12 Gauge Mystique?

[roy reali]

Why is it that many shooters feel that shotguns in 12 gauge posses super powers? I do realize that the smaller gauges just do not have the ability to launch the payload of a 12, but many seem to think that the smaller gauges are useless.

So, what magical properties do 12 gauges have that 20's and 28's don't?

[omegapd]

I don't know. I use a 16ga for just about everything...:D

[sm]

Americans are hung up on "bigger is better".

The British come up with a 11/16 oz loading in 12 bore as being not only a great payload-to-bore ratio, it also figures into the "Rule of 96" : Six pound shotgun [96 oz] firing a 1oz load with recoil management and quick effective follow up shot. [not plural].

Brister shared - "A matter of bore - not choke".
Stan Baker , inventor of Stan Baker Bore Diameter Tool,friend of Brister and many others on various shores have put a lot of time and research into shotgunning.

British also considered a 1 1/8 oz load a "heavy load" and 1 1/4 oz load a "magnum load".

Silly Americans were deforming pellets, blowing patterns while putting up with more felt recoil. :)

Modern advances in powders, wads , hulls , shot, buffering, and such have "altered" some of this Art & Science.
The principles still apply.
Does not matter if one uses a No. 2 pencil or the calculator on a computer - 2+2 = 4.

Regulation Skeet targets fly at about 55 mph. One is allowed to "pre-mount" the shotgun. Back in my day, 1 1/8 oz loads were THE loads most often used.

Int'l skeet targets are faster ~ 65mph , and one has to shoot from low gun position, and the payload cannot be more than 24 grains. [about 7/8 oz]

Oh I know Migratory Hunting regs stirred a bunch of headaches and trouble when non-toxic shot was mandated.
I personally think this is still a bunch of hogwash, as I read some of the old original reports, testing and evaluations.

Folks that knew how to shoot, and knew how to use a pattern board, faired well with the "mandate".
As soon as something else other than steel was "approved" , I and others went to Bismuth. Simply because of payload to bore, pattern denisty, and all.
I only use 2 3/4 shells in 12 bore, all I have every used. Felled my share of Geese and Ducks. Steel or Bismuth.

Folks do not investigate, test and evaluate for themselves.
Many simply want to be matriculated into a group, and so by parroting what the group says, they hope to gain acceptance.

Art & Science as Brister calls Shotgunning , is well put.

28 gauge.
It truly is more effective than it is supposed to be. For one, it has the shortest shot string, therefore it hits harder as more pellets arrive on target at the same time.

Take a 12 bore, with 1 1/4 oz load, and if one has not T&E'd their fixed choked barrel, or screw in choke, that load slamming the forcing cone with the force akin to a grenade going off , is going to /may deform pellets, meaning not only a less dense pattern, but a longer shot string.
Takes a long time for pellets to arrive, and on moving targets this is important.
Target literally has "holes" they can fly or run through.

See most folks just stop at shooting a pattern board. This is only part of the Art & Science

Garden hose is a great way to see this.
Spray a moving object, like a dragonfly, or a ball tossed out. Hit the trigger sprayer.
Note how long it took the spray to reach target, and how the water did not all arrive at the same time?
Notice the lead?

Brister shot moving targets.

I have as well. Interesting to see a 3" shell of a buckshot loading with more pellets have a longer shot string and miss a moving target the size of a torso.
2 3/4" shell, on the other hand, had a shorter shot string, and the torso had quality effective hits.


Bigger is not always better...often times ...

Less is more.

[Mike Irwin]

Super powered?

No.

Versatile as hell on the North American continent?

Yes.

[roy reali]

I agree with you that a 12 is a bit more versatile then any of the smaller gauges. But some folks liken the comparison of a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge to that of a .30-06 and a .22 rimfire. The comparison should be more like a .30-06 and a .300 Savage or maybe a .30-30.

The real difference is mainly with slugs. The 12 can launch a bigger object, thus has more oomph! But with bird shot the differences are not that much. I have seen reloading guides for shot shells. They all list velocities that are obtained with various loads. All the gauges list the exact same velocities. A number eight pellet doens't go any faster in a 12 gauge versus a 20 or even a .410 for that matter.

I have hunted birds along side many others. The ones that use the smaller gauges have always been the best wing shots I have witnessed.

