USMC Tng. and Police Academy Tng.

[Spade Cooley]

I went through a police academy where there was stress but the stress was directed with a purpose in mind. Years later I visited the same police academy and noticed a lot of changes. It was more like a Marine Corps. Boot Camp, Recruits were knocking on the door and the D I within was saying, "I can't hear you." There was a lot of yelling and screaming around the academy without much thought to directed stress or training the men to think on their feet.

The other day I saw films on Marine Corp. Boot Camp. There were DIs running around screaming constantly looking like a bunch of idiots. You could not even tell what the were yelling. in my opinion this type of supervision accomplishes nothing. You want leadership, obediace to orders, and a foot soldier who can think on his feet, not some scarred rabbit. I was in the Army and don't remember anything comming close to the scream fest I heard in the USMC. These guys didn't learn a thing from what I saw. I guess they were trying to turn them into warriors or killers but I couldn't tell it .

Now they are in Iraq trying to police the streets like a municapal police Dept. This in not the nature of a soldier and they are not trained for it. We could do a lot better in trainning both groups.

[FM12]

Was this in a southern state, perhaps?

[kgpcr]

Do not even think about knocking the way we Marines are trained. I went through it and am glad i did. when there is a tough job to do they send in the Marines. The other branches are good as well but when it came to clean out Falluja they sent the Marines and i could go on and on. to you it does not make sense but at the end of boot the when you get your Eagle Globe and Anchor you suddenly notice you have tears in your eyes and you cant look at your DI. when you finaly do you see he has a tear as well. You are now part of something that stays with you for life.

[SeanShot]

They're focusing on training them to be leaders, and as leaders, you have to take a lot of information, make sense of it, and react. That's probably why there's so much screaming, according to you.

[Steve in PA]

Unless you've been through Marine Corps boot camp (and I have), you wouldn't understand the concept or idea behind it. Marine Corps training specifically trains you to think on your feet.

In fact, there was an article not to long ago commenting on how the army wants to be more like the Marine Corps in its training.

I guess all that soft army training doesn't work. Just because you couldn't tell what the DI's were yelling, doesn't mean the recruits couldn't tell.

One thing about Marine Corps boot camp.......if you make it through that, you can make it through anything.

[SeanShot]

Isn't going to like WestPoint military academy a step up from boot camp, since they're supposed to put you through Basic+?

[STLRN]

kgpcr

About half the forces that were in Fallujah for Al Jafar were army heavy forces.

[saltydog452]

If that film you mentioned was 'The DI' with Jack Webb as the DI, what you saw wasn't all Hollywood.

That film was made with the support of the USMC and, in fact, most of the enlisted 'actors' were active duty US Marines.

On of my sons is an Army MP. There are, acccording to him, lots of similarities with Military and civilian police work.

Since Drug mfgr can led to consfication of property, real and personal, coke cookers who don't want the family farm siezed, often cook/grow their property on Federal land. Be it a National Forest, BLM land or on Military Reservations. Drug production around Federal Land is kinda high.

There are major differencies also. An MP Company is very heavily armed and many corfrontations aren't between 'Police and Suspect', but rather between 'Soldier and Enemy'. There is a different mind-set. In Bosnia, Croatia and, I think, Sarajevo, he made patrols in an APC with the MG in a ring mount cleared and manned.

Keeping the peace in a Military context I suspect is a tad different that in a civilian community.

It isn't that cut and dried, but maybe you get the idea.

I have never been a Police Officer, city, state, or federal. .

salty.

[Spade Cooley]

The film I saw was a recent documentary of USMC Boot camp. It was one hour of solid screaming by D IS, usually two at a time. I didn't see one thing taught the entire hour. I was wondering what the purpose of it was. If you saw this one, you would remember it.

I didn't see anything in Jack Webb's film that was anything close. His movie flattered the Corps. I can understand some built in stress and yelling, but this was way over the top. They screamed at the Boots even when they did it right. They looked more like idiots rather than leaders or instructors.

[ConcealCarryNY]

On the surface it may look like alot of screaming and yelling and possibly the Police academy is trying to imitate some form of USMC boot camp but I can tell you from personal experiance that every single aspect of Marine Corps basic training is strictly controlled and choreographed to get specific responses and development. The police force may think they are copying drill instructors but chances are they are copying the hollywood version.

The film I saw was a recent documentary of USMC Boot camp. It was one hour of solid screaming by D IS, usually two at a time. I didn't see one thing taught the entire hour. I was wondering what the purpose of it was. If you saw this one, you would remember it.


