Taught my son a lesson in awareness & safety yesterday

[threegun]

Took my 11 year old fishing yesterday. I went into downtown Tampa to find an area to fish on the Hillsborough River. After much looking I found a park with waterfront access and off we went. As we fished I began to notice that this particular area wasn't very "good". It looked beautiful in construction and maintenance however the people appeared poverty stricken. Lots of walkers & bike riders with grocery bags and sleeping material, clothes under the bridge (up where the bridge and ground meet and bums sleep). I told my son to keep an eye out for anyone that might be approaching us or looking at us. After about 30 minutes he says dad that guy is looking at us. It was a walker (crossing the low bridge). He was starring at us with a not so friendly look on his face. Soon another man walked by looking intensely at us then another followed by a bike rider again starring at us. None approached us but one guy stopped then proceeded. I began to worry remembering a time when I was younger. As I played basketball two teens, after starring, got up and left. Soon after 10 or more youths chased us away. I worried that the bike rider or walkers would get help to come rob us. After all my rods alone were worth 500 bucks (if they knew about them) then our necklaces were visible due to tank tops and worth 200 & 3000. I told my son to pack up and explained why. He said but daddy don't you have a gun. I said yes but I would rather leave than shoot someone. I added that I also had to worry about him so I had to be extra careful. We got back to the car loaded up and drove home. Around the corner was a housing projects or ghetto that wasn't visible from the parks entrance.

The moral of the story is beware the lone stranger that stares then disappears as he might be "getting help". I believe that if we hadn't left when we did trouble was coming. It would have been surprised to get such a deadly response but thats not what anyone wants.

[Tanzer]

Good job, Dad. You separated guns from "Macho tough guy" stuff. Good lesson for the kid.

[Dj Dust]

Great story chuck I was in that same situation with my dad about 20 years ago so I know just what you mean.

[olds442man]

Great Job! That is a lesson he will remember for a lifetime.

[eltorrente]

I think they were just walking by looking at the two fisherman. Maybe seeing if you caught any fish. I doubt they were running to get the gang. Sounds like you turned it into an exciting close-call for your kid, though.

[9mmHP]

I think he was right. ALWAYS trust your instincts of danger, they're usually accurate.

[cambeul41]

Maybe. But maybe not. Are you a betting man? I am not.

[Tanzer]

I think they were just walking by looking at the two fisherman. Maybe seeing if you caught any fish. I doubt they were running to get the gang. Sounds like you turned it into an exciting close-call for your kid, though.

Key words: Think, Maybe, Doubt.
A think, a maybe and a doubt would not be sufficient for me. I'd have left.

[eltorrente]

People look at me all the time, and I don't get scared and leave. :D

Just enjoy your day of fishing. Don't assume everyone that looks your way is a badguy.

OMG what if someone had walked down to you guys out of curiosity! Holy crap that would have been SCARY!!!!

[Tanzer]

eltorrente,
You ever been to Miami? Near a housing project?:confused:

[eltorrente]

eltorrente,
You ever been to Miami? Near a housing project?

Been to Miami, but didn't hang out at the housing projects. Been near plenty of them though in various big cities, and they aren't the kind of neighborhoods I'd take my kid to for a nice afternoon. :D Telling the kid to keep a lookout and warn if anyone is looking their way sounds pretty paranoid to start with, and apparantly the original poster felt unsafe to begin with in that area- and if he did then he shouldn't have been there in the first place. If you were having a day at the beach with your kid, would you tell him to keep a sharp look out for anyone that looks your way? Probably not - so obviously he knew they weren't in the best place to start with.

All that being said, you're still just fishing and enjoying the day, so keep on going. Just because people walk by and look at you is no reason to run for the hills and put motive behind everyone's eyes.

[dreamcastdre]

I'm paranoid by nature so I'm sure I'd have probably done the same thing. I think it was a good call on dad's part; better safe than sorry. I'd rather not take a chance getting my daughter caught up in a potentially bad situation if it can be avoided.

[Tanzer]

Been to Miami, but didn't hang out at the housing projects. Been near plenty of them though in various big cities, and they aren't the kind of neighborhoods I'd take my kid to for a nice afternoon. {omitted} ... apparantly the original poster felt unsafe to begin with in that area- and if he did then he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Credit where credit is due.... On this I definitely agree!

[eltorrente]

Credit where credit is due.... On this I definitely agree!

Yeah, I think that although I may disagree about the motives of the individuals, the fact is that if I didn't feel safe I would have left, also. However the main thing is that if I didn't feel safe in the first place, I wouldn't have stuck around to begin with.

Many times in my life I've walked down to talk to a fisherman and see what he's catching. Sometimes I've stood back from him and just watched to see what he's fishing with, if he caught anything, or whatever - just curious and it's something to look at in an otherwise boring afternoon. I never thought the guy would be scared of me, but I suppose some of them were and were really watching me with some nervousness as I approached.

[threegun]

As we fished I began to notice that this particular area wasn't very "good". It looked beautiful in construction and maintenance however the people appeared poverty stricken. Lots of walkers & bike riders with grocery bags and sleeping material, clothes under the bridge (up where the bridge and ground meet and bums sleep).

Eltorrente, I would never put my self let alone my child in harms way on purpose. As I said in my OP the park looked beautiful. I got a funny feeling that I can't explain why. I'm not overly paranoid and I do talk to folks. I guess you just had to be there to understand. I can tell you this when that guy stopped, looked around mostly at us, without saying catching anything, I pulled the pug on the trip.

The catch 22 is that had I stayed and been forced to draw or shoot you would be calling me rambo and stupid for not leaving after all the warnings. I guess I'd rather be paranoid.