[KALIFORNIST]

I go with the 12 due to the vast amounts of different kinds of ammo and availability,also its very hard to beat a 12 gauge loaded with #1 buck or low recoil 00 in a 2 3/4 shell when it comes to self defense.That said I have always like 20 gauge and would buy more if ammo was the same.

[sm]

Often times a firearm is toted more than shot.

Now there is a difference in shooting clay games with a 8 1/2 pound shotgun to lessen felt recoil over 4 boxes [100 rds] for say a skeet tourney , maybe even two events on the same day , such as 12 and 20 ga therefore meaning 8 boxes [200 rds] plus any practice shots, or shoot offs - and -

Toting for distance, taking two shots, walking some more , taking two more.
Toting to and from a deer stand where one might not take a shot at all.

Add age, arthritis, physical limitations due to injury or accident , such as a Clay shooter that for 10 years shot 30,000 rds a year and detached a retina.
Doctors orders to NOT shoot at all, and restricted to recoil to a .410 when allowed to shoot again, and then finally a 28 gauge.

This lady/gent can more easily tote, and shoot a 28 gauge and be able to participate in skeet, short course 5 Stand/ Sporting Clays, Trap, dove, quail (bird hunt) small game and ...use 28 ga slugs to take larger critters.
.550 is not far off the .54 caliber that has history showing effectiveness in felling targets -be they the enemy, deer, elk ...etc with "roundball" and other "solid projectiles".

Highest scores on a tote board are with the 28 ga.
Less felt recoil, effective short shot string and pattern density.
.410, due to longer shot string, less pattern density is the hardest event for shooters to do well in.

20 gauge is what a lot of the folks I assist with go to. I start with a 28 gauge, getting correct basic fundamentals down pat.
20 gauge allows for them to shoot both 12 and 20 gauge events.
Works for other clay games too.
Easy to tote afield, and effective for most of the game these folks will take from ducks over decoys, deer, doves, quail and even serious situation use.

12 and 20 bore shells are available anywhere.
12 is just more "known" and therefore more load offerings for it than all the others.
20 ga is next.

[dionysusigma]

How much of a difference in effectiveness is there, say, between a 12 gauge and 20 ga, if both are using #1 Buck for HD?

[sm]

#3 buck is the standard buckshot factory loading for 20 gauge.

12 bore offers more buckshot offerings including #1.

Honest, #3 is very good. 2 3/4" shell with 20 pellets

So much depends on each individual shotgun barrel, and constriction. [choke]
Two guns one right after the other off the assembly line, with the same fixed choke, may not like the same loading, applies to screw in chokes as well.

So it is hard to give a honest answer.

I have reloaded #1 buckshot for 20 bore with excellent results for a few guns just messing around and piddling with all this for fun and educational purposes.
Did the same #1 hard buckshot for 28 gauge too...

Pattern can be misleading.

For instance a 12 gauge and .410 , both choked the same and at say 21 yards will throw the same "pattern". Serious!

Difference is number of pellets and "pattern density" plus length of shot string.

[johnbt]

"Why is it that many shooters feel that shotguns in 12 gauge posses super powers?"

I think it's because when many of us were youngsters we just couldn't wait until the day we were old enough and big enough to have an honest to goodness man's gun just like our father and grandfathers - a 12 ga. (And a redhead and a V8 Ford, but that's another story.)

Oh, wait a minute, my father shot a 20 ga. Model 12.

John

[Csspecs]

I for one looked at what shells I could buy, the 12 is the better gun to buy shells for.

When you pay more money for .410 shells than 12 or 20 it is a hard sell.

[jhgreasemonkey]

12 guage shotguns are chosen by the military and police for a reason. I choose the 12 guage not because I think its the only that will work but because it can handle anything from big game w/slugs, home defense, duck and bird hunting. All with one gun. Plus the selection of loads is never ending. 16, 20, and 28's serve a more specialised purpose. They dont cover the full spectrum of uses. Would you hunt bear of elk with your 28 guage? Could I hunt them with my 12 guage loaded with slugs? yes. Could I hunt rabbit and squirel with light field loads and such with a 12 guage? yes.

[roy reali]

I'll concede that for self defense and big game the 12 does have an advantage. However, its advantage over most bird hunting is slight. I admit, my shotgun of choice for most of my hunting is a 12 gauge. My skills are such that I could use those extra few projectiles heading towards the target.

