You come out of a WalMart and .........

[JAXX]

What do you do if you're packing in this case.

http://www.codyenterprise.com/articles/2007/07/12/news/news3.txt

Just happened Monday, about 30 miles from where I live. I don't think I would take any action other than call the police here unless my life or family's was in danger, how about you all?

[The Tourist]

"how about you all?"

This might sound odd, but I'm just careful when, where and how I shop. Now, that might not seem as odd as you might first think.

Look at the worst case you can think of for this debate. You get the jones for a big bottle of cheap rot-gut about zero-three-thirty in the morning. Slipping on only shower flip-flops, you stumble bleary-eyed into the nearest ghetto liquor store and dump a fistful of twenties onto the counter. My guess would be that your life could now be measured in seconds.

If you don't want to get hit by the train, then stay off the tracks.

Lots of stores in my area have security cams and bright lights in their parking lots. I patronize those stores.

I dress conservatively. I shop with a purpose. I know what I want, where it is and how much money I need to carry. I encourage my wife to shop with a friend. I make sure she has gas money, a charged cell phone and keys.

Predators look for the weak.

[eltorrente]

This might sound odd, but I'm just careful when, where and how I shop. Now, that might not seem as odd as you might first think.

Look at the worst case you can think of for this debate. You get the jones for a big bottle of cheap rot-gut about zero-three-thirty in the morning. Slipping on only shower flip-flops, you stumble bleary-eyed into the nearest ghetto liquor store and dump a fistful of twenties onto the counter. My guess would be that your life could now be measured in seconds.

If you don't want to get hit by the train, then stay off the tracks.

Lots of stores in my area have security cams and bright lights in their parking lots. I patronize those stores.

I dress conservatively. I shop with a purpose. I know what I want, where it is and how much money I need to carry. I encourage my wife to shop with a friend. I make sure she has gas money, a charged cell phone and keys.

Predators look for the weak.

This was Walmart in the middle of the afternoon. :D

If you avoid this type of "situation", then you must be feeling threatened all the time.

[JAXX]

This was Walmart in the middle of the afternoon.

If you avoid this type of "situation", then you must be feeling threatened all the time.

Man, I was kinda thinking the same thing here. What the hell was that post all about?:confused:

[chris in va]

Once over the initial shock, I probably would have found SOME sort of cover/concealment with gun drawn but not aimed yet. Doesn't sound like a SD situation on the shooter's part.

Otherwise be a good witness like he was.

[Fremmer]

Shop at Target instead. :D

[Tim Burke]

Turn around and go back into the Wal-Mart.

[drewbuddy]

defiantly don't shoot back. get to a safe vantage point and get a best description of the perp, to include a license plate number. shooting back could endanger even more lives than what are already threatened.

now if i was within ten feet of the guy that's a completely different story. draw down on the sob, order him to drop his weapon and then order him onto the ground until the proper authorities arrive. if he turns to fire, one carefully, non-lethal shot. that of course being in self defense.

or you could try the charging route if your not comfortable drawing down on him. tackle him. disarm and then detain.

[Dwight55]

+1 for going back into Wally World.

While you are in there, . . . might get a sympathy card and some flowers for the survivors of anyone foolish enough to try to take on an armed man by charging him barehanded, . . . disarming him and holding him for the authorities.

This guy has already demonstrated his willingness to shoot, . . . he has a weapon, . . . you are just another target.

The same goes for the mindset that is willing to put the whole neighborhood in jeapordy by firing a "non lethal" shot. The only way to do that, . . . is carry a "non lethal" gun, . . . you know, . . . shoots water or a flag that says bang.

Non lethal shots are for Gunsmoke, Wyatt Erp, the Lone Ranger and the Ponderosa. Real life guns are for shooting to stop, . . . and that usually means dead. If you are not willing to use it that way, . . . sell the gun and quit putting me and my life in jeapordy by your foolishness.

May God bless,
Dwight

[RocketFoot]

I've often thought about this scenario...especially while CC'ing. If me or my family were being directly threatened...no brainer, I would draw and fire if possible. If I were a distant witness, I'm am not sure I would intervene. I have heard tons of "hero" stories that backfired and make the good Samaritan the bad guy.

[Michael Anthony]

The article doesn't say who he was shooting at or if anyone got hurt. The slight bit of humor is between two of the witnesses they can give you a complete description of the car and hazard a guess at the caliber based on sound, but no one knows what the guy looked like.

Are shootings becoming more common or are we just hearing more about them due to media?

[edit: I just realized maybe I'm hearing more about them because I'm a newer firearms enthusiast]

[The Tourist]

"you must be feeling threatened all the time."

That's not exactly correct, but I do deliberately concentrate on being in 'condition yellow' more of the time recently.