I fear getting my child hurt. I fear not being able to maintain control of a situation. I'm not scared of people. I'm by no means a bad arse but I can dish out a whole lot of nasty if cornered........running is easier and safer.

[threegun]

My son now knows that running isn't being a coward. He now knows to use his surroundings to help make judgments. He now knows to observe how people look at him and how they act. Most important he now knows that having the ability to kill another human being doesn't give him the right to allow someone to force him to kill them.

BTW We caught a few fish also. Saltwater cats :barf: but one almost pulled the rod from my sons hands. Fun to fight for sure.

[Dave P]

I don't know if it is just Florida or not, but it seems that just about every public park area is to be avoided.

I live about 1 mile away from highway US 1, which seems to be the road of choice for all hobo's on the East Coast. Worthless bums are everywhere. :mad:

And if there is a public bathroom within the park there are bound to be plenty of men looking for a good time. :barf:

[crankshop1000]

Another moral of the story is that it's a shame you can't take your son fishing in a public area without fearing harm from the bums that seem to have taken over every public access area. You did good.We need to teach our kids the real facts of life.They won't learn it in school. Chuck.

[Hemicuda]

threegun... a 3000 dollar necklace? 500 dollar fishing rods?

I own somw wxpensive fishing gear... Orvis, Fenwick, and others...

I wear some expensive Indian silver jewelry... a couple high-dollar flight-chronographs etc...

I ALSO own somew Zebco equipment, and realize that the fish won't even notice my jewelry... SO...

I use the cheap equipment when it might be a theft attractant, and I do not wear expensive jewelry when FISHING...

What is the purpose of wearing 3000 dollar necklaces fishing?

[seeker_two]

Good call, threegun....

Takes a better man to walk away from a fight than to drag family into one...

[threegun]

Hemi, I just never take my chain off. Its 180 grams of 14kt. I hide it inside my shirt when forced to be in a risky area. As for the rods I messed up on the price. I had 2 G loomis GL3's (220 each) each with Shimano Stradic 2500 reels (120 each) thats 680.00 just for those two. I brought 4 rods but the other two were only about 250 bucks for both. What can I say I work at a pawnshop and get good deals. I also tournament bass fish. Good equipment makes a difference in guns and in fishing.

Dave, Hobo's or Bum's have never bothered me. You are right though it seems that predators and perverts hang around parks these days. This park was devoid of people. It was so isolated and quite that I felt very funny almost too quite. The bridge we chose just happened to be the main link between a store and the Ghetto.

[Dave P]

"What is the purpose of wearing 3000 dollar necklaces fishing?"


Hemi - shame on you. How do you feel when someone asks you: "whats the purpose of this big fancy dodge just sitting in your garage?"


Its not a "purpose" or a need, its a want.

[threegun]

I bought the chain in 2000 give or take when gold was at about 270 per oz. The chain cost me 1,400 back then. Now gold is around 660 per oz almost 2 1/2 times more money putting the chain at around 3,500.

I worked hard to get it and it is a part of me now. It represents my sweat. As Dave so eloquently put it I want to wear it. When I fish, shoot, eat, sleep, bathe, and yes even while doing IT LOL. It only comes off to clean.

"Why do you own that black rifle"? "Can't hunt with it"! "You ain't in the army"!

I own it just because LOL.

[JoeBlackSpade]

three gun, you did the right thing man.

Here's the rule about when to leave:

If you aren't FROM that neighborhood, and you feel uncomfortable, its time to make like a banana and split.

Eltorrente (possibly), and maybe a few other guys on here- myself included- we grew up in crap neighborhoods, and have a better street feel, than someone who grew up elsewhere. We know when its just a toothless crackhead that wants to see what you caught or babble on with you, and when its a scout- someone scoping you out as a potential target. If you can't tell the difference, err on the side of caution. The world is full of lakes and streams, and none of them are worth death or injury.

Not to pull the race card here, either, but if you are white in a black neighborhood, you are GONNA stand out, so you will get looks. And, if you are in a poor/ghetto neighborhood, its not even a "maybe". You can be 100% sure you will get mugged if you put yourself in that position. Poor neighborhoods are ridden with crime, simply because there's usually no education, no jobs, no money, and very little hope. In the neighborhood I grew up in, there were groups of guys constantly on the lookout for ANYONE casually passing through, even from another close-by neighborhood, just so they could "kike" them. In the rare case that they appeared to be from a "well-to-do" area, perhaps just lost tourists, then all the better! They were like a big fat juicy lamb in a den of wolves.

Growing up, I had to fight sometimes just to keep my NIKE sneakers on my feet. While in Junior High School, a white family moved to my area from South Africa- to escape the violence. Within one year, one of the boys- my age- was killed in a daylight shooting. Sad but true. He was a twin brother, and his sisters were twins too. In neighborhoods like this, it doesn't matter if you are black, white, or latino. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you LOOK like you have something of value, you WILL be scoped out. From there its just opportunity.

Go with your instinct and if you are going to make an error in judgement, err on the side of caution.

[9mmHP]

Why should anyone have to explain themselves as to why they own any legal item? The insinuation that he's in the wrong because he owns something valuable is outrageous.

[Hemicuda]

You assume that the Dodge (or Plymouth) is just sitting in my garage... you couldn't be more wrong...

I put over 20,000 miles on the Hemi'Cuda convertible (original, restored) last year...

I admit, the Cordoba and the others averaged less than 10k...

I get chastized REGULARLY for driving such a rare and expensive historic musclecar... I even fry the tires occasionally... and that REALLY gets some people going...

BUT, Ma MoPar built her to be DRIVEN...

to use your analogy, I do NOT take my high-dollar musclecar to the slums and leave it parked, where it would be a temptation...