Last season I was dove hunting with a friend. He was using a .28 gauge and I had my 12. I missed several birds which he knocked out of the sky. I guess you can miss with any size shotgun.

[DonR101395]

I guess I'm just traditional. All of my shotguns are 12ga. except one 20ga. And I only own two true hunting rifles a 45-70 and a 30-06.
I don't think the 12 has super powers, but I can load it down below 20ga and up quite a bit above 20ga if I choose. I chose 30-06 for the same versatility.
The 45-70, well you just need to own one to understand them.;)

[jhgreasemonkey]

I agree with you there. :)
I do envy a friend of mine who has one shotgun for each use and they are all high dollar nice ones.

[The Deer Hunter]

Ammo is generally cheaper and easier to find for 12GA. too.

although my 16 break is pretty cool.

[Jseime]

A number 2 shot pellet launched from a 12 Guage has the exact same energy and velocity as a #2 shot pellet launched from a 20 guage it is just that the 12 guage is able to launch more of those #2 pellets at that velocity per shot.

I think people are just concerned with getting more shot into each target. I intend to buy a 20 guage pump or semi one day as a partridge gun but in the mean time ill use an IC or Mod choke in the 12 guage until I have money.

[johnbt]

Shotgun slugs make big holes, and not just the 10 and 12 ga. either.

Shotgun Bore Diameter
10-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .775 inches
12-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .729 inches
16-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .662 inches
20-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .615 inches
28-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .550 inches
67-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .410 inches

Let's see, a 28 ga. has a bore of .550" and will shoot a saboted slug of .505" weighing 183 grains. A little light, but heavier than say a 125 grain or 158 grain .357 Magnum bullet.

A 20 ga. with a .615" bore shoots a slug weighing 328-1/8 grains. Now we're getting somewhere. Might have to stalk up a little closer to get a shot, but that's just hunting.

And a 20 ga. loaded with hard #6 makes a great turkey gun. If you can shoot of course, but that's the case no matter how much lead you put in the air.

If more was always better we'd all be shooting 10 ga. guns.

John

P.S. - I'm surprised the military hasn't gone to 20 ga. guns for many of the same reasons they've gone from the .45 to the 9mm.

[Dave McC]

For most folks, 12 gauge is where the lines on the graph cross between payload and portability.

If something can be killed or broken with a charge of shot, there's a 12 gauge load for just that.

Besides a couple hundred slugs, Casa McC has 12 gauge loadings for stuff from geese to clays. Loading weights runs from 1 5/8 oz to some 3/4 oz experimental buck loads.Pellets from 00 to tiny. Most of my clay shooting is done with 7/8 oz reloads using 8.5 shot.

There's no such thing as a Universal Firearm, good for all things equally well. A 12 gauge pump like an 870 comes closest of all contenders.

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

sm -
I liked your post. I'm a big fan of light loads in the 12 ga and find that with my field gun they both pattern and kill best.

But I don't know about this 12 gauge "mystique" that started this thread. I guess any "mystique" probably comes from its popularity. And its popularity comes from its versatility and deadlyness.

[roy reali]

What makes the 12 gauge deadlier then the smaller gauges? Saying that part of the popularity of the 12 is its deadliness almost implies that a dove should have no fear from a 20 gauge. Or if you are using a 28 gauge you'd better be right under one sitting in tree if you hope to bag it.

Now you know why I started this thread. The 12 Gauge seems to take on magical qualities in some minds.

[Mak308]

This week when I went to the range I saw three older guys making fun of some dude shooting a 20 gauge, I thought to myself these guys are rude so I pulled out my MOSSBERG 590 with the LED light on and shoot one right in the dead center of target and all was left was the man's left ear. LOL them guys sure did shut them pie holes when they heard big mama. :D

[Csspecs]

I have shot a good number of running tree rats and I always have a better time with the 12 gauge than a 20. The pattern is a bit bigger and a bit denser, that seems to make the difference some times.

If I use a 12 with a modified choke I would use a 20 with full choke, this makes up for the pattern density issue I have had in the past when using bulk pack ammo small game hunting. The other fix is to buy one ounce loads of number 8 or smaller instead of number 6.

