GOAT TESTS!!!

[pluspinc]

A few years back the Stausbourgh Goat "tests" showed up in some gun rags. It was quickly debunked as pure BS and most gun rags ran from anymore mention of this nonsense. HOWEVER, the most famous article was by Ed Sanow and trying to figure out where he got it has been an experience. Some nit wits still cling to the idea they ever took place.
I have made it a study of mine to find out the source of this snake oil they tried to sell shooters. Emails to the various people with some knowledge went unanswered (like Mag-Safe who packs that article in thier shipments) and I even offered CASH to find out to no avail. WELL, I do believe I found the source at last but would like more input and this bunch seems brighter than the average shooters on the web. MUCH brighter.
Has anyone heard anything on this issue that may aid me in my search. Total confidence assured unless you want to post here. I recently contacted the largest goat owners association in the world, and they claim if such tests EVER took place they would have heard of it for various reasons, but they are looking into it. I'm a big fan of exposing gun rag myths whenever possible. If you have any input let me know. Just don't try to tell me they ever took place. That was settled long ago. Now time to find out WHO did it. Well?

[John Overbey]

At the risk of looking stupid...... HUHH??!! Please explain.... Goat Tests?
-John

[Lavan]

That kind of stuff really gets my goat.

[Lavan]

Oh........waiddaminnit! Maybe it is goat TESTES. Goats do have testes. But not all goats. Just Billy goats. Not all Billys have testes. Like Clinton.
Nanny goats don't have testes either. But they do have udders. But you didn't ask the udder question. You asked THIS question.
I am now fully confused.

[Rob96]

The "Goat Tests" were supposedly conducted to test different manufacturers ammo in Terminal Performance ie; a live goat was shot and then timed to see how many seconds it took for "incapicatation". I have read that they actually took place and that they didn't take place.

[denfoote]

I can see why noboby wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole!!! If it were true,the "animal rights", and the anti-gun people would be all over it like stink on s@@t!!!!
The fact that they are not on it, even to this day, speaks to it's being "bunk".

[Tango27]

You know, some people may laugh, but I live in fear of the day when a crazed goat comes after me. I've got special targets made with a goat printed on them so I have plenty of practice shooting at their specific "kill zone." They're a wiley bunch too--waiting up there in the mountains so they can come down and pounce on some unsuspecting villager...

Come on. The similarities between a goat and a crazed lunatic are to severe for such tests to have much practical value. Now if they were shooting gorillas on the other hand...

Tango

Come to think of it, it's been a while since I've gone to the zoo...

[Erik]

Killing goats with less than a .308 from extreme range has been proven tactically unsound, and should be avoided. :-)

I'm glad someone else makes a hobby of debunking the gun rag bunch... I read an article several years refuting the whole goat myth- I'll see if I can dig it up, though it probably ended up in the dumpster years ago.

Erik

[Walt Welch]

Check out the Firearms Tactical Institute site: http://www.firearmstactical.com/
for information on this subject.

Here is what Marvin Fackler has to say about the Strasbourg Tests on the FTI site:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "The 'Strasbourg Tests:' Another Gunwriter/Bullet Salesman Fraud?" Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 10-11; 1994.

Dr. Martin Fackler, IWBA president, reviews the authorless "Strasbourg Tests," a purported study of the reaction of several hundred live unanesthetized "human-sized" goats that were allegedly shot to test the "one-shot stopping power" of various handgun cartridges. Fackler explains the many incongruities, inconsistencies and absurdities which lead him (and most other wound ballistics experts) to conclude that the "Strasbourg Tests" are a hoax.

Fackler concludes: "The only people who believe the 'Strasbourg Tests' are real are the usual crowd of crackpot 'magic' bullet believers and the pathetically incompetent editors of consumer gun magazines like Guns & Ammo."[/quote]

I have never seen evidence to support that the tests actually occured. Walt

[Schmit]

Pluspinc.

Do I know for a fact if the Stausbourgtests took place... no. However, if they didn't than someone when to alot of trouble to produce to get the rumor started.

If they did take