'shadow' ccw: true or not?

[NPS,LE]

Does this seem true from your experience? If true, it is an interesting sociology comment on who is armed, for what reaons, and who is not.

One of the firearms instructiors I know, who seems to be reliable and does a ton of CCW training in California, has told me that some huge amount of his business is women who want CCW-type training (for any of a thousand reasons they feel threatened and want a gun with them all the time), do not go through the license process, but still want to carry and know how to use a pistol, often small and very concealable.

What's intesting here is his contention there is a 'shadow' population of gun carry ladies and that there are a lot more of them than usually understood or recognized. I know there are guys who carry without the paperwork (and take their chances if caught), but could it be true that women also carry without permit, pehaps even more than men?

Thoughts?

[mikejonestkd]

It could be true that there are a small number of people that carry without a permit, but I would guess that most of us here play by the rules and laws all the time.

The legal repercussions of not having a CCW and being caught are pretty stiff, not worth it IMO.

besides, more and more states are allowing CCW in the last ten years. There is no real reason to NOT have a permit in most states.

[NukemJim]

I know there are guys who carry without the paperwork (and take their chances if caught), but could it be true that women also carry without permit, pehaps even more than men

I have no way to know for sure but from people that produce firearms when I image them at the hospital, I believe that many women do carry without a permit ( I work in Illinois so no one can get a permit )

NukemJim

[SundownRider]

I would contend that there are a lot of people in the anti-gun state of Illinois who choose to go armed and are very discreet about it. They will suffer the consequences oif caught, but I suppose that doesn't outweigh their determination to not be a victim.

Kind of a "victimless crime" here in Daley-land.

[Edward429451]

I'll fess up to never getting my permit. Got the packet twice and pitched it after seeing how deep they wanted to intrude. Been discreet for 20+ years and no problems thank God.

Being in Colorado makes it easy though. We have open carry so if I'm getting pulled over, all I have to do is to sit it on the seat beside me. Of course I keep it concealed from 90%+ of the citizenry so as not to scare anyone unnecessarily, or telegraph to BG's to shoot first.

Being clean cut & driving a service van helps too, I'm sure.

[James A. Mullins]

I've had my cc for many years. How ever I've heard a lot of people who thougt the questions ask for a cc now are to intrusive. Comments are rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.
James:) ;) :cool:

[lockedcj7]

My wife took the course with me but balked at having her fingerprints done. She's paranoid about the government having them on file.:confused:

...and I thought I was paranoid. She rarely, if ever, has a gun on her person though. She will carry one in the car on occasion but that's legal in our state anyway. She also figures that any LEO is going to cut her some slack since she's a hausfrau with kids.

[RJay]

It's your wife's proragative not to want her fingerprints on file. However I've been fingerprinted many times in the course of my life and I've yet to see any black helicopters flying over my house nor have I really given it much thought. Other than the mess of the black ink I understand that for many of the jobs I've held, fingerprinting was a necessary evil. I've never feared the goverment was going to break down my door in the middle of the night. But, that's whats makes this country so great, to each his own.:o

[Kreyzhorse]

Just to add another twist to this, but in states like Kentucky, any one can carry a loaded handgun in their glovebox. This isn't breaking the law, but it does mean that a large portion of non-CCW people can still have reasonable access to handguns when out and about legally. In carried illegally prior to my CCW, but I wasn't shy about carrying one in my glovebox.

[tony pasley]

Women have been the largest group of first time buyers for several years now.

[sanson]

I would say "get a permit" to anyone interested in carrying. it's fun and easy, why take a chance on doing jail time for the $200 average cost

[orionengnr]

I would say "get a permit" to anyone interested in carrying. it's fun and easy,
Not in California, where the original poster lives.
Certainly not in Illinois, from which I moved three years ago. :)
Not in NJ, MD, DC, parts of NY, and so on...

However I've been fingerprinted many times in the course of my life and I've yet to see any black helicopters flying over my house nor have I really given it much thought.

Of course you can't see the black helicopters, silly! They're black and fly at night. Now put that tinfoil hat back on and sit in the corner for an hour...:rolleyes:

[Edward429451]

At the window.;) :D

[Supertac]

My wife and I both carry. Screw CA Unconstitutional laws. MANY of my friends carry as well. We refuse to abide by these laws. Police aren't required to protect us, we protect ourselves.

