that mentally you are willing to use deadly force if necessary, and most who carry have had some form of training (or plan on it) that has at least somewhat mentally conditioned them for a gunfight.

Citizens of this country have a right to protect themselves, and those who chose to get a CCW have a right to do so. If you really think that the average person who carries; cannot pull the trigger if necessary and is more likely to be killed by their own gun by a BG, then maybe you should go join the Brady crowd, that sounds like their rhetoric.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The number of firearms accidents has been dropping in absolute terms over the years while the numbers of firearms in society and number of CCW/CHL holders has increased.

[Charles S]

kgpcr,

Thank you for your service to the country, I respect that and you. Again, thanks.

You have been tried under fire and know how you will respond, I understand that makes you different than most. Most people who experience trial by fire are unwilling to talk about it.

I will say this MOST people who carry should not be. Time and time again we hear of people who got shot with thier own weapon.

Please back up that statement. I personally believe that everyone has a right to defend them self, upon what are you basing your assertion?

Please provide any data regarding civilians in a concealed carry scenario who are shot with their own weapon. I don't believe you can provide a single case, much less broad statistics.

MOST people wont when the time comes.

Please back up that statement.

I asked you two questions. I will ask again.

In regards to Ayoob.

kgpcr, have you taken his courses and basing your opinion on your experience, or are you basing it on lack your lack of knowledge?

What other courses have you taken that you do recommend?

I know you know how you will respond under stress? Can you teach that? No you cannot, you can educate someone regarding the situation and feelings, but you cannot pre-program their response. Please let me know what you, who have been in combat can offer a civilian regarding concealed carry? What can you teach regarding situations that will arise in concealed carry that Mr. Ayoob cannot teach?

I cannot speak as to whether or not Mr. Ayoob has been in a gunfight, you may ask him. I can speak to the fact that he has studied the human response to stress in a gunfight extensively and he prepares his students for that stress.

Mr. Ayoob has trained hundreds if not thousands of students, many of whom have been in gunfights and have done well. That in itself is enough.

Again I state combat and civilian concealed carry are unrelated. If I want to walk the streets of Fallujah I will get trained by a Marine, if I want to assault beaches I will get trained by a Marine, if I want to clear houses in a MOUNT environment a Marine, but if I want to walk the city streets of Houston and be prepared for the problems that may arise there is none better than Mr. Ayoob to prepare me.

One cannot teach response in stress, but one can be prepared for it. Mr. Ayoob does that in his classes.

I respect you, but I personally think you are making statements that you cannot justify and are based upon your lack of knowledge.

[Capt Charlie]

OK fellers, there seems to be a drift towards a subject that's likely to become somewhat... heated. I understand the passions involved, but tuttle asked about Mr. Ayoob. By going there in this thread, we do tuttle a disservice.

If you want to debate who should or should not be carrying, or the merits of Marine Corps training, start another thread, but let's keep this one on track.

[Doug.38PR]

I researched his name under Wikipedia and needless to say, I was impressed.

What exactly impressed you? There is nothing in wikipedia about him. I was curious myself and checked...they don't have anything on him:confused:

EDIT: Ahhh, you misspelled his name slightly. It's Massad Ayoob not Massab Ayoob.

Great career. Has a lot to be proud of.

[Charles S]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

[kgpcr]

Put me in with the Brady crowd and i may bend one of your teeth!! Just kidding. I ABSOLUTELY believe we have the right to carry as long as we are law abiding citizens. I would defend that right to the death. My point was if you cant pull the trigger when you need to then you should not carry. You cant say for sure you would unless you have. Look at some of the UTUBE clips and you can see the cops waiting to shoot. One of the big reasons they put spotters with snipers is so when the moment came to shoot they would.

[M1911]

My point was if you cant pull the trigger when you need to then you should not carry. You cant say for sure you would unless you have.Let's take this to its logical conclustion -- therefore no one should carry until they've been in a gunfight. That's what your saying. Of course, if you followed this, then you would not have a gun in your first gunfight, which is probably not a good way to survive it.

Getting back to the subject of Massad Ayoob, who, it appears, you have no direct knowledge of...

I've taken many training classes, about 200 hours worth, including LFI-1 and LFI-2. Ayoob is profane. He is also quite entertaining. You will spend a fair bit of time in his classes watching his videos. That is not because he is lazy. He does that so that if you get in a legal jam, your attorney may be able to get your training about justifiable use of deadly force introduced into evidence, and thus be able to present the videos to the jury.

The basic firearms training in LFI-1 is good. It is square range work, with little if any movement and no moving targets (at least, it was when I took it several years back). The safety training is excellent.