I am guessing that the editors had something to do with that. Also you are comparing a program to train civil employees to the training regime to mold teenagers fresh from high school into a cohesive fighting unit. That can only be done by strict discipline. I went thru boot camp and although we got screamed at alot there was alot of knowledge passed and I doubt that any other system could teach a person so many different things about so many different subjects. You can think what you want but if you experianced it first hand you would see it is a whole lot more then yelling. I am sorry you are so misinformed

[easyG]

When I went through Basic back in 1986 the Drill Sgt's screamed and yelled at us just like the Marine DI's do.
In fact, IIRC, in the 80's the U.S. Army sent Drill Sgt's to the USMC to study and learn from them, and then practice that method in the Army.

BUT, it was not just about yelling and screaming in an uncontrolled and pointless manner.
The yelling and screaming was basically for shock value and to quickly establish command and control.

It also only lasted a few days.
After a few days the Drill Sgt's no longer yelled and screamed.
They were more like father figures.
The yelling and screaming and "in you face" stuff is really just a peformance for the first day or so for the newbies.

[Walter]

The other day I saw films on Marine Corp. Boot Camp. There were DIs running around screaming constantly looking like a bunch of idiots. You could not even tell what the were yelling. in my opinion this type of supervision accomplishes nothing.
Okay.........
How about "Scoreboard", just 'recent' history. Let's see.....
Guadalcanal?
Tarawa?
Iwo Jima?
Chosin Reservoir?
Khe Sahn?
Hue City?
"...accomplishes nothing."
Hmmm......

Semper Fi,
Walter

[FM12]

Hey Spaade, still wanting to know what state? Sounds like an instructor I know, up in NE Alabama, perhaps?

[Antipitas]

The other day I saw films on Marine Corp. Boot Camp. There were DIs running around screaming constantly looking like a bunch of idiots. You could not even tell what the were yelling. in my opinion this type of supervision accomplishes nothing.
Imagine, if you will, you are in a firefight. The noise is horrendous. People are shooting at you and hopefully, you are shooting back. Possibly explosives are going off around you and around the enemy. Lots of stress!

An officer is yelling commands. Several Sergeants are yelling commands. Even more corporals are yelling commands. Who do you obey?

The time to learn this, is not when you are under fire. You learned this basic stuff in boot camp. From 1, 2 or 3 DI's running around shouting and screaming seemingly conflicting orders. I can guarantee that you will understand what each is saying. Perhaps not at first, but you will learn, and in short order! You will learn to think on your feet. You will learn to instantly obey a given set of orders from a given authority. You will learn to do this under great stress... All before you ever fire a weapon in armed conflict.

But you never went through Boot training in my Corps. To you it looks pointless. Silly. Idiotic even. But I guaran-damn-tee you, there is a distinct purpose for this: To accomplish the mission and your own personal survival.

This depends upon you learning what is being taught, in boot.

Es Sprit de Corps and Semper Fidelis are much more than simple slogans. :cool:

[eltorrente]

This thread is stupid.

Does someone think the Marines aren't trained well enough?!?!?!

"OMG those guys were yelling at the recruits. That isn't nice and that isn't how to teach people" - Are you friggin kidding me?!?!

Idiots.

[Capt Charlie]

Al hit it on the head with this:

To you it looks pointless. Silly. Idiotic even. But I guaran-damn-tee you, there is a distinct purpose for this: To accomplish the mission and your own personal survival.

That also applies, to a lesser degree, to law enforcement. But there are other purposes as well. When you graduate from boot, or from a police academy, you experience an unparalleled sense of accomplishment and pride in both yourself and in your branch or department. It can't really be described; it has to be experienced.

There's one other purpose for law enforcement: We don't want people who are only half-hearted about this career. We want sincere people who really want it. Those with a ho-hum attitude need to be weeded out, and a boot camp style academy definitely does that ;).

[TwoXForr]

Remaining calm while someone is yelling and screaming at you sounds like a good skill for a police officer to have.

[ConcealCarryNY]

Okay.........
How about "Scoreboard", just 'recent' history. Let's see.....
Guadalcanal?
Tarawa?
Iwo Jima?
Chosin Reservoir?
Khe Sahn?
Hue City?
"...accomplishes nothing."
Hmmm......

Semper Fi,
Walter

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Scorch]

Just a quick comment on USMC boot camp-
In boot camp, recruits are taught to tolerate stress of overwhelming confusion and to act as directed, not to think. This is EXTREMELY valuable in a combat or other high-stress situation. Do as you are told by your superiors, not the natural self-preservation voice in your head. Act, don't react. Obey, don't think and reason. You will have to trust me on this one, it is absolutely essential in combat. When rounds start flying and you need to be somewhere else, how else do you get your men out of a safe hole and take the enemy positions?

As far as your conclusion that they are misassigned when sent to police the streets of Baghdad or other cities, the results are directly related to the type of training they received. In a typical law enforcement situation, officers observe and intervene if laws are broken. Since there is no "law of the land" in Iraq currently, the military will observe up to a point, then act in the way they were trained to act. They are trained to kill, not trained to defuse civil disagreements and enforce minor regulations. Their training tells them that when confronted with a threat, kill the threat. Not appropriate in a police situation.