I also do not advocate wearing $3000+ worth of gold, to go fishing... the fish don't care about "bling" and if the people with you do, then you AIN'T fishing... you are partying...

[LubeckTech]

Hi Threegun,

Sounds like this is a perfect time to talk to your son about why we DON'T want to use the guns we carry unless absolutely necessary which is a concept many adults just don't get. An 11 year old can handle it. Today's movies and poorly depict reality and as parents we must be aware of what is going on in the minds of our children. He needs to understand carring a gun is no substitute for avoiding trouble in the first place. I tend to be more careful about my actions while carrying than I would other wise. For instance if someone flips off my wife I would ignore it because I don't want to get into a fist fight and possibly lose control of my gun if things went really bad. In other words I'm probably a little less likley to get into a fight while armed. You need to discuss the many reasons why we don't want to use a gun unless there is no choice. Young people (older ones too) tend not to think about "what happens next" when a bullet leaves the barrell - things like collateral damage for one. In the movies the good guy shoots the bad guy who falls down dead after 1 round to the abdomen - we all know good guys never miss and the bad guys always miss. There are no "winners"in a gunfight only survivors - maybe. Real people miss and some innocent bystanders could be hurt - bad guys can and many times do shoot back with tragic restuls. Then there are the legal ramifications just because you were justified does not mean you won't land in jail. Everyone needs to consider that if you fatally shoot someone it is as likley as not the incident will end up costing you between $10,000 and $20,000 in legal fee either from prosecution or civil litigation and you won't get it back. Learning to think beyond the moment is a valuable lesson for everyone and 11 yrs is a great time to start!

[TheBluesMan]

Thanks for sharing the story, threegun. Good job on trusting your instincts and getting out of there. Your son learned a valuable lesson too.

Don't let Monday morning quarterbacks like eltorrente get you down. You were there, they weren't. You did right for yourself and your son.

-Dave

[Microgunner]

Threegun, I've seen that boy of yours shoot, both of them actually, and I don't think you had too much to worry about. Just toss him your backup, he'd have protected you. You're raising the next Jethro Dionisio. And that's the God's honest, lightning fast truth.

[vox rationis]

Thanks for sharing the story, threegun. Good job on trusting your instincts and getting out of there. Your son learned a valuable lesson too.

Don't let Monday morning quarterbacks like eltorrente get you down. You were there, they weren't. You did right for yourself and your son.

-Dave

Yes I totally agree. In situations like that you have to trust the dangerous signals that you are perceiving and act to avert a bad situation before it happens or to escape. And not to make more out of that situation than it was, but apropos dangerous situations: I will posit that our brains are pretty good at picking up a dangerous situation, it is just that we often suppress these messages or choose to ignore them. That is when we flirt with potential disaster. If you want to read about the neurophysiology and psychology of survival situations read the book "Deep Survival". In a nut shell most people can recognize danger signals, but what separates survivors vs the dead is the willingness to act decisively and promptly. The dead choose to ignore danger and often convince themselves that it is probably nothing, or decide that not acting is more socially decorous if you will (they don't want to cause a fuss). If you see danger signals better to act to investigate and/or remove yourself from the situation IMMEDIATELY than be sorry that you didn't do this later when it is too late. This is exactly what you did and I say it was a good call. When I was a teenager I was messing with my bike in a river bed, and after a ride-by by some hoodlum looking types I decided to stay put and continue messing with my bike instead of following my instinct and egress from the area. Well that ride by was recon, and they came back in a few minutes to jump me. They beat my a$$ good and took the bike. Lesson learned. Keep your radar on, recognize threats, and act appropriately..that's exactly what you did and good for you, and good lesson you taught your son, he's lucky to have a pops like you.

[threegun]

SoVT, Thanks for the kind words. My son also thinks he's lucky to have a dad like me. Only his reasoning is probably his Browning HP, Px4 Storm, and Bushmaster superlite LOL. I'm the best dad ever....every trip to the range or new gun.

In fact we are going to the range in a few hours. I gotta work (RO) and my boys are gonna shoot.


Micrgunner, Chuckie can't miss with the Browning HP. We ran reduced speed double taps Monday on two different targets and he was amazing. I have no doubt that he could protect mama and brother from goblins.

Hemicuda, I don't put the chain on to "fish". I never take it off. You are correct though I did/do feel that it attracts attention both good and bad. I would have left the fishing area with or without the chain however. Things smelled real bad and I'm not gonna chance it.

JoeBlackSpade, I am Hispanic and the neighborhood was black. I think I blend better than a white boy would. Having grow up on the out skirts of a ghetto I am familiar with bad people. Heck working at a pawnshop and dealing with poor people has taught me alot. I often sell guns to folks who have been assaulted or robbed. I always ask when, where, why, and how. Most people knew it was coming and simply had no way to stop it.

A general thanks to everyone who posted. I hope my experience helps others. I strongly feel that it will someday help my boy.

[9mmHP]

Remember, in situations where you're unexpectedly approached, always watch the hands no matter how broadly they're smiling at you.

[workinwifdakids]

What is the purpose of wearing 3000 dollar necklaces fishing?

Where I grew up, when I grew up, necklaces were absolutely a woman's jewelry item, with zero exceptions. Imagine my shock when I moved! It would be like an Amish man seeing a kilt on a man for the first time! I've never overcome it, much like many WWII-era men never overcame seeing men with long hair. I'm more libertarian, so I don't care how you dress or spend your money, but it sure is strange to hear!

Anyway, good job with your boy, and glad to hear you're safe.

[Don Gwinn]

It's almost impossible to convey in writing all the information you can get and process from the way someone looks at you. You should keep this in mind when you post such a story; some people are going to assume that they know a lot more about the situation than they do, because when you say someone was staring at you, they're going to picture someone looking at them.