[NPS,LE]

I do not want to make a big deal about this, intend to drop the subject, but it is just interestng to me as a spectator of the American experiment that I have now heard from a number of folks who are now carrying without paperwork and, yup, seems a bunch of them are ladies -- is there any chance that us guys are, once again, following the womenfolk?

[CraigJS]

Seems like this shadow group would be the one's most likely to have unregistered guns. Bought at gun shows, off the street, or passed down through the family. If they carry on the sly and have to use the piece to get out of trouble, they'd throw it down, and if possible walk away.. As long as no witnesses were around to point them out, they walk, with the piece doing what they got it for, saving their bacon.. Seems to me like this would be more of a younger male type action. Sounds sort of gangbangerish doesn't it?

[Don H]

Quote:
I would say "get a permit" to anyone interested in carrying. it's fun and easy,

Not in California, where the original poster lives.

CA is "may issue". Some counties are almost "shall issue. Last time I looked, there were well over 50,000 CCW permits issued in CA.

[Edward429451]

Seems like this shadow group would be the one's most likely to have unregistered guns. Bought at gun shows, off the street, or passed down through the family. If they carry on the sly and have to use the piece to get out of trouble, they'd throw it down, and if possible walk away.. As long as no witnesses were around to point them out, they walk, with the piece doing what they got it for, saving their bacon.. Seems to me like this would be more of a younger male type action. Sounds sort of gangbangerish doesn't it?

Putting myself in your shoes I can understand why you'd think that, and maybe, possibly, you're right to an extent. But for the record, I'm a 44 yr old professional white male, married to my first wife, my only two kids are grown, and I bought my 1911 NIB at a gunstore back in 1984.

I would certainly never throw my pistol down, or run after having to use it. I'd expect to be caught so I would bolster my defense by calling the police and being very cooperative.

[BillCA]

DonH,

That 50,000 permits is misleading, given the size of California's population. For instance, with the LA area having 3.8 million people, this is just 1.3%. If you include just the largest 5 cities in CA, this drops to 0.69%. Getting a permit in CA may be possible according to the law, but in practice, it's extremely difficult. I'd say that at least 10% of those permits are to reserve LEOs, about 15% to well established business owners, 20% to security and investigative businesses and the rest to political supporters and known individuals. Single mom with a stalking, abusive ex-husband? Forget it.

CraigJS - your scenario sounds more criminal oriented than what I think most people would tend to do.

I think there are a lot of cops who might cut women some slack on CCW without a permit. Certainly more than they would for men.

Two brief stories:
I knew a woman who worked for an auto broker and drove cars all over the state for car dealers. These trips were 8-12 hour drives between Sacramento and San Diego. Often times she'd arrive hours before the dealer could accept the car and in some seedy areas. She always carried two guns - a snubby .38 and a S&W Highway patrolman. Whenever she was stopped, she'd place the gun on the right seat and tell the officer, "Don't be alarmed, but my revolver is on the other seat." Most times they'd ask why she had it. "I'm driving to L.A. alone, at night and I'm not going to be robbed or raped out here." In 10 years, only one cop hassled her and his sergeant told him to drop it.

My ex-wife and I rode motorcycles here in CA almost year round. Once, when she was travelling to Tahoe alone, she stopped along side the freeway for a maintenance issue. After 3 guys in a pickup stopped, she retreived her snubby .38 from the fairing and when they made their intents obvious, she showed she was not an easy victim. They left in a hurry. :D A few minutes later, as she packed away the tools, CHP showed up. She told the officer about the pickup and told him the gun was secure in her zippered jacket pocket. He examined the gun and told her he could arrest her for a CCW misdemeanor. I thought her explanation was perfect -- "Let's see, I'm a 29 year old blonde female, weigh 117 pounds, on a motorcycle with no doors to lock or windows to roll up. And darn it, wouldn't you know, the bike has a problem on a day I forgot to leave my vagina at home!" The officer laughed, handed her the gun back, then the cartridges and said "Don't load that until I'm gone - and drive safely." :D

[CraigJS]

Your right in the way it sounds. If people can't or won't get a permit it IS criminal.. BUT, sometimes things have to be done to protect ourselves against the BG's that are 180 degrees from what our day to day actions/values would be. Look around, how many stand and take your medicine type of people are out there now days, not as many as we'd like. (I think)
I wouldn't "throw down" a nice Ed Brown 1911, but a 250.00 Kel tec etc. maybe a different story if I didn't have a permit and had just used it in my defence..
I do have a permit, have trained, practiced etc. I've done what I believe I had to do in my defence, they are doing what they believe they need to do, for that I can't talk them down..