Summarizing your statements, the forces we have policing the streets in Iraq are not trained to do so. They are trained to fight. We could have done a better job in the takeover of the country. We didn't because the military is trained to accomplish a mission, and police are trained to accomplish another, and the two camps never talked to one another.

In general, I will agree with most of the other posters here: if you made it through USMC boot camp, you are proud and you are tough. That training will serve you throughout your life.

[Walter]

went through a police academy where there was stress but the stress was directed with a purpose in mind. Years later I visited the same police academy and noticed a lot of changes. It was more like a Marine Corps. Boot Camp, Recruits were knocking on the door and the D I within was saying, "I can't hear you." There was a lot of yelling and screaming around the academy without much thought to directed stress or training the men to think on their feet.

My first post to this thread was just a response to the criticism of Marine
Corps training. But after re-reading the entire thread, I'd like to add this.

Marine Corps recruits are being trained to eventually confront an enemy
and shoot him dead, face to face. That may be cold, but that is the
mission of a grunt Marine, and ALL Marines are "grunts" first, and anything
else, later. Even Marine pilots go through infantry training.

That said, I agree with you, Spade, that training police the way Marines
are trained is not my idea of correct. I have always been lead to believe
that the mission of the Police is "to protect and serve". If that is true,
they don't need to be trained like Marines, whose general mission is
usually to "break things and kill people".

"SWAT" teams are a perfect example of Police training gone wrong.:mad:

Walter

Semper Fi

[Jeff22]

I general I would disagree with Walter's comments that SWAT Teams somehow represent police training gone bad.

However, I don't live where you live, and I don't know how SWAT Teams where you live are selected, trained, or employed or what kind of operational history they have . . .

In regards to police training, I am a graduate of the Law Enforcement Specialist course at the USAF Security Police Academy, as well as the regular police academy in my state. I also taught firearms at the local regional police academy for 10 years.

I think organization and structure, having performance standards and holding people responsible for their performance is critical in training entry-level personnel in law enforcement. Inducing stress just for the sake of stress doesn't accomplish much in and of itself. Inducing stress in testing at the end of an Academy process can be beneficial in determining who can perform and who cannot, provided that the scenarios are properly designed and the evaluation properly conducted.

The function of military basic training is somewhat different than that of training police officers at the academy level. There are certain aspects that are very similar, but many that are significantly different.

[drewbuddy]

dude, spade. from one army guy to another. sit down and stfu. this topic should not even had been started. it's a flame fest waiting to boil over. my brother was a marine. i know what he went through, even after basic. hell, i know what i went through in my basic.

it's called conditioning. if they scream at you enough, at some point your going to learn to control your nerves and become calm in a high stress situation. and it must work, considering the marines are one hell of a force to be reckoned with.

around here, all the PD candidates are un-disciplined, unfit (athletically) morons. half of them don't know firearm safety from their left shoe. the other half have never even handled a firearm. a lot of them are quite, with no command presence around them. thier TI's yell at them, and abuse them to make them learn these things. can you honestly say that if someone spoke to you in a calm, clear manor and was completely polite about your training... that you would be able to order someone to the ground, make someone wet themselves while you are writing them a ticket? if they asked you to please try your hardest at running 3 miles every morning that you would be able to do it?

come on braugh. you said you went through basic... where? at relaxin jackson?

[Walter]

Jeff22 I general I would disagree with Walter's comments that SWAT Teams somehow represent police training gone bad.

Jeff22, with your background I'm not at all surprised you disagree with my
comments about SWAT teams. I bet 90% of this forum disagree with my
idea about that. But that doesn't change my opinion of SWAT teams.

SWAT teams, in my humble opinion, are nothing more than an "end-around"
the "Posse Comitatus Act" which forbids the U.S. military from being used as
law enforcement against civilians, in most cases. There are exceptions to
that law, of course, but not many. So again, in my opinion, the "powers-
that-be" created SWAT teams, civilian law-enforcement agents trained in
dynamic military operations, "assault" style. To be used against civilian
American citizens. And yes, police officers are technically "civilians",
I don't care what they believe their status is. If you aren't in the U.S.
Military, you ARE a civilian.

That's why I believe SWAT teams are not only wrong, but probably illegal.

I'm no "Cop Hater", I support law enforcement, for the most part. I just
don't believe in the assault-style tactics of the SWAT teams.

I know the attached pic isn't a SWAT team, but it represents the SWAT
mentality to me.

Walter

[Caeser23]

"The yelling and screaming was basically for shock value and to quickly establish command and control.

It also only lasted a few days.
After a few days the Drill Sgt's no longer yelled and screamed.
They were more like father figures.
The yelling and screaming and "in you face" stuff is really just a peformance for the first day or so for the newbies."