If you were that worried, I doubt it was quite that simple.

[threegun]

Don, I have trouble explaining things already. You are dead on though it is tough to explain. I can tell you that when that one guy stopped looked around then looked back at us before continuing walking away that was it for me. It was the classic look around to see if anyone was coming type move.

Funny thing though. I explained to my dad what had happened. He said that I was FOS and paranoid. When I showed him in person how the guy did it he said oh crap.

You are correct that you had to be there.

[Tanzer]

Why should anyone have to explain themselves as to why they own any legal item? The insinuation that he's in the wrong because he owns something valuable is outrageous.

Agreed! I don't take off my Tissot Ballade (watch), my gold ship's wheel necklace or my 3 diamond wedding band, but then again you don't find me in such places if I can help it.

[threegun]

Tanzer, I forgot about my wedding band.....had it on to. Thats another grand.

[freeman]

own what you want (legally), fish what you want (legally), and be smart enough to keep you and your son safe (legally)....see a theme here?... Good Job, many tough guys would be in a jam today for not making such a wise decision. In addition, you helped teach your son some situational awareness, which may save his skin someday!!!

[threegun]

Thanks Freeman.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Threegun, I'm as street savvy as the next guy, but I'd take off my $6,000.00 Mr. T necklace if I was going to the ghetto. Of course, I don't HAVE a $6000 necklace, but if I did, I wouldn't walk out to Liberty City in a tank top. I'd end up like Rodney King.


There's a reason why there are 5-ton steel doors on the vault at the bank. If a thief/thug sees wealth or value, he gets this peculiar twinkle in his eyes, that means something bad's gonna happen.

Sounds to me like you handled yourself admirably. Your son won't forget that lesson.

Still, does that chain give you a neck-ache?

http://www.ritilan.com/archives/images/2005/03/08/mr-t-mom.png

[threegun]

Still, does that chain give you a neck-ache?


Nope. Don't even feel it.

I wouldn't go to liberty city either so no need to remove the chain LOL. Remember I didn't realize exactely were I was having come from Downtown. I would never have stopped had I known the housing projects were so close.

[David Armstrong]

Why should anyone have to explain themselves as to why they own any legal item? The insinuation that he's in the wrong because he owns something valuable is outrageous.
The question is not whether there is an issue about owning something, the issue is how that something is displayed/used and how that fits into one's overall lifestyle and security. Would you go to Nuevo Laredo and pull out a stack of $100 bills to buy a belt? Part of the "awareness" that is talked about so much is understanding what messages are being sent to the public and understanding the dangers. Like was mentioned above, taking an expensive sports car for a drive in the country is very different than leaving it parked overnight in the bad part of town.

[threegun]

Like was mentioned above, taking an expensive sports car for a drive in the country is very different than leaving it parked overnight in the bad part of town.

Stay out in the country then. If you find yourself in the city for whatever reason leave once you realize the mistake.

I realize that my chain, wedding band, heck even my children's chains are attractants for bad guys. Things as simple as your clothing are attractants for bad guys. You can either dress like a bum and wear no gold or you can remain vigilant and make good decisions. I choose to remain vigilant and stay on the better side of town.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Just busting your balls, threegun.

Sometimes you have a plan, and the unexpected happens.

In some cities (take Orlando, for example) you can be driving through a neighborhood with multi-million dollar homes, and then get on I-4, take the wrong exit, and within 2 miles, you can be driving through a trash neighborhood, faster than you can say "Oops, wrong turn". One minute you're looking at well trimmed shrubs, and parked Mercedes cars, the next minute you're being waved at by toothless hoochie mamas in bike-shorts and halter tops, and dodging Mr. baggy-pants-dreadlocks guy with a brown paper bag in his hand at 10:45 in the morning.

[threegun]

JoeBlack, I agree. In this case I knew the area in general was low income I just got turned around a bit. I thought I was a few miles from the real bad areas. I know Tampa pretty well and the areas to avoid. The rest is pretty much hit or miss with violence. I live in a pretty decent area of Tampa still less than 3 miles from my home a U.S. Marine veteran (fought in Afghanistan and Iraq & was going for his third tour) was robbed and killed......for of all things.......his chain:rolleyes:. A Chicago disciples gang member wanted his chain and the Marine resisted. The chain was not even taken. The bad guy told police why he did it in custody. So this side or that side of town doesn't mean safe and not safe it just reduces or increases the frequency of crime.

[threegun]

BTW, At todays gold prices Mr. T's sitting on a serious pile of dough. If all them chains are solid wow:eek:. I pity the fools neck LOL.

[David Armstrong]

Stay out in the country then. If you find yourself in the city for whatever reason leave once you realize the mistake.
I somehow fail to see how that relates to anything that was said.
I realize that my chain, wedding band, heck even my children's chains are attractants for bad guys.
So the question becomes why attract bad guys if you don’t really need to?:confused:
You can either dress like a bum and wear no gold or you can remain vigilant and make good decisions.
I find it strange that you would think those concepts are all mutually exclusive. One can dress quite nicely without looking like a bum. Similarly, one can dress like a bum and still wear a lot of gold. One can make good decisions no matter how they dress or what kind of bling they sport. And remaining vigilant is not a factor of how you dress.

[Hemicuda]

So, why DON'T you take off the necklace and the Rolex when going fishing? is there a REASON for not taking it off? (or for putting it on in the AM, in the FIRST place, when going fishing?)

Or do you wear them to bed too? (I bet your wife LOVES having to shave her head so you don't pull her hair out with all that nice flex-weave metal...)

there is a time and place for everything, and fishing and bling really AREN'T related...

[Ed Lawrence]

If you really wanted to teach your son a lesson in awareness and safety, you would have left as soon as you realized that you were not in the safeset location.

