Post Ban Guns--is the 9mm obsolete?

[Piggy]

I was wanting a new Glock 17 or 19 but I figured why bother. I would have been more than happy with a gun that can hold 17 rounds of 9mm ammo but since the magazine ban, you have the choice between 10 rounds of 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 and .45 in comparibly sized packages. Why would anyone choose 10 rounds of 9mm over 10 rounds of .40 or better? I know the price of 9mm ammo is slightly cheaper than .40 ammo, but is that the only reason?

[RikWriter]

Well, unless you live in one of the two or three states that have banned sale or posession of preban hicaps, Glock preban hicap mags are very plentiful and easy to find. A bit pricey, but if you shop around and don't insist on drop frees you can find them for under $50.

[six 4 sure]

I have to agree with RikWriter. It's not as easy or a cheap as it used to be, but hi-cap pre-ban mags are still pretty easy to find.
If you're looking Glock, just remember to buy factory hi-cap mags. They will be more expensive than aftermarket, but they will be more reliable.
It has been my experience that hi-cap mags for the Browning Hi-Ppower and the Beretta 92 are a little cheaper than the Glock if cost is a concern.

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As to marksmanship, it is not what you once did, rather it is what you can do on demand.

[Destructo6]

I'd have to agree to some extent. One of the major factors in my buying a 9mm pistol was the fact that I could stuff 15+ cartridges in the mag. With that option missing in new pistol designs, like the HK USP, I'd think that most people would looking at either ultra compacts or larger calibers, maybe a combo of the two. After not having much interest in larger calibers, I find myself looking for something in either .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

[JG]

Thats debateable, I happen to really like the 9mm round- it may not be my top choice for defense (not that its bad, but of course we know there is better).
But I love target shooting with 9mm, its so much fun- its accurate, very little recoil, like shooting a pellet gun (well, to me anyway). Yes of course 22lr is really like shooting a pellet gun, but if I want to shoot a larger caliber-the 9mm is great, doesn't wear on me after 100 rounds (where .40 and 357sig-start turning my palm beat red after 50-60 rounds)-especially 357Sig.

So there will always be a place for 9mm handguns (compact and midsize) in my safe- even ones restricted to 10rounds.

[JackNKoch]

I've purchased a few high capacity pistols since the '94 law. With the exception of one .40 S&W (which was later traded) they have all been 9X19mm. The latest was a Browning High Power purchased about a month ago. A Glock 19 is next on the must have list. If I didn't have to spend so much on all these magazines, or these guns were unavailable, I would buy a HK P7M8 or SIG P210-6. Long live the nine millimeter!

[Ala Dan]

Greetings, Why 15 round magazines? If you
are a good shot as most who post here say
they are; you shouldn't need 15 rounds to
disperse of the bad guy. Only when dealing
with multiple adversaies should one ever
need 15 rounds or more. For one BG, 15+
rounds of 9m/m is an over kill; and the
court's will have your fanny for that big
mistake. :) That's my opinion; what is your's?

Best Wishes To All,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Message edited by Dan H. Ford on 01-11-00

[Ice Man]

Ala Dan, my friend, Why oh why do you need that big 8 cylinder engine in your car when the rest of the world gets along just fine with 4 (or 3 here in japan--on trucks even)? Why do you covet broadband internet access when your 56k modem gets the job done just fine? You really didnt need that 19" monitor when the 15 incher was working fine, did you? And look at Intel and AMD and the MHz race. You can never have enough firepower, just as you can never have enough bandwidth, money, training, gigabytes, pixels or------fill in the blank.

God I miss the States. Why don't you come live overseas and drive an anemic little 3-banger car on the wrong side of the road and have no firepower, and I'll come back home to my 911 and hi-caps and 50 cal? (and dog)

END of rant

[denfoote]

Is the 9mm obsolete? Not at all!!!! I own three of them! My primary carry pistol is of a post ban design, so although hi-cap mags are available (they are still imported from Germany and sold to regular Joes like me! :)),they are very expensive. I just carry more magazines to make up for the loss of six rounds!! :D Besides, good shot placement beats big bullet and/or high cap any day of the week!