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

What makes the 12 gauge deadlier then the smaller gauges? Saying that part of the popularity of the 12 is its deadliness almost implies that a dove should have no fear from a 20 gauge. Or if you are using a 28 gauge you'd better be right under one sitting in tree if you hope to bag it.

Now you know why I started this thread. The 12 Gauge seems to take on magical qualities in some minds.

I'm saying it has a reputation, much like the .30-06. There's nothing mystical about the .30-06, but its been used by a helluva lot of people to kill a helluvalot of game, therefore it has a reputation.

The 12 ga has that same reputation, deserved or not. There's nothing magical about it. Its just tried and true.

I have to say though, in terms of killing power, I don't see how anyone can argue that the heavier payload and high velocity of that payload doesn't give the 12 ga a little more killing power than smaller gauges. Sure you could argue that a good shot with a .410 is just as deadly - I don't disagree. But I'm certainly not that good and I think the 12 gauge helps me make cleaner kills on game than smaller gauges because not all my shots are perfect. I have a 20 ga. I stopped taking it out for wild pheasant because I crippled a few and even lost one or two depite my (and my dog's) best efforts. Switching to a 12 ga I had a lot more "bang flops". Is that beacuse I'm a better shot with that particular 12 ga? Maybe. Or it could be the addition shot in the pattern and shorter string. Thats why I like the 12 ga. Mystical - NO. Tried and true for me - YES!

[johnbt]

Ah, but does the 12 have a shorter shot string in the heavier loadings like 1.25 ounces?

Does a heavier payload actually produce better patterns, or does the addition weight deform too many pellets when the gun fires and cause them to scatter ineffectively?

John

[roy reali]

A 12 gauge does not have more velocity then any other gauge.

Again, I rest my case. There are many people that think a 12 someone shoots faster then the smaller gauges.

[Old John]

I grew up with an old single barrel 12 gauge, sitting behind the door,
in the kitchen and in the front room. I always had a box of 7 1/2 shot,
for birds, and 5's or 6's for rabbits or squirrels.
I took it squirrel hunting. I took it rabbit hunting.
It was what my Dad had.
It was what I had. I still have it.
All my cousins had them too.
I had a younger brother that saved up & bought a 20 gauge,
'cause he didn't like the 12 ga. kick.

Shoot I didn't get a pump gun 'til after I got married.
DSW gave me one for Christmas, the 2nd year after.
I was so-o-o-ooooooo tickled.

Thing is guys, shoot what you like.
But why "down someone" 'cause they shoot something different?
I'm prejudiced for 12's. I'll prob'ly always use them.
Y'all have fun

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

A 12 gauge does not have more velocity then any other gauge.

Again, I rest my case. There are many people that think a 12 someone shoots faster then the smaller gauges.

Umm, my point was more payload without losing velocity (compared to smaller gauges). But.... look at the hunting loads on:

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx?act=choose&firearm=5&s1=1

many of the 12 ga loads have a higher velocity with a larger payload. So the 12 ga has more KE.

Ah, but does the 12 have a shorter shot string in the heavier loadings like 1.25 ounces?

Does a heavier payload actually produce better patterns, or does the addition weight deform too many pellets when the gun fires and cause them to scatter ineffectively?

John

I think it goes like this: a 12 ga 1 oz load has a shorter sting than a 20 ga 1 oz load. A 12 ga 1.25 oz load has a longer string than 20 ga 1 oz, but 25%more shot. It seems like a trade-off; with 12 ga 1.25 oz you may get a longer string but more shot to bring down that bird.

I dunno about pellet deformation...

All and all I like it because it seems to bring down more birds for me. I don't glorify it, I just like it.

[roy reali]

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/target/gun_club.asp

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/waterfowl/nitro-Steel_high_velocity_magnum.asp

I have found a few 20 gauge loads with higher velocities then similar 12 gauge loads. Also, kinetic energy for birdshot is calculated per pellet. Not all the pellets are going to hit the bird all at once. Total energy is okay if you are talking about slugs, but not birdshot. So basically, every pellet that comes out of a 10 gauge barrel has approximately the same energy as same size pellets out of 410 shotgun.

The mystique of the 12 lives on!

