How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy

[threegun]

Say you are holding a perp at gunpoint and a police officer, fellow CCW holder, or off duty cop decides to respond. All they see is a man holding a gun pointing it at another. You may or may not have already fired your gun further raising the responders Adrenalin. How do you prevent them from shooting you before they know who is who?

A friend of mine gave me an idea that I use today and recommend to others. I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting. I asked close to a dozen Tampa police officers, detectives and HCSO deputies if it would make them pause and they said absolutely followed by good idea. It says CWP permit so you won't get in trouble for impersonating an officer.

[Kentucky Deer Hunter]

Perspective #1: CCW holding the perp at bay

Hopefully there would be time to dial 911 first and talk to them or stick it in my pocket while it is still connected. When the cops get there, drop the gun and follow all orders and don't put up a fight. They'll figure it out, there is usually a good guy and a bad guy, shouldn't be too hard.

Perspective #2: CCW holder walking up on the situation

If I arrived into that situation, hopefully I would be a little responsible and dial 911 first. Then take a good look at the situation from good cover. I would never trust anyone who just holds up a badge during a gun fight... What if they are impersonating an officer... then I would be the next victim.:(

This is a gray area that I believe would come down to actually being in the situation. Now if I had just spoken with 911 and they said that there was an officer on the scene, I would not be as leery. But then this goes back to the previous forum thread about 'Would you help an officer in a gunfight'.

Main thing, stay on your toes and keep an eye on the situation from an advantage point (preferably good cover) and don't jump in too quick.

Just a thought... Criminals do this for a living, do we have to keep giving them good ideas?:o

[Engloid]

I think I'd just put my gun down when the cop got there, and let him sort out who the bad guy was.

[ATW525]

I wouldn't hold a perp at gun point. It's not my job to detain or arrest people, only to stop a threat. So, I'd retreat to safety as soon as possible and then call the police. The exception is inside my home, where the bad guy had better do the retreating if he knows what's good for him or else he gets shot to the ground.

[newarcher]

That's the world's dumbest idea...IMHO.

Would that be a CCW badge?

New

[CraigJS]

Newarcher, I second that opinion.

[Tanzer]

A badge that identifies you as a CWP holder? Why not get a T-shirt with a target on it that reads "shoot me first"? There's a reason why it's a CONCEALED weapon.

[ATW525]

A badge that identifies you as a CWP holder? Why not get a T-shirt with a target on it that reads "shoot me first"? There's a reason why it's a CONCEALED weapon.

I believe the badge is supposed to be concealed as well, until needed, not pinned on the person's shirt all day. Though that would be rather humorous.

[threegun]

Guys you carry the "badge" in your pocket and remove it when you need it.

That's the world's dumbest idea...IMHO.

When you get involved in a shoot out and are forced to cover the bad guy it might save your life. Since off duty cops occassionally get shot by the good guys it will make the good guys pause thus giving them time to find out whats going on. Officers from two agencies say it will work on them and its a great idea.

I would never trust anyone who just holds up a badge during a gun fight... What if they are impersonating an officer... then I would be the next victim.

But you wouldn't shoot that person without making sure either which is the desired effect.

You have a good idea. Unfortunately in my neighborhood they wood arrest me for impersonating.

Sorry to hear that. Here in Tampa, Fl. the officers I talked to said that as long as I don't claim to be a cop I'm good. All I have done is removed and displayed my permit..........alone with the "concealed weapons permit" badge in preparation to show arriving law enforcement.

[jfrey123]

You hold up a badge, especially after detaining someone at gun point, and you're likely to go to jail for Impersonating an Officer. But, if you are comfortable with that risk, you might want to invest in a small blue or red revolving light for your car. :cool:

If the situation requires you maintain control of a situation by use of an pointed firearm, I believe you would be just fine with putting your weapon down when police arrive on scene. As long as you don't point at police, they should be fairly gental on you while they figure out what is going on. If they witness you pointing at a perp on the ground, but not firing, that kinda declares your purpose on this scene. Even with that "badge", or any other form of ID, you are probably going to be handcuffed and disarmed while police run through the on scene investigation. LEO's please correct me if I'm wrong.

[threegun]

You hold up a badge, especially after detaining someone at gun point, and you're likely to go to jail for Impersonating an Officer. But, if you are comfortable with that risk, you might want to invest in a small blue or red revolving light for your car.


Jeff, I wasn't comfortable with it until I asked officers, detectives, and deputies from two different agencies. They all said no law was broken and they all thought it was a smart move.

If the situation requires you maintain control of a situation by use of an pointed firearm, I believe you would be just fine with putting your weapon down when police arrive on scene. As long as you don't point at police, they should be fairly gental on you while they figure out what is going on.

Have you ever heard of off duty officers getting shot by friendlies? I have. Sometimes for whatever reason they screw up. This badge could prevent this accident. With some of the yahoo's who carry guns with permits that are just itchin to shoot someone........................I think I'll use my badge idea.

Imagine the Utah mall shooting and the chaos with that. It just plain makes sense to carry the badge. After the cops said it was okay it just has no down sides IMO.

[CraigJS]

And if you go to trial or are sued for the shooting, I hope your lawyer can explain that you wern't playing cop.. Something that the BG's lawyer will most likely try to push.
You'd be better off having your carry permit and DL in your hand when the PD rolls up. This of course is after you make a 911 call on your cell reporting what happened, along with your description. Or if needed have someone else make the call on your phone.
Be safe.

[newarcher]

Revisiting....

If it is abundantly clear that I have a valid reason to subdue someone using my gun I will...assuming I didn't shoot them to begin with. Then it occurs to me (sitting here in my chair) that I am going to do what I have seen the cops do via felony stop procedures....turn them around, on their knees, on their belly, ankles crossed, arms behind their back palms up, faced turned away from me. Then I will take control by putting my knee and all 285 pounds that follow it into their rib cage....perhaps even multiple times depending on the crime. Once I am confident that I have control of them by sitting my knee on their neck, I will re-holster my weapon. When the police arrive, I will keep my knee in his neck while I raise my hands and wait for the police instructions. All this is dependent on the fact that the bad guy is going to follow my unstructions instead of running off (knowing human nature is to avoid shooting at all costs) when I tell him to freeze.

I will not be holding any gun when the police arrive. I respect the hell out of most police but, just like any profession, there are some spark plugs that can't be relied on for reasonableness.

Of course, as the really PROPERLY trained people here....you know them, they have pictures of a famous rock....will undoubtedly point out, I am an untrained cubicle ninja and my opinion has no validity. Our little exercises in what would you do aren't really valid training and thought provolking exercises. Only when you paid a small fortune to take a picture of a rock, roll around in the dirt and the crush and run like a SWAT mole, and shoot at cardboard through poorly designed movie sets are you REALLY qualified to tell us what to do. :barf:

New

[1006smith]

Just a question for situations other than your home. You have him at gun point so I "assume" he is now unarmed. If he tries to run are you going to shoot him??? If so, you just shot an unarmed person. I believe it to be a bad idea for a citizen to hold another at gun point. There are far too many things that can go wrong and the gun owner will be held responsible for almost any actions involving his gun. That's one reason police carry handcuffs; to minimize the amount of time a gun is pointed at a suspect.

I may be wrong here but it sounds like someone is trying setting up a stage to be a hero. Another option would be to ask other citizens to assist in detaining the suspect, put away the gun, and wait for the police. You can explain everything to the police when they arrive and still be the hero.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In an NTI FOF, I had shot the BG as the cops arrived. I threw my hands in the air and yelled: GOOD GUY repeatedly and loudly. Then I followed instructions.

I have no desire to hold some at gun point or go digging through my wallet in the middle of a fight.

You need to clearly communicate that you are not the threat and follow orders. You are the victim.

[ATW525]

Just a question for situations other than your home. You have him at gun point so I "assume" he is now unarmed. If he tries to run are you going to shoot him???

Exactly. Once the threat has stopped the firearm in your hand is nothing more than an empty threat unless you want to serve prison time. Are you going to shoot the guy if he procedes to call your mother names after dropping his weapon? What if his response to your commands to turn around and get on down his knees is to tell you to go have sex with yourself? He could spit on you, he could urinate on you... heck... he could probably even deck you with his bare fist and you still might go to prison for pulling the trigger.

[newarcher]

If he is just being rude, I might wing him :D

If he is leaving, I will let him go.

My feeling is that if he is disarmed and staying and the weapon is near, it is still a threat. We all know how quickly someone can close distances. I would probably never have given him a chance to disarm if he is in my house or had actually threatened me with the gun in public. My home is my castle and I will iflict grave bodily harm on anyone who enters it with malice on their minds....also certain inlaws.

New

[gvf]

A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

[threegun]

Glenn, You are dead on and I would do as instructed immediately. What I feel the badge does is cause a delay in getting shot by friendlies until they are in control of the situation.

You other guys can do what you want. I was just offering something different. If you are concerned that simply explaining that you didn't want the cops to think that you were the bad guy and shoot you before having the chance to explain so, then don't use the idea. If you think it will cause you to wanna play cop then don't use the idea. If you think it will cause you to murder a fleeing suspect then don't use the idea. Jeez you guys are a trip.

If like me and many law officers you feel it will reduce the chance of getting shot by a friendly then use it.

[armedandsafe]

A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

True. However, many states do give residents and citizens that power under certain circumstances. Read the law before you need to use it.

Pops

[Redneckrepairs]

Pretty simple actualy with a couple of rules .

1. dont hold anyone at gunpoint .

2. dont have a gun in hand when LE shows up have it visible on the floor /ground between your feet , and back off as commanded .

[threegun]

You absolutely have the right to hold a person who just attempted a forcable felony on you.

Since I am not LE I don't care if bad guy runs when I take command of the situation. Once the threat is over if the bad guy gets on the ground very good if he runs away very good. I win either way. My job is to insure my safety and my families safety. This includes not getting shot by a LE officer or CCP holder that have itchy trigger fingers.

[Microgunner]

Sorry Threegun, but I think it's a dumb idea also and have told you so on several occasions. Ditch the badge and lay your weapon down upon the arrival of the authorities. But I must say, it's a nice shiny badge though.:D

[Hemicuda]

Wow, Threegun... I have (as a keepsake) my mother's first badge... she was county prosecutor here for years... MAYBE I oughtta use the 1977 CLEO badge... since it ain't 1977, anymore, it isn't impersonating an officer...

BAD idea... (but so is pulling a gun to "detain" someone...)

[David Armstrong]

Detaining BG at gunpoint----Bad idea.
Waving around a badge if you aren't a LEO---Bad idea.
Having a gun in your hands when the LEOs respond to a "man with a gun" call----Bad idea.

Starting to see a pattern here??

[Lurper]

There are rare occasions when it may be necessary to hold someone at gunpoint. You have just wounded them for example or you witnessed them committing an offense that justified deadly force but they stopped before you shot them. Putting your gun down before the police arrive is not tactically sound. Hopefully you have been smart enough to call 911 already and give them your description, what you are armed with, location, BG's location, etc. When the police arrive, listen to and follow their commands. I'm much more comfortable believeing that the responding officers are not just going to jump out of their cars and gun me down than I am believeing that I should disarm myself while danger close to a BG. Don't know that waving a badge is the right answer either though.

[Axion]

The big problem I see with holding up some sort of badge is: won't the cops know that there aren't any other cops on the scene yet and thus assume that you are an impersonator thus raising their suspicions?

[Powderman]

Suggestion:

Should this situation arise, here's what should work:

Maintain your coverage while calling 911. The first, vital step is to give dispatch a COMPLETE discription of yourself, including EXACTLY what you are doing.

If I were to respond to this, and my dispatch tells me that the good guy is wearing xxxx, is xxx tall and xxx lb, xxx hair, and has the suspect at gunpoint, when I pulled up on the scene the first thing I should see is you stepping back and holstering your firearm. In this case, I would gain a lot of intelligence by watching your demeanor.

Badges don't mean squat to me, unless they're backed up by a commissioning card or you're an officer I know from an agency I'm familiar with.