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Just as there is no such thing as too much fun,
there is no such thing as owning just one gun!!!

Now, go do the right thing, and buy that Walther!!

[Ossi]

9mm is all but obsolate, it's getting new users around the world all the time. I have read that even Russia is starting to issue 9mm to their military. As a defence round, 9mm loaded with good JHPs is nearly as good stopper as any handgun round can be (100 percent stopping power from a handgun is impossible), and recoils less than those slightly superior in that respect, making faster follow up shots possible than heavier calibers. And of course, in my country (Finland) like most other countries of the world outside North America we can still buy mags of any capacity we want.

Ossi

[HowardK]

One of the biggest reasons for shooting a 9mm is the cost of the ammo. Practice is important and I can get twice the practice in cost-wise using a 9mm compared to a .40 or .45.

[Tecolote]

9mm is obsolete. Send me your 9mm pistols and I will dispose of them properly. ;)

The Glocks 17 and 19 are excellent. I prefer the latter because it's more compact, but even with 10 rounds it's a great pistol. If you want something smaller consider getting a Glock 26. You'll be well served by either of these pistols.

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So many pistols, so little money.

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited January 11, 2000).]

[KAM_Indianapolis]

My reason for choosing 9mm over .40s&w, .357sig, and .45, I shoot it well. I am more accurate with it, and it is a reliable, proven round. Heck, it's been around a century it cant be all bad. Being able to practice for an hour at a time, 300-500 rounds into the target. Practice, practice, practice. And the last rounds on target are just as accurate as the 1st rounds. No fatigue.

I have two handguns at the moment. I've been able to find standard capacity magazines for both, a Taurus 99 (15 rnd), and a S&W 669 (12 rnd). So I normally carry either 30rnds or 24rnds of 9mm Remington 124gr Golden Sabers. Heck if I were limited to diminished capacity magazines (10rnd) so I would carry 3 instead of 2 magazines.


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Peace through superior firepower...
Keith

If the 2nd is antiquated, what will happen to the rest.
"the right to keep and bear arms."

[labgrade]

I shoot a BHP in 9 because that's what I shoot best. Platform has a lot do with my choice.

& as far as availability - $14.97/ProMag for BHP 13 rounder in CTD ... gonna order a coupla more in about 10 minutes. ;)

[Joseph]

Piggy,

No offense intended here, but how could you even think of putting a term of obsolete next to a round which is probably supported by more handguns and sells more ammo than any single caliber out there worldwide.

It is wonderful to shoot, inexpensive, reliable, controllable (which alone makes most civilian shooters *more accurate* than any other round without going down in caliber), and kills dead, dead, dead when needed, God forbid.

Most 9mm owners on this forum have other calibers, as well, but would be loath to declare their 9's as obsolete. ;)

[Dr.Rob]

Shoot whatever caliber you can shoot best. Practice with your reduced capacity magazines, load your standard capacity magazines for "business".

Your 10 rounders are replaceable, your 17 rounders are too for the moment but are more expensive.

There has been a lot of talk like "well if I can only have ten.. might as well be ten rounds of 45, 357, 44 etc etc etc. Better to be able to HIT your target with 6 rounds of 38, than miss with 17 or 10 of another caliber.

Dr.Rob

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Lots of very serious folk carry 9 mms.

As a shootable package in the smaller guns,
you can't beat it.

I can shoot the 40 versions just fine but
settled on carrying the 9s.

[ckurts]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RikWriter:
Well, unless you live in one of the two or three states that have banned sale or posession of preban hicaps, Glock preban hicap mags are very plentiful and easy to find. A bit pricey, but if you shop around and don't insist on drop frees you can find them for under $50.[/quote]

RikWriter, give us a shout as to where those sub-$50 Glock full cap mags are. I went looking right after I got my M23 and the cheapest I found for nondrops was $75.