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

The first link is for target loads. These are generally not loaded to max. The second link is for steel shot and yes, congradulations, you found a 20 ga load that is faster than a 12 ga load. But lets not compare apples to oranges. The hottest 12 ga sends a heavier payload faster than the hottest 20 ga. Look at Federal's websight.

Also, you can look at KE in a per pellet basis. But consider that if all the pellets hit the target, the 12 ga with a heavier payload will transer more energy because more shot will hit the taget. In the real world, you don't expect this to happen, but with a higher shot count in your string you have better odds of hitting the target with more pellets thereby transering more energy. Aslo the higher shot count increase the odds of hitting a vital area. Thats why turkey loads pack almost 2 oz of shot. Because no matter how good of a shot you are, at 40 yards more shot give you a better chance at putting one in the gobbler's head and neck.

No mystiqe - just ballistics.

[roy reali]

If you are hunting birds with a 20 and your shots are way off, a 12 will not help. If you are hitting birds smack in the middle of the pattern with a 12, a 20 will not hinder your shooting. I have seen guys fold birds with a 28 better then many guys I have seen hunt with a 12. The 12 gauge will help if you are hitting targets at the edge of the pattern. In that case more practice is needed.

You seem to make sound like a 12 will make a bird hunter a miracle shooter. Trust me it won't. I use a 12 gauge most of the time because my wing shooting skills leave a lot to be desired. My buddy smack birds left and right with his 28 gauge. He also spend ungodly hours and money shooting at clay games.

[revjen45]

"Does a heavier payload actually produce better patterns, or does the addition weight deform too many pellets when the gun fires and cause them to scatter ineffectively?"

Is a burglar in my house going to measure the length of the shot string? I figure at in the house ranges, differences in pellet deformation, or a couple of flyers won't be noticed when a load starting with 12 #00s slams into his chest from 10 to 25 feet away, and that's only the first of 8. The only real disadvantage to the 12 is the size of the mess after it's all over but the shouting.

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

If you are hunting birds with a 20 and your shots are way off, a 12 will not help. If you are hitting birds smack in the middle of the pattern with a 12, a 20 will not hinder your shooting. I have seen guys fold birds with a 28 better then many guys I have seen hunt with a 12. The 12 gauge will help if you are hitting targets at the edge of the pattern. In that case more practice is needed.

You seem to make sound like a 12 will make a bird hunter a miracle shooter. Trust me it won't. I use a 12 gauge most of the time because my wing shooting skills leave a lot to be desired. My buddy smack birds left and right with his 28 gauge. He also spend ungodly hours and money shooting at clay games.

You and me are just not on the same page. This will be my last post on the matter.

1) The larger gauges are more powerful than the smaller gauges. I say "powerful" because despite how good a shot anyone is, larger payloads even at equal velocities have the potential to transfer more enery and have more wounding potential. That is power.

2) despite your examples there are several 12 ga loads that go 1550 fps, a good 100 fps faster than any 20 ga load I've seen published. So by your argument that KE is per pellet, the 12 ga has more KE.

3) the KE per pellet argument might be what is used, but that doesn't make it useful. To me it doesn't make physical sense. A better determination of a shotgun's KE would be # of shot in a certain size circle at its impact velocity. The size circle and distance would be dependent on the hunting/target situation. Using this method you could more accuratley asses how much KE will hit the target. Also using this method you could see how in certain cases, like a 20 ga mag load w/EF choke would be more powerful at 30 yards than a cyl bore 12 ga with light loads. Fine. When you compare two similar loads from similar chokes at the same range I'll bet ya bottom dollar the 12 ga puts more shot (possibly at a higher velocity) than smaller gauges. Likewise the 10 ga would overpower the 12.

4) The effectiveness of any caliber is dependent on the shooter's ability to hit the target. Just like a .338 is useless for deer in the hands of a bad shot and a .30/30 is deadly in the hands of a good rifleman. The difference is with a shotgun is that larger payloads increase the odds of hitting the target. Futhermore they increase the chance of killing that target immeadiatly.

5) I think its great that your buddy can smoke clays with his 28 ga. Would he go goose hunting with it?

There is no mystique. The 12 ga doesn't turn anyone into a miracle shooter. Its just more powerful. the 10 ga is even more powerful but then recoil and gun weight become an issue. A 12 ga 2 3/4 mag load is as much as most shooter can take, and thats why its the most popular: most power for the recoil.