Anyway, when you see the officers, re-holster your firearm, turn your back to the officers, and PUT YOUR HANDS IN PLAIN SIGHT, FINGERS SPREAD, PALM VISIBLE. Interlocking your fingers on your head is a plus.

Understand, we are going to be a bit nervous about responding; until we determine (a) who you are, and (b) that you were justified in the actions you took.

[kozak6]

There's a reason they issue you a permit instead of a badge.

[threegun]

I'm curious as to why you guys keep assuming that because I have a badge I somehow want to play cop? Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is however that with many CWP's and the occasional retarded officer out there, getting shot by a friendly is a possibility.

Many of you say a badge doesn't do squat to stop you until you see ID and thats BS. You walk up on a scene with a man holding a gun on another man and you make a judgment. Hopefully that judgment doesn't involve shooting the guy holding the gun until you have made sure. Now you walk up on the scene of a guy holding a gun and a badge on a another man and you make damned sure to find out whats going on before shooting the badged one.

No matter boys and girls I got my answers from the horses mouths. As I posted before to a tee officers, detectives, and deputies from Hillsborough county sheriffs dept and Tampa police dept have agreed that it would cause them to pause until more info. None thought that it violated impersonation laws either.

While many of you are older white good guy looking CCW'ers and would get the benefit of most officers doubt I am Hispanic and might not.

[Tim Burke]

Unless the police surprise me in the middle of defending myself, I expect to have my weapon holstered when they arrive.
If the situation is stable enough that I can hold someone at gunpoint until the police arrive, I should be able to manipulate the situation to the point that I have sufficient control of the situation that I can holster the gun, even if I feel like I need to maintain a firing grip.

[threegun]

Tim, Holster your gun and hold me down? Never been in a real serious fight have you? Ever wrestled or grappled? Might be your last decision. It is super hard to subdue a violent male that you are not in position to shoot with bare hands.

Try wrestling someone of similar size just for fun then imagine if they were on drugs or otherwise fighting for their lives. I just isn't wise to get close.

[David Armstrong]

No matter boys and girls I got my answers from the horses mouths. As I posted before to a tee officers, detectives, and deputies from Hillsborough county sheriffs dept and Tampa police dept have agreed that it would cause them to pause until more info.
I would suggest that perhaps your in-person contacts were being diplomatic and/or pulling your leg a bit, as virtually every officer I've mentioned it to has said it was a bad idea. Equally, perhaps more importantly, when searching the topic on a number of forums, I did not find a single officer saying it was a good idea, but a lot of them saying it wasn't. Just something to consider.

Tim, Holster your gun and hold me down?
Again, why try to hold the BG down, or detain him, or any of that other nonsense? More importantly, what are you going to do, shoot the BG is he decides to get up and walk away?

[Tim Burke]

Exactly. I'm not wrestling with him or holding him down, period. I'm not even going to prevent him from leaving. The only reason I'll hold him "at gunpoint" is to control the situation if he doesn't immediately leave the scene. Shortly after the gun is presented he's probably going to do one of following:
Fall down and bleed.
Cease hostilities and comply.
Run away.
Continue to fight.

So what will I do?
Move to a position of cover. Scan 360. Reload. Holster. Call the police. Continue to scan.
Face him away from me. Scan 360. Prone him out. Move to a position of cover. Holster. Call the police. Continue to scan.
Scan 360. Move to a position of cover. Holster. Call the police. Continue to scan.
Shoot him until he does 1, 2 or 3 and then switch algorithms.


If he drops his weapon really, really quick and then just stands there daring me to shoot him, I'll tell him to leave.

[threegun]

I would suggest that perhaps your in-person contacts were being diplomatic and/or pulling your leg a bit, as virtually every officer I've mentioned it to has said it was a bad idea. Equally, perhaps more importantly, when searching the topic on a number of forums, I did not find a single officer saying it was a good idea, but a lot of them saying it wasn't. Just something to consider.


I would suggest that you listen to the officers in your area as they should be a good indication of the mindset in your part of the country. Our local officers have no reason to "pull my leg" or otherwise deceive me. Two of the officers are family members and certainly wouldn't steer me into a crime.

I certainly hope you posed the idea without inserting this false notion that I somehow want to play cop or want to hold a bad guy etc. I explained my priorities being a hero or wannabe cop isn't one of them. If the badguy runs away no longer a danger........great I win.

What can you do to help insure that you aren't mistaken for a criminal and shot? Giving a description of yourself to 911 operators is great for on duty cops but doesn't address off duty officers and ccw holders. Compliance with commands is something you need to do anyway. Putting your gun down again can be done in addition to.

Ask your cop friends what they hold up when off duty to prevent them from being shot by friendlies..................their badge. A shiny piece of tin foil would serve the same purpose. It works for LE and it will work for Johnny citizen.

[Microgunner]

Again, why try to hold the BG down, or detain him, or any of that other nonsense? More importantly, what are you going to do, shoot the BG is he decides to get up and walk away?

I have to agree with this thinking. If the BG got up and walked away I wouldn't shoot him or grapple with him. So it's a moot point. I wouldn't attempt to hold the assailant at gunpoint.

[WIN71]

I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting.It should work. In fact I know it will work. That's why perps don't do it. They don't want another perp coming along and mistakenly shooting them thinking they are a cop.

[threegun]

I will not jeopardize my safety by trying to PHYSICALLY detain anyone. I don't want to play policeman. In fact I think the badge is a bit corny. Still it will cause good guys to delay shooting you until things are sorted out which is my purpose. The occasions for its need will probably be more rare than the chances of the shootout itself still we prepare for the shootout why not the aftermath?

[David Armstrong]

I would suggest that you listen to the officers in your area as they should be a good indication of the mindset in your part of the country.

Did that just the other night. About 20 af the guys/gals, and to a man they rejected the idea. Again, I would suggest that what the friendly LEO says to non-LE in response to certain questions is not necessarily what they really think. I believe you will get a better indication if you check out the responses on LE sections of various forums as opposed to an in-person discussion.
I certainly hope you posed the idea without inserting this false notion that I somehow want to play cop or want to hold a bad guy etc.
I don’t think I inserted any notions at all. I have responded fairly directly to the statements made.
What can you do to help insure that you aren't mistaken for a criminal and shot?
You can’t insure it. However you can reduce the chances quite a bit by not doing silly things. As a general rule, if you will do EXACTLY what the friendly officer tells you to do when he tells you to do it, you won’t get shot. I worked undercover/plainclothes/off-duty, and my reaction was always the same---when the nice policeman came in (unless I was working with a team that personally knew me) when they said “down on the ground” I tried to be the first one there.
Ask your cop friends what they hold up when off duty to prevent them from being shot by friendlies..................their badge.
Sorry, I have never heard such a thing. First, the badge doesn’t mean much, as anybody can get one and I can’t read it until I get real close to you. Second, the badge doesn’t mean anything if you don’t do exactly what I tell you, and if you do what I tell you the badge is not relevant at all. Third, real cops talk to each other, they don’t flash tin and expect it to mean anything.
It works for LE and it will work for Johnny citizen.
I doesn’t work for LE. That is one reason why we get off-duty/plainclothes officers shot every year. They think the badge is some sort of magic talisman and don't follw the basic rules.
....why not the aftermath?
Because silly tricks lead to a false sense of security, and can lead to getting shot. Save your money, standing there waving your CCW permit around will be just as effective as a badge would be.

[threegun]

Did that just the other night. About 20 af the guys/gals, and to a man they rejected the idea. Again, I would suggest that what the friendly LEO says to non-LE in response to certain questions is not necessarily what they really think. I believe you will get a better indication if you check out the responses on LE sections of various forums as opposed to an in-person discussion.


Are you trying to tell me that you and your LE friends would shoot a man holding a person at gunpoint with a badge in the other hand? What kind of officers do you associate with David? Provided no threats to your safety are made of course this is absolutely the most disgusting thing I have heard. The fact that a police officer will not pause in the face of a badge provided the holder of the badge isn't making threatening movement is disturbing. No I think I'll go with my LE friends who will pause to assure that the badge isn't a fellow officer.

I don’t think I inserted any notions at all. I have responded fairly directly to the statements made

My response was to multiple folks David. I should have done a better job directing it sorry.

It doesn't work for LE. That is one reason why we get off-duty/plainclothes officers shot every year. They think the badge is some sort of magic talisman and don't follow the basic rules.

Or an officer reacted to soon because their was no badge. Remember I said following the verbal commands of the officer is a must. The badge is in addition to.....

Because silly tricks lead to a false sense of security, and can lead to getting shot. Save your money, standing there waving your CCW permit around will be just as effective as a badge would be.

Apparently with your LE friends who will shoot the badge holder before finding out whats going on. I'm am at a loss for words David. I really can't believe what your friends told you.

I mean you say your friends reject my idea. They say it won't work. That means they won't pause to make sure that my badge isn't a fellow officer. I have only one word WOW.

[JohnKSa]

I mean you say your friends reject my idea.CCW badges have been available for many years, some think they're a great idea, from what I've seen, most think they're not. Either way it's hardly your idea that's being rejected. Here's a thread from 7 years ago discussing this topic.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33963

The fourth post on that thread correctly indicates that (even 7 years ago) this topic had been thoroughly debated and provides a reasonably accurate assessment of the results.

The eighth post is by an LEO (Jeff White) and is decidedly negative about the idea.

The tenth post is also by an LEO (Lawdog) and could also be described as decidedly negative.

Here's another from around 6 years ago.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56609.

[threegun]

John. Not a problem dude. I just made the suggestion. I don't care to take credit.

Let me ask you. Would you delay in shooting if you saw a man holding a badge while holding a person at gunpoint? Everyone I have asked from law enforcement to ordinary citizens has said that they would avoid shooting the badged one unless they made a hostile movement. If I saw a man holding a badge he certainly would get the benefit of my doubt. This might cost me my life and I understand that as most do however a badge is usually an indication of the good guy and folks treat its holder as such until proven otherwise. I found that police tend to give minorities less benefit of doubt. I am Hispanic and want extra insurance.

[JohnKSa]

If I had seen the situation develop then I would make my (shoot/no shoot/who to shoot) decision based on the circumstances of the situation, not on who held up something shiny in their weak hand. If I hadn't seen the situation develop, I would be EXTREMELY cautious about inserting myself into it and would almost certainly use my cell phone rather than my gun.

I can't speak for other CHL holders, it's possible that some, most, or even all of them would give the guy with the badge preferential treatment. I'd LIKE to think that they would take the same approach I would...

Not being in LE, I can only guess at what they'll do. I think that LEOs realize that there are armed citizens and undercover cops out there and they are therefore not going to show up and instantly shoot anyone with a gun. My guess is that if LE comes on the scene to find someone holding another person at gunpoint, the determination of whether to shoot or not will depend on whether the person with the gun immediately complies with their commands and on very little else.

In short, if the CCW badge is supposed to prevent you from being shot the instant LE shows up, it's probably unneccessary--I don't see that happening regardless of whether you hold up a badge or not. If the CCW badge is supposed to exempt you from following LE instructions, I don't think it's going to be effective. You're probably going to have to drop your gun and get face down whether you have a badge or not. That's just my opinion.

I'm not as dogmatic on this issue as some. I don't really see having a CCW badge as being a problem and wouldn't advise against it if that's what you want to do. I'm just not sold on the idea that it would really be effective.

You MIGHT get hassled if you showed it to a cop in a situation OTHER than a shooting--some LEOs seem to have a very negative view of the idea--but I can't see them making a big issue of it in a deadly force situation as long as you are on the "right side".

[Tim Burke]

The problem the responding cops have is that they don't know the players, and you're standing there with a gun in your hand. Their problem is unchanged if you have a badge in your support hand. If they show up and your weapon is concealed, your hands are in front of your body and your palms are out, they will perceive the situation much differently.

[DougO83]

A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

In Texas, even an unarmed, private citizen can make an "arrest" for a breacj of peace. That includes fighting and most Class A misdemeanors and felonies, provided they are committed in your actual presence. You do not lose that right or responsibility upon becoming CCW trained.