It weeded out a few people on the first few days, it's a deciding factor in who REALLY wants to be here. They still yelled and screamed just not like the first couple days or else I got used to it :confused: By the time my 6month O.S.U.T. was finished just under 50% had "washed out" plus a few that found loopholes, flat feet, other b.s. etc.

osut for you non army personnel and remfs, is one station unit training, you go straight from basic into job training, it's basically about 6 months of basic depending on your job but they only do it for infantry, artillery and tankers.

[Spade Cooley]

As a former policeman, I believe SWAT teams are necessary. When you take down a drug house that is known to contain weapons in the arms of known felons, how else could you do it? In hostage situations, this type of expert is needed. I've been at the scene of many a barricaded suspect and was happy when the SWAT team showed up and took over. The SWAT teams prevent a lot of death by their way of handling these situations even saving the lives of felons who are ready to shoot it out.

One point I was thinking about when I started this thread was how our troops in Iraq are now used as policemen on the streets. This puts them in a job they were not trained for. Like stated above, our military people were trained to fight and accomplish a mission, take the hiss so to speak. Now they are walking the streets as human targets for snipers, something only the Iraqi Police should be doing.

[drewbuddy]

so none of the MPs are trained as police officers? and correct me if i'm wrong, but the MPs are the ones running the training camps over there. I agree that the Iraqies need to get their democratic government together, and they are taking a tad to long to do it, but someone needs to be there to help them. you have to realize that democracy is a new concept to them. they've been a dictatorship for several decades. if we pull out now, it's going to be just like serbia. mass genocide and civil war. that's why we are there really, to prevent that from happening.

we're not just training thier police forces either, we're training thier military. but that's completely off topic from your OP. your OP was about police training being like military boot camp. which... it should be, as posted above.

[STLRN]

What training camps are you talking about? Most military training is being done by MiTTs (Military Transition Teams). The personnel from these teams are mostly combat arms officers and SNCOs with a few specialist (comm, motor-T and logistics). The police are being trained by the PiTTs (Police Transition Teams) they too are similarly structure as the MiTT. The PiTTs have IPLOs (International Police Liaison Officers), contractors who are normally retired police that advise the PiTTs and their Iraqi counterparts on police activity.


I heard some of the activated reservist who were LEO on the civilian life complaining that the IPLOs were mostly from small towns and the Southern US, vice "big city cops" and may not be qualified for the task at hand. I however was not in a place to validate this claim one or the other.

[chrisandclauida2]

The other day I saw films on Marine Corp. Boot Camp. There were DIs running around screaming constantly looking like a bunch of idiots. You could not even tell what the were yelling. in my opinion this type of supervision accomplishes nothing. You want leadership, obediace to orders, and a foot soldier who can think on his feet, not some scarred rabbit. I was in the Army and don't remember anything comming close to the scream fest I heard in the USMC. These guys didn't learn a thing from what I saw. I guess they were trying to turn them into warriors or killers but I couldn't tell it .


it is obvious you have no idea what your talking about. the techniques your saying are stupid are meant to instill attention to detain preforming under stress learning under stress identifying stress and avoiding it avoiding distraction etc etc etc

if you actually went thru recruit training you would see the transformation in the recruits and DI. they dont end up the best worriers in the world by worrying about feelings or uneducated opinions. they have been training recruits for a very long time. it must be working.

training a police officer and worrier are two vastly different things. they have some things in common but their core jobs are completely different and thus their training is different.

just make sure you go to the navy or air force if you ever join the service.



just kidding.

['75Scout]

I am currently beginning week 9 of a 32 week police academy. I have never been in the military. The 1st week of the academy there was alot of scream, alot of punishment, and alot of lessons learned. Usually screaming and physical punishment called "Memory Enhancers" go hand in hand. You may not understand the reasons for the punishment at the time, but after the dust has settled and the pain subsided the istructors tell you why we did what we did. Watching your brothers back is the lesson most often preached and rightly so.

Its funny how much I have changed in 8 weeks. I often think how long it would have taken me to learn some of the lessons if they staff was more lienient on use. I also find myself bonding with some of the guys in the academy much faster than I would otherwise. And during our "Memory Enhancer" routine you start to see how much agony someone you have only known for 8 weeks is willing to go through for your sake. We will gladly take on more of a burden to make sure our brother doesn't have to fall out of formation.

I don't know if this police academy equals the difficulty of Marine Boot Camp, but I've heard several cadets with prior military experience say its close. Though I have no right to say Semper Fi, I can tell all the Marines and members of all other branches of the armed forces that you will never know the gratitude I have for your service and that I think of the sacrificed made every day.

[Steve499]

I agree there are vast differences between the duties of a soldier and a policeman. I would imagine, though, that the stress induced upon a person whose duty requires them to take a step forward while knowing that could well be their last step in this life, is similar.