[BigG]

Nope, my Luger still shoots just fine. It only carries eight in the handle, though. :D
IMHO, Lugers are the Mercedes-Benz of 9 Mike Mikes. :D :D

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

[Dr.Rob]

Big G.. meaning overpriced and over engineered marvels that require lots of TLC and regular maintenance?? ;)

Just kidding.. but when you ccw that thing do you dress like Dr.No or just opt for the black leather trenchcoat? ;)

Nice to see your posting. Is yours vintage or a modern made Mauser or Mitchell arms luger?

Dr.Rob

[Piggy]

Well I didn't mean to insult the 9mm cartridge, I like it a lot and thats why I was considering a G17 or G19. I have a SIG P229 in .40 and a Witness .45 as well as a .38 special, so I have all I need for defense purposes. Besides, here in South Texas, the crime section of the paper is usually filled with stories like, "27 Year- old Woman Calls Police After Man Calls Her 'Stupid'" (that was an actual story), so my pistols are mainly for fun. My main reason for considering the Glock 9mm was 1) Increased mag capacity at the range means more time shooting; 2) reduced recoil of the 9mm makes for a fun day of marathon shooting; 3)Obvious cost advantage and availability of ammo;4) can shoot the heck out of the Glock without worrying about wear and tear (I like to keep my SIG in perfect condition)5) Finally, I don't have a 9mm so I want one :)
The thrust of my question was that, being a bit of a cheapo when it comes to budgeting, would it be worth it to buy a post ban 9mm, especially when the high caps they have here in TX are going for $100. I know that LE and the military will always have a place for the 9mm; I should have stated that I was referring to the civilian market when using the term "obsolete". Thanks for all the replies fellas...18 responses in less than 12 hours!! BTW I don't mean this to be a 9mm vs. .40 thread...just an honest debate about the merrits of the post-ban 9mm for the civilian market and what some of you members feel about the issue.

[This message has been edited by Piggy (edited January 11, 2000).]

[EQUALIZER]

I don't think that 9mm is obsolete. In its better hollow point designs, especially in its hotter loads, the data available to us shows very little difference with 40 or 45ACP. Common Handgun cartridges, as small and slow as they can push bullets through short tubes are all pretty enemic when compared to long guns. When comparing 9mm to 40S&W, try to keep in mind the same comparison to typical long gun calibers, or even the less common 45 Super, etc.

According to my opinion, for what its worth, its the 1) training and 2) gun and 3)load selection within the caliber that is far more important than the little bit of difference between hollow pt. 9s and 40s and 45s.

The question posed makes for interesting conversation though.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)

[EQUALIZER]

I don't think that 9mm is obsolete. In its better hollow point designs, especially in its hotter loads, the data available to us shows very little difference with 40 or 45ACP. Common Handgun cartridges, as small and slow as they can push bullets through short tubes are all pretty enemic when compared to long guns. When comparing 9mm to 40S&W, try to keep in mind the same comparison to typical long gun calibers, or even the less common 45 Super, etc.

According to my opinion, for what its worth, its the 1) training and 2) gun and 3)load selection within the caliber that is far more important than the little bit of difference between hollow pt. 9s and 40s and 45s.

The question posed makes for interesting conversation though.

PS: The fact that public servants in a "free" country like ours enact laws which have anything to do with weapons is tyrany. period. exclamation pt! Advice, buy what you like. Practice with it and enjoy it.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)

[Will Beararms]

Piggy:

Another round that is obselete is the .30-.30 just don't tell that to the man in Arkansas who owns the slaughter house where our deer are dressed out.

If you are proficient with a larger caliber, by all means avail yourself of the extra power but don't discount the 9mm.

These types of debates sell gun rags. Remember, in the Miami shootout, the BG's were well experienced and I believe both had formal advanced Military training. If I'm not mistaken, they began the firefight by shooting under the cars at the LEO's feet thereby disabling them from the get/go.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."


[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited January 11, 2000).]

[Joseph]

Where can I find news reports on the "Miami Shootout". I guess I missed that one.

[Destructo6]

I never said 9mm Para was a crap round. What I was saying is that the future trend will be toward pistols that are smaller in size and fire larger caliber cartridges. Hi-cap 9mm mags will eventually become outrageously expensive, if they're not that now, and new models won't even have that option. It's not going to disappear, probably ever, but it's supremacy will begin to deline.