[JohnKSa]

You do not lose that right or responsibility upon becoming CCW trained.Nor does that training give you any rights in that regard over a non-CCW trained citizen. Thus it gives you no SPECIAL powers to hold suspects.

In other words, any powers that you have to hold suspects are ALREADY there as a result of your being a citizen and do not come from having CCW training or credentials.

[threegun]

John, I'm not worried about most police officers and most armed citizens. Its the few less professional officers and rambo citizens that concern me.

Imagine running up on a spick (me) who has just been forced to shoot an armed robber. While holding this guy at gunpoint he puts his hands up in the surrender/prayer don't shoot me position. Johnny law or Joe citizen only see this prayer position and Johnny law knows shots have been fired and someones down. The spick (me) might not get the benefit of the doubt. David Armstrong most likely will get it being a clean cut older white man. I can promise you that LE gives less quarter to Hispanics and even less to blacks.

I have now asked 14 officers from two agencies (including 2 family members) and literally dozens of citizens including at least 6 that hold concealed firearms licenses. Every single one of them has said it would cause them to pause. I know it would cause me to pause (not that I would engage without knowing the situation but some might). Even those who think the idea is stupid (several of the citizens) said it would cause them to pause. They had concerns with impersonation issues.

I really believe that many of you guys who say it won't cause you to pause are saying so to skew the debate. The sight of a man holding a badge gives an instant mental message of who the good guy is. To argue otherwise is just not being genuine. Its the reason under cover guys carry a chain w/ badge around their necks. It allows responders to sort out the good from the bad instantly, otherwise undercover wouldn't need it around their necks right.

[WIN71]

As much as I hate to semi agree with Threegun I must. Yes it would probably cause an officer to hesitate momentarily. Is it a good idea? I don't think so. In the first place it is very unlikely an officer will come out instantly blasting simply because he sees a man with a gun pointed in some other direction. If you are seriously worrying about that then you may as well worry about some wantabe hero taxi driver running over your a&&. Lots of things would probably cause a copper to hesitate. A fireman’s hat, priests collar, doctor coat with stethoscope, and a hundred other things. It's how you look, act , your total demeanor that will be analyzed almost instantly that will influence a shoot-don't shoot reaction. If you swing the weapon around towards the cop and he feels threatened you will probably get shot, badge or not. There’s lots of badges out there. Dog the bounty hunter even has one.
Some of the arguments in favor of this tactic claim the holder is not trying to impersonate a police officer because the badge plainly has something else written on it, i.e. CCW. Yet by holding it up high the claim is it may cause a responding officer to hesitate thinking for a moment he was facing another police officer. Like it or not you are impersonating a peace officer. A crime that will probably be completely ignored because of the circumstances. So long as you can convince everyone that reviews and sues that you weren’t out there pretending to be a cop and shooting up the neighborhood you should be fine.

[threegun]

A man buys an ex unmarked police car. He drives this car everyday and speeds without getting a ticket. Is he impersonating an officer because other cops think he is LE and don't stop him?

[JohnKSa]

The analogy would be more accurate if this person were actually stopped and tried to use the car to get out of a ticket, IMO.

[Microgunner]

A man buys an ex unmarked police car. He drives this car everyday and speeds without getting a ticket. Is he impersonating an officer because other cops think he is LE and don't stop him?


I know a man, you may too, who owns a plain white Crown Victoria Police Interceptor with dog dish hub caps who says he speeds daily and has never been pulled over, let alone ticketed. He swears that the impression he might be an officer affords him carte blanche in respect to the speed limit. Maybe the badge idea would work also. At least long enough to keep you from being shot. And that's all that really matters.

[threegun]

The analogy would be more accurate if this person were actually stopped and tried to use the car to get out of a ticket, IMO.

To do that would require actually impersonating an officer. All I'm doing is providing my permit info which happens to have a badge in it which happens to cause officers and civilians to think twice about shooting me which happens to be my goal.

If I stopped a stranger to ask a question and pulled the badge you could argue that I had no reason to do so other than to trick that person into thinking I was a cop. I have a very good reason for pulling my permit which includes a badge while awaiting responding officers. Just so happens that like the ex cop car the badge has an effect.

[Mr. James]

This is just silly.

Have you ever heard of off duty officers getting shot by friendlies? I have.

So, fully trained, commissioned peace officers, possessing real, jen-yew-wine PO-lice badges (and credentials to back up the tin), are mistakenly shot by fellow officers. Yet somehow, an everyday citizen holding up a cracker-jack CCW badge (yes, I've seen the ads) is somehow going to benefit?

And the entire premise is silly - you keep referring to "won't this make cops/ccws etc. hesitate"? Hesitate from what? Gunning you down where you stand? If the responding officer or permit-holding passerby has already reached the point of whether to shoot or not shoot, I think the badge is immaterial.

As a non-LEO, I'm not shooting anyone in the scenario you envision. I am probably not physically intervening in any manner. I'm staying the hell out of the way and making a 9-1-1 call.

Go ahead and carry the badge. But I suspect in the best of times it will get you laughed at. In the worst of times it will get you arrested and charged.

[njtrigger]

Here are some thoughts.

First, as a citizen, its your duty to avoid and retreat if at all possible. (in most states) In some states its written into the law where you have the duty to retreat.

Second, many people would probably run from you (or at you) once the weapon is produced. You cant shoot them if they start running and if you chase after them then you put yourself at additional risk.

Third, people who do no good usually have friends to back them up. If you stick around with your pistol holding someone down then the chances increase of their friends coming and who knows what weapons they will have.

Fourth, when the police do arrive on the scene there will probably be plenty of flashing lights and sirens. When they are in your peripheral vision, you can simply put your hands up and get on your knees as a show of surrender.

Fifth, the best possible outcome would be to have the perpetrator run from you and you never see him again. Why? I have been in court defending myself lately against a $75 wrong turn ticket. I've had to do a lot of legwork with engineering diagrams of the intersection, pictures of the intersection, printouts of the law, and other such things. I had to go in front of a judge and the whole thing seemed stacked against me.

Therefore, if the court system will be stacked against you and your only possible way out is an expensive attorney, then its better that the person runs from you.

After all is said and done, you know that the perpetrator will either sue you OR the local prosecutor will try their best to nail you for something and you'll go in front of a tough judge who wants to put you behind bars.

Holding up a fake badge will probably get you shot because it will look like your taking something out of your pocket or making a fast move. Therefore, the best course of action when police arrive is to simply go to your knees and place the weapon slowly on the ground as a show of surrender.

[threegun]

So, fully trained, commissioned peace officers, possessing real, jen-yew-wine PO-lice badges (and credentials to back up the tin), are mistakenly shot by fellow officers. Yet somehow, an everyday citizen holding up a cracker-jack CCW badge (yes, I've seen the ads) is somehow going to benefit?

I suspect that they were confused with the badguy probably because they didn't have their badge displayed.

What does a badge displayed signify to you Mr. James? Why do law enforcement officers working undercover wear them around their necks? How is you vision such that you can spot my gumball machine badge from a distance?

If the responding officer or permit-holding passerby has already reached the point of whether to shoot or not shoot, I think the badge is immaterial.

The idea is to prevent them from reaching that point Mr. James.

As a non-LEO, I'm not shooting anyone in the scenario you envision. I am probably not physically intervening in any manner. I'm staying the hell out of the way and making a 9-1-1 call.


If everyone was like you I wouldn't need a badge now would I.

Go ahead and carry the badge. But I suspect in the best of times it will get you laughed at. In the worst of times it will get you arrested and charged.

I will. I suspect that in the best of times it will save my life.

[threegun]

Just asked two more permit holders shopping for guns here at the shop. Both said the sight of a badge would cause them to pause. I asked what was the first thing that someone holding a badge would signify to them. They both said it told them who the good guy was.


Many of you guys don't like the idea for whatever reason and thats cool. I have done lots of checking and one thing is unanimous, folks (including LE) say it will cause them to delay in shooting the man holding the badge. Thats enough for me.

[Microgunner]

First, as a citizen, its your duty to avoid and retreat if at all possible. (in most states) In some states its written into the law where you have the duty to retreat.



Used to be this way in Florida too, but not any longer. Florida law says you have the constitutional right to defend yourself or others with deadly force when threatened with grevious bodily harm. We are not required to retreat in any fashion. This holds true in our homes, in our autos or on the street. Florida is thick with old folks who don't run too well and they have strong lobbies.

[WIN71]

A man buys an ex unmarked police car. He drives this car everyday and speeds without getting a ticket. Is he impersonating an officer because other cops think he is LE and don't stop him?No, but if you try to make a traffic stop with it you will be. Same with a facsimile badge. Keep it in your pocket and you'll be fine. Wave it around while you have a gun in the other hand.........maybe not.
Since I do not have a CCW I may be mistaken. My understanding is it allows you not to be charged with a violation of carrying a cancelled weapon. Once you pull that smoke pole you're pretty much on your own just like any other citizen without a CCW. A shooting is a shooting and will be investigated on its own merit. Whether or not you have a CCW hasn't got much to do with those results. About all it means is you legally carried a gun to a gun fight.

[njtrigger]

I do have a question about the unmarked Ford Crown Vic. This is a question for the officers.

Lets say you see a Crown Vic Police Interceptor speeding or pull an illegal turn. Would you pull the car over just like any other vehicle? Be honest.

[David Armstrong]

Are you trying to tell me that you and your LE friends would shoot a man holding a person at gunpoint with a badge in the other hand?
Of course not, and I didn’t say anything even close to that. For you to try and phrase it in such a manner is dishonest. There is a world of difference between "The badge makes no difference" and "I'd shoot because he has a badge".
What kind of officers do you associate with David?
Pretty good ones, IMO.
Provided no threats to your safety are made of course this is absolutely the most disgusting thing I have heard.
Again, since that is something you made up on your own, I’m sorry if you disgust yourself. However, you might want to deal with what is actually said instead of nonsensical stuff you dream up. If there is no threat then it doesn't matter if you have a badge or a box of cereal. It neither helps nor hurts.
The badge is in addition to.....
If you do what you are told, you don’t need any “in addition to....” If you don’t do what you are told, the badge won’t help. Thus it becomes irrelevant either way, which is my point.
Apparently with your LE friends who will shoot the badge holder before finding out whats going on.
No, my LE friends will do like any good LEO in the country. If you present a danger to them or to others they will stop you. If you follow instructions/directions they will not use any force beyond that necessary. The badge does not change that at all. Again, you might want to try dealing with what was said instead of some fantasy you made up on your own.
I mean you say your friends reject my idea. They say it won't work.
My friends reject the idea as being rather silly and useless. And history has shown that it won’t work. It provides a false sense of security, which is dangerous. Sorry if that disturbs you.
That means they won't pause to make sure that my badge isn't a fellow officer.
So you admit that you are using the badge to make someone think that you are a police officer? See, that is the problem. LEOs know that anybody can get a badge, thus it doesn't mean much to them. It might mean somethign to non-LE thta don't know any better, but flashing a badge at me doesn't change anything. I'll respond based on your actions, and when things settle down then we can check out each others credentials.
My guess is that if LE comes on the scene to find someone holding another person at gunpoint, the determination of whether to shoot or not will depend on whether the person with the gun immediately complies with their commands and on very little else.[/
John has summarized it quite accurately. LE won’t run up and shoot you just because you have a gun on someone. LE also probably will shoot you if you don’t do exactly what they tell you to do and are presenting a danger to them or others. The badge makes no difference.

[David Armstrong]

I suspect that they were confused with the badguy probably because they didn't have their badge displayed.
You would be wrong on several occasions. Plainclothes officers, off-duty officers, have been shot, even with their badges, because they didn’t do what they were told and thus were perceived as a threat.
Why do law enforcement officers working undercover wear them around their necks?
Again you make an unwarranted assumption. Many undercover officers do not carry badges at all, and few carry them around their necks. Too easy to spot.
I suspect that in the best of times it will save my life.
And that is why so many of us rail against the idea, it provides a false sense of security.