Be safe.

[PointOneSeven]

Yes, I know a couple. It's easy to drop a gun in their purse, they'll have it if they need it. It's usually a $200 POS black brick semiauto or an old revolver from the 80's that's been in the family.

How much time are they actually going to do if they shoot a rapist or robber?

[lockedcj7]

Craig, you're making an awful lot of assuptions about people you've never met.

When I was growing up, there was a rapist preying on nurses working second-shift in Nashville. When they got to work, the parking lots were full so they had to park in the boonies. After their shift, they had to walk across a big, open lot to get to their cars. The guy's MO was to hide behind their car, force them at knife point into the car and tie them up with the seatbelt.

One morning, he jumped out and surprised a nurse holding a .357 mag. She walked three rounds from his belly-button to his head as he was falling. She damn sure wasn't a thug and she didn't "throw down" her piece. She had simply made up her mind that, legal or not, she was not going to become a victim.

[cheygriz]

In my experience, the greatest number of "unauthorized" citizens carryng before we got "shall issue" CCW were women.

Firsrt, the police would generally cut them a little slack, if the circumstances warrant it. I have arrested "hooker types" with an illegal gun, but I looked the other way several times with folks like petite little legal secretaries, or convenience store workers that had to work late, or work night shifts.

I am a 100 percent believer in obeying the law! But there are times, when certain people have good reasons to......... Hell, let's not go there!

[CraigJS]

Your right I do assume alot.
I assume that they need to get their permit with proper training.
I assume that if caught they may or may not be charged with carrying without a permit.
I assume that they either are some how ashamed that they "have a gun" and don't want it known. (family, friends, whoever)
I assume that if they do use the gun they will be in more trouble legally, and civillie (sp old age moment).
I assume that they think that just by being armed they will be safe.
I assume that if the anti gun faction sees a shooting by an unpermitted person (F/M), used properly or not, will be used to hurt ALL gun owners, not just the permitted ones..
I assume that if there are enough people wanting permits, they can get them or change the laws so that they can get them.
I know a gun used in defence doesn't end all problems, it just changes the problems that we need to face. Legally, physically, mentally or morally.
Yes I do assume alot..
I'm off my soap box, as always,
be safe.

[Edward429451]

Well said cheygriz.

I know I could get my permit. I have no criminal record, just that lead foot of mine but isn't criminal. I want to do the right thing and be lawful...but there's doing the right thing and then there's doing the right thing.

I read that packet. It is a contract, requires a signature. My understanding is that if there was a law, they wouldn't require a signature. So it's a contract that must be entered into voluntarily. I take contracts very seriously.

Contracts which amend natural rights disturb me. I would be voluntarily agreeing to this amendment of my rights and would have to ethically adhere to the terms. Thats just honesty & good business sense. I do not need a contract to carry a gun and not act like a punk, I've been doing that for 23 years now.

Plus there is the vigilance thing, America? Are we not charged from days of yore, to help, defend, and not abuse our fellow man/citizenry? The NAP and social mores do not get outdated my friends. If I sign away my rights, am I not part of the problem of why our rights are slowly going away? No single raindrop feels responsible for the flood, no snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche, and yet...they are.

[Mannlicher]

The great State of Florida did not 'grant the right' to carry to it's Citizens until 1987. By then, I had been carrying something daily for about 25 years. I knew many people that followed that same path.
I went 'legal' as soon as the CCW law was passed, but I still know a lot of folks that carry without the benefit of State sanction.

[BlueTrain]

Here's a twist on the situation. I live in Fairfax County, Virginia, just outside Washington, D.C. Back a few years ago when the "shall issue" law apparently became effective and more people began applying for a carry license, some local paper took it upon themselves to publish the names of those applying for licenses. Under those circumstances, probably more than a few thought twice about doing it.

I don't have a license and do not carry a gun (like Jeff Cooper, I stay out of dangerous places) but that is the most unreasonable, inconsiderate thing I can think of at the moment. It would be like publishing how you voted in the last election.

[lockedcj7]

The Communist (I mean Commercial) Appeal in Memphis did the same thing. They hide behind the 1st Amendment and FOI but they'll take every opportunity to attack the 2A.