You would also teach him that it is not wise to go into questionable areas wearing thousands of dollars worht of jewlery.

Like David said in his example about being seen in questionable areas with a huge wad of bills.

[threegun]

Like David said in his example about being seen in questionable areas with a huge wad of bills.

Like I said stay out of questionable areas. If you find yourself in a questionable area leave ASAP bills or no bills. Many things are attractants for the criminal including your attire. Dress in a business suit and you will attract a bad guy before that old tank top w/ dungarees.

If you really wanted to teach your son a lesson in awareness and safety, you would have left as soon as you realized that you were not in the safeset location.


Ain't perfect. Try like heck to be safe but ain't perfect.

You would also teach him that it is not wise to go into questionable areas wearing thousands of dollars worht of jewlery.

Done. Taught (both boys) that people will rob you for a pair of expensive sneakers much less a pocket full of cash. Since I don't remove the chain or wedding band my approach is to stay out of the hood. I made a mistake and corrected it when it dawned on me.

BTW, Please send me a list of appropriate locations and times to wear my chain and wedding band:D.

[threegun]

Hemicuda, Don't own a Rolex......yet. I don't like to wear watches. Rolex's are big and heavy. I have pondered the thought of getting one but Gold is too high right now. I'll wait until that presidential comes in for 6 thousand or so. I need to wear a watch just annoys the heck out of my wrist.

Or do you wear them to bed too?

Never take it off. Its a big cuban link chain so it doesn't catch hair.

there is a time and place for everything, and fishing and bling really AREN'T related...

I know I know.........I'm still waiting for you guys to give me a certified list of appropriate times and locations to wear my "bling" LOL. Really though I don't even think about the chain since it stays on all the time. Sometimes I will put it inside my shirt as I would have done in this instance if not for my tank top.

[threegun]

David,

So the question becomes why attract bad guys if you don’t really need to?

Don't know? In your life pick something you do that attracts bad guys or increases your danger level unnecessarily and ask yourself the same question. I do understand your point though. I believe that I posted I would have hidden my chain in my shirt if not for the tank I was wearing.

I just prefer to stay in good areas to begin with. Thinking that you are safe by leaving your gold at home is not smart. I don't know Nuevo Lurado but if is a bad area I'll just stay out in the first place.

People like to criticize yet they are the first one walking out of a bar at 1am. Everybody does something that may increase their odds of being targeted. My chink is the chain whats yours?

[David Armstrong]

In your life pick something you do that attracts bad guys or increases your danger level unnecessarily and ask yourself the same question.
The key is “unnecessarily.” To the best of my knowledge I do not do anything to unnecessarily increase my danger level or attract bad guys. Sometimes it is necessary to do that, but I make an effort to reduce the chances. To me, that is the point of this discussion. I’ve got the nice gold neck chain (Russian gold, BTW) and matching bracelet. I’ve got the Rolex watch. I’ve got the real $5 gold eagle cufflinks. But they usually sit in the safe instead of being worn every day. I don’t feel the need to impress anybody in my usual daily activities and dress, and thus I reduce my attractiveness as a target for hostile activities.
People like to criticize yet they are the first one walking out of a bar at 1am. Everybody does something that may increase their odds of being targeted. My chink is the chain whats yours?
Well, if I go to the bar (rarely) I tend to leave early and I have a 2-drink limit. And if I do anything that unnecessarily increases my odds of being targeted I’m not aware of it. If I were aware of it I would change it.

[threegun]

David, Believe it or not we agree. I assume the added risk. I try to hide it on those very rare occassions that I am in a bad area.

Let me ask though do you wear a wedding ring? What kind of car do you drive? How do you dress? Do you stay out into the wee hours of the night for fun?

BTW, Going to the bar increases your odds all by itself.

I tournament bass fish and find myself up and out of the house many times at 3am. That increases my chances. The chain increases my chances. Aside that I am a family man, no bars or partying of any kind. I promise that my trips into the hood with or without my chain are very rare the last being accidental.

When do you wear your Rolex and other jewelry? Why have it and not use it?

[David Armstrong]

David, Believe it or not we agree. I assume the added risk.
I'm not sure we do. I would not add the risk unless necessary. There is absolutely no gain, and lots of potential cost.
Let me ask though do you wear a wedding ring? What kind of car do you drive? How do you dress? Do you stay out into the wee hours of the night for fun?
In order: Not ordinarily. /Depends on what is going on, but usually it is an older Ford ranger pickup; Long trips or more formal events usually get the new Crown Victoria; Fun and game weekend runs through the countryside belong to the Jag convertible. /I dress conservatively, usually chinos or jeans and a polo shirt. /No, I stay out when necessary, but not for fun. BTW, Going to the bar increases your odds all by itself.
True, but it can increase them minimally when done correctly. Good part of town, better class bar and patrons, etc.
I tournament bass fish and find myself up and out of the house many times at 3am. That increases my chances. The chain increases my chances.
OK, tournament fishing REQUIRES the early up and at them process. It is necessary. The chain is not necessary. In fact, it could be argued that the chain increases your chances of not being able to fish. That is my position. I'm not saying never do anything, never enjoy things. I'm suggesting, as are all these other folks, that attracting bad guys when you don't need to is not a good policy.
When do you wear your Rolex and other jewelry? Why have it and not use it?
I wear it when appropriate and reasonable safe to do so. It is no different than having money in the bank. I take some out when I need it. I don't take it all out and then walk around with it all the time.

[threegun]

David, We agree in that Jewelry in general attracts the bad guy.

If you go back and read my posts I rarely go into bad areas. When I do find myself in this situation I leave asap. So my chain is worn in safe areas almost exclusively and hidden on most of those rare occassions that put me in a bad area.