[David Armstrong]

Lets say you see a Crown Vic Police Interceptor speeding or pull an illegal turn. Would you pull the car over just like any other vehicle? Be honest.
By the time you can figure out it is a police intercepter you have probably already stopped it.

[workingstiff]

I’m sorry to say this, but I read through all the threads and I think my initial impression, is that that someone bought a CCW badge and Wallet ID holder, and is trying to justify carrying the same.

Alert to all like minded folks: you are not a LEO.

The chances of you rolling up on a felony in progress are close to zero. The additional probability of you being able to stop the felony and flash your purchased badge and hold the perp at bay is below zero.

Me myself, if I somehow found myself in the rare position of stopping a felony arrest in progress and then the police happened to roll up on “my crime scene.” (I’m more worried about covering my retreat)

I would safely remove my weapon from the threat scenario (toss to the side, or otherwise follow LEO orders), assume a non-threatening position (hands on head, on the ground if so ordered, etc.) and then proceed as so indicated by the Officer-In-Charge.

Flashing a look-a-like badge may indeed buy me a few seconds, it is the actions after that will predicate what action the LEO takes, I hope it’s good for me.

ADVISE: Quit driving a LEO look-a-like vehicle. Move out of your parent’s house. .Find a civilian job.

I also live in Tampa. Sorry, but I think your opinion polls are not statistically valid. My experience indicates that the police are not looking for armed citizen partners.

If you would like to get additional ideas, just call the recognized LEO agency in your area.

[njtrigger]

Hehe. The reason I asked about the Crown Vic is because the morning commute around here is rough. I noticed that, in the fast lane, most cars pull out of the way for any Crown Vic whether it be the retiree, a taxicab, etc. They are relatively cheap around here used, about 5 grand, and if it can give me an advantage in the morning traffic and add some minutes to my valuable time then why not?

[easyG]

First, as a citizen, its your duty to avoid and retreat if at all possible. (in most states) In some states its written into the law where you have the duty to retreat.
I've heard this said time and time again, especially here on this forum, but I have never seen anything in legal form that dictates that a person, when confronted with the threat of bodily harm or death, has the "duty" to avoid or retreat from that threat.

Does anyone have a link to any STATE legal site that says this?

[Lurper]

It varies from state to state. I can't tell you what states require retreat, only that AZ does not. You could try www.packing.org or research each state's laws individually.

[threegun]

NJtrigger, The same reason people pull aside or slow down at the sight of a crown vic is why police ignore them while speed trapping.

Working Stiff, ADVISE: Quit driving a LEO look-a-like vehicle. Move out of your parent’s house. .Find a civilian job.


Drive an expedition, live in my own home, and have a civilian job. Have no desire to be or act like a police officer. If I rolled up on a felony in progress and was able to roll back out I would be thankful.

I’m sorry to say this, but I read through all the threads and I think my initial impression, is that that someone bought a CCW badge and Wallet ID holder, and is trying to justify carrying the same.If you would like to get additional ideas, just call the recognized LEO agency in your area.

If you had read through all the posts you would have noticed that I have talked with more than a dozen officers and deputies from TPD and HCSO including 2 who are family members. I clearly posted that following responding officers commands is a must. You also would have noticed that the furthest thing from my mind is playing cop. My only intent (if you had read) was to cause a delay.......Flashing a look-a-like badge may indeed buy me a few seconds.......and you seem to agree that this will do just that.

[threegun]

David, Our sources completely disagree and I am supposed to believe that you are being honest? I mean come on your people are 100 percent against it and think it won't help prevent an accident. You constantly remind me that I have added things to your writings and I can't help but believe that you added things when you asked your people if a badge would delay them from shooting if the person wasn't posing a danger to the officer and complied with all instructions.

You seem to be of the mindset that all officers are professional and would never shoot to soon. I believe that most are professional but a few might shoot to soon. Still the badge might delay those few unprofessional officers and the thousands of unprofessional CCP holders.

The main thing is that coupled with following instructions (obviously) the badge will further reduce my chances of being mistaken for the criminal (according to my sources anyway). That is my only goal for using it.

[David Armstrong]

David, Our sources completely disagree and I am supposed to believe that you are being honest? I mean come on your people are 100 percent against it and think it won't help prevent an accident.
The main problem there is that it isn't just "my people". john posted a couple of links where LE was opposed to the concept, and most of the posters here in this thread tha have commented on the issue seem to also be opposed to it. In fact, the only support seems to be coming from these face-to-face contacts you have, which seem different from all the internet sources. Rather strange.
You constantly remind me that I have added things to your writings
Only when you add things to my writings.
I can't help but believe that you added things when you asked your people if a badge would delay them from shooting if the person wasn't posing a danger to the officer and complied with all instructions.
There you go adding things to what I said again. That wasn't what I said to them, nor was it the way that you posed the issue. You have again tried to change the discussion. Your initial claim was, "I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting." Based on that premise, my question was simple and twofold. As close as I can remember I asked: 1. Would a person unknown to you flashing a badge in a gun scenario change the way you would respond to the call or the person? 2. Do you think a non-LE flashing a badge at a crime scene is a good idea? The response to both questions was NO.
Again, if you do not pose a threat to them they aren't going to just suddenly run up and start shooting you, so the badge doesn't matter. If you do present a danger to them the badge won't stop them. The badge doesn't matter, you might as well wave around a ham sandwich.
Still the badge might delay those few unprofessional officers and the thousands of unprofessional CCP holders.
There is that false sense of security again.

[threegun]

David, I talked with my people for a good bit of time. I asked them not only what they thought of the idea but what the first thing to cross their minds upon approaching someone holding another at gunpoint both with and without a badge. To an officer they said it would make them pause. They didn't say they would shoot me if I didn't have the badge just that it would indeed cause them to pause. They said that their first thought was the guy holding the badge was the good guy. The guy on the ground was the bad guy.


Again, if you do not pose a threat to them they aren't going to just suddenly run up and start shooting you, so the badge doesn't matter.

You may be preceived by police or others as a threat to the person you are holding at gunpoint David. After all you are pointing a gun at them.

A citizen with a CCW might try to play hero thinking this bald headed spick (me) is about to kill an innocent citizen. After all I am pointing a gun at them.

You are right that the badge will probably not be needed when confronted by a professional police officer. David they are not the only folks out there.

I know that the presence of a badge will cause the overwhelming majority of good guys to pause. My personal interviews have been unanimous. Given our history David I simply can't trust your info although I appreciate your effort if genuine.

If you walked up on the scene of a man holding a gun on another and he holds up a badge what does that mean to you David?

Go or bad to me it means the goodguy has the badge and the badguy is on the ground. To a man it meant the same to every officer I asked.

[kozak6]

Threegun, you are asking the wrong question.

There's a damn fine chance holding up a badge at a crime scene will make good guys pause.

Why? Because police carry badges.

You are not a policeman.

Holding up a badge makes them think you are.

Impersonating the police is generally illegal, and hence, a bad idea.

Do you follow that?

The question you should be asking all of your law enforcement buddies is, "Do you think it's a good idea to go around flashing a fake badge if I end up lawfully shooting someone in self defense?"

[threegun]

Kozak, I did ask if they felt it was impersonating provided I don't do or say anything suggesting that I am LE and provided my CCL was also in the wallet. They said no.

The second to last thing I want is to go to jail. The last thing I want is to get shot.

Holding up a badge makes them think you are.


Lots of wrong assumptions are made daily. If a policeman were to see me a bald, brown skinned, somewhat menacing looking, aggressively build man holding a gun on a cowering, begging, hands in the air criminal, he might make the wrong assumption. If he feels that I am an eminent danger to the innocent looking criminal (considering I'm pointing a gun at them his assumption would be somewhat justifiable) I might be hurt or killed. Lots of people out of LE have badges property inspectors, firefighter etc. The responding officers make an assumption based on what they see. My goal is to make that assumption a predictable one. One that ends well for me. Until they get the facts to support their visual assumption that is. Yes I am the good guy officer. Oh you though I was LE no sir just my CCP ID.

[kozak6]

Except that those are real badges issued by a legitimate source of authority, as opposed to one you picked up at a flea market.

[Hard Ball]

Anyone who shoots at mr IS NOT A GOOD GUY!

[njtrigger]

Let me put it this way. Holding up a fake badge might or might not save your life that is debatable.

However, I do know that the police will arrest you or the prosecutor will most probably charge you with something. The judge will not be kind and you might even serve time in jail and/or pay a hefty fine. In any event, there will be something on your record and your right to bear arms might be taken away.

So the likelihood of you getting shot or not by holding up a fake badge is debatable. The likelihood of you getting arrested and facing the impersonating an officer charges (which may be a felony in some areas) is very high and more then likely.

How many officers here would arrest someone like this for holding up a fake badge even if the logic at the time seemed rather sound? The officers have a job and when the law is broken in front of them they will arrest you even if the intentions were good. They will do their job and arrest you, let the judge and prosecutor sort out the rest.

When Im speeding on the highway, then I will be given a ticket even if I was taking a loved one to the hospital which seems like a good reason to speed. In the same way, you will be arrested for displaying a fake badge even if your intentions were not to get shot at the time.

Now Im not saying this is a good or bad idea or one in which that is effective or not effective, however, it is an idea that will most likely get you arrested, charged and convicted of a crime that might be a felony in some areas of the nation.

[gvf]

Cars were getting their aluminum wheels and xeon lights ripped off of their cars on a street in NYC where I was living for awhile. I took off the computer a seal of the State of NY, enlarged it, printed underneath the name of the state agency I happen to work for (initials) and the year with more initials of the agency, had it laminated, and placed it nightly on my dash. It is very common in NYC to see official dash notices of all kinds, cops, firemen, priests, etc., most (excepting the police dash-cards of course) in a useless attempt to keep from getting ticketed by the millions of NY Traffic Police all over the place. VERY large fines (e.g. $65 is the cheapest parking fine - if by a meter, that's new tkt EVERY hour AND they come back. Cost of monthly parking in my neighborhood is $600/mo. Cost to buy a private parking space in condo building: e.g.: one building on 17th St, $225,000, just a space, no walls; there's a waiting-list). Anyway, you get the idea.

But mine was in hopes a thief might pass by car and choose another, with a slight worry I was a state official and ripping me off might cause him problems. Sort of like a steering wheel lock: they can be cut off (actually the steering wheel is cut) but it's like: "too much of hassle, I'll go to the next car")

Don't know if it helped but I never got ripped off, and the sign is not an attempt to impersonate any agency, just the state seal. Fact, I still use it in my home-city when not in NYC.

The CCW Badge though, that is too much and seems like it's a bit whacky-looking and might entice a DA to file charges in terms of the shooting itself if anything was problematic to begin with - or looked to be, or it might look bad to a jury in a civil case. No thanks.

PS: (can't resist this note about NYC Parking, it's so insane): 3 weeks ago while there, I was 3 min late moving my car for street cleaning, a 2x a week, hour and a half ritual, where everyone goes to their cars on the affected side of the street at 9:30 am or whatever, deftly pulls their car out of the space and double park directly across from the now empty space on opposite side of the one-way street; (where it's legal that day and all the spaces are taken. The police allow double-parking as long as you're in the car). It's so hard to get a space in NYC that everyone just leaves their cars when they find a space for days and weeks, but have to move it and quickly on street cleaning day - if you go around the block the space will be gone. After street cleaner leaves, all deftly and quickly pull back to the original space and sit in their cars for the next hour and a half. (It's legal to park if you're in the car so long as it was gone when cleaner was through).You read the papers, some do office work, others have breakfasts delivered, chat on their cells etc. At 11:00 am. all lock their cars and walk away in unison until next time.

I got my ticket after begging officers to give me a break to no avail. $65. If you are ticketed once for this violation and ticket is on your car, you won't be again. I took the ticket the cop had put in my hand and went back to my apt., realized I had the ticket and it was not on the car, rushed back, and BINGO: already had another. Total elapsed time: 8 min. Total cost: $130.