How do you suppose you get a person to willingly take that step? A sensible man just wouldn't do it, even if you could stand beside him and offer him more and more money to take it, yet we have daily examples of soldiers and policemen, all very sensible people, repeatedly taking that step

High stress training, in my experience from both army and police academy basic, tends to bond one to the group with ties closer than that of some family members. Those ties begin with only the training group but expand to include the entire outfit, whether civilian or military. You take the step I mentioned earlier, because you love your brother -in-arms and if you don't take it, he will have to.

I never served in combat with the military. I have though, as a civilian policeman, experienced the stress I mentioned above on numerous occasions, and the factor which was foremost in my mind at the time was how the guys would be disappointed in me if I wimped out. You people with military combat experience will be able to tell me if your motivations were similar or not.

Steve

[bentrod]

Spade,

I was in the Army also, but my first service was USMC than the Army, so I didn't attend Army Basic. In the Army I completed 5 jump schools, Ranger school and a bunch of other infantry type schools. Between the USMC and the USA, I completed a total of about 19 including advanced marksmanship and coaching. This was in the 50's and 60's to include Viet Nam as a Ranger in rifle platoon in the 173d Airborne Bde. I was also an instructor at the Army Ranger School as well as the 101st Airborne Div. Recondo School. And later, I went through a police academy. I was active in the martial arts until age 67, in fact I am starting back again. So from all of this I am able to say the basic training you received in the Army wasn't DIDDLY.


RANGERS LEAD THE WAY

[David Armstrong]

We could do a lot better in trainning both groups.
It seems that comment has gotten lost in all the GI Joe chest-thumping. He’s right. Now, I’m not a Marine, but I was a DI in the Army, and I’ve worked at the police academy, and assorted other spiffy things. The reason we are regularly changing and modifying training is to provide better training. We can do better. We do suggest changes to improve the training regime, witness the development of “the crucible” for example. And yes, we could do a lot better in training for both groups. But training costs time and money, so we do a balancing act that is a fight between "training better" and "costs more."

Regarding LE training, study after study has shown that military-style “boot camp” training is not the best way to produce good officers, and in fact it tends to create a number of problems for LE in the long run. Modern training focusing more on an academic model and adult learning techniques has been shown over and over to produce a much better LE officer. But it costs a lot more in time, money, adn other resources. The military model has one overwhelming advantage, it is much cheaper than the professional model, and that is why it is so popular in so many places.

[strong]

I saw a show where a Doctor was discussing the permanent damage to vocal chords for USMC DI's and how their voices change over time. Ultimately ending up always hoarse (sp?)

If it's bad enough they lose their voice for long periods of time the vocal chords begin to swell and bleed and the scar tissue creates irrepreable damage.

[MacGille]

Spade, As a former Police officer, I have no use for the military mindset that brought us SWAT teams. Police investigate, then make arrests. "No knock" entry is reminiscent of the Gestapo. My father fought against the Nazis and I fought against other totalitarian regimes. I don't like to see their tactics used in this "free" country.

If the job is too dangerous for you without violating the Constitution, then find other work. It takes bravery to restrain yourself in the face of lawbreakers and courage to do so even with the restrictions of the Constitution.

As far as Boot camp, Police academies should be teaching the law and proper enforcement techniques. Weapons training is incidental to Law Enforcement. Cops are not soldiers, and should not have a military mindset.

The Marines are a fine body of men who have defended this country from the beginning, and their training is tough. Because they have to be tough to accomplish their mission. Do you think that you can get a teenager to charge a machine gun position without discipline? Or keep himself conditioned and clean so that he is able to fulfill a mission? Marines are deservedly proud of their traditions because they are a magnificent fighting force. Sharp, honed, disciplined, trained and willing to go in harm's way for their country. I am not a Marine, but I wish I were. Army, Navy, Coast Guard , Police. By the time I had done all of that I was too old to be a Marine, but I respect them as the fine example of America they are.:)

Bentrod, Airborne, Rangers lead the way.( Recon,11th Airborne div.)

[njtrigger]

A soldier needs to be able to think clearly when he is mentally fatigued, physically fatigued, deprived of sleep and deprived of food/water. This is a common condition in any combat environment where sleep and food is a luxury.

A police officer will most likely never see the conditions that a solider sees on the battlefield. However, the officer's initial training is actually a part of the selection process. A military style training will quickly weed out those who are not qualified for the job.

If you were going to place a man in your community with a pistol, shotgun and arrest powers, wouldnt you want the man to have been thoroughly vetted through a military style training? That type of training will weed out anyone who is not psychologically fit or not disciplined enough for that type of work.