[BigJimP]

I own and shoot 4 gagues primarily 12,20,28 and .410 and I wouldn't get rid of any of them. But a 12ga is probably more versatile - and you can load a 12ga down to the point where it becomes virtually the same as a 20, 16 or 28ga by going with a lighter weight of shot ( 28 ga is 3/4 oz of shot max for competition).

Shells are also cheaper to buy for 12 and 20ga so unless you reload for the 28 or .410 they become pretty expensive to shoot on a regular basis.

Is the 12ga sacred - no. I shoot skeet with all 4 gagues - and lately I've been shooting the 28ga probably 75% of the time just because it costs less to reload a shell with 3/4 of an ounce than 1 oz of shot or 1 1/8 oz of shot in a 12ga. For sporting clays -I compete in all the sub-gagues when its available - but my primary gun is a 12ga ( longer targets, etc ) but if I could get over the mental issue of not pushing 1 1/8oz of shot downrange I could use a 20 ga just as well - but I don't.

But buy and shoot what you like.

[johnbt]

"Is a burglar in my house"

We're talking shot strings and hunting, or maybe clays.

"the KE per pellet argument might be what is used, but that doesn't make it useful."

It does make it useful, very useful. Only a few pellets hit the typical clay or bird and by knowing the initial speed, pellet weight and distance it's possible to calculate the odds on it being an effective load for the purpose intended. IOW, will enough pellets with enough oomph hit the object. Take a clay and slide it all over your 30" circle and see where the holes are in your pattern - holes being places where the clay doesn't cover 3, 4, pellet 5 holes or whatever number you think it enough for the distance and pellet size you're shooting. The total energy at the muzzle doesn't enter into it.

Quite a few geese were killed with a 28 ga. when lead shot was legal.

The 12 ga. is a fine ga., and I own a bunch including 2.75", 3" & 3.5", but it's not all that much better unless you really need to shoot steel shells or hit targets at extreme distances. And I do hunt waterfowl in tidal waters.

John

[roy reali]

You should be awarded with a shotgun knowledge certificate.:)

[sm]

You should be awarded with a shotgun knowledge certificate.:)

He had some.
John makes his own wax coated paper hulls for 28 gauge out of that parchment.
Says he gets about 8 reloads out of them.

:p

[Csspecs]

I agree that a .410 can be just as good as a 12 in the right hands......

Thats why I hunt with a 12 (less skill-more power). "MIKE WANTS BIG PATTERNS"

[Mike Irwin]

I can't believe that we all forgot one of the integral components of the 12-gauge mystique...

A load of buckshot out of one will pick a badguy up and throw him THROUGH the closest window, even if that window is 50-100 feet away.

[sm]

And that boys and girls is why the Esteemed Mike Irwin uses a Hi-Standard Pump gun in 12 gauge.

It picks picks up a BG higher therefore allowing for more downrange distance window crashing.

Now you know. :p

[johnbt]

sm is a funny guy. :) I wish I reloaded paper hulls. I wish I had time for a lot of things.



"Re:johnbt
--------------------------------------------------------
You should be awarded with a shotgun knowledge certificate."

I couldn't accept it, everything I know I stole from a real expert. :) Or at least an experienced hunter with a touch of common sense.

Okay, except the fact that big shells in light guns hurt me more than little shells in heavy guns. And that there's nothing worse than an ill-fitting gun. Except looking at the bead.

John

[sm]

pssst John,
I cheat finally turned into my Mentors.

A-L-L them shells I reloaded, at one time with 11 relaoders up and running at the same time...

These folks I assist with and hang out with? They do all the reloading.
Oh I *might* pull a handle once in a while, usually with the kids...
I now just grab what I need from buckets of all 4 gauges already loaded up.

Just like Mentors did the buckets I had reloaded.

Age has its Perks. :D

A bucket holds more 28 ga than 12 gauge shells...goody goody gumdrop...

Not Mystique, just Fact.

:p

[Hardtarget]

For many years the only shotgun in my closet was a Savage mod. 24 in .22/410. Took more small game with it than my F-150 could carry.

Last time I looked in my safe...there were five 12 ga. guns...and the little Savage. I need to fill in some of the "ga. gap". I need a 20 and a 28...I'm sure I do.

As for the mystique...I just always wanted the 12 ga. Now I have them.