[OBIWAN]

In many places carrying without a CCW is merely a misdemeanor

So I can see some folks deciding that they were willing to "risk it"

Were those same folks suddenly required to use the weapon they might suddenly wish they had bothered with the paperwork

[Ct.]

like Jeff Cooper, I stay out of dangerous places
Dangerous people are not confined within the area of "dangerous places". So if you leave your home you are now in a potentially hostile environment. Schools are meant to be safe places, but they aren't as deranged loonies with guns show us time and time again they go in and shoot up a safe place.

Just because you avoid the most dangerous places doesn't mean you aren't in one. Just something to think about

[BlueTrain]

The Jeff Cooper comment came from a magazine article in which various gunwriters were asked about their favorite hideout weapon or something like that. Mr. Cooper refused to give one because he stayed out of dangerous places like bars and so on. I stay out of bars myself, I'm not in retail sales and my coming and going is pretty much confined to going to work everyday, accompanied by hundreds of my closest friends.

I believe we are led to believe the world (our world, that is) is made to seem to be a very dangerous place because for one reason, CNN and other news stations spend all their time talking about some relatively isolated incident that took place two thousand miles away and for another, some peoples or groups agendas are advanced when the world is made to seem more dangerous. Not necessarily more dangerous than it really is, just more dangerous. In other words, it sells and lots of people have things to sell you.

I also base my thinking on my own experiences, as no doubt you all do. I am confined, as someone said, by the narrowness of my own experience. But you also make your own experiences, in a way. There are lots of comments here about awareness, yet there are also many stories of things happening to people. So far, knock on wood, little has happened to me but I'm doing my best to fly under the radar. Still, there is a first time for everything. I had lived in my present house for 18 years before someone through no fault of their own, no doubt, drove through my neighbors yard, demolished my old Ford station wagon that had 199,000 miles on it and wound up on her roof. It ruined my evening but I met all of my neighbors that night and was impressed by the response of the local fire and police departments.

I realize it is a dangerous world and that anything can happen at any time. After all, I have insurance on the house and the car and have used it for both. But, ironically, many places I go do not allow guns and even the range has a sign that says no loaded guns on the premises off the firing line.

Maybe sometime I'll let you know about the things I do that are really risky.

[BlueTrain]

Here is something of a relative nature. If you think I'm running around the countryside taking all sorts of risks, which I may well be, trusting only in Divine Providence, then consider my wife's cousin.

One of my wife's cousins is a free-lance journalist. He has lived overseas for most of the past 25 years. He has lived in Bankok, Moscow, Pristina (Kosovo), Cairo (Egypt, not Illinois) and sundry other interesting places. In fact, he married a Serb but the family could use some fresh blood. My son once asked him if he carried a gun and he just laughed. He was with the invading army going into Iraq but got kicked out because of a slip of the lip. At the moment he is in Afganistan, about which he has had a book published. So he's been around and, well, he's still around. In Iraq and Afganistan he generally travelled with a guide but he has still been through the experience of being held up. The whole family kind of thinks he is living on borrowed time.

Now, tell me again how dangerous a life I am living.

[Mikeyboy]

Here's a twist on the situation. I live in Fairfax County, Virginia, just outside Washington, D.C. Back a few years ago when the "shall issue" law apparently became effective and more people began applying for a carry license, some local paper took it upon themselves to publish the names of those applying for licenses. Under those circumstances, probably more than a few thought twice about doing it.

I don't have a license and do not carry a gun (like Jeff Cooper, I stay out of dangerous places) but that is the most unreasonable, inconsiderate thing I can think of at the moment. It would be like publishing how you voted in the last election.

That is Horrible. The best candidate for a CW permit is a guy/gal who just wants to carry for protection. They are not on a power trip, they are not going to be waiving it around, the want to keep it private, and decrete. These are the SAME people who would think twice about applying for a permit because their name will be in the paper if they do apply.

Thank God in PA we don't have that problem, honestly, I don't carry 24/7 and at one time I considered letting it lapse. Then one of the Philadelphia Eagles Coach's kids got arrested for brandishing a weapon during a "Road Rage" incident. The funny thing was he was found with pills, small amounts of cocaine and marijuana, and drug paraphernalia. He was charged with simple assault and making terroristic threats, but guess what the biggest offense was???? The felony charge of carrying a firearm without a license.