I've also trained at Sigarms Academy and Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain, who also teaches at Gunsite). My style has evolved over the years to a blend of all three. I don't strictly follow the teachings of any of the three, but instead pick and choose what works for me. One of the things that I respect about Ayoob is that when there are several different techniques for a particular task, he will teach all of them, tell you which he prefers and why, but he is not dogmatic about it. He says try them all, see what works for you, and then train that way. There are schools that say everyone should carry this kind of gun and use that kind of stance and reload this way, etc., etc. That's not how Ayoob works.

Ayoob is unsurpassed in training the legal ramifications of deadly force -- when you can, and more importantly, when you cannot shoot. What to say to responding police officers, and how to not get shot by same.

My cousin was my best man at our wedding. He retired from the Marine Corps as a CWO4. With handguns, I can shoot rings around him. I have a great deal of respect for the Corps. But they don't teach the law of self defense. I suspect that, outside of special units, their handgun training is limited and that they don't cover drawing from a holster or holstering a loaded gun.

There are other schools that I think do a better job as shooting academies than LFI, but none that match LFI-1 for covering the legal aspects of deadly force. I think LFI-1 is a great class.

[Tuttle8]

Sorry about the misspelling, Doug.:o

I think I'm going to make a terribly tough decision and still go the training course in Michigan in May instead of the course with Mr. Ayoob.

I've done some research a couple of months back about Cumberland Tactics with Randy Cain instructing. My wife and I are going together as a vacation gift to each other.(We haven't been on a real vacation in 13 years:eek: :( )

However, the next stop at ANY course is going to be Mr. Ayoob's. You guys have really shed some serious light in the importance of Mr. Ayoob's training. But, we can only do a little at a time unfortunately.

Thanks again for the info. By all means, keep the posts coming. You never know what other valuable experiences people might share so that I and others can learn.

[Abstract]

As to training under a Marine, I have the utmost respect for them, but their training and that pertaining to civilian defensive tactics is apples and oranges. While the basics are close, I'm sure, using military tactics in the streets of Hometown, USA, is most likely to earn you a trip to the pokey.



Charlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice. Some of his opinions, like the use of modified weapons, reloads, etc., in cases of s.d., seem to have emanated from between his ears. I'm convinced that some of Ayoob's theories are more damaging than helpful to me as a firearms owner.

I'll stick with real attorneys for legal advice. Will pay attention to real, well-educated and experienced l.e.o.s for the benefit of their advice. I'm skeptical of a seminar-giver whose only training was by attending the same kind of seminars that he gives.

[pax]

Abstract ~

Some of Ayoob's classes qualify as continuing education credits with the ABA. Apparently the lawyers themselves believe the man has some knowledge worth learning.

pax

[Mas Ayoob]

Tuttle8: While I've never taken one of Randy Cain's courses, I've heard lots of good things about his training from his graduates, and I'm sure you and your wife will learn a lot and have a good time. Enjoy!

Abstract: As I make clear to my students, I've never had to shoot anyone and hope to keep it that way. This is due largely to the fact that everyone I would have needed to shoot so far decided to cease hostilities when I got my gun on them first. However, both I and the next opponent may not be so lucky next time, which is why I continue to learn as well as teach.

Getting your legal advice from lawyers is the smart thing to do. I do it myself. Next time you're getting some legal advice from a lawyer, ask him or her to explain to you the difference between the legal advice they give, and the common sense courtroom survival advice that I offer. Might be a good thing for ya to know.

And finally, Abstract, if you think what I teach about courtroom survival is based on seminars, you haven't done your homework.

[kgpcr]

M1911
I never said that unless you have been in a firefight you should not carry. What i am saying is that alot of guys take a CCW class and think they are good to go. some are and some are not. Many people including cops are shot with thier own gun because they did not pull the trigger when they should have. If you are going to carry you need to spend some time thinking about it and not take it lightly. Iknow people who carry who think all they have to do is show thier gun and its over. That may work sometimes but dont bet your life on it. I hope more people start to carry but only with a proper mental attitude. the west was not won until the good guys started shooting back.

[M1911]

harlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice.It is my understanding as well that Ayoob has not been in a firefight. The same is probably true of most firearms instructors.

From what I remember from his classes, Ayoob has made a number of arrests as a reserve police officer, some at gunpoint. He has also displayed his gun on at least one occasion when he was accosted by two muggers, and detained one individual who broke into his home (on that occasion, I don't recall if he displayed his gun or not -- IIRC, it was mostly his great dane who did the detaining).

I don't know about his legal education. I do believe that he is not an attorney. However, he has worked as a police prosecutor for his local police department. In addition, he has testified as an expert witness in quite a few trials. So he has first-hand experience in the courtroom in self defense cases. That is something that most of us keyboard commandos do not have. Do I agree with everything he was written? No. But I don't dismiss it out of hand.