Madison, Wisconsin has had a spurt in late night muggings and fights near our student bar area. Our hip-hop clubs have always had trouble. This is significant because we have always been a safe town. We prided ourselves on the situation where we could walk anywhere at just about any time of day.

However, it appears that when one area spikes in crime, all other areas seem to change as well.

As this is written, the authorities are investigating a CSI style murder and body dump. That's a long way from a happy hour shoving contest.

My own little nearby community had it's first murder in 17 years. 'Tagging' has increased with the emblems of Chicago gangs. My wife reports that there are more weapons seizures at our high school than ever before.

In short, the conditions that many of you have tolerated in larger urban areas are booming here in Madison within a very short time.

As for daylight hours in Wally World type stores, yes, we even now have a history of attacks and child snatches.

Clearly, I believe that if you hide in your home you are surrendering to that element. But this is not the happy-go-lucky suburban climate of "Leave It To Beaver" anymore. Many people still act like it is. It has been harder than hell to first get my wife to carry pepper-spray even after a rifle was found at her school. We're going to have to make some adjustments.

[PTR 91]

I think I would have just laughed it off. But if he ever came remotely close to pointing his gun in my direction I would blast him.

[Thunderhawk88]

Turn around, go back to the sporting goods area, and pick up some more ammo. :D
Taking cover would be the best action based on the info at hand. There just wasn't enough info to go be to decide if this guy was good guy/bad guy, victim or perp. Whatever you do, just make sure you and yours are safe first!

[littlmak]

My thoughts would have been, 1 try to be invisible. 2 use my cell phone camera / have walmart print them out on the spot and give them to leo's. No other action by me unless the shooter turned in our direction.

[Wildalaska]

I think I would have just laughed it off. But if he ever came remotely close to pointing his gun in my direction I would blast him.

wHAT IF HE WAS AN UNDECOVER OFFICER engaging a target, and then he turns in your direction to engage another target you cant see.

WildstopwiththemachosillinessAlaska

[Wildalaska]

2 use my cell phone camera / have walmart print them out on the spot and give them to leo's.

Id sell a copy to the media :)

WildmercenaryAlaska

[ZeSpectre]

Pull back, observe, report.

Keep others from exiting into the parking lot (if possible, some people are just too stupid to save).

[PTR 91]

Well I'm not going to stand there and get shot. Also if he's shooting then his cover is probably blown and he will identify himself. Who knows how one will react in this situation, I realy would find cover behind a car. Now back to the point if the guy is a bad guy and not a cop and he is pointing a gun at me the lead is going to fly.

[PJW001]

Clearly not enough info to make a call however based on the very basic info:
-1st get to cover
-2nd take down shooters and cars description & license plate
-cell phone photos would be helpful to LEO (& possibly profitable as mentioned above by WA:p)
-Call 911
-Would not follow shooters car or engage shooter in any way
Thats it, shooter has not fired in observers direction, heck they did not even know what the hell he was shooting at.

[gak1]

Drewbuddy-"draw down on the sob, order him to drop his weapon and then order him onto the ground until the proper authorities arrive. if he turns to fire, one carefully, non-lethal shot. that of course being in self defense. ...or you could try the charging route if your not comfortable drawing down on him. tackle him. disarm and then detain"

Wow, I wouldn't be able to pull that off and live to tell about it./Salute

[drewbuddy]

the part about drawing down, ordering him to disarm and lie face down in the dirt i could do. firing the non-lethal shot... probably not so much. i've been trained to shoot center of mass every time. that's where i would be aiming. being a hypothetical scenario, i gave a hypothetical answer.

anyone that has been properly trained on manning an armed check point, and dealing with inbound hostiles should be able to at least take charge of the situation. either lethally or non-lethally.

[mattro]

wow drewbuddy !!! :eek: :( :barf: :confused:

if he turns to fire, one carefully, non-lethal shot. that of course being in self defense.

or you could try the charging route if your not comfortable drawing down on him. tackle him. disarm and then detain.

I am not trying to slam you, but WOW you need to rethink self defense with a firearm. Get a good book, any book, and read it.

Start with Principles Of Personal Defense by Jeff Cooper, then some of Massad F. Ayoob books, and Ralph Mroz.

If you are truly convicted that you can shoot to wound and not lethaly, you are deadly mistaken. When you shoot, you shoot the biggest mass of flesh presented to you EVERYTIME, and repeatedly until it ceases to be a threat.

Don't take my word for it, take a class, read a book. That is a huge hurdle to get past in being prepared to protect yourself and others.

[mattro]

what would I have done??