Felony conviction for me in PA=No more buying or possessing firearms. Thankfully my state has an easy CCW procedure. Those who live in less CCW friendly places need to organize, write letters and vote for pro ccw candidates, and not be forced to break the law. All you need is to accidently print, expose or drop your weapon at the worse possible time, and suddenly you can't carry, buy or own firearms legally anymore:mad:

[junglebob]

Bluetrain, You ever been to Cairo Illinois? Your wifes cousin may be safer in Cairo Egypt.

It would be interesting to know how many people 'shadow carry' in Illinois. If Cook county would just become its own state Illinois would probably have concealed carry legislation the same year.

More and more all the time are "fanny packing" in Illinois, which is legal but still subjects you to the possibility of being arrested. This requires a FOID card (firearm owners ID), but you are required to have this anyway to own a gun or buy ammunition. The definition of fanny packing is carrying a handgun in a fanny pack or case unloaded with a loaded magazine in the pack or case. The so called "six seconds from safety option", not near as good as regular concealed carry, but better than leaving it at home. www.gunssavelife.com (the Champaign County Rifle Association site) has more info if you click on "about us".

I'd be curious if any other state has such a provision.

I do have a non-resident Pa handgun license, so I do regular concealed carry legally in gun friendly neighboring states.

[BlueTrain]

I've never been to Cairo ("Karo"), Illinois, but I've been to Oklahoma.

[BillCA]

BlueTrain,

I understand your meaning, I think. I live in the tenth largest U.S. city which is one of the safer large cities for its size. Many factors account for this, but it is far from being safe from crime. I've been burglarized and a local liquor store owner shot during a robbery 1/2 block away.

Now that a large apartment complex nearby has a considerable section-8 housing population, I can see a rise in some crime and significantly more police presence in the last few years.

I avoid many "dangerous" places associated with crime - bars, night clubs, gambling parlors, strip joints, known bad neighborhoods and so forth. But it only takes one incident to remind you that violent people can show up anywhere.

Eight years ago, my ex-girlfriend was in a bank when three men stormed in, fired into the ceiling and announced a hold-up. They knew what they were doing, did it quickly, efficiently and violently. Time on site was under 2 minutes. And this occurred in a "nice" neighborhood with about 12 staff and 30 customers in the bank.

A couple of years ago a man drove up to a local gas station, knifed a man who was pumping gas, then filled his own tank, replaced the nozzle in the victim's tank and drove off. Pretty damn cold. The clerk inside was doing paperwork and never saw a thing.

The point is that violent people can bring violence into an otherwise nice neighborhood at any time.

[BlueTrain]

I certainly appreciate the fact that crime can happen anytime and anywhere, though in most places the possibility of being involved are smaller than witnessing a traffic accident, though plenty of people are killed and injured in traffic accidents. But how many have you seen in the last 40 years, much less been involved in?

Around here, which is the suburbs of Washington, D.C., there are sometimes rashes of bank robberies. It seems that someone will attempt (and usually succeed) at hitting several in quick succession. The fact that the state lines aren't far away, plus the presence of the subway, makes a clean getaway that much easier. But sooner or later they usually get caught and note that in the other thread about the FBI report, all the data was based on bad guys that did not get away. Only corporate executivies can make crime pay.

I have heard that most murder victims know their killers, which is a neutral comment about having a gun handy. But it makes you wonder about the people you might know. But I've only known one murder victim myself and there was a love triangle situation.

Plenty of people shoot back, too, and without any severe consequences half the time. A few years ago, perhaps as many as ten years, a store owner in Mongomery County, Maryland, was held up but he pulled his own gun, chased the man out of the store and killed him after the man had entered a car. The store owner was armed with a Beretta .380. And some of you laugh at 9mm.

[David Armstrong]

Schools are meant to be safe places, but they aren't as deranged loonies with guns show us time and time again they go in and shoot up a safe place.
That is the problem with perception, it frequently has no relationship to reality. Schools are one of the safest places in America, in spite of the hype. Blue Train hits it right when he says, "I certainly appreciate the fact that crime can happen anytime and anywhere, though in most places the possibility of being involved are smaller than witnessing a traffic accident, though plenty of people are killed and injured in traffic accidents." When you look at violent crime, it is very restricted in terms of geography. Even in "high crime" areas it is actually fairly rare, and outside of those areas it is almost non-existent.