I wear it when appropriate and reasonable safe to do so. It is no different than having money in the bank. I take some out when I need it. I don't take it all out and then walk around with it all the time.

Appropriate by your standards may be different than mine or others. Reasonably safe to me means the good side of town. What does it mean to you?

You guys get stuck on the idea of wearing an expensive piece of jewelry fishing as not being appropriate. Says who the "when to wear jewelry" police? How is what I do any different than when you decide to wear yours. We both wear our gold in reasonably safe environments. I just stay in reasonably safe areas. The fishing trip with my son was a mistake which I corrected pretty quickly.

[David Armstrong]

So my chain is worn in safe areas almost exclusively and hidden on most of those rare occassions that put me in a bad area.
You seem to be missing the point that I and others are trying to make. By your own admission you realize the chain attracts bad guys. Therefore why wear it around bad guys, period? That is the point---it is not particularly smart to do things that you know will make your life more dangerous without any reason. By your own admission this place was so bad you put your son on lookout detail to watch for bad guys, but then you hung around for another 30 minutes. You left expensive chains visible on both you and your son instead of putting them out of sight. This does not strike me as a particularly good response. If you think hanging around in an area that you have identified as problematic, wearing bad guy attractant, with an 11 year old child in tow is a good thing, go for it, but I'm going to call it as not such a good idea.
Appropriate by your standards may be different than mine or others.
But "appropriate and reasonably safe" which was the whole concept, not just a piece of it, should not differ that much from person to person.
You guys get stuck on the idea of wearing an expensive piece of jewelry fishing as not being appropriate.
I can't speak for everyone, but I think what us guys are stuck on is the idea that you would do something to attract the bad guys when it is not necessary. Personally I don't find a $3000 piece of jewelry to be all that expensive, but I still fail to see how wearing it fishing does anything other than give an additional thing to worry about.
Says who the "when to wear jewelry" police?
I'm not aware of any such police, and even if so nobody is saying when and when not to wear jewelry. We are pointing out that doing stupid things increases the likelihood of a bad result, whether it be wearing jewelry, parking cars, flashing money, or anything else.
How is what I do any different than when you decide to wear yours.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that I actually decide when to do it, while you say you do it all the time no matter what. You might want to read up on a little thing called "the stealth existence" by noted instructor John Farnam.

[Fremmer]

You did fine, Three. You and your son are safe. Thanks for sharing the story with us. If you like your chain, fine with me; keep wearing it. Keep going fishing. Everything turned out fine.

[gtomax]

threegun, great work.

P.S. reply to this thread on a different matter here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257301

Didn't want to hijack :)

[threegun]

David,
By your own admission you realize the chain attracts bad guys. Therefore why wear it around bad guys, period?

By your own admission you own and occassionally wear expensive jewelry, watch, etc. You also understand that it attracts bad guys so why even own it? When you wear it bad guys will be attracted to you right?

To answer your question again I don't go to areas that hold high concentrations of bad guys. The fishing trip was a fluke.

By your own admission this place was so bad you put your son on lookout detail to watch for bad guys, but then you hung around for another 30 minutes.

You are right I should have left sooner. I have told my son on many occasions to tell me if anyone was approaching us (even nice areas)as I try to stay in condition yellow. With the responsibility of watching rods and baiting hooks I need the help. I hung around because folks were minding their business and paying us no mind until that first guy. My son was having fun fishing. I allowed it to over ride my better judgement for awhile.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think what us guys are stuck on is the idea that you would do something to attract the bad guys when it is not necessary.

When is wearing jewelry and Rolex watches necessary David? The fact is it isn't ever necessary yet on occasion even you do it.....why? Why would you do something to attract bad guys? Then why would you scold another when you yourself occassionally attract bad guys with jewelry?

Perhaps the biggest difference is that I actually decide when to do it,

You decide when to wear the Rolex and I simply make it a point not to go into the ghetto. Lets not forget that if I notice unsavory people even in the good side of town I put the chain in my shirt (if it is out). Deciding when to wear your Rolex doesn't make it invisible to the bad guy.....(no stealth rolex's yet). When you do decide to wear it just remember that you think it is stupid to do so.

BTW I do appreciate you looking out for my / our well being. Thanks.

[threegun]

Fremmer and GTOmax, Thanks.

GTO I did post on the link thanks.

[reltor]

Solves a lot of gawking problems

[David Armstrong]