[David Armstrong]

David, I talked with my people for a good bit of time.
Perhaps that is the problem. You keep talking with “your people” and ignoring what all the other people are telling you.
You may be perceived by police or others as a threat to the person you are holding at gunpoint David. After all you are pointing a gun at them.
You keep failing to understand this point. When you are pointing a gun at another person YOU ARE A THREAT. If you do not immediately follow the nice police officer’s instructions, steps will be taken to counter that threat. Waving a badge doesn’t change that.
I know that the presence of a badge will cause the overwhelming majority of good guys to pause.
There is that false sense of security again. Let me give you a real eye-opener. Go talk with a few LEOs and give them this situation: you (the LEO) respond to a "shots fired, man with a gun" call. When you get there somebody you have never seen before, waving around a badge that does not appear to be from a local agency, is pointing a gun at a man on the ground, threatening him. You (LE) tell the guy to step back and drop the gun. The guy quickly turns toward you, pointing the gun your direction instead of doing what you tell them. What will you do?
My personal interviews have been unanimous.
And those who have not been personally interviewed by you seem almost unanimous in a completely opposite view. Why do you think that is? Why is everyone you talk to saying one thing, but virtually everyone else saying something else? Remember, it is not just me, you have a number of folks just on this thread that disagree with your position. If I got the count right, of those that have commented on the badge concept here there have been 17 that have been opposed to one degree or another, while only 3 have supported the idea. Review the threads that John posted, and you will find similar results.
If you walked up on the scene of a man holding a gun on another and he holds up a badge what does that mean to you David?
It means exactly the same thing as if I walk up on a scene and he doesn’t hold up a badge: that he needs to do exactly what the friendly policeman says and we’ll exchange pleasantries later when I find out what is going on. The badge doesn't change any of the dynamics.
If a policeman were to see me a bald, brown skinned, somewhat menacing looking, aggressively build man holding a gun on a cowering, begging, hands in the air criminal, he might make the wrong assumption.
You still have not answered this basic question--WHY are you holding this fellow at gunpoint? Particularly if he is cowering, begging, hands in the air, etc.? I can almost guarantee that if you are holding someone at gunpoint and waving a badge around that you will be considered to be impersonating an officer.
Lots of people out of LE have badges property inspectors, firefighter etc.
Which is why waving a badge around doesn’t mean much. I think you just proved my point. Having a badge doesn't automatically mean that you are a LEO, or even that you are a good guy.

[Xenia]

Just for the sake of thinking this situation out for myself here is what I would do.

If I had tried to stop someone but didn't need to shoot them and they had sat on the ground instead of running while the police were on thier way.....

if someone approached I would ask them to call 911 because the guy had tried to assault me. If I had called 911 already I would tell them I did and ask if they would call 911 too so I could better watch the guy.

If the guy wanted to run away, I would let him but I wouldn't suggest it.

When the police showed up. I would do exactly as they told me. Even if they wanted me to lay on the ground, etc.

I would however be quickly telling my side of the story! (I don't have a badge so that issue is moot for me.)

I might have a different point of view on this because of working at a Prison and having training in what to do in riots or if held hostage. We are taught to expect to be arrested at least briefly until authorities know what is what. That is for the safety of everyone.

[threegun]

David, Why do you continue to assume that I won't be following the nice policeman's orders? Why do you keep posting as if I plan on waving my gun around. You seem to think that I believe the badge is going to allow me to act irresponsibly. Perhaps your inability to understand what I posted has somehow biased your view. I mean heck I said several times that I would follow all orders by police and that the badge was only to give them and CCP'ers pause in the rare event that they might shoot prematurely.

Now I understand why your people keep coming up so opposite my people. You have this idea that A. I'm trying to play copper. B. You think I believe the badge is a "magic talisman" that will allow me to point my gun at cops and not follow instructions.

Perhaps that is the problem. You keep talking with “your people” and ignoring what all the other people are telling you.


So your people, internet commando's for all I know, should trump Tampa Police officers and Hillsborough County Sheriffs Deputies? Are you serious? Why would you insult fellow officers like that?

If you walk up on the situation of a man holding a gun and a badge on another person and it doesn't give you an idea of who is the good guy in this scenario there really is no point in arguing further. Every single person I have asked said they would pause. Its obvious you just want to argue, something you have a history of doing. You have made assumptions despite me explaining otherwise. Assumptions that I feel have biased you and your people.

[threegun]

NJtrigger,
I asked many officers in person including showing them the badge and permit and they seem to think that impersonation laws are not broken by simply holding up the badge and permit.

The first officer I asked (TPD I believe) even said before I asked that it would give him an idea of who the bad guy was. Of course he said that I had better not wave the gun around or act stupid with it (not that I would anyway). Still my point, that it causes a pause was reinforced. It has been reinforced many more time since. Until I posted here that is. Come to find out those arguing seem to be biased or otherwise adding stuff into the mix.

If you feel it is not proper or safe don't do it. I am convinced that it will work to keep me safe and that it isn't against the law. My sources are unanimous here. Thats all that matters for me.

[JohnKSa]

Still my point, that it causes a pause was reinforced. It has been reinforced many more time since.Did you ask any of these officers how common it was for an officer to arrive on the scene and immediately shoot people based only on the fact that they held a gun? Unless this is a problem then they're already pausing.

[threegun]

At last check there were hundreds of thousands of CCW holders in Florida alone. They may not be as professional as most LE. Just reading some of the posts here a TFL make my choice seem smart.

Bottom line is crapola happens. I feel it will help.

Did you ask any of these officers how common it was for an officer to arrive on the scene and immediately shoot people based only on the fact that they held a gun?

No. Most did say that they wouldn't just roll up and shoot. All said it would make them pause. I can only assume that it would tell them who the good guy is at a glance.

[JohnKSa]

Most did say that they wouldn't just roll up and shoot.Not surprising--this is the way they're trained. i.e. to take control of the situation with the minimum amount of violence required.

[threegun]

John, How are permit holders trained? How are security guards trained?

We used to pull a joke on gun shoppers at the Pawnshop I work. When someone would ask to see a gun, as they examined the gun, we would put our arms up and make our eyes open wide. It would look as if the shopper was holding up the shop. When they looked up the expression on their faces was priceless. One actually tossed the gun to me and backed up with his arms up. Well one day a customer says that we were going to get someone shot joking like that. It was decided that we should never do that again not because a police sniper with an automatic green light was hiding in the grassy knoll but because of customers who might have a concealed weapon and really think we were being robbed.

Not every policeman is perfect or professional although most are. While I feel most officers wait to long to shoot a few might not wait long enough. Still that leaves CCP holders and security guards......neither have the training. Many security guards are people who failed the police psychological test, your true wannabe cops.

I really don't worry about looking corny or people like David making assumptions of my intentions. It is legal according to the officers I asked and my research suggests that it will help identify myself as a good guy. That combined with proper gun handling I feel makes me safer from everyone carrying except for another criminal maybe.

[JohnKSa]

How are permit holders trained? How are security guards trained?Impossible to answer--the training varies widely from place to place. There may not even be training, and where it is, it's nothing like what LE gets.

I thought this was primarily about LE--are you really suggesting that pointing something shiny at a lightly trained, armed person is a good way NOT to get shot?

[threegun]

No I'm suggesting that holding a gun pointed at a badguy in one hand and a badge in the other will reduce your chances of getting shot by unprofessional LE or untrained civilians with guns.

[eltorrente]

This just seems like a bad idea all around.

So, what you're saying is that when the cops show up, instead of putting your gun down, you'll instead turn toward them and flash the badge, while continuing to hold the gun? If the cops are there, there is no need to continue holding the gun on the guy.

I can't envision why it would be a good idea to continue to stand there pointing the gun after the cops showed up. Turning and flashing a badge at them - just to make them think you're a cop and have the situation under control, seems pretty silly and risky.

[mikejonestkd]

The first words out of the LEO that arrives on the scene will NOT be " Gee, what a nice shiny badge you have there...hey, I have no idea who you are but go ahead and hold onto that gun while I take a look at that nice shiny badge you have...."

What they will say is "DROP THE GUN, ......NOW!!!" If you turn to show them the badge whilst continuing to hold onto the firearm they may not consider that to be a friendly non threatening thing to do...and it may be the last thing you do...


All in all it is a very bad idea.

[njtrigger]

You guys can go do what you want with fake badges if you believe thats the right thing to do. However, I strongly believe that you will either get shot and/or arrested. At the very least, you will be arrested and maybe your CCW taken away.

[threegun]

The bill, instead, prohibits an individual who is not a peace officer or a medical examiner from performing the duties of a peace officer or medical examiner; representing to another person that he or she is a peace officer or medical examiner for any unlawful purpose; or representing to another person that he or she is a peace officer or medical examiner with the intent to compel the person to do or refrain from doing any act against his or her will. Except as described below, a violation will remain a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year’s imprisonment, a maximum fine of $1,000, or both.



The bill makes it a felony punishable by up to four years’ imprisonment, a maximum fine of $5,000, or both, for an offender to perform the duties of a peace officer, or represent to another person that he or she is a peace officer, in order to commit or attempt to commit a crime. A sentence imposed for this offense may be ordered to be served consecutively to any term of imprisonment imposed for another violation arising from the same transaction.


Displaying your permit and CWP badge is not representing yourself as an officer. You are simply holding up your ID for responding LE. The fact that they and others will pause because they believe you could possibly be an officer isn't a crime. Unless you say I'm a cop or otherwise do LE duties there is no crime.

[threegun]

NJ, You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same. No problem. Still displaying a permit badge is no crime alone. It does give responders the idea of who is the good guy from a distance. To a man......and woman everyone I asked has said something to this effect. If it isn't illegal and does effect folks in my area the way I want it to and I feel safer.....why not? I don't care what others think in terms of it being corny. My goal is to not be shot by friendlies nothing more.

People make instant judgements based on what they see. I promise you that a black man is instantly judged as the perpretrator more times than not when in a conflict with say a white. Hispanics (like me) are going to get chosen as the perp more often than a white person. It is the facts of life and understandable since both commit higher levels of crime per capita. I want the LE officers instant judgement to be that I'm the good guy. Then he can sort it out using the evidence.

[eltorrente]

I want the LE officers instant judgement to be that I'm the good guy.

Well then you should put the gun down when they arrive!

Why in the world would you continue to hold your weapon on the badguy and flash a fake badge after the cops arrive?!?! They pull up, you put the gun down and step back - it's real simple. Instead you want to continue holding your weapon and turn and flash your badge.:confused:

There's no reason to continue holding your weapon at someone once they get there! You act like you NEED to keep standing there for as long as possible with your gun out... it just doesn't make any sense.

[JohnKSa]

Well then you should put the gun down when they arrive!That's short, sweet and to the point...

threegun,

Canvas your sources again and ask them which is more likely to prevent you from getting shot--immediately putting your gun down or flashing a badge.

[threegun]

Eltorrente,

Instead you want to continue holding your weapon and turn and flash your badge.

For the last time I never said this. In fact I said compliance with LE orders is obviously mandatory. How about you go back and read my posts before making assumptions.

Let me ask you buddy. How can you help prevent yourself from getting shot by a concealed weapon carrying civilian who sees you pointing a gun at a bad guy while waiting for police to arrive? If he sees you also holding a badge it allows him to know who the good guy is.

You guys seem to think that every police officer is professional and that LE are the only people out there with guns. It just makes sense IMO to let them know who the good guy is. My research is unanimous with both LE and civilians. A man holding a badge will get extra time as long as he follows directions. I believe that every minority CWP holder should carry one just to counter the first assumptions made by folks arriving on the scene. If you don't want to that fine. Just don't say that it won't work because deep down inside you would never shoot a man holding a badge unless he threatens you with the gun. Yeah I know you wouldn't shoot anyone unless they threaten you with a gun.......me neither. There are however folks that would shoot based on what the see initially especially when it involves a minority. I never expect a car accident but am insured just in case...........same thing.