[bclark1]

i've known a couple women who carry in chicago. never knew any guys. glad i'm out of there now.

[njtrigger]

The police cannot search your car just because they pulled you over for a minor traffic violation anymore.

If the police ask to search your vehicle (or anything for that matter), the answer is always "no". Even if they threaten you or speak in a very firm manner, the answer is always "no".

[David Armstrong]

The police cannot search your car just because they pulled you over for a minor traffic violation anymore.
The police could never search your car just because they pulled you over for a minor traffic violation. The police always could, and still can, search your car after a minor traffic violation if certain evidentiary/legal standards are met.

[Jim Keenan]

I have said this before and will say it again. Those who feel the need to carry a gun will do so, law or no law. Whether those people are otherwise honest citizens or Mafia hit men makes no difference. (Of course in NY, NJ and some other places, I am told Mafia guys are automatically given a CCW license, but that might not be true.)

Jim

[mikejonestkd]

Jim Keenan,

>>Of course in NY, NJ and some other places, I am told Mafia guys are automatically given a CCW license,<<<

yes we are....how did you find out about it? What's your address? :) My 'friends ' Tony and Moose would like to come pay you a little visit....

:D

I agree for the most part that people will do what they have to do to protect themselves, legally or not.

[revjen45]

"The police could never search your car just because they pulled you over for a minor traffic violation. The police always could, and still can, search your car after a minor traffic violation if certain evidentiary/legal standards are met."

The police can do anything they want. Try to prove they're lying. It's your word against theirs, and they have a lot of practice.

[David Armstrong]

The police can do anything they want.
Not really.
Try to prove they're lying.
The evidence is usually pretty probitive. Police have been shown to be lying in some cases, but usually they aren't. There is rarely any real reason for them to do so.
It's your word against theirs, and they have a lot of practice.

Actually there is more to it than that in most instances. As for practice, I'd suggest the typical citizen has had a lot more experience lying to the police than the police have had lying to the citizen.

[BillCA]

...though in most places the possibility of being involved are smaller than witnessing a traffic accident,

This may be true, however the risks and stakes are much higher if you're the victim of a violent crime. At least cars have seat belts, crumple zones and air-bags.

I have heard that most murder victims know their killers, which is a neutral comment about having a gun handy. But it makes you wonder about the people you might know. But I've only known one murder victim myself and there was a love triangle situation.

This is a somewhat misleading statistic. "Known" to the victim can mean a lot of things and include a lot of circumstances most of us wouldn't consider credible. For instance, a drug user making a buy from a drug dealer, even though they're meeting for the first time. The guy who sticks up a liquor store and the clerk says "yeah, I think I seen him in here before."

In general, the homicide victim has some connection with the killer. It may be a robbery, rape, burglary, jealous (ex) of someone, a neighbor or coworker with a grudge, etc. That's why the Zodiac murders were so difficult to stop -- they were random so there was no connection to the killer.

The police could never search your car just because they pulled you over for a minor traffic violation. The police always could, and still can, search your car after a minor traffic violation if certain evidentiary/legal standards are met.

David, you're correct, though those standards are called "probable cause". And it is not unlimited. As our local cops found, stopping someone and seeing legally purchased items does not automatically give PC to search. For instance, seeing a plastic bag with four boxes of Super-X shotgun shells does not (of itself) automatically allow for searching the vehicle. Nor does nervousness on the driver's part when asked about them. Nor can a search for a shotgun include looking in the console or a small glove box.

[NukeCop]

Nor does nervousness on the driver's part when asked about them. Nor can a search for a shotgun include looking in the console or a small glove box.


Not sure if it's a wide spread term, but we often refer to that as a "fishing expedition"....

[BillCA]

+1 NukeCop

[David Armstrong]

Not sure if it's a wide spread term, but we often refer to that as a "fishing expedition"....
We refer to it as "you can't find an elephant in a matchbox."

[Edward429451]

Fishing expedition and the ubiquitous 'odor of marijuana' is built in probable cause and irrefutable.

[BillCA]

Fishing expedition and the ubiquitous 'odor of marijuana' is built in probable cause and irrefutable.

It certainly is refutable - in court.

I can bring forth at least 5 witnesses who can testify to not only a lack of drug usage but to my attitude about being around those who do - even to the point of bodily throwing a person out of my home within 30 seconds of discovering their possession. *

Not only that, but the officer will likely be required to articulate every odor he noticed before and during contact. Did he detect tobacco odor (much more likely)? Did he detect the odor of hot vehicle fluids? How about antifreeze? (My vehicle emits that odor too). Was he sure it wasn't a cologne mixed with tobacco smoke?

