Ok, now I have my 870. Ammo?

[M.H. Ezzard]

I am totally new to shotguns. 13 years ago I was totally new to handguns. I started by asking questions.
I intend for my 15 year-old son to learn along with me on this 870 Police Magnum. I bought some Win. reduced recoil 00 9 pellets, 2 3/4 shells. Is this good for learning? I saw some #7 1/2 and some #6 as well as slugs etc.
I need tutors to instruct me on the best target ammo as well as home defense and slug ammo. I figured TFL would be my best bet. Thanks.

[rantingredneck]

Welcome to the wonderful world of shotguns.

For "target practice" and general familiarizing yourself with your new shotgun you can use light game loads in 7.5 or 8. That will save you some cash and some recoil and allow you to generally learn how it handles and shoots.

For HD purposes you'll definitely want buckshot. I use 00 reduced recoil Remington but I'm sure the loads you have are comparable. Some prefer 000, some prefer number 1 or number 4. I won't go into that discussion here, but you'll find plenty of it in the archives if you search. You'll want to shoot enough buckshot to learn how it recoils and to practice follow up shots. You'll also want to know how it patterns at typical HD ranges. The photo below is a typical 7 yard pattern from 00 buck reduced recoil. The large hole to the lower left is where the wad hit the target. That is with a 20 Inch IC barrel.

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Rem870.2.JPG

Below is a slug target at 25 yds. Slugs are less than ideal for most HD situations but they definitely have "Stopping Power" if you need it. I keep my 7 shot tube loaded with 5 buckshot followed by 2 slugs.

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Rem870.1.JPG

As with any gun you'll want to buy several ammo types and practice practice practice. And HAVE FUN! :)

[WeedWacker]

Remember that HD is probably not going to be more than 25 FEET let alone 25 yards. Unless you take it outside or have really long hallways. Slugs also tend to penetrate farther than buck does so it will probably be a good idea just to stick with shot if you are woried about certain treasures in adjacent rooms. I know that when I own my own home I will be using a 20 ga 870 with buck in a modified choke as my HD shotgun. Youth model from my early hunting days so it'll be easier to maneuver in tight spaces.

[Jseime]

Given that there is a pretty good chance that your home will never be invaded by a burglar aliens or even communists I would focus mainly on target shooting. Not that you shouldnt have a few rounds of buckshot on hand just in case but theres a low probability.

For target shooting I use federal Top Gun target loads, 1 1/8 oz. #7 1/2 shot and 1145 fps. they are pretty gentle on the shoulder and work well on clays and small game. Muskrats have been my recent target of choice and with a full choke they dont get away.

[Servo77]

I highly recommend trying the Hornady tap buckshot. It patterns well and is reduced recoil to boot.

[parrothead2581]

Federal 00 buck with Flitecontrol wad. Tight patterns at 25 yards. Good stuff.

[waterhouse]

Stay away from the cheap Winchester birdshot/target stuff that walmart sells. Other than that, feed it anything you like.

[M.H. Ezzard]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am learning a lot here.

[parrothead2581]

Check here, if you're interested: http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=120_205 25 rnds for $14.95 isn't too shabby.

However, I'm thinking what really want is this: http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=120_209&products_id=397

Have fun!

[Jseime]

Do you think that maybe birdshot would be a better HD round than buck in the first place?

It would look better in court- all i had were these target loads so i had to use them
Short distances-tight patterns anyway
Ouch factor- 1 1/8 ounces of #7 1/2 shot at 1145 fps hitting you in the chest...i think ill be going now...if im still alive.

[Double Naught Spy]

It would look better in court- all i had were these target loads so i had to use them

There is no proof that shot size will affect the outcome in court. If you want a home defense gun, then load the gun with a solid home defense round like buckshot. You handle the bad guy and let your lawyer handle the courts. It is poor self preservation logic to pick an inferior round for self defense because you believe that it might somehow be better for you in court.

You have to survive to go to court, assuming you end up going to court.

[Bill DeShivs]

I fail to comprehend why many of you feel that if you shoot an invader in your own home, that the courts would even be involved.
Unless you live in California or another socialist state.....

[sm]

Get a copy of -
Shotgunning : The Art and Science - Bob Brister

Stay away from-
Winchester Promo Value pack loads, out of spec, and the reason for more headaches at training places, clay fields and in dove fields.
Winchester reduced recoil - that plastic ball will ricochet back toward shooter.

If the shoot is good - the shoot is good.

I use slugs, either the old full house lead or Brenneke.
I use nothing but 2 3/4 ' shells. For serious situation.

Gun fit, correct basic fundamentals, lessons , pattern board, and BA/UU/R is what makes the difference in a shotgunner, and someone that just happens to own a shotgun.