When I went through basic training in the Army, there were guys who seemed like nice intelligent guys when we all first got there. However, as time progressed, there were a few of these nice intelligent guys who were found not to be psychologically fit for the job. This type of stress training is essential to finding out who can walk the tight rope and who cant.

[obiwan1]

The closest portrayal I've seen of Parris Island was in the movie "Full Metal Jacket". It was very accurate. Back when I was an undergrad there (early 1969), we were told that there was a group of Army types and civilians trying to analyze how and why basic training at PISC was so effective. I don't know what they learned, however our DIs made sure to go through their raunchiest "routines" when we were near them. :D

[kgpcr]

To those who critisize the Marines way of training. Clearly you know not about what you speak. Marines have a proud history of taking on this countries toughtest battles and winning. Do they yell and scream. you bet they do. is it for a reason? you bet. When a Marine goes into combat he goes ready to take care of business. I would not trade my training in the Corps for anything. Like a General for the Chinese army said in Korea. I would rather take on a brigade of anything than take on a battalion of those god damn Marines. I would rather get in a gunfight with a Marine at my side than just about any cop you can show me. THey put you under extreme stress to teach you how to deal wth stress and they do it well. When i was in the gulf in 91 Marines were assigned with breaching the Saddam wall and taking Kuwait city. Most of that would be house to house fighting. Any idea as to why??. When Kafji fell and several Marines caught behind in teh city did they crawl in a hole and hide?? Hell no they called in arty on the Iraqi's and even though there were only a few of them they fought on and kicked ass. There was a reason they sent the Marines in to the islands in the Pacific in WWII. Yes training is tough and hard but thats why we are the proud and the few.
Semper Fi

[MacGille]

NJtrigger, no I don't want my fellow police officers to have a military mindset. They are police not military. They know the law and enforce the law, not combat. I don't like the emphasis on SWAT and "dynamic entry" . That's not what this country is about.

In the current emphasis on "terrorist war", we are losing sight of the most important thing we have to protect. I mean the Constitution of the United States. If we weaken that, we have lost the war on terrorism or any other war. The constitution is the only thing that makes this the greatest country in the world. Without it we could be France or Germany. Probably ok countries, but not the United States of America.

I was born a free man, and I will die the same way. I hope the rest of you feel the same.:)

[David Armstrong]

A military style training will quickly weed out those who are not qualified for the job.
I’m sorry, but that is simply not true. I’ve encountered more than one who got through the military style academy and wasn’t a good officer, and I’ve seen a few who washed out of a military style academy who have gone on to be good officers at agencies with academy model training.
If you were going to place a man in your community with a pistol, shotgun and arrest powers, wouldnt you want the man to have been thoroughly vetted through a military style training?
No. I would disagree with the idea that somehow they are thoroughly vetted because they went through the military style academy, or that they need such training to become vetted.
That type of training will weed out anyone who is not psychologically fit or not disciplined enough for that type of work.
Again, sorry, but that is simply not correct. In fact, there is a fairly good body of research indicating that the academy model training is better at producing the "good" officer than the military type academy.

[tepin]

Yelling is to intimidate and break auditory exclusion.

[JoeBlackSpade]

USMC training is designed to prepare young men for war.

Unless you are a Navy SEAL, slipping through the dark in a 4 man squad, war is a noisy, hostile, confusing arena. There are potentially dozens of automatic weapons firing at the same time, grenades going off, mortars rounds exploding.

If its in an urban environment, there are women screaming, and the wounded enemy is probably wailing in pain half a block away. Within your own squad/platoon/company, there are young men all around you, each one trying to stay alive. A few may have sustained injuries. A fractured femur will make many a man cry out.

Someone in the platoon is operating a radio, feeding information to HQ, and quite possibly asking for a close air strike. Squad leaders are listening to commands from the Platoon commander, and commanding their own men.

Marines are so good because they have honed the art of FIRE AND MANEUVER. A sniper stays put, rarely making egress, unless his position has been compromised. A combat infantry unit lays down massive amounts of lead AND moves in for the kill. There are flanking movements, bounding overwatch (where one man fires while the other one moves), blocking actions, escape from a kill zone, and establishing zones of fire. So here you have 20 to 50 men all shooting and being shot at, and doing it in an incredibly coordinated dance where every player knows his part. Do you think they can calmly whisper these commands to each other? A squad/ platoon action on a hostile enemy more closely resembles a football game, (where the man with the ball gets his brains blown out), rather than a chess match.

Intelligence never gives you a complete picture, and the enemy is trying to kill you just as hard as you are trying to kill him. Add to that the fact that you are fighting in HIS back yard. The enemy knows every rise in the road, every ditch and hiding hole. They are talking to each other on cell phones, and giving each other real time intelligence on what you and your men are doing. As a result, the battlefield is a fluid, dynamic and changing environment. Everyone is hyped on adrenaline.