[threegun]

John, Come on dude I said several times that you must comply regardless. Of course they said compliance was king. They aren't the real threat here. The over whelming majority of LE I feel bend over back wards not to shoot someone to the jeopardy of their own safety at times. They are not the problem as I have said. It is the few bad apples in LE and the hundreds of thousands of CCP holders and security guards who I worry about. Most have little if any training. Many security guards failed police psychology tests and couldn't get hired into LE. Just reading some of the post here at TFL should tell you that there are moron rambo types who carry concealed just itchin to light someone up. I don't want to be that someone. Holding my ID/Badge doesn't harm a thing and it works as intended..........according to my study.

[Tim Burke]

It isn't the absence of the badge in your support hand that will get you shot quickly, it's the presence of your gun in your dominant hand.
You want a pause? Then have your hands empty when the police arrive- that will get you a much longer pause than your badge.

[threegun]

Tim, Back to the (police are the only armed folks out there) thinking again I see. What about armed civilians? What about the dangerous felon you are holding a gunpoint? Put my leverage away before LE arrives? How about holding your ID/badge up until police arrive then follow instructions. Much safer IMO.

BTW just asked another armed guard in our shop shopping for a shotgun and he said the badge would cause him to pause also. It has just been unanimous here.

[newarcher]

I will just reiterate it this way.....

There are established laws on the books regarding CCW and most police cannot or aren't trained properly to understand those. Hence the disparity when you ask an officer where you can and cannot carry. Hence some of the stories and even some bogus convictions when the sheeple believe the cop because he is a cop and for no other reason. AKA....the defendant is a defendant so he must be guilty.

I think that you will get about a 90-10 chance of going to jail for impersonating a police officer with that badge. Most officers probably haven't even seen a CCW badge and frankly I think it is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

I think that in your scenario, it will go like this:
[police] When I rolled up to the scene of a man holding a perp at gunpoint, this defendant sticks a wallet with a badge up in the air as if he were an undercover police officer or an off duty police officer. Believing him to be a police officer due to the badge, I turned my attention to the man on the ground. Only later when I interviewed the defendant did I come to realize that the badge was a CCW badge after which I arrested the defendant for impersonating a police officer.
[sheeple witness 1] I saw the man with the gun show the police a wallet with a badge and I immediately thought he was a police officer.
[sheeple witness 2] The man with the gun on the man on the ground held up a badge when the police arrived and I thought immediately that he was a cop.
[jury member 1] I don't like guns and I think this guy is just a cowboy wanting to act like he is a police officer.
[jury members 2-12] Definitely a wanna be
[Court reporter reading the verdict] We find the defendent guilty of impersonating an officer
[Your new cellmate] Ooooohweee you sure smell pretty. Welcome to the cell of sodomy, I took the liberty of leaving you a pillow mint and a towel to bite down on.

Pulling out a badge and pointing it at a police officer is the stupidest idea EVER. First, if the police officer sees you holding a suspect at gunpoint and you move to point ANY object at him or her, you will probably get shot just for that. If you don't, every police officer in the land is going to arrest your sorry butt for impersonating because hardly anyone but yourself even knows CCW badges exist.

You may not get shot (even that is uncertain) but you will...with 90% certainty go to jail for impersonating.

New

[threegun]

frankly I think it is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.


Great then don't do it.

I think that you will get about a 90-10 chance of going to jail for impersonating a police officer with that badge.

Check the law. Simply holding up a CW badge with your CW permit to identify yourself as a permit holder is not illegal. Again you guys are knee jerk reacting to this idea. Think it through. The fact that everyone assumes you might be a cop because of the badge is irrelevent. The fact is you have not said you are a cop. You have not performed the duties of a cop. You don't have police equiptment. You are simply properly displaying your id for officers.

Pulling out a badge and pointing it at a police officer is the stupidest idea EVER.

Who suggested that? I said have it out and hold it UP for them to see. Only a not so smart fella would pull and point anything at police. If you would have read my posts you would know this though.

[mikejonestkd]

>>>You are simply properly displaying your id for officers<<<

You are not displaying your Id for the officers.

You are displaying a fake badge that means nothing to the arriving LEO's, it is not accepted anywhere as legal ID, that is why you will have to provide your CCW as real proof that you have a CCW.

[newarcher]

Zactly Mike....

It isn't the fact that you are holding up a badge....it is the perception of what that badge means. I hadn't ever heard of one until you mentioned it and I thought that even after that you were joking.

I have a cop friend who pulled a guy over and the guy couldn't find his wallet. As my friend was walking back to his car, the guy leans down and pulls something out of his car and raises it above his head. While he is doing so (but before he could get the wallet above his head), my buddy drew down on him thinking that he was pulling a gun. DUMB IDEA.

The motion of raising something above your head....during an already tense situation....is asking for trouble.

Do it if you want, but I am telling you that if you ever present that idiot badge to a police officer....they are probably going to arrest you based not on fact but upon what the implied meaning of presenting that badge is.

The police officer isn't going to tell the judge that you held up a badge when he arrived. He is going to tell the judge that he arrived to find a man holding a gun on a man and said man then held up what looked like a police badge to impersonate a cop. The mere fact that the police officer believed you were impersonating a cop with that badge is enough to screw you over. I could hold up a badge that said Mickey Mouse on it but the act and the reasonable interpretation of what that badge's use is governs what happens to you. I think that not only is it the most stupid F'n idea I ever heard, it is bordering on somewhat pathetic.

But go ahead and try it out...best of luck with the idea. I understand and appreciate your intentions but I think that if you ever practice using that badge around a cop, some bad things will happen.

New

[threegun]

You are displaying a fake badge that means nothing to the arriving LEO's, it is not accepted anywhere as legal ID, that is why you will have to provide your CCW as real proof that you have a CCW.

But Mike it does mean something to them. Why else would they say it would make them pause? My wallet has my CCP and the badge BTW. I am displaying my carry card to officers......along with the badge.

Newarcher, If you read you will see that the badge is already ready for responding LE. Only a brain dead idiot would go reaching about his person in a gun scenario. I would expect an officer to draw down on me if I was not responsible with my hands. I would expect to get shot if I wasn't responsible with my gun. Neither have anything to do with my badge.

[Capt Charlie]

While not all of this applies to your situation, you might find this both interesting and helpful, Threegun. It's from a model policy on off duty actions by LEO's established by the Public Agency Training Council (http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/off-duty.shtml).

4. Most survival-conscious officers have trained themselves NOT to intervene off-duty UNLESS their life or the life of another innocent party is IMMINENTLY in danger. In other words, you should only consider intervention when deadly force would be justified. You should not intervene just to make an arrest while off-duty. The decision to take action, beyond simply reporting, is a personal one and is not a requirement of this department.

5. If you decide you must get involved, attempt to have someone call 911 advising the operator that an off-duty officer is on scene. Have the caller inform the operator if you are armed. If possible, have them describe you and your clothing. This will effect the mindset of the responding officers. When uniformed police officers arrive, have your badge out and visible. (if you carry your shield while off-duty, some officers carry only their photo credentials). Do not rely on showing your identification as a means of providing any protection. At a distance, in dim light and under stress, your badge may not be seen. Or, the identification may not be given credibility if the responding officers do not recognize you personally.

6. Some trainers advise officers to hold their badge next to their gun for the best chance of being seen because the eyes of the responding officers are most likely to go immediately to your drawn firearm. You're probably safer to RE-HOLSTER your gun when other officers arrive, unless doing so would put you and the responding officers or innocent civilians, in jeopardy. Until the responding officers sort out who is who, your gun is your greatest personal liability.

7. If you have cover, maintain it. You can communicate verbally from there.

8. Make your hands visible. Having responding officers see that you are unarmed and non-threatening will work to calm them and protect you.

9. Verbally identify yourself as a police officer-not once and not in a normal tone of voice, but repeatedly and very loud. Keep shouting out: "POLICE! DON'T SHOOT! OFF-DUTY OFFICER!" until you get acknowledgment and directions as to what you should do. Remember, the noise and excitement of the scene, combined with stress induced auditory blocking may prevent responding officers from hearing you initially.

10. When commands are issued by the responding officers, follow them promptly and completely. Expect to be treated like a suspect until your law enforcement status is verified.

The question of holstering or laying down your weapon is debatable, but remember that a gun laying on the ground might result in the BG going for it, cops present or not.

[njtrigger]

You forgot #12...

12. Finally, the most important rule of all: If you have a gun in your hand, NEVER, EVER turn toward an on-duty officer


I think the first few rules of not getting involved unless its a life-threatening situation is the next most important rule. Try to avoid involvement if possible and only get involved as a last and final resort.

[threegun]

Thank you Capt.

have your badge out and visible.

According to many on this thread a badge doesn't work yet police advise officers in plain clothes to have them out in advance. It seems my LE sources who told me that having the badge out and visible would help prevent an accidental shooting were correct........see David ITYS.

The rest are common sense rules for handling a gun scenario and must be followed.

[Covert Mission]

I considered the CCW badge many years ago as a good idea in theory, and after a discussion much like this thread I rejected the idea.

There are good thoughts here nonetheless. All the advice that applies to off-duty and plainclothes cops to avoid getting shot should apply to the good citizen CCW carrier.

Don't be a superhero. If you stop the threat--with or without shots--and the perp tries to leave, let them if you can't stop them without further endangering someone innocent.

I wouldn't even prefer to handcuff someone (I am a reserve deputy) who is a felon in action, without another officer backing me up in case they resist. Convicts practice reversal and disarm maneuvers, and the moment your gun is in the holster and you're putting that first cuff on, things can go south bigtime with a real badguy. Of course, sometimes you have to, but why do it unless mandatory?

It's a very dangerous time if they choose not to comply...then it's a game of chicken. Of course, if they continue or escalate the threat to the point where you're in mortal jeopardy during their non-compliance, all bets are off.

When the cops arrive, gun goes down or is holstered, and hands go up. Let them sort it out, and cooperate.

Now, I have to reload this into my mental database!

[Tim Burke]

There is a difference... the off duty police officer's badge means something, and he won't have to answer any questions about whether or not he was impersonating a police officer.
Meanwhile I note you ignored 2 key points of Capt Charlie's post, even though they were highlighted in red:
Do not rely on showing your identification as a means of providing any protection.You're probably safer to RE-HOLSTER your gun when other officers arrive, unless doing so would put you and the responding officers or innocent civilians, in jeopardy. Until the responding officers sort out who is who, your gun is your greatest personal liability.
I also note that points 7 & 8 have been recommended in this thread.

[JohnKSa]

John, Come on dude I said several times that you must comply regardless.I'm not talking about compliance.

"immediately putting down your gun" is not the same thing as "putting down your gun when you're told to".

[kozak6]

What does your "badge" look like?


30.46 Sheriffs; motor vehicles color combination; badges; simulation prohibited; penalties.--

(2) For purposes of uniformity and in aid of the recognition of their official identity by the public, a badge in the shape of a five-pointed star with a replica of the great seal of Florida with the map of Florida superimposed thereon inscribed in the center is designated as the official badge to be worn by the sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of all counties of the state.

(4) It shall be unlawful for any person other than sheriffs and deputy sheriffs to wear an official sheriff's badge as prescribed herein, or to wear a badge or insignia of such similarity to the official sheriff's badge as to be indistinguishable therefrom at a distance of 20 feet; provided, nothing therein shall be construed to prevent members of any military, fraternal, or similar organization or any other law enforcement officer from wearing any insignia officially adopted or worn prior to the effective date of this section.



Could this be a potential problem?




843.085 Unlawful use of police badges or other indicia of authority.--It is unlawful for any person:

(1) Unless appointed by the Governor pursuant to chapter 354, authorized by the appropriate agency, or displayed in a closed or mounted case as a collection or exhibit, to wear or display any authorized indicia of authority, including any badge, insignia, emblem, identification card, or uniform, or any colorable imitation thereof, of any federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, or other criminal justice agency as now or hereafter defined in s. 943.045, which could deceive a reasonable person into believing that such item is authorized by any of the agencies described above for use by the person displaying or wearing it, or which displays in any manner or combination the word or words "police," "patrolman," "agent," "sheriff," "deputy," "trooper," "highway patrol," "Wildlife Officer," "Marine Patrol Officer," "state attorney," "public defender," "marshal," "constable," or "bailiff," which could deceive a reasonable person into believing that such item is authorized by any of the agencies described above for use by the person displaying or wearing it.