[RsqVet]

Bird shot is ill advised for slef defense for the same reasons that folks don't like glasser slugs or 100 gr 357 loads at mega FPS... you can have a load that blows all of it's energy very superfically, has no penetration and might just tear up the jacket of the BG and give them a heck of a fleash wound but not actually stop them. What effect a mega flesh wound will have is unknown, maybe it will send the neighborhood delinquint packing but it may not touch the hoped up tweaker... most of us have a 12ga for a reason... worst case scnario and / or "best" stopping power... loading with bird shot is defeating this goal.

Fleash wounds are not why we shoot people, we shoot to stop and to do that you need penetration to hit CNS or blood containing structures and produce exsangunation.

[sm]

Well , personally I put in enough trigger time and all, I don't care.
Gimme a gun, some ammunition, and if I can see it, I will fell it.

Besides-
I will not be at your gunfight - Awerbuck

I shared this with Dave Mc.

I take a Skeet Gun and pattern at 21 yards using Skeet loads.
Then I shoot low 7.
Hint : I shoot this bird really fast, and I do so from low gun. It ain't out very far at all.
Students "mark" the distance and again shoot that same load at the distance I busted the bird.
Totally blows their mind as to how small a pattern I hit that bird with.

Now on a safe range and all that...I break low 7 using slugs.
Gun fit, correct basic fundamental of mounting gun to face all are made even more aware.

Did I mention I most often do this with a shotgun with NO beads, no sights, nada?

Did I ever mention the organ harvest we did on the person shot with a single shot .410 with a 2 1/2" bird load...

Like I said, I will take care of my gunfight...y'all won't be around.
You were not there the last time someone pointed a gun at me and pulled the trigger...

[TheShootist1894]

First off you need to realize that anything hotter than 6-7 hot will penetrate walls and exit the other side, assuming 5/8" drywall on both sides, Be careful, family, friends and possesions are on the other side of that wall
With cyl bore and light target loads any theif even with body armor, hot lead shot tho the arms crotch and face will deter the most determined of burglers

I have a S&W 28-2 Highway Patrolman .357 Mag at my bedside, First three are snake shot, not a pleasent surprise in the middle of the night, the last three are light JHP loads

Lethal force is not something to play around with

[Jseime]

With cyl bore and light target loads any theif even with body armor, hot lead shot tho the arms crotch and face will deter the most determined of burglers.

Thats kind of what I thought. We have a fairly open house with some longer spaces and whatnot and even at 20 or so feet which is likely as long a shot as you would be looking at in a HD situation if someone shot me with a target load of #7.5 shot at 1145 FPS i would either be A-dead or B-on the floor in a serious amount of pain not looking for more trouble than i had just gotten into. I have been killing muskrate effectively at 25 or so yards with Federal Top Gun target loads lately and i would think that if it works on them at 20 yards itll work on people at 20 feet or less.

Buckshot is intended to stop end of story but if you miss and your kids are in the next room that buckshot will be flying around in there too.

[DonR101395]

To each his own. Any and all training I've received, anyone I've talked with who does ballistic testing has said to stay away from bird shot unless you're shooting birds. They have all recommended one of four loads for varied usages. 9 pellet 00 buckshot, 8 pellet 00 buckshot, #1 buckshot, #4 buckshot. My kids have all moved out, but when they were home they were instructed to stay in their rooms; unless me or their mother brought them to our room. Our bedroom was at the end of the hall with the door looking directly down the hall. Their doors were the two doors on the right. The hallway is narrow enough that it's impossible to swing an 18" barrel and get more than a glancing blow down the length of the wall and pentetration into the bedrooms is less than likely. I chose #1 buckshot based on increased pellets and no worry of it leaving the exterior of the house. I could shoot slugs from the bedroom door and they would remain in the house; unless they could penetrate 4 walls with a brick exterior while also passing through one fulling loaded refrigerator and one fully loaded upright freezer. For me my house is a gem to protect from the "safe room" I didn't design it like this, but I could kiss the guy who did.

[Avenger29]

No Birdshot for HD. It just does not penetrate the BG enough to do the job. If you open up a birdshot shell, #8 shot is quite small.

You wouldn't use birdshot on a deer, now would you?

Any round or load with enough power to get the job done reliably will have overpenetration. See http://www.theboxotruth.com

In the area that I am in, there was a case of a guy who had someone breaking into his house. He grabbed a SG loaded with birdshot and put a round into the intruder, then chased the intruder into his backyard and up the street, emptying the magazine into the intruder (not quite legal, I know, but that is beside the point). All rounds of birdshot hit (about 4-5 in total, IIRC), and the intruder lived. One round of buckshot would probably have taken care of the intruder.