I've discussed this whole thing with people who know me well -- well enough to know I don't use -- and what to do IF some case is built that cops detected an "odor" or found some small amount of drugs.

* I require no one use or possess illegal drugs in my home, car, etc. Mostly because I don't want legal hassles.

[FrankyCorleone]

I'm young, I drive a 60,000 dollar car. I dress like a 'gangsta'. I tend to get pulled over and searched alot. I once got pulled over for having a suspicious looking vehicle, but then he quickly said I was swerving a bit.

Cops are always trying to find drugs or something. If I get pulled over for my seatbelt, they stick their head damn near in the car, trying to smell for something. I can't stand it. Typically it's a state trooper.

I almost was car jacked one time, and obviously CCW in maryland isn't much of a option. But I won't carry, simply because I'm constantly being pulled over
.

I understand my car is a attention getter but, get attention from the bad and the good alike.

I need to get a Honda apparently.

Gas prices are getting bad anyway.

[BillCA]

Franky,

How you dress and what you drive is your choice. But remember the old adage -- if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and hangs around with other ducks... driving a lo-rider or expensive set of wheels while wearing baggy clothes and playing loud rap music makes it easier to make presumptions.

While it may be the "in" thing with young folks to dress "gangsta", remember it is this same group (young males up to age 25-30) that are typically involved in crime and cops tend to paint with a broad brush. In my day it was long hair, untucked (often tie-dyed) shirts and Birkenstocks. A number of us were always getting "hassled by the fuzz". My lesson came when I cut my hair and started wearing slacks instead of jeans. Same car, same music, different look -- and far fewer hassles. Even the few I had were much shorter and the cops a bit nicer.

[BanginMusket]

I think you should always abide the law. It is for your own protection too. Carrying a gun is a big responsibility.

__________________
Musket Cap Nipple (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/midwayusa-inc-1854/blackpowder-guns-accessories-7633.html) - Download the Blackpowder Guns & Accessories Catalog by MidwayUSA, Inc

[Lee Lapin]

Before NC started issuing carry permits, my wife worked with a group who taught women to safely use firearms for protection at home. She stopped when it became clear that many of the women going through the program intended to carry illegally.

Carry without a permit is still a misdemeanor in NC...

lpl/nc

[Don Gwinn]

I think it's fairly common in Illinois. I would say there are a LOT more people carrying illegally in Illinois than there are people calling their representatives about getting CCW legalized.

[CALNRA]

the women who wanted the training did so because in the vast majority of the 54 counties in California, self-defense is not a good enough reason for a CCW for an average citizen without serious connections.

The problem is not them, but the police(or rather, the police chiefs who make individual policies in his/her jurisdiction). simple as that.:mad:

[BillCA]

+1 CALNRA,

California is a "may issue" state that gives CLEOs wide discretion in who gets a permit. In many jurisdictions you have to be "connected" to the CLEO in some way (i.e. reserve officer, major campaign contributor, business owner, etc.) to even be considered. Some CLEOs, such as former SJPD chief Robert MacNamara refused to issue any permits at all. Zero, zilch, nada.

Recently a California appellate court ruled that refusing to issue permits at all is a violation of state law -- "refusal to issue is not the same as exercising discretion" -- and agencies are now supposed to accept applications.

In California, the issuance rate is far below 2% of the population (actually, it's closer to 0.2%) and a majority of those are for reserve police officers, security/protection agents and the like.

[Duxman]

Like everything in life - as long as you are prepared for the consequences of your actions - before you act on them - go ahead and do it.

Thank goodness I live in Virginia where getting a permit is not that difficult - as long as you are not a criminal. So its easy to follow the law.

But for those of us who are not so lucky to live in a shall issues state: Consequence of being caught with an illegal CC weapon - jail time, loss of your current weapons, and future buying.

Consequence of getting killed because you did not carry a weapon but needed it: DEATH.

You decide.

[AirForceShooter]

Remember a little while back some guy in New York City tried to start a rally for people that carried without a CCW?
The last estimate I heard was there are 500,000 people CCWing in NYC without authorization.
Common isn't the word.
I'm so glad I'm in Florida and legal now.

AFS