Yelling in Boot Camp serves many purposes. Keep in mind that the drill instructors aren't the only ones doing the yelling. 18-year old kids that have been playing Nintendo all their lives are also required to yell (or SOUND OFF, as its called) in response to the drill instructors commands. Yelling is also done as the men sing cadence while they run. The process of shouting strengthens the vocal chords, expands the lungs, and initiates the young man into a new world, where he must make order out of chaos. The yelling and shouting that drill instructors do make the young man immune to distraction, and he is able to make sense of it in a short time.

[tiburondriver47]

very well said spade

[schwarz_06]

"The other day I saw films on Marine Corp. Boot Camp. There were DIs running around screaming constantly looking like a bunch of idiots. You could not even tell what the were yelling. in my opinion this type of supervision accomplishes nothing. You want leadership, obediace to orders, and a foot soldier who can think on his feet, not some scarred rabbit. I was in the Army and don't remember anything comming close to the scream fest I heard in the USMC. These guys didn't learn a thing from what I saw. I guess they were trying to turn them into warriors or killers but I couldn't tell it ."

Ok here is my take on your statement. And me being a current Marine I think I can consider myself well educated in this field. First you may not understand what that DI is saying. YOU dont have to. the recruit that he is training does. and believe me he understands. you may not see a purpose behind this stress training. but while that DI is screaming that recruit is also accomplishing several tasks. it could be anything from putting on his boots, to cleaning an M-16. Basic training is meant to create basically trained marines or cops from the academy. and as training goes on believe it or not the DIs start to relax and let recruits start to learn on their own. so yes boot camp turns civilians into basically trained almost battle ready marines. now me being and MP SRT Marksman ive learned all my knowledge for my job over many months of add on training that is in a completely different environment. and as far as the army goes. well i can tell you that the marjority of todays soldiers in the army are a bunch of lazy idiots with no discipline or sense of initiative. now mind you im not speaking of every soldier. and to add on to that. many of the civilian cops ive met are some window lickin idiots. like most of the things in life you need to experience it before you can consider yourself and expert in that subject. now i have attended several different training institutions from FLETC, SC Criminal justice academy, to Marine MP Basic. They all have their pros and cons. But where a new cop or marine learns the most is when he steps foot on the street or battlefield and gets experience.

[kgpcr]

None of the training in the Marines makes sense to an outsider. You have to have gone through it to understand it. When you are under fire and you have to get back to your side of the berm and no help is on the way and its dark and bullets are flying you can keep your wits about you. Your first instinct is to find cover and return fire but thats suicide as soon you will be surounded by alot of ****** of Iraqi's, you do what you know you need to do, you understand stress and keep doing your job. In 1991 that very thing happened to me and i am glad the training was what it was. The 4 of us made it back ok. I took one in the lower leg and never really knew it. I though i hit something while on the run. it went in the front of my leg and out the back and never hit bone. It felt like i hit the trailer hitch on my truck when i was walking past it. We kept fire discipline the whole way back. fire and move fire and move, no orders given you just do what you have been trained to do. the whole thing maybe lasted 15 minutes but it was a wild ride to say the least! are street cops idiots? is the army made up of idiots? No they arent but they are not Marines either.
Semper FI

[schwarz_06]

Well every one seems to have some great input and opinions. It seems like quite a hornet's nest has been stirred up. Everyone has put in many valid points. To all you folks who have served in other branches. I hope no one was offended, I have met many a great Soldier Sailor and Airman, but to all my old corps, salty marines, Semper FI.

[swman]

Two reasons for the way the USMC does book camps the way they do. One is to screen out those who aren't going to make the grade in a stressful environment. Two, to function smoothly and calmly when all hell breaks loose. If you can't handle the stress in training, you can't handle it in combat.

[Magdaddy]

You were ever at Camp Merrill ?

[workinwifdakids]

To add some depth to this thread: is it still true that the USMC is still the only service to begin basic training in the dark, in the middle of the night, to further disorient recruits? This, I believe, is a 'good thing.'

[ConcealCarryNY]

As far as I know they are still making them show up at zero dark thirty and scaring the poo out of them. It amazed me how quickly that very large dark green DI was able to convince me that the only thing that I wanted to do at 0130 in the morning was find yellow foot steps as fast as my "nasty recruit body" could.

--"Where do you put the bayonet?" (U.S. Marine hero Chesty Puller, upon seeing a flamethrower for the first time)
I about spit coke all over my keyboard on this one by the way.

[nutty ned]

OOHRA
Semper Fi

[bentrod]

If you are referring to one of the Ranger School out camps, they were not designated that why in the 60's. There was and still is a Camp Darby at Benning, and I see they named the Harmony Church area Camp Rogers, that is where I worked. We had two teams at Benning: the "City Team" the group at Harmony Church and the "Country Team" the guys at Camp Darby, but we all interchanged.