[rantingredneck]

My house seems to be set up much like Don's above. I have two kids at home. Both of their rooms open off the right side of the hallway I would be shooting down if a BG comes through either the front or back doors.

Here's something else to think about when it comes to overpenetration: I worry more about the BG's bullets than mine. I know where my kids are and know where not to shoot. He could care less. PUT HIM DOWN HARD AND FAST AND KEEP HIM FROM SHOOTING! Sorry to "shout" but that's a very important consideration for me. 00 buck for me, though I'd still feel ok about number 1 or number 4 buck. Small game loads are for just that. People are not small game.

I took my 870 to the range yesterday for some slug practice at 100yds. (for hunting not HD!) Managed a 5 inch 5 shot group with smoothbored rifle sighted barrel with standard Federal 2.75" rifled slugs. I was pleased :). My shoulder wasn't :(.

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

Here's something else to think about when it comes to overpenetration: I worry more about the BG's bullets than mine. I know where my kids are and know where not to shoot. He could care less. PUT HIM DOWN HARD AND FAST AND KEEP HIM FROM SHOOTING! Sorry to "shout" but that's a very important consideration for me. 00 buck for me, though I'd still feel ok about number 1 or number 4 buck. Small game loads are for just that. People are not small game.


Well said. My thoughts exactly.

[Manedwolf]

Except that for apartment dwellers, 00 buck would be irresponsible, since you have no way of knowing where your neighbors are on the other side of that wall. There could be a baby's crib right where your overpenetrating shot busts through the drywall...you don't know.

I wouldn't use more than #4 in a modern apartment building, myself. Too much danger to neighbors.

Oh, and for an 870, the only ammo I can say definitively not to use are those little Aguila mini-shells. They won't cycle properly in mine or anyone else's 870 that I've heard from.

[rain252]

Wonder how many pellets/bb's are in #4 (1-3/8 oz) winchester super pheasant load.
What about #4 buck shot.

[Double Naught Spy]

With cyl bore and light target loads any theif even with body armor, hot lead shot tho the arms crotch and face will deter the most determined of burglers

This is a really interesting thought. You have a gun able to do a lot of things, but want to shoot light target loads that still do a lot of stinging and convince the bad guy that he doesn't want to be there. Of course, this assumes the bad guy is of the right might to comprehend that the stinging sensation to those parts is because he has been shot, something folks hopped up on various drugs and/or adrenaline often fail to comprehend. It also assumes that once comprehending what has happened that the decision will be made to discontinue said activity. Once again, this type of mental capability isn't always available to those hopped up on drugs or adrenaline.

I like it better when the decision is made for the bad guy via physical damage to his person such that he can no longer continue the fight. Somehow counting on bird shot peppering various parts doesn't seem to be a good way to accomplish this.

[Avenger29]

#4 Buck is good to go for HD. Some people like it. I have not had a chance to try it, as it is pretty much unavailable around here. It is hard to find much more than Remington and Winchester buck and slugs around here, too.

You had better make sure your shots count. It would be the same with any HD weapon.

[workinwifdakids]

To each his own, but I've settled one two items.

I have Winchester Super-X 2 3/4" 00-Buckshot (9 pellets, unplated) for HD. For practice, I use the 100-round value pack of 7 1/2 in the blue box, running about $15 for the 100-round box at Wally World.

Again, to each his own, but this is what I've settled on.

[bcarver]

To: Rain
Shot count for 1 ounce of number four in lead is 135.
Go to www.nitrocompany.com and they list all shot and weight combinations.

[Death from Afar]

MH- shotguns are a hoot, and it is great that your boy is getting into them too.

The best ammo for general blasting is cheap trap ammo. Its great to get used to the gun, break it in, and generally turn money into noise. YOur Remmy may not like some low brass loads ( that is, a quite small brass case head) but that is rare. The good thing is that with less recoil, you wont get a flinch, and you will get used to the gun. Several combat shot gun courses I have done have used this ammo for practice.

If you want the gun for home defnce, the most importnat thing is pattern it. Set up targets with the load you intent to use- and several you dont- and fire at center of mass at about every three metres up to 25 or so metres. Not e how the shot patterns on the target, then compare brands of ammo. You will get an idea of how the weapon will preform at cetrain ranges, which is vital. Hope that helps.

[M.H. Ezzard]

Thank you for the input. I really appreciate it. DFA, my brother married a woman from Christchurch, NZ. She is about the size of a hobbit and in very good shape. She is a masseuse and she is great. Lucky brother!

[Death from Afar]

Hmm, small world! Well, if she is ever back here, I am sure you can tag along and we can go and fire guns at things!