Mark.

[ConcealCarryNY]

I grew up hunting rabbits and birds with a 20, turkey with a 12 every cartrige and caliber has its uses.

[Justme]

I have a 12 side by side and a single shot 28. I got my first deer back in the 70s with the 28, I was 13 at the time and maybe that influenced my appreciation of that little gun.

I like the 12, but if I'm walking very far I grab the 28 because it feels like it weighs about 1/2 as much, and a pocket full of shells weighs a lot less too.

Still, either gun will kill pretty much anything in North America that I point it at. I don't know about the whole grizzly bear thing, but oddly enough I don't lie awake at night worrying about it either. Chances are if I'm destined to be bear food, then bear food I will be. I'm comfortable being only one step from the top of the food chain if it ever comes to that. Frankly I'd much rather provide sport for a grizzly than some drunken driver, and there isn't any weapon that works against that.

[banditt007]

the loads i shoot most often (haha) out of my 12 gauge are 1oz #6 shot at small game. this same exact load is typical for a 20 gauge. the difference between the 12 gauge and others is that it can shoot a larger payload at the same speed the smaller gauges shoot a lighter load. its all about payload if you look, for example at the 20 and 16 gauge vs the 12 gauge, you will notice all the velecoities are very similar, its the payload where the 12 gauge can be effectively loaded up or down. usually 1 oz to 2oz for the 12 gauge (not including the 3.5" 12 gauge) some 12 gauge loads are even down to 7/8" oz. it does have the 'woah its a 12 gauge' but generally thoughts/things like that are only talked about by people that dont know the full story like most things. i love my 12 gauge, 1oz loads are great for small game and i can take bear with it too. heck even a 20 gauge is great for small game and no one can argue a 20 gauge full bore size slug on a black bear/deer. what more can you ask for?

[Sgt.Fathead]

Did I just invent that? My Two Cents (MTC)? Well, I have a few 12 gauge pump guns and a beautiful Beretta 16 gauge side-by-side that my dear father-in-law passed down to me. I like to take my Mossberg Maverick 88 six-shot down to the sand pits and go wild with box after box of cheap shot loads and bargain buck and slugs, too. There's always ammo available for the 12 gauge contingent dirt cheap. I like to "buy cheap and stack deep" on the 12.

My wife loves that 16 gauge side-by-side so whenever I find sales on 16 bird shot, I pick up a bunch for the next time the wife wants to do some shooting. But I can never find any sales that are that good and this brings me to my favorite part of the 12 gauge round; it shoots a little bit of everything, is good for a wide variety of hunting and defense/offense tasks and it seems to be the gauge that most of us have and shoot and the ammo winds up being cheap, widely available and in a wide variety, too.

[Maser]

Ok I admit that what sold me on a 12 gauge is its sheer power at close range. I didn't grow up shooting targets professionally, but rather just a plinker that would shoot anything laying around my shooting spots. My first experience with the mighty 12 gauge was shooting things from far away. I loved it because no matter what I always hit what I was pointing at. Then one day I was shooting this wooden post stuck in the ground and I shot it with birdshot (sorry, I don't remember the size). All the pellets stuck in the post. I got much closer to it and fired and it blew a hole completely through it. I then stepped back a few more steps and fired and the whole top of the post blew apart. I was officially hooked then.

I have grown up a lot since then and have had experience with the other gauges. For me I will always pick the 12 gauge because it's what has been most effective for me. However, I will try and make trap shooting more challenging by switching to a 28 gauge. It's a lot harder but still fun. If .410 shells weren't so expensive, I would like that shell too.

But yeah, 12 gauge gets my vote all the time. :cool:

[kgpcr]

In my world the 16ga is king for upland. I shoot an Ithaca model 37 at just over 6lbs. I shoot a 1 1/8 oz load at 1350fps and i will put that against just about any gun on the planet. Also it sure is a dream to carry. of the 6 of us that hunt together 2 of us shoot over half the birds and he shoots the same thing i do. Now for geese at long range with steel. I shoot my 3" 12ga but for all else it the 16ga. knock down of a 12 and the weight of a 20. it would have never diminished the way it did if the gunmakes would have kept on making a 16 instead of just putting a 16ga barrel on a 12ga. just as heavy as a 12 might just as well have a 12.