How about now?




843.08 Falsely personating officer, etc.--A person who falsely assumes or pretends to be a sheriff, officer of the Florida Highway Patrol, officer of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, officer of the Department of Environmental Protection, officer of the Department of Transportation, officer of the Department of Financial Services, officer of the Department of Corrections, correctional probation officer, deputy sheriff, state attorney or assistant state attorney, statewide prosecutor or assistant statewide prosecutor, state attorney investigator, coroner, police officer, lottery special agent or lottery investigator, beverage enforcement agent, or watchman, or any member of the Parole Commission and any administrative aide or supervisor employed by the commission, or any personnel or representative of the Department of Law Enforcement, and takes upon himself or herself to act as such, or to require any other person to aid or assist him or her in a matter pertaining to the duty of any such officer, commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084; however, a person who falsely personates any such officer during the course of the commission of a felony commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084; except that if the commission of the felony results in the death or personal injury of another human being, the person commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.



I would imagine that holding a criminal at gunpoint could be considered acting as such.

I am not a lawyer, but looking at the law as a layman, it would seem to me that the law is stacked against you here.

[threegun]

The badge isn't official and looks nothing like an official badge. The fact that you feel defending yourself from an attack and holding the perp for police is doing police work makes you an impersonator as well should you have to defend yourself. For me and most folks defending yourself from a forcable felony is not police work.

John, The point is not to be stupid when officers arrive. If it is possible to put the gun away fine. If it is possible to put the gun down fine (lets not forget there is a criminal down there). The badge only gives arriving officers and witnessing ARMED CIVILIANS an idea of who is who.

Tim, I didn't ignore those. In earlier posts I said that you must comply with all orders from LE and not make any threatening movement towards LE. All of us agree on that point. I posted the fact that officers in plain clothes are trained to display their badge to try and convince many of you who say its stupid or won't work, that it will work and isn't stupid.

[newarcher]

One other thing that I haven't seen mentioned....

That perp that is ****** because you stopped him,....if his lawyer is smart.....is going to ruin your day by saying that you used that badge to impersonate an officer when "ARRESTING" his client--as a way of getting his client off.

Further evidence it is a bad idea.

You seem set on this trainwreck of an idea so best of luck with it.

New

[David Armstrong]

David, Why do you continue to assume that I won't be following the nice policeman's orders? Why do you keep posting as if I plan on waving my gun around.
I make no assumptions. I do make the point that if you exactly what the nice policeman says the badge doesn’t matter. If you don’t, the badge doesn’t matter. That is the point, the only point--THE BADGE DOESN’T MATTER.
You seem to think that I believe the badge is going to allow me to act irresponsibly.
Quite the contrary, I believe that the badge does not matter, and thinking it does gives one a false sense of security.
Now I understand why your people keep coming up so opposite my people.
You seem to keep wanting to make this a “my people” discussion. Let’s keep it straight--it is more of a your people versus virtually everybody else. You can try to color that any way you want, but the overwhelming majority of folks that have expressed a viewpoint on this issue disagree with you.
You have this idea that A. I'm trying to play copper. B. You think I believe the badge is a "magic talisman" that will allow me to point my gun at cops and not follow instructions.
There you go making things up again. Nowhere have I said that either of those was my idea.
So your people, internet commando's for all I know, should trump Tampa Police officers and Hillsborough County Sheriffs Deputies? Are you serious? Why would you insult fellow officers like that?
Again, this is not a “my people” thing, no matter how hard you might want to make it so. The majority of folks here, and in other threads, have come down against your idea. As for an insult, I think that you are probably fudging things a bit, given the fact that your claims are contradicted by every other source. So perhaps it is you that is being insulting trying to make others believe that your local LE actually believe in this nonsense you are spouting.
If you walk up on the situation of a man holding a gun and a badge on another person and it doesn't give you an idea of who is the good guy in this scenario there really is no point in arguing further. Every single person I have asked said they would pause.
If I walk up on a situation I will pause anyway, badge or not, until I make some determinations. Having a badge doesn’t change that, not having it doesn’t change it.
Its obvious you just want to argue, something you have a history of doing.
LOL!! Pot, meet kettle! Virtually everyone here has told you that you are wrong. Other threads disagree with you. The only support you seem to be getting is from an unverified source that you claim. Yet you keep trying to convince us all what a good idea it is. Now, who just wants to argue??
You have made assumptions despite me explaining otherwise.
No, I have avoided making assumptions, something you might want to try. You have made a statement: “In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting.” I have suggested the statement is somewhat problematic and explained why. Others have also pointed out that the concept is faulty. No assumptions needed.

Eltorrente capped it off pretty good when he posts, “There's no reason to continue holding your weapon at someone once they get there! You act like you NEED to keep standing there for as long as possible with your gun out... it just doesn't make any sense.” It just doesn’t make any sense. That is it in a nutshell, IMO.

You start off with the idea that you are going to want to hold somebody at gunpoint until the police arrive. Bad idea. Then you assume that having the badge will somehow change the way people react to what you are doing. Bad idea. Then you claim that your intent is to make people think you are a LEO so they will pause before shooting at you. Again, bad idea. And that is not me or “my people”, it is most folks that have commented. You go ahead and do whatever you want, but please don’t try to convince others it is a good idea.

[David Armstrong]

According to many on this thread a badge doesn't work yet police advise officers in plain clothes to have them out in advance. It seems my LE sources who told me that having the badge out and visible would help prevent an accidental shooting were correct........see David ITYS.
It seems you failed to notice the most important part of that, and instead keyed only on the one small segment that taken out of context seems to support your position. Let’s check it out a bit more in depth:

>>If you decide you must get involved, attempt to have someone call 911 advising the operator that an off-duty officer is on scene. Have the caller inform the operator if you are armed. If possible, have them describe you and your clothing.<<
Note the advice is to give LE information regarding clothing, personal description, etc. It is this that “....will effect the mindset of the responding officers.”

>>(if you carry your shield while off-duty, some officers carry only their photo credentials). <<
Note again that the badge is of so little importance that some officers don’t even carry it around with them off-duty. In fact, some agencies are even recommending you only carry your creds and not carry the badge at all as an officer-safety issue.

>>Do not rely on showing your identification as a means of providing any protection.<<
And that is exactly what I’ve been saying. Assuming the badge matters gives one a false sense of security.

[jrkarp]

Displaying your permit and CWP badge is not representing yourself as an officer. You are simply holding up your ID for responding LE. The fact that they and others will pause because they believe you could possibly be an officer isn't a crime. Unless you say I'm a cop or otherwise do LE duties there is no crime.

I disagree.

Flashing a badge while holding a person at gunpoint is clearly intended to give the impression that you are LE. A reasonable person, under those circumstances, would be led to believe that you are a cop. A reasonable police officer, under those circumstances, would be led to believe that you are a cop.

I'm not LE, but I am a lawyer.

Also, should one need to shoot someone, the fact that you are carrying a CCW badge will be used against you in the inevitable civil suit that will follow. The plaintiff's attorney will try to paint you as a "cop wannabe" who is out looking for trouble. The jury (most of whom are probably not gun owners and don't CCW), will look at you, the guy with the gun who shot the plaintiff, and look at your pretend badge, and agree with him.

ETA: My idea of how not to get shot by the good guys is to, upon arrival of the police, place the gun on the ground, step back, place your hands on your head, and await further instructions. The LE will have their weapons drawn and the bad guy will be covered.

[threegun]

David, You claim not to assume. You claim to take what I said only. Yet you assume that I haven't called police with a description and explaination of the circumstances. You assume that I intend to keep my gun out even if the situation allows it to be put away. You assume that I might point my gun a police or otherwise improperly handle it.

I never said I wouldn't do those things and later added that I would.

You keep saying as fact that LE wouldn't shoot without provokation by the person with the gun. I don't completely agree with this. I believe there are a few bad apples that might act prematurly. Someone might think that the badguy is about to become a victim. What you fail to even consider are the thousands of armed civilians with little or no training and the thousands of armed guards many of which have failed police interviews for mental reasons.

Well you assume that proper gun handling alone will keep you safe from everyone. I will use my badge and safe gun handling just to make sure. Everybody is happy.

Let me ask you though David. If you found yourself compelled to hold the bad guy at gun point (perhaps after having shot them) and there were civilians around you what would you do? How would you prevent the CCP holder from assuming that you are the badguy?

[eltorrente]

Threegun, give it up.

NOONE agrees with you, and we all think it's a ridiculous idea to flash your little badge. You've got Dirty Harry delusions about taking down and holding criminals. You're just a guy with a gun and a silly badge, looking for reasons to use them.

Let the cops hold the criminals, and just call 911 when you see a badguy. Pull your gun and shoot him if he's trying to shoot you or your family. No need to mull over scenarios where you go around apprehending felons. Most people with those thoughts end up being.. you guessed it: COPS!

[threegun]

JrKarp,
Every officer that I have shown it to disagree. Two family members (HCSO) who love me and would never want me to get in trouble told me that as long as I wasn't playing cop, saying I was a cop, or using official cop badges I was fine.

Since I will only shoot your client if he is trying to commit a forcable felony on me and would never actively play hero (unless my family was in danger) I could never be convicted of playing cop.

What would a man holding a badge and gun on another man make you think? Please don't make assumptions just imagine turning the corner and seeing a man holding a gun and badge on another man. What does it say to you?

[eltorrente]

What would a man holding a badge and gun on another man make you think? Please don't make assumptions just imagine turning the corner and seeing a man holding a gun and badge on another man. What does it say to you?

That would tell me that he is pretending to be a cop, which is illegal! The impression you are trying to make to anyone that sees you is that you are a cop and have everything under control.

Whether you have a badge or not doesn't matter much to the passerby. If you are holding your gun to some guy and keeping him "under control", then anyone would assume that the guy on the ground was a badguy and would call the cops (the REAL cops).

Heck, if he was flashing a badge, I would assume he was a cop and would probably leave the area - because a real cop of course would have the rest of his cop buddies on the way and I wouldn't try to assist him by calling. Hopefully you can juggle your phone, your fake badge, and your gun all at the same time.

[threegun]

Eltorrente, Do you know me? I just can't wait for you to post just how you "know" that I have dirty harry whatever.

I don't want to get shot by friendlies......comprende? Said such several times. Why can't you understand that? You think the idea stinks good for you. You think its not needed great. You think its illegal awesome. DON'T USE ONE. Really quite simple. Just grow up and cut out the insults.

Some of you think it isn't needed. I disagree. Some of you think it will work but get me arrested. I disagree.

Police are told to display their badge for a reason. I believe that reason is to help folks identify them as a friendly which will help prevent being shot by friendlies.

[eltorrente]

Police are told to display their badge for a reason. I believe that reason is to help folks identify them as a friendly which will help prevent being shot by friendlies.

The reason is to help folks identify them as COPS! You know, REAL cops. It's ILLEGAL to pretend to be a cop. A ccw badge doesn't prove you are friendly, or a non-criminal, it only implies to those you flash it at that you are a cop. :rolleyes:

[threegun]

Right on it helps people identify them as cops or the good guy or the one not to shoot. The point is it helps identify the good guy. My badge identifies me as a good guy with a permit. It suggests to all but the few hard headed men on this thread that the man with the badge most likely is the good guy. This might not be relevant to professionals like David Armstrong and most LE officers as they won't shoot anyway. It does address the folks who might not be so professional.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to provide some facts to back your insults.

[eltorrente]

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to provide some facts to back your insults.

You provided several pages of facts already.

You wanna apprehend felons and wave your badge around, and are trying to convince everyone that it's a good idea. You're gonna do it anyway despite what we think, so go for it. Just quit seeking approval or justification because it's obvious that noone agrees with you.

[threegun]

I didn't think you could prove it buddy.