In the 60's there were 3 training areas, Ft. Benning, GA; Deloniga, GA, and Eagland Air Force Base, Field 9 in Florida. That is probably the Camp Merrell you are talking about. Field 9 is also where they trained the SF guys that made that raid into North Viet Nam to free the POW's at the Hanoi Hilton. Not long ago, I saw an interview on TV with some of the guys that made the raid, I went through Ranger School with one of them being interviewed: Sgt. Major Jakavinko.

The Rangers School cadre were designated 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ranger Companies for these 3 areas. I was in the 3rd Ranger Co. I think they moved one of the training areas to include desert training, maybe Ft. Hood, Tx.

A lot of things have changed in my old Army units, they reactivated the 173d Airborne Brigade in 2000, I was there to hand the colors over to the delegation from Italy, this took place at Ft Campbell, Ky. It wasn't too much longer the "Herd" made a combat jump into Iraq.

I should attend a Ranger reunion one of these years.

And I further contend: the Marine Corps has the only basic training, all the other services throw a picnic. That is until you go Airborne or get into some other elite unit.

Rangers Lead the Way.

[Walter]

Spade, As a former Police officer, I have no use for the military mindset that brought us SWAT teams. Police investigate, then make arrests. "No knock" entry is reminiscent of the Gestapo. My father fought against the Nazis and I fought against other totalitarian regimes. I don't like to see their tactics used in this "free" country.

If the job is too dangerous for you without violating the Constitution, then find other work. It takes bravery to restrain yourself in the face of lawbreakers and courage to do so even with the restrictions of the Constitution.

As far as Boot camp, Police academies should be teaching the law and proper enforcement techniques. Weapons training is incidental to Law Enforcement. Cops are not soldiers, and should not have a military mindset.

A-MEN, BROTHER!!! There it is, in a nutshell. The sooner the LE
community understands this, the better off we will all be.
Thank you, MacGille!

Semper Fi,
Walter

[kcole10]

Our marine basic boot camp is just the start of our training...it weeds out cops from marines...

semper fi

[kgpcr]

Its funny coming off the bus at o dark whatever. You could not run away if you wanted to. You would no clue as to what direction to run. all part of the training. My life changed in an instant. i thought those DI's were from another planet. One of the BIGEST honors in my life was when i got my Eagle Globe and Anchor and my DI called me a Marine and called me his brother. Unless you have been there you just cant know what that means.
Semper Fi

[ConcealCarryNY]

You could not run away if you wanted to

+1 I was 2nd battalion and it wasn't until the day I graduated and my parents drove me off base that I realized that the front gate was no more than 100 yards from our barracks. They know exactly what they are doing at all times.

[CGSteve8718]

And I further contend: the Marine Corps has the only basic training, all the other services throw a picnic. That is until you go Airborne or get into some other elite unit.

Without trying to make this comment seem like the usual service ******* match, the above statement, assuming bentrod hasn't been in the Marines is just the plain simple truth.

Boot camp stories are timeless, especially when it comes from Gunnys or MSgts. Mustang officers don't speak about OCS with the same reverance as they do about when they went through boot camp. It's probably a safe bet to say that all former Marines on this board still remember the names of their DIs, and they can tell you which one was the heavy hat, the knowledge one, or the drill one, and the senior usually plays "daddy".

All I can say is that whether active or reserve, mean green grunt or rear supply guy, served during peace or war, saw combat or not, 4 yrs or 20, all of those who have been on the yellow footprints have something special in common. Everyone who hasn't, and this includes Marine officers, just cannot ever understand.

Semper Fi

To everyone, thanks for serving.

[bentrod]

My first service was the Marines, I enlisted in the Army afterward. I did not go through Army basic, I went directly to jump school with the 82d at Ft. Bragg (the abn divisions had their own jump schools than) All services recognized Marine basic while the Marines would accept no other service's basic training. In fact while in Marine basic we had an Army, Korean war, combat vet go through with us. They smoked him like everyone else, maybe more, they called him "doggie" but when he graduated the DI's showed him a lot of respect.

I was able to observe the Army's basic, and I wasn't impressed. Army Jump school was more physical than Marine basic, but mentally easy for me, I thought the harassment funny, and the black hats smoked me hard, trying to make me quit because of my Marine tattoo.

Now Ranger School, that was something else, we started with 168 and graduated 38, many lost because of injuries. We had guys from the different branches of the service and a capt. from the Israeli Army in my class, the guys that were in the best shape when we started were from Marine Force Recon and the Israeli capt. , he was something else.

Marine basic prepared me well when I later enlisted in the Army. The Marines taught me to shoot well enough to make the 82d Airborne Div. rifle team. And later when in Korea with the 1st Cav., Div. I made Division Soldier of the Year.



"Rangers Lead the Way"

"Semper Fi"

and

"Airborne all the Way"