[M1911]

What i am saying is that alot of guys take a CCW class and think they are good to go. some are and some are not. Many people including cops are shot with thier own gun because they did not pull the trigger when they should have. If you are going to carry you need to spend some time thinking about it and not take it lightly. Iknow people who carry who think all they have to do is show thier gun and its over. That may work sometimes but dont bet your life on it. I hope more people start to carry but only with a proper mental attitude.If you read Ayoob's books or go to LFI-1, you'll see that he is in violent agreement with this. He spends a good deal of the course discussing mindset, that you have to ask yourself whether you are willing to take a life, and the time to do that is long before a gunfight.

[Musketeer]

Charlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice. Some of his opinions, like the use of modified weapons, reloads, etc., in cases of s.d., seem to have emanated from between his ears. I'm convinced that some of Ayoob's theories are more damaging than helpful to me as a firearms owner.


Most instructors have not been in a firefight. At the same time some of those who have, Like Jim Cirillo, give high marks to Mr. Ayoob. If Mr. Cirillo can endorse him and he has really been there on multiple occasions, I think I can accept what he is saying.

As far as legal advice, Mr. Ayoob has been an accept expert witness in MANY trials for both private citizens and LEOs. Lots of people like to poo-poo his advise as groundless gossip. It seems no matter how many times he points out actual cases that apply directly to his advice there will still be those who refuse to believe it. The latest was an entire article on "Seven Myths That Can Hang You In Court" in the current issue (May 2007) of COmbat Handguns. In the article are examples to back up every "myth." Frankly the arguments about Ayoob's advice being groundless are getting pretty damn annoying since it takes about 2 minutes to prove any one of them. It is easier though to shovel the Gun Store Commando machismo around that "all that matters is the shoot was good," "reloads make no difference for self defense" and other such claptrap.

To those who think all Ayoob is is a guy rehashing old training then feel free to put together a training regime, start a school, and perform as successfully as Mr. Ayoob and his graduates.

[M1911]

While I've never taken one of Randy Cain's courses, I've heard lots of good things about his training from his graduates, and I'm sure you and your wife will learn a lot and have a good time.I took LFI-1 about 8 years ago and Randy Cain's basic course the year before last.

Randy Cain's course is basically a shooting course. He spends very little time on the legal implications of the use of deadly force. He did cover shooting on the move and shooting moving targets -- something not done in LFI-1, IIRC.

I think I learned more about marksmanship from Randy than I did at LFI-1, but that may be because I'm a lot better shooter now and was able to absorb more. I may just have been oversaturated at LFI-1. My shooting style now is a blend of Randy's and Ayoob's styles.

I learned far, far more about the legal implications of deadly force in LFI-1 than I did in Randy Cain's course.

Bottom line is that I give both courses two big thumbs up.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If one reads the research on what influences juries - and there is a large literature on it from social sciences and legal scholars - you would see that what Mas states is not out of line with the effects that they report from simulations or reviewing cases.

I found the, as I said before, the class most worthwhile.

[Capt Charlie]

Charlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice.
Neither have I (been in a firefight), Abstract, but in my 30 years in law enforcement, I've come literally within milliseconds of ending a human life on several occasions. On at least two occasions, debriefing revealed that I would have been legally justified in using deadly force, but I'm very glad that I didn't. One was attempting "suicide by cop" by slowly raising a Glock toward me, in spite of commands to drop it. I actually had my DA trigger pulled halfway back when he thought better of it and finally dropped it. He got the help he needed and is a productive, law abiding member of society today.

I don't know why some people think it necessary to have been engaged in an actual firefight to know, positively, whether or not you can. In those few seconds, I learned that I definitely am mentally prepared to do so, if need be.

All that was necessary was that I was placed in a situation where that decision had to be made, whether or not shots were actually fired.

I will say, however, that most who have never had to make that grim decision won't know for sure until that time comes.

Some of his opinions, like the use of modified weapons, reloads, etc., in cases of s.d., seem to have emanated from between his ears.
My guess is that most of today's defensive tactics came from "between someone's ears" ;) . Someone thought up things like the Weaver stance, flashlight techniques, and the list goes on. I'm not about to write them off because they didn't come from a computer or a team of engineers.

Then there's the legal ramifications of a shooting. The fight isn't over when shots stop being fired. Afterward, someone will spend weeks or months dissecting thoughts and actions that you had only seconds to deal with. For cops, when that someone is a chair-riding bureaucrat like Charlie Reynolds (Mas knows who I'm talking about) that believes a cop can do no right, you're very happy when someone like Mr. Ayoob has prepared you for the courtroom battle to come. I was raked over the coals for six months for simply aiming my duty weapon at a fleeing felon that almost ran me down in his vehicle; no shots were fired. Trust me, the legal battle can be almost as stressful as the shooting itself.

Bottom line: When a number of highly experienced, veteran SRT officers who have been there, done that, highly recommend Mr. Ayoob's training or expert witness, that's good enough for me.