[Walt Welch]

Will Beararms; you are mistaken. The 1986 FBI shootout was started by Platt shooting his mini-14 at the FBI car adjacent to him, and then at another FBI car which was approaching. Platt was later hit in the foot, which caused him little, if any, incapacity. Here is the URL where you can read the entire story:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Read it; there are lots of mistakes made by the Feebies, which probably accounts for the fact that the reconstruction of events and the autopsy results weren't released until 10 years later. Hope this helps, Walt

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Piggy. No! It's my belief that 9mm is not obsolete nor will it be for a great time. It remains one of the most efficient cartridges out there in terms of ft/sec vs gr of powder and its diminuitive size allows you to either make small, concealable "carry" guns chambered for it or service pistols that hold a sizable number of rounds. Don't forget that the '94 "Assault Gun" Ban will eventually sunset and if not re-enacted, high cap mags as well as the rest are no longer verboten. All that's required is a less anti-gun president and a Congress about like what's there now or better! In any event politics aside, I think the 9mm will be around for quite a long while. Best.

[ChuteTheMall]

I would have thought that the .32 was made obsolete by the .380 when similiar guns became available in the bigger caliber, but the .32 is growing fast. The same thing happened when the .40S&W tried to displace the 9mm. I chose the 40S&W for my hi-cap gun, but the slightly smaller 9mm is fine in my little Kel-Tec P-11. The 38spl survived the new 357 magnum back in 1935.

The point is smaller and lighter guns, combined with advances in ammo technology, are keeping each of the smaller alternatives desirable. I'll probably buy another 9mm, they will always be with us.

Say good riddence to the .25 though. :p

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Teach a non-shooter to shoot. Educate a voter.

[Will Beararms]

Walt Welch thanks for the site and for setting me straight on the Miami Shootout.

Destructo thanks for setting me straight as well. I still lean towards a Commander Style 1911 chambered for .45ACP since the 1994 "Crime Bill" was forced on us.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."

[Futo Inu]

Personally, at present I am still optimistic about the 10-round limit sunsetting or being repealed, at which time 9mm will make an incredible resurgence (if it happens). Remember, it's the world standard as the NATO round. I believe the '94 gun ban is clearly violative of the second amendment period, and if not repealed or overturned, should serve one of the bases for revolution or secession. Once down the slippery slope too far, there's no going back. Until repeal, overturn, or revolution, I'm buying hi-caps and looking for a G34 in 9mm.

[Futo Inu]

Oh yeah, Get a Kel-Tec or a G26 and 10 rounds is about all they will hold anyway, and you've got a great, super-concealable pistol with a great cartridge. I'd get the Kel-Tec though because the G27 is the same size as the G26, but the P40 is bigger than the P11, I think. There's a reason to still buy a 9mm.

[Tecolote]

I hope the mag limit gets repealed. It won't happen if we sit on our rumps, however. Join the NRA, JOA, JFF, any pro-2nd Amendment org is better than none. Only through hard work will this happen. What won't happen is that the ban will sunset. It's not part of th Brady Bill but instead a rider tagged onto the Clinton Crime Bill. We can thank our spineless reps for letting that one through.

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So many pistols, so little money.

[Futo Inu]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's not part of th Brady Bill but instead a rider tagged onto the Clinton Crime Bill. [/B][/quote]


Tec, please tell us more about what you know. What is "it" in the above quote from you? Which one will sunset? Brady check system or 94 crime bill, and in whole or part? Thanks.

[Erik]

The 9mm has been around for a long time. It is one of the oldest auto rounds onthe shelf. It works. It is the most popular handgun/subgun round on the planet.

I think it is fair to say that it will be around a tad while longer.

Erik

[BigG]

Yep, jes' wif' my Luger, I can't miss as much as y'all wif' yer hi-caps!! LOL ;)

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

[Tecolote]

Fotoinu,

The Brady Bill is scheduled to sunset, the Clinto Crime Bill has no such limitation. Only a repeal from congress can eliminate the ten rounds limit.

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So many pistols, so little money.