By your own admission you own and occassionally wear expensive jewelry, watch, etc. You also understand that it attracts bad guys so why even own it? When you wear it bad guys will be attracted to you right?
You keep missing the point. It has nothing to do with attracting the bad guys, the whole point of my discussion has been not attracting bad guys unnecessarily, without some reason. That means looking at your situation and doing things the smart way. Going out in public attracts the bad guys. Having a house attracts the bad guys. Driving through town attracts the bad guys. My point (and that of others) is that one should not do things to increase the attention of the BG without some reason. Again, you don’t walk around with all of your money held in your hand all the time, do you?
To answer your question again I don't go to areas that hold high concentrations of bad guys. The fishing trip was a fluke.
That seems to disagree with previous posts from you, but that may be an incorrect perception on my part.
I have told my son on many occasions to tell me if anyone was approaching us (even nice areas)as I try to stay in condition yellow. With the responsibility of watching rods and baiting hooks I need the help.
I’m sorry, but this just furthers my point. If I regularly went places that I had to put my son on watch detail, I’d question the wisdom of going there. And if I couldn’t watch my rods and bait my hooks without needing help watching for BGs I think I’d find someplace else to go fishing.
When is wearing jewelry and Rolex watches necessary David?
Again you persist in misunderstanding. Nobody has said a thing about it being necessary to ever wear jewelry, watches, drive fancy cars, carry lots of money, and so on. The point is not to do so in a way, place, or time that attract the bad guys. That is the difference, and until you understand that difference I’m afraid we will continue talking past each other. There is nothing wrong with an attractive lady wearing a skimpy bikini. But wearing it while jogging alone in a bad part of town at 3:00 in the morning is probably not the best thing time or place to do it.
The fact is it isn't ever necessary yet on occasion even you do it.....why? Why would you do something to attract bad guys?
See above. I don’t wear the stuff when it would attract the bad guys. That is part of cost/benefit and risk analysis.
Lets not forget that if I notice unsavory people even in the good side of town I put the chain in my shirt (if it is out).
Let’s not forget that part of this conversation started because you could not put the chain in your shirt when it was out.
Deciding when to wear your Rolex doesn't make it invisible to the bad guy.....(no stealth rolex's yet). When you do decide to wear it just remember that you think it is stupid to do so.
On the contrary. If I wore a Rolex fishing in the bad part of town, that would be stupid. I don’t think wearing nice jewelry or watches or driving nice cars when appropriate is stupid. The Rolex might be appropriate in a business setting, for example.
BTW I do appreciate you looking out for my / our well being. Thanks.
Welcome, and it isn’t just your well-being, it is something everyone needs to think about. You might note that my first post here was not in response to anything you said, it was in response to another poster’s comments. Way too many times people do things without realizing the potential for problems that are created. There is a large amount of crime and other social ills that could be reduced if we would all focus on that. Frequently we don’t because it is uncomfortable or “by God, it is my right!” or some such.

[Fremmer]

For goodness sake. You guys are still arguing about chains and watches. Bad people do bad things to those with and without chains and watches. You can't always be in condition yellow, or red, or whatever. I suppose that if you and your family constantly stay inside your house (in condition red, naturally :rolleyes), you'll be tactically prepared all the time.

He went fishing with his kid. They almost ran into trouble, but things turned out OK. He learned from the experience. Nobody really cares about chains and watches. If you want to wear a chain or a watch, do it. If you don't want to wear them, then don't. In fact, if you don't wear any clothing or accessories, fine by me. Although if I wore nothing, the bad guys and the good guys would flee in disgust. :D

[threegun]

The point is not to do so in a way, place, or time that attract the bad guys.See above. I don’t wear the stuff when it would attract the bad guys. That is part of cost/benefit and risk analysis.
The Rolex might be appropriate in a business setting, for example.


My point is that these items, your rolex or my chain, attract bad guys. You can't say that you wear yours when it won't attract bad guys because you never know who the bad guy is. What you can do is wear it when you don't expect bad guys to be around you. I just try to always stay in areas that are reasonably safe.

That seems to disagree with previous posts from you, but that may be an incorrect perception on my part.


You are thinking of my job.....pawnshop manager in a not so nice section of town. That alone makes me a bigger target coming to and from work. I don't hang around these parts before or after work though. I stay on high alert well until I'm in better surroundings and always look for tails (just a habit now). A friend put into my head that someone was going to follow me home and get me while off guard to force me to open the safes here at work. Made me take more precautions.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think what us guys are stuck on is the idea that you would do something to attract the bad guys when it is not necessary.

My point was that wearing jewelry attracts bad guys and is never necessary. You can't guarentee that your Rolex won't attract a bad guy simply by wearing it to a business luncheon. Probably won't be as attractive as wearing it the hood but still attractive to bad guys and not necessary.

Nobody has said a thing about it being necessary to ever wear jewelry, watches, drive fancy cars, carry lots of money, and so on. The point is not to do so in a way, place, or time that attract the bad guys.

Again there are safer places to wear them but no place is completely bad guy free and they never stop attracting.

Let’s not forget that part of this conversation started because you could not put the chain in your shirt when it was out.


Yep. The old tank top got me. I could have put the chain in my fanny pack. Leaving was better. Like I said finding myself in a bad area was rare and in this case a fluke. No doubt though that the chain increased my danger level that day. On average though I don't feel it adds much risk given the areas I frequent. I haven't had an issue for many years while wearing it.

If I regularly went places that I had to put my son on watch detail, I’d question the wisdom of going there. And if I couldn’t watch my rods and bait my hooks without needing help watching for BGs I think I’d find someplace else to go fishing.


I am terrible at explaining thing so bear with me. I don't care if I'm in the "safest part of town" fishing a church pond with Gods angels guarding us LOL. If I'm not able to adequately maintain at least condition light yellow I will ask my son or perhaps my wife to be more aware of our surroundings. I might say boy don't let anybody sneak up on us okay. Not that the area is bad David but you just never know when trouble is coming. As stated before I try my darndest to avoid bad areas.

I very much understand what you are saying. I agree and assume a greater risk by wearing my chain. I try to mitigate that increased risk by environment and awareness. I believe that the it forces me to be more aware of my surroundings at all times. To me given this fact alone I feel less a target. You might feel different.

[threegun]

Fremmer, David and the others are just looking out. They are right in that I am increasing my odds of becomming a target. I just wanted to point out that expensive jewelry draws attention both good and bad no matter when or where you wear it. Owning and occasionally wearing expensive jewelry while understanding its attraction to bad guys then scolding others for doing the same is the reason for my arguement.

I believe that had I stayed fishing that day, even without the chain, trouble was coming. Although the chain could only hurt the situation.

[Ed Lawrence]

Threegun wrote: I am terrible at explaining thing so bear with me. I don't care if I'm in the "safest part of town" fishing a church pond with Gods angels guarding us LOL. If I'm not able to adequately maintain at least condition light yellow I will ask my son or perhaps my wife to be more aware of our surroundings. I might say boy don't let anybody sneak up on us okay. Not that the area is bad David but you just never know when trouble is coming. As stated before I try my darndest to avoid bad areas.