I would have drawn and started quickly moving towards the shooter, while trying to maintain cover (cars). When within a tactical handgun range, I would yell at shooter to make sure he not a leo, once determined he is not a leo, and no innocent bystanders in my way (or behind him), and he does not immediately cease his threat toward me or others, I would empty my magazine into him. If he got away, I would do everything to follow him in my vehicle and use cell phone to lead police to him.

I know, here comes the John Wayne remarks...

I dont see it as ego, I see it as duty. I don't like it, and I hope I never have to answer that duty. But, I feel that being a MAN, and having a gun, and being well trained to use the gun; it is my duty to protect the lives of anyone from an evil person wanting to do them serious bodily harm or death.

Notice I said 'I feel'. I did not say other people are wrong if they feel otherwise.

I could not live with myself sitting back and being a good witness while someone's mother, daughter or son is being murdered, when I could have stopped it.

I would follow him, because he needs to be taken off the street.

[oldironman]

drewbuddy wasn't talking about himself you dummies. He thought he was in the forum where you review the latest Bruce Willis movie. Good review Drew :rolleyes:

[Xenia]

What do you do if you're packing in this case.

Honestly? I would take cover and call 911 on my cell.

Like the guy in the newspaper said, I would try to write down the license plate number.

I would not follow them around. I have enough trouble in my life, I don't like sending invitations out for more.

I might react differently if he was shooting at different people in the parking lot.

[drewbuddy]

so how many of you keyboard jockies have actually had to draw your side arm in self defense, or in the defense of others? :rolleyes: :eek:

[Wildalaska]

so how many of you keyboard jockies have actually had to draw your side arm in self defense, or in the defense of others?

Next you're going to tell us about your combat experience.

Wildyes?Alaska

[Manedwolf]

At least it wasn't a Target.

Then the news article would have been "Man seen shooting at target", and people would think it was a really, really slow news day.

[drewbuddy]

no. i won't bother. i have nothing to prove to you all. but i will say this, but won't go father into detail other than the following two statements:

i've been trained to defend myself and others, professionally, in a military environment.

i have had to draw my weapon three times in the past 10 years, in defense of my family.

to that, i know how it came out, what the circumstances were and what i could have done better, or not done. to facise (sp?) to say, been there done that.

[pogostick]

You know there have been shootings, at least one, at Target Stores... not busting on anybody for making jokes, just saying...

http://www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=3412781&nav=3w6oaWlH


Anyway, this guy had to be fairly far away from the shooting - something like 2 or 3 hundred feet - compared to my local Wal-Marts - I sure don't think I could even hit a man sized target at that distant with out a good bit of luck.

I'd probably be hauling tail right back inside the store - especially if with my son (if I had one). Once in call the professionals and hope the 'security' cameras get the plate.

[ZeSpectre]

so how many of you keyboard jockies have actually had to draw your side arm in self defense, or in the defense of others?

I think you'd be surprised at the count. Funny thing is that most who've "been there, done that" don't really tend to want to talk about it.

[Justme]

if the guy is a bad guy and not a cop

Right, because that is always instantly available knowledge.

My buddies dad was a NYC cop for something like 30 years and only ever used his gun twice. Twice in 30 years of putting himself in harm's way on purpose.

I worry that highly publicised events, like the ex-marine who stopped the robbery in the sandwich shop feed fantasies. Too many wanna be ninja's out there with very real ego problems finding the new CCW laws a quick fix to said ego problems.

Time will tell, but the CCW isn't going to feed the ego forever, then the ego will want more powerful weapons and eventually the ego won't be satisfied until those bigger badder weapons are used.

Young men with ego problems should join the military. Four years later they emerge as confident more mature citizens. Otherwise they annoint themselves as some sort of de-facto deputy or posse member and make life difficult for the rest of us.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I recommend going to the underwear section to see if there are any Superman or Wonder Woman underroos. If they have your size, pull them over your jeans and run out to join the fray. If they don't have your size, you can pull them over your head.

When did the military recommend nonlethal shots?

For me, it's back inside -because if you can see the gun, the gun can see you. The situation is too ill defined to join in.

[Wildalaska]

The situation is too ill defined to join in.

And with that, do I see discusssion as being properly closed ;)?

WildwilltheayeshaveitAlaska

[Manedwolf]

I worry that highly publicised events, like the ex-marine who stopped the robbery in the sandwich shop feed fantasies. Too many wanna be ninja's out there with very real ego problems finding the new CCW laws a quick fix to said ego problems.

Time will tell, but the CCW isn't going to feed the ego forever, then the ego will want more powerful weapons and eventually the ego won't be satisfied until those bigger badder weapons are used.

Sarah Brady, is that you? :barf:

[revjen45]

#1- Take cover til the shooting stops.
#2- Leave immediately.
#3- Stop at my favorite beer emporium on the way home and pick up a torpedo to savor while I contemplate the experience.