Just quit seeking approval or justification because it's obvious that noone agrees with you.

I sought my approval years ago from LE officers. I have checked a few times since just to be sure. I have also talked to many CCP holders as part of my job envolves selling guns and I meet a ton of armed people. The fact that you guys disagree means zilch to me. I just wanted to share the idea. You don't like it like I said before don't get one.

BTW I can't remember a single person saying that they wouldn't give extra time to the badge holder automatically. Yet you guys come on here and say it means nothing to you. Thats okay it means something to people in this area though.

[eltorrente]

The fact that you guys disagree means zilch to me.

Hehe - apparantly that isn't the case. I think you care quite a bit, in fact, otherwise you wouldn't spend 5 pages arguing your points to those who disagree. :p

[threegun]

Eltorrente, You lived in a haunted house and by your own admission are paranoid with a gun. I might need two badges for you LOL.

I like to debate with folks who disagree its fun, so what's your point.

[eltorrente]

Eltorrente, You lived in a haunted house and by your own admission are paranoid with a gun.

I'm just paranoid of an AD. That house I lived in WAS haunted btw - you would have been creeped out, too. :D

[threegun]

Just lightening things up dude. Safer is better.

I don't believe in ghosts though...................:eek:

[eltorrente]

I don't believe in ghosts though...................

Yeah, well you're wrong! :D

[Tim Burke]

I don't believe in ghosts though.That's OK, threegun; ghosts don't believe in CCW badges either.

[MacGille]

Just because you have a CCW doesn't give you any police powers. Period.

If you have a perp at gunpoint my question would be why? If he posed a deadly threat to you or another with you, then why is he still alive? If he didn't pose a deadly threat then why did you draw?

A CCW is a license to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, nothing else. It gives you no more powers that any other citizen has. Pointing a weapon at another is a crime called assault with a deadly weapon. It is a felony and can get you serious time in the nearest slammer.

Bottom line is, don't draw unless necessary to save your life. If you do draw, shoot, to kill. Any other scenario is stupid. A ccw will land you in prison if you think it grants any powers.:eek:

[threegun]

Macgille, So you see no scenario that you might be compelled to hold someone at gunpoint? A civilian involved shooting is rare. We still carry though. Even more rare is the scenario that may have us covering a bad guy. I choose to be prepared for both unlikely events. I carry a spare mag which I'll likely never need. Heck statistically speaking I'll almost never need more than 3 shots but I still carry my magazines to full 15 shot capacity. The point is many things armed civilians ready for are rare still we prepare for them.

I will try to hold someone if they have tried to molest or kidnap my kids as I don't want them to escape. Someone who has attempted an armed robbery (on me or mine) perhaps at my workplace for sure. Someone who I have had to shoot as I don't want them to change the evidence or manipulate police. Only if safely possible and the criminal complies (except for the child molester he's staying period).

And no I don't go looking for crime so that I can hold the person like LE. It is only to keep me safer in that rare shooting that I decide to stay and hold.

Been carrying since 1992 the only time I held someone at gunpoint (in public)came well before that. Me and my cousin held two car burglars at gunpoint only because they wouldn't run. My cousin was holding a shotgun on them and had convinced them that if they moved they would get it. I was armed with a handgun which I was able to put away when the first TPD car rounded the corner (my cousin still had them covered until police car stopped).

[threegun]

Macgille,

Bottom line is, don't draw unless necessary to save your life. If you do draw, shoot, to kill. Any other scenario is stupid.

So if the guy stops at the sight of your gun shoot anyway? Should I have shot the man that pulled and pointed a gun at my coworker after I realized that it was a bb gun? Which happened to be milliseconds before the first shot.

I think you meant don't draw unless you are justified in shooting and prepared to shoot. I certainly hope you would stop when the threat is gone even if that happens before your shot but after your draw.

Still even if you shoot to kill handguns are pitiful instant killers. You gonna leave a wounded bad guy possibly armed to recover his weapon? There are many scenarios you seem to not have thought about starting with what to do if you draw and bad guy complies instantly. If you shoot him you will likely go to jail.

[WIN71]

I'll give you one thing. You are persistent. Must make for lively entertainment around the dinner table on Thanksgiving at your place........

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I have a big Ghostbusters pin that I got when the movie first came out. I will wave that when Bill Murray, Dan Ackroyd, Ernie and Egan arrive.

[jrkarp]

JrKarp,
Every officer that I have shown it to disagree. Two family members (HCSO) who love me and would never want me to get in trouble told me that as long as I wasn't playing cop, saying I was a cop, or using official cop badges I was fine.

Flashing a badge while holding someone at gunpoint is playing cop. Period. I really don't care what your family members told you. Looking at the law in my state, which is similar to pretty much every state, you could be charged with impersonating a police officer.

Just because you may know a few cops who wouldn't arrest you under those circumstances doesn't mean that other cops wouldn't. And if you are arrested, and the DA wants to prosecute, the charge will stick. I'm in a better position to tell you that little detail than your cop friends/relatives.

Since I will only shoot your client if he is trying to commit a forcable felony on me and would never actively play hero (unless my family was in danger) I could never be convicted of playing cop.

If you are holding someone at gun point and you flash a badge, that is playing cop. If you shoot someone and flash a badge to the first responders as they pull up, that is playing cop.

There is no reason to flash a badge other than to give the impression that you are a cop. If you want to give the impression that you are a good guy and not a bad guy, the best move is to drop your weapon, take 1 step back, and place your hands on top of your head.

What would a man holding a badge and gun on another man make you think? Please don't make assumptions just imagine turning the corner and seeing a man holding a gun and badge on another man. What does it say to you?

If I turn a corner and see a guy holding a gun and a badge on another man, what do I think? "He must be a cop."

I also noticed that you skipped my comment on how bad this could be if you are sued after shooting someone.

[threegun]

Seud! I did answer that. I would never go out and look for crime (playing cop). If crime finds me in the form of a forcible felony and I am forced to shoot someone it will be real easy to prove that I was defending myself from the plaintiff. Just as easy as saying the badge/CCP combo is so that folks know that I am legally carrying and don't prematurely shoot the person with a gun.

See its when you guys twist it with this preconceived misguided notion that people carry fake badges because they want to play cop that it becomes wrong or illegal.

Using a badge to detain someone against their will is illegal. I'm not using the badge to detain them I'm using a gun. The badge as stated many times is to let folks know that I'm the good guy.

[threegun]

Win71, Just having fun man LOL since I can't plat cop anymore :D.

Glenn, That was funny.

[newarcher]

Threeguns latest post:

Seud! I did answer that. I would never go out and look for crime (playing cop). If crime finds me in the form of a forcible felony and I am forced to shoot someone it will be real easy to prove that I was defending myself from the plaintiff. Just as easy as saying the badge/CCP combo is so that folks know that I am legally carrying and don't prematurely shoot the person with a gun.

See its when you guys twist it with this preconceived misguided notion that people carry fake badges because they want to play cop that it becomes wrong or illegal.

Using a badge to detain someone against their will is illegal. I'm not using the badge to detain them I'm using a gun. The badge as stated many times is to let folks know that I'm the good guy.


Before I even get to first, how old are you? Have you ever studied the law...case law specifically? The rule of a shooting is that it is NEVER EVER easy to prove anything. Let's suppose you shoot a black man and the responding cop is a black man who hates white men (just an example folks) and feels that the days of whites shooting blacks and getting away with it are over....guess what? You are going to jail. All that he has to do is interpret your statements and the evidence one way and you go to jail. The prosecutors tend to take what the cops say with extreme weight and you lose. Get a DA that is anti-gun and your chances of skating go down exponentially.

We just had a case here in Atlanta where a builder came onto a homeowner's property and put a knife to the homeowner's son's face and threatened to kill him. The homeowner was on his way home when he got the call from his son telling him what happened. The HO told the son to go inside and lock the doors and called the police himself. The hapless damned police took their time getting there and the HO arrived first. The builder came at the homeowner from the property next door, refused to show his hands, and kept approaching even as the HO was retreating and pulling his gun. The builder kept coming even after the HO, not wanting to shoot the builder fired a warning shot. The builder was shot and killed and the homeowner is now serving 20-30 years for murder 1...that is beyond me. The HO stayed on scene and cooperated in every way and was still convicted. The prosecutor refused to grant the illegal alien who saw the whole thing a deal (to avoid punishment for being illegal) so they lost that testimony.

First, if you are still holding the gun when the police get there...you are possibly, if not probably, going to get shot regardless. I would never be holding a gun when the police arrived.

Second, no one is twisting anything. The problem with your dumba$$ badge isn't your intentions or what you perceive your intentions to be. The end result will be what everyone in the immediate area perceived your actions to be. When 10 people get up and tell the judge and jury that they thought you were a cop because of your badge, it doesn't matter what your intentions were. Remember, the law isn't always fair and there is a thing called reasonable interpretation. There is an almost unanimous consensus of people on this board, stating that it is a stupid idea and will have you arrested for impersonating....yet your press on.

Lastly, when the BG's lawyer gets done with you, you WILL HAVE USED THAT BADGE TO DETAIN THE SUSPECT. That lawyer is going to have all 10 of those witnesses that said they thought you were a cop testify and you will be screwed. Revenge from a prison cell on the man who captured him, is just something a ****** off felon would love to do. You working to pay him for violating his civil rights or some nonsense like that is just what the current legal system would do to you.

DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB idea. But like someone said, you are listening from bad advice from a family member. I imagine that person is as tired of arguing with you over it as we are and probably just said "okay, I would hesitate" so that you would stop talking to them about it.

I smell a troll on this one folks

New

[threegun]

There is an almost unanimous consensus of people on this board, stating that it is a stupid idea and will have you arrested for impersonating....yet your press on.

Likewise in person here unanimous that it won't.

DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB idea. But like someone said, you are listening from bad advice from a family member. I imagine that person is as tired of arguing with you over it as we are and probably just said "okay, I would hesitate" so that you would stop talking to them about it.

I smell a troll on this one folks

It wouldn't be proper to post a new thread and not debate on it. BTW If you smell a troll take a bath. A troll posts usually with insults and smart arsed remarks.....as you have done. They just try to stir up folks and then run. I have endured many dissenting opinions with class including yours. Instead of striking back I have continued to post why I feel the dissenters are wrong. The only man who posted anything other than his opinion was David Armstrong who asked his LE colleagues. I feel that he biased his sources but thats my opinion and cannot be proven. What I do have on my side are police and sheriffs officers/deputies who believe that it doesn't rise to impersonation (yes two are family....so what makes me more convinced having them agree with the others) and that it would help keep me safe. I also have tons of ordinary civilians many of which carry concealed agreeing that they would give extra precaution before shooting. So you and a few others disagree and I'm supposed to believe you guys? Give me a break. How about calling your states attorney and asking a non biased question? Post the results. If they say I'm wrong then I will call my SA and concede. Until then just as you defend what you believe is right I will do the same. That doesn't make us trolls. Saying what you think doesn't make you right. Calling me a troll when you should be posting something besides opinion to back your claim ain't good.

Posting a shooting that went bad for the good guy has nothing to do with this thread.

First, if you are still holding the gun when the police get there...you are possibly, if not probably, going to get shot regardless. I would never be holding a gun when the police arrived.


My only first hand experience suggests you are wrong again. My cousin didn't get shot by police officers and he had a shotgun on the bad guys. I was able to put my gun away as police arrived. In most videos I have seen most cops bend over back wards not to shoot even if it puts their lives in danger by doing so. My badge is not for these guys but for those that might.

[threegun]

Oh and Newarcher I can't worry about getting sued or prosecuted for protecting myself. If I do it will cause me to make decisions based on that fear and not on the actual event at hand. If my gun goes boom it will be because I had no safe option. If i go to jail like that homeowner for saving myself so be it. It is still better than getting knifed to death.

[Capt Charlie]

Guys, I think we're all going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush here. 140 posts, folks are seriously polarized and the debate has become static.

Now we've descended into name calling. Time to put this one to bed, methinks.

Closed.