This is different from what you wrote in your first post:

As we fished I began to notice that this particular area wasn't very "good". It looked beautiful in construction and maintenance however the people appeared poverty stricken. Lots of walkers & bike riders with grocery bags and sleeping material, clothes under the bridge (up where the bridge and ground meet and bums sleep). I told my son to keep an eye out for anyone that might be approaching us or looking at us. After about 30 minutes he says dad that guy is looking at us.

Originally you put your son on watch after you recognized that this wasn't the best area and stayed there at least 30 minutes longer. That hardly constitutes "trying your darndest to avoid bad areas."

People are questioning the judgement you displayed by hanging around fishing in an area that you recognized was questionable, while you and your son wore gold chains, making yourselves look like bait.

[threegun]

Ed, I did tell my son to keep a look out. I did stay longer than I should have. I said so earlier. The "bait" should have been hidden at that point but my attire didn't allow it....again my fault.

What you should understand however is everything didn't just happen at once and I walked into it knowingly. I should have left once I saw the poor people even thought they looked harmless and didn't pay us any mind. I should have left when I saw the clothing under the bridge. I should have tucked away my chain (just in case). I did a bunch of stuff wrong. The reason I posted was to share my good, bad, and SLOW decisions.

As for thisThis is different from what you wrote in your first post:


I was simply trying to explain to David that because I said for my son to lookout doesn't necessarily mean a bad area because I do it in good areas as well. During that trip it was obviously a low income area.

I was in condition yellow on the fishing trip. I just waited a tad to long to react to what was happening. Like I said son was having fun fishing and things didn't happen all at once.

[threegun]

People are questioning the judgement you displayed by hanging around fishing in an area that you recognized was questionable, while you and your son wore gold chains, making yourselves look like bait.


And they should question my judgment. I hung around to long in hindsight. I believe that we would have been victims with or without the chains. If you were there I bet you would feel the same. Anyway we got out safely. Boy is smarter for it. Daddy is smarter for it. No bad guys were injured. We caught a few fish too.

[JoeBlackSpade]

We caught a few fish too.


That's the MAIN thing!

Spoken like a true fisherman.

[David Armstrong]

For goodness sake. You guys are still arguing about chains and watches.
Well, while the focus may still be on watches and chains, I hope that I have conveyed the idea that the fancy jewelry is just a symbol of a much larger problem that many people display, IMO.
You can't always be in condition yellow, or red, or whatever.
Correct, thus the importance of understanding risk issues beforehand and making informed decisions, such as Farnam’s “stealth existence” idea.

[David Armstrong]

My point is that these items, your rolex or my chain, attract bad guys. You can't say that you wear yours when it won't attract bad guys because you never know who the bad guy is.
And I have never said anything like that. I have always said that the choice to wear for me is based in part on appropriate time and place. The likelihood of a BG being around figures into that.
You are thinking of my job.....pawnshop manager in a not so nice section of town.
Actually I wasn’t thinking of that at all, but since you bring it up yes, it seems applicable.
My point was that wearing jewelry attracts bad guys and is never necessary. You can't guarentee that your Rolex won't attract a bad guy simply by wearing it to a business luncheon.
Again you seem to keep missing the basic concept. Few things in life can be guaranteed. But most things can be looked at as increasing or decreasing likelihood of certain events. For example, while fishing in a bad part of town with an expensive chain on would increase the likelihood of encountering problems, those problems are almost nonexistent at the business luncheon. And I can guarantee that if I felt there was a chance of such a problem at the luncheon I would not go there, certainly not with extensive valuables tossed into the mix.

But at this point We seem to be going round and round with what I think is a very simple concept that some seem to find impossible to understand, and I don't see any improvement in the future, so I'm done. You may have the last word.

[m-g willy]

I guess we should just turn everything over to the bad guys and hide in our houses?
What happens when a car load of thugs pull into the gas station behind you?Do you stay inside the station till they leave, or drive off without getting your gas?
Would you leave a resturant before finishing your meal if a group of undesirables came in?

Come on!

This is a free country -go where you want -sometime you might have to stand up to trouble.
(The guy that stopped and looked at you then looked around )
You should have confronted him with a "hey bud ,you looking for something"
Let him know you are watching him!

Your not the hunted your the hunter!

Willy

[wayneinFL]

I don't think threegun made any mistakes by fishing in an area like that. It's not unusual to see a few homeless hanging around a bridge. It's a good place to get out of the rain.

As for the expensive fishing tackle, if you are going to leave it at home when fishing, why have it?

As for the gold chain, so what? Sounds like they were sticking out like a sore thumb anyway. Two clean, white fishermen in a neighborhood like that- I wouldn't doubt they saw him get out of his car, and it's probably not something like my '88 ford wagon- they knew he had money, that he had something to steal.

[threegun]

Wayne, Actually I drive a 92 Camry. Looks and drives like great but doesn't attract attention. Aside the chain I am pretty conservative.

[threegun]

David, You scolded me for wearing the chain as it is an attractant to bad guys.......and I agree. My point has been that your Rolex is just as attracting. While you can control the times and places you wear it to reduce its negative effect on your safety, it is still a negative effect on your safety. I would expect someone so thoughtful and thorough as yourself to never bring unwanted negative attention to themselves needlessly.

Your business luncheon would definitely offer less chance of attracting a bad guy while wearing your rolex but it only takes one bad guy. I feel it is hypocritical to say don't do this because it increases danger and then you do it also.

It seems that you have justified the use of your "bling" as okay because you choose the time and place to wear it. I promise you that it is attracting attention each and every time you put it on.......BOTH GOOD AND BAD ATTENTION.....I hope you understand that.