[ZeSpectre]

You left out... post on TFL so everyone can judge your choices :D

[eltorrente]

Heh, if some guy is opening up out in some parking lot, I'm gonna run to cover right away and get out of there. Maybe get behind a car or run back in the store- whatever is closer.

It's funny how people pretend they are SEAL team 5 and on a mission in enemy territory. People are gonna pull their gun and go "disarm" the shooter, or engage in a gun fight with him. :D Yeah, o.k., whatever. We all have fantasies and "plans" for different situations, but the fact is you better get to cover and call the cops and let the professionals deal with it. No good can come from putting yourself in harms way in a situation like this one.

Heck, like someone said earlier - what if the guy was an undercover cop or fbi? You have no idea what is going on. Anyway, if you pull your gun, how do you know the guy isn't some quick-draw, bullseye, from the hip, maniac that'll spin and drop you when you try your heroics? Maybe you shoot him, but he could shoot you, too.

[Thunderhawk88]

Too many wanna be ninja's out there with very real ego problems finding the new CCW laws a quick fix to said ego problems.


Bullseye Justme!

The situation is too ill defined to join in.

That says it all!

[CyberSEAL]

Too many unknowns to make a decision concerning what my actions would've been:

1. Can my family and I escape the situation safely.

2. Am I cornered by said gunman.

3. Do I feel that my life is in danger?

[mattro]

eltorrente: No good can come from putting yourself in harms way in a situation like this one.

I consider shooting the guy and stopping him from killing innocent people a likely, and 'good' outcome.

cyberseal: 3. Do I feel that my life is in danger?
someone's life is in danger...

eltorrente: It's funny how people pretend they are SEAL team 5 and on a mission in enemy territory. People are gonna pull their gun and go "disarm" the shooter, or engage in a gun fight with him. Yeah, o.k., whatever.
if you don't feel you can or will engage a threat, that is fine. I honestly do feel I can and will. I hope I never have to, but...

Also, I don't think it requires a seal team to handle most threats. Whether it be a young thief puke, or a drunk ****** off guy. I know I have had more training and have more confidence in my use of a weapon than most leo's.

[ZeSpectre]

Sure hope the guy you plan on plugging isn't the guy that just drove off a carjacker or whatever. I'd be a little messy for you.

Be SURE of a situation before you jump in. It's really easy to make things BAD and very difficult to make things better and you can't call bullets back.

[revjen45]

You left out... post on TFL so everyone can judge your choices

I said I wouldn't shoot anyone, would leave and not interfere with arriving authorities, have a brew in the comfort and privacy of my own home. No one injured by me, no extended dealings with the law as a witness, no DUI on the way home from a bar. What's the problem?

[ZeSpectre]

It's a JOKE. Possibly even IRONY. :rolleyes:

[CyberSEAL]

someone's life is in danger...

So? I'm not LEO and I'm not sticking around to play "hero" unless the threat is directly aimed at my family. If the situation presented itself in such a way that I could save someone else's live, I would, however my first (and the most appropriate) response is to remove myself and my family from the threat zone.

[mattro]

So? I'm not LEO and I'm not sticking around to play "hero" unless the threat is directly aimed at my family. If the situation presented itself in such a way that I could save someone else's live, I would, however my first (and the most appropriate) response is to remove myself and my family from the threat zone.

you're definetely safer that way...

[Doug.38PR]

Don't get involved unless you are sure of what is going on. Observe, then decide. If nothing else, you will observe things like Licence plate as the man in the article did, description of participants.

[CyberSEAL]

Yeh, I would definitely think so...

[cpaspr]

and question:

What do you do if you're packing in this case.

Be a good witness. Get back in the store where there is cover. Defend only if attacked or if I can see that the shooter is aiming at innocents.

Based on what the guy heard (shots) and saw (an older guy, aiming in a specific direction), I wouldn't do anything to engage with him. I don't know why he fired. I'm not even sure it was him doing the firing. He might have been shot at by the motorcyclist and drew his own gun but didn't have an opportunity to shoot before the biker left.

Coming upon a situation, or having our attention drawn to an already ongoing situation, leaves us woefully ignorant of very important details. He might be a cop, he might not. He might have been the one shooting, he might have been shot at. He might have been defending himself from a carjacker. Way too many unknowns to take any aggressive actions.

But for those advocating aggressively taking him out, you don't absolutely KNOW what you've walked into, so don't make it much, much worse.

I'll throw out just one possible situation: He just defended himself from an armed robber, his adrenaline is sky high. You come up behind him ordering him to drop the gun. He's got tunnel vision, his ears are ringing from several gun shots fired without hearing protection, and his focus is on the motorcycle. He vaguely hears your commands, and turns slightly toward you with a "huh?". The gun is still in his hand, but isn't necessarily pointing at you. But he may be thinking you're another armed thug. From his perspective, it's even probable. So if he does try to defend himself, legitimately, and you shoot him, who's the winner? You will have interjected yourself into a situation about which you did not have all the facts. Yes, legally, you may even be cleared of charges. But, and this is important, you should never have been in a position to have to face charges. Your ignorant (and by that I mean "not having ALL of the facts") charging into the situation would have left a good guy dead and you bankrupt from the civil suit sure to follow.

Always KNOW that you are absolutely right in pulling the trigger, and that the pulling of that trigger is the only option left.

[tepin]

call 911 and go get lunch. let the cops deal w/ it.

[Day Dreamer]

well, I wouldn't be in a wallmart in the first place, because the lure of cheap prices is insufficient cause for me to support one of the worst corporations on the planet, that spreads across the United States like a pestilence. We're currently fighting to keep that place out of our town.

But, the most logical thing would seem to be simply walking back into "wally world."

[Dannavy85]

Remove anyone near you from the threat, call 911, identify yourself to all and perform a barricade action by covering the enterance to prevent the armed gunman from gaining entry until police arrive.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would hide behind the green pepper display to watch someone try to command WalMart shoppers to listen to him about a shooting and perform a barricade action. What's dat anyway?

If you hit the ground, drew a gun and aimed at the doorway - the rest of the TFL commando squad will draw on you. Unless you are waving your CCW badge.

My nearest WalMart is a living example of our evolutionary tree - taking command of that situation if you weren't a police officer in uniform would be quiet an exercise.

[JAXX]

Glenn, that was one of the funniest posts I have ever read. I'm cracking up right now!

[JunyTuck]

Gotta love these " what would you do scenarios "!!!:barf::barf: They run the gambit from the macho commando to those that will flee at all costs. Personally, I would get the hell out of any situation that I don't understand or have not been specificaly trained for. If I or my family was in imminent danger then I would of course use my carry weapon. there's the old adage " Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way". Most of us would be best served doing the latter!!

[markj]

Here is how I would handle this. Run up to the shooter, tell him "you can do what you want to the girl, just leave me alone" then you will be safe to go home and make up ninja saves the world stories.

Why would anyone do anyting other than dial 911 and write down a descrption and plate?

[mattro]

markj,

What if at the VT shootings, there was someone within engagement distance that had a ccw and was trained to use it? What if they called 911, then jumped out a window and went home? After that, there were 20 more people executed. What if one of those was your mother, sister or daughter?

Would you tell that person "you did the right thing by calling 911 and running, thanks for not being a macho john wayne freak"?

[eltorrente]

What if at the VT shootings, there was someone within engagement distance that had a ccw and was trained to use it? What if they called 911, then jumped out a window and went home? After that, there were 20 more people executed. What if one of those was your mother, sister or daughter?

Would you tell that person "you did the right thing by calling 911 and running, thanks for not being a macho john wayne freak"?

The Walmart guy was in the parking lot shooting at the side of the building or something. The VT nut was walking into classrooms and shooting anything that moved.

The situation is just a little bit different. ;)

I think anyone would pull their gun and try and stop a mass murderer who was in the act of walking through a crowded area shooting everyone.

Heh, I'm not gonna risk my life trying to stop a guy from shooting the Walmart sign or whatever he was shooting.

I would watch with interest and amusement as a Rambo ccw holder decided to try and stop him though. That would be interesting to watch. The ccw guy FINALLY gets to use his gun and his fantasies come true - unless of course he gets killed. All to prevent the guy from shooting the Walmart sign. I'm sure your family would think you were a real hero for saving Walmart from property damage. :D

[JAXX]

The guy was shooting at another man who was on a motorcycle. He was shooting to kill, not shooting for the sign.

[eltorrente]

The guy was shooting at another man who was on a motorcycle. He was shooting to kill, not shooting for the sign.


Oh really?

He was shooting toward the far eastern (entrance), where I noticed a motorcycle leaving rather fast, but I'm not sure that's what he was shooting at,” Wise added.

Sounds like the motorcycle guy was scared and left the area like everyone else. If he actually WAS shooting at the guy, noone knew for sure, and regardless, the motorcycle guy was speeding away and obviously heading to safety, too.

[mattro]

Call me stupid or naive, but I don't see a big difference between this guy and the VT shootings. Whats different, the body count? This situation could have easily been 1 to 5 dead. So at what body count do you say, OK, that is enough, I should quit being a spectactor and do something.

markj's comment was "why would anyone do anything but call 911" If that is his comfort level, fine. My comfort level is to protect others, then myslef.

I have no fantasies of taking someone's life, I just think real men that are carrying and are trained, should intervene when someone is trying to hurt or kill an innocent person.

[eltorrente]

Call me stupid or naive, but I don't see a big difference between this guy and the VT shootings. Whats different, the body count? This situation could have easily been 1 to 5 dead. So at what body count do you say, OK, that is enough, I should quit being a spectactor and do something.

markj's comment was "why would anyone do anything but call 911" If that is his comfort level, fine. My comfort level is to protect others, then myslef.

I have no fantasies of taking someone's life, I just think real men that are carrying and are trained, should intervene when someone is trying to hurt or kill an innocent person.

Who or What was he shooting at? Was he a ccw holder that just got assaulted/robbed? Undercover/offduty cop?

You would draw your weapon and possibly shoot the guy without knowing what was going on, rather than call the police?

[mattro]

I would have to see him sending bullets into what I perceive as innocent people. I would definetely have to establish this is a bad guy shooting at innocent people.

[JAXX]

Quote:
The guy was shooting at another man who was on a motorcycle. He was shooting to kill, not shooting for the sign.


Oh really?


Yes really. I am the OP on this post, and this story has been in the paper numerous times since the incident. I only posted the original story because I really didn't see the need to post anymore. The basic rundown is that the shooter is a local guy from Cody who has had some problems with the guy that he was shooting at for quite a while. There has been bad blood between them for years. The cops were able to find the shooter from the license plate number given to them by several witnesses. The guy that he was shooting at was the man who left via motorcycle. This was a big deal because stuff like this does not happen up here too much at all. I believe that attempted murder charges have been filed against the shooter. So, the fact is he was shooting to kill, not for "target" practice.

[markj]

What if at the VT shootings, there was someone within engagement distance that had a ccw and was trained to use it?

No sense of humor mattro? That line was from an old george carlin bit.

First of all as a CCW you are to keep yer self out of harms way, not one ccw class will train you to go after anyone. You fall back to a place of safety and protect yourself and loved ones. Shoot only if you are directly threatened. As wild stated, how do you know who is shooting and at what? You have limited info here bub.

In the case of VT? If I was at the location I would have had no weapons as any legal ccw, catch 24 there, against the law to carry there. Cant say what I would have done, wasnt there. I have removed guns from guys a couple times and a few knives as a bouncer. Picked one guy up by his neck and shook him after he threatened me. One handed, he was around 150lbs. I am twice his size. I dont play hero man, I am not a mall ninja nor do I have lofty ideals on my actual limitations. Took bodyguard classes way back in the 70s, thought I wanted to protect folks for money, now that was a silly idea.

Stay alive, number one priority, not go after guy with a gun. That will get you killed real fast.

[mattro]

First of all as a CCW you are to keep yer self out of harms way,
I disagree. This isn't stated in laws, not stated in ccw or self defense classes, or in books by reputable writers. I am willing to put myself in harms way to protect myself and innocent others. It is your prerogative to only worry about yourself, I choose defend to innocent people.

not one ccw class will train you to go after anyone.
I disagree. If someone is unloading a gun into innocent people and I am in the area and can make the determination that this is a bad guy shooting innocent people, I will do something. A class or instructor that says otherwise will get neither my money or my time. I say there isn't a self defense instructor out there worth anything that would not agree with me on the obligation to get involved. If someone doesn't have the ability or the desire to get involved, that is another story. I have the ability and the desire to stop evil from hurting innocence.

You keep 'staying alive' as your number one priority, and I'll keep my priorities where my conscience will allow.

[JunyTuck]

I carry to protect myself, my family and my possessions. If you choose otherwise then your on your own. I have not been trained to intervene and where do you draw the line anyway? Sure, I would call 911, then get out of the way and let the police handle it.

[Magdaddy]

He probably bought something, got home and realized half the parts wre missing or the instructions to assemble came in Viet Namese.;) I think these big discount stores should have a training video for these situations, Maybe show a cashier running in a serpentine pattern through cookware or something. As for the hero following the guy, what a great memory that would have made for his son to see dad gunned down, or even worse dad getting his son gunned down. I think this future darwin award candidate should get a ticket for endangering a child.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You keep 'staying alive' as your number one priority, and I'll keep my priorities where my conscience will allow.

This pretty much sums up most of the intervention debates. However, it has all kinds of hidden processes that the blanket statement avoids.

Does your conscience care about whether you are going to disrupt your family's life for a stranger?

Do you think the 'innocents' are worthy of your help? Would you join the fight if an obvious gang member at WalMart opens up on a group of other gang members?

It isn't that simple as an internet posting.

[mattro]

Good wise sumation Glenn.

Does your conscience care about whether you are going to disrupt your family's life for a stranger?


I have thought alot of these situations. I honestly don't think I could live with myself if one or multiple innocent people die at the hand of an evil person and I turned an eye so I could stay safe instead of doing something about it. For me to coddle myself or my family while a mother and child are killed doesn't seem right. I don't think my wife, my God, or my conscience would approve.

I would hope a MAN would indanger himself to intervene if it were my daughter, wife or mother in peril. I think thats a man's job.

Obviously I would weigh the situation. I am not saying every situation is worth me putting my life on the line. Gang bangers fighting each other - their on their own.

I just can't stand how far to the 'not get involved' most people are on TFL.

A situation gets posted like - "A bg walks into a restaurant and pulls a gun and tells everyone to give him their wallets - what would you do?" Most replies on TFL quickly say:
** do nothing
** give bg your wallet
** crawl out the back door
** be a good witness to the crime and do nothing
** run and call 911
** do nothing unless the bg shoots someone

I'm not trying to be Rambo or Steven Segal, but I don't understand why men that are carrying a firearm that they are trained to use, have the first instinct to cower, run, flee and do nothing. It's maddening. Lable me John Wayne if you want, but at this stage in my life (38 with 5 kids), I am more inclined to quickly analyze the situation and get involved if needed. Not look for the quickest way to exit and stay safe when someone else's life might be in danger.

Most people on TFL label someone that is willing to endanger themselves to get involved a "John Wayne". Why not call someone who's first instinct is to crawl out a back door or run and call 911 a "coward"?

To each his own...

[markj]

I disagree. If someone is unloading a gun into innocent people and I am in the area and can make the determination that this is a bad guy shooting innocent people, I will do something.

Which CCw class taught you to intervene?

CCW was in a mall, guy was shooting up the place, CCW guy pulled and got close, he couldnt pull the trigger when it came time, he was shot up. Shooting a man isnt like standing at a range and throwing lead at a paper target. Some cant even pull on a deer, seen it happen many times in real life. Face to face, eye to eye, most will wet their pants and get shot when it comes time to look the BG in his face. You must be a big man to want to do this, or maybe crazy. You get shot once, may change yer mind.

I would hope a MAN would indanger himself to intervene if it were my daughter, wife or mother in peril.

I would hope some idiot with a gun would keep the hell out of it and not get my loved one killed by his insane actions. LEO are trained exrensivly, think you are up to that level? You may get yerself killed off fast.

[mattro]

That CCW guy in the mall probably ended up better than a shameful life of nightmares of people being executed while he cowered in a corner with a gun on his hip, calling 911...

You're right. I might wet my pants. I might chicken out when the true test comes. I hope that test never comes. If it does, I hope to be smart enough that my actions don't endanger anyone.

But, if the time came, I hope that I would try.

If a child was choking on a piece of candy, would you sit back and take notes, call 911 and wait for the ambulance? They are far better trained. There is risk that you might hurt the child with a heimlick, the child might die in your arms resulting in a law suit. Everything has risk.

[mattro]

markj: Which CCw class taught you to intervene?


I doubt if any professional instructor would, during a class, advocate intervening due to liability issues. Threre are too many variables for an instructor to cover when you should and should not intervene, plus he has no idea what your capabilities are.

I also doubt if any instructor worth anything would tell you to NOT intervene. Most books written by reputable writers advocate helping innocent people. Most instructors would tell you off the record to intervene to the best of your ability.

The Gunsite classes i attended would not advocate for or against intervening. They said that it depends on your confidence and your morals.

Can you imagine, while your giving your 'good witness' account after several people were murdered in cold blood, that you tell the officer and the surviving family that you watched the whole thing with a gun concealed on your hip and did nothing because you did not feel it was your place to intervene... Good luck with that.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How about the CCW guy who stopped a deranged spouse or husband (too lazy to search but its a well known story posted recently) from setting his woman on fire after stabbing her?

I supposed he was nuts. Also, can we have some data on how many CCW interventions led to an innocent being shot by the CCW person?

When, Markj, you say most will wet their pants - how do you know? From experience? :mad:

[markj]

If a child was choking on a piece of candy, would you sit back and take notes

That piece of candy wont arrest me or kill me, besides I am CPR and First Aid certed. Apples to oranges. Each situation is different, each response is different. Do as you will, just dont go shooting at people without making sure of who you are shooting at.

When, Markj, you say most will wet their pants - how do you know? From experience?

When I was shot outside of my Dads bar (bouncer) I didnt pee myself, no, I rolled under a truck and got away from him, I was unarmed as Nebr had no CCW and I was working at a bar. How about you? Manly man. I was also stuck in the backl of my neck with a knife, I took it and kept it. Why you should see some of the items I took away from manly men :) a sawed off 12 ga once, handed it over to the cops tho. How many have you disarmed so far?


A gun battle isnt a trip dowm fun lane, anyone that thinks it will be a walk in the park will find themselves dead real quick.

If I was in a school, I would be unarmed, if I was cornered, I would try to fight my way out, this is instinctual and this will kick in when you are confronted by this type of horror, unless you train and train hard. I have heard stories from my 2 cop cousins, I realize I am not a cop, nor a super hero. I am not out to fight crime or become a mall ninja. I can defend myself, but I dont go out looking for trouble.

kids should stay off mommies PC. Dont play with guns either, they are not toys.

[Capt Charlie]

Some of you folks are taking this way too personal. Suggest you count to ten in at least one language, lest a countdown of another sort commence ;).

[mattro]

If wanting to intervene (help someone) makes us a bunch of kids, then being a pacifist automatically means you are over 50? or over 65?

[zeroskillz]

If I was by myself, I'd run.
If I was with my family, I'd grab a kid, get the wife to do the same, and run.

My responsibility is to my family first, and that means not only protecting them if I'm able, but not getting dead as well.

'Course, if I walked out of Wallmart and heard gunshots, I'm sure my first reaction would be to look and stare while my brain tries to compute....
:o

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Perhaps I was overboard in responded to what I thought was ill founded inflammatory rhetoric by MarkJ.

My point is this:

Have we really seen a significant number of innocents shot by CCW permit holders in intervention incidents?

I say - we have not. We have had a few well publicized bad tactics from CCW types - Tyler and the mall - but one can find numerous successful interventions.

The argument against intervention usually has not be based on performance but on self-centered liability issues or fears that getting hurt will take you away from your family responsibilities.

Thus, in a less insulting manner, I still find Markj's statement without basis in fact.

[markj]

I still find Markj's statement without basis in fact.


May I ask which statement? I have made a couple here.

My take is this. Sometimes things are not as they appear, so be absolutly sure before firing any weapon. This is the simplified version.

I do not carry a gun these days, I do not fear anyone. I say this too, a smile at the corect time will do wonders.

Glen, I just re read this thread, I posted not one thing to you, yet you posted this:

When, Markj, you say most will wet their pants - how do you know? From experience?

Who is being inflamatory here bud? I have no time for playing wit hall you youngins, gotta get some work done and this is a dead end thread. No one was there, so how can anyone say how they would act or react? Get serious now and quit using yer emotions as a backdrop. I would hate to see or read about anyone getting shot up period.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

CCW was in a mall, guy was shooting up the place, CCW guy pulled and got close, he couldnt pull the trigger when it came time, he was shot up. Shooting a man isnt like standing at a range and throwing lead at a paper target. Some cant even pull on a deer, seen it happen many times in real life. Face to face, eye to eye, most will wet their pants and get shot when it comes time to look the BG in his face. You must be a big man to want to do this, or maybe crazy. You get shot once, may change yer mind.


I don't think the statement that most will wet their pants in this paragraph is supported by what we know of the history of CCW permit holders. The mall intervener is a vivid instance where he tried to help but failed to protect himself. The gentleman who stopped the woman burner was successful. The assistant principal who stopped the school shooter from escaping was successful.

I don't think we have a list of interventions where the CCW permit holder consistently has failed or endangered anyone.

While this list is full of bluster at times, I don't think the general impulse to save deserving innocents is an indication of madness.

It is the great conundrum of the CCW movement - be a sheepdog vs. run for your life and be a good witness.

No one says to be a fool vigilante over trivia. But faced with real horror, someone is not to be faulted for thinking of oneself and avoiding the fight, but they are not to be faulted for trying to help.

[markj]

I don't think the statement that most will wet their pants in this paragraph is supported by what we know of the history of CCW permit holders.

Some do know how to handle a weapon, most on internet forums tho I question their abilities. Dont know em, havent shot with them.

Years ago, 4 guys come into the bar with one gal, a mexican guy was passed out his head on a table, his gal was sitting there waiting for him to wake up keeping to herself. The guys were taunting her then one tried to take her out of the bar, I wasnt there yet, a few customers intervened, the guys went out and came back in with guns. A shootout occured, no CCW in Nebr but there was 6 or 7 different calibers from the slugs I dug out of the walls, over 40 rounds were fired. Citizens stood up, BGs got shot up. BArtender quit on the spot, I had to go in and close for her. I am not saying heroic deeds cannot be done, I question those that publically state "I would do such and such" etc. How do they know what they will do until it happens?

Kids on the internet. Some of these scenarios are laffable at the very least.

[Texpatriate]

..."what would you do?"

with my kid present (such as the witness's situation) I'd have run like hell with my kid in tow. I'm not going to interject myself into a potentially deadly situation with my 2 year old. Anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or full of it. If a criminal approaches ME or my family then that's a different story. Best policy would be to mind your own business and get the heck out of there when your kids are involved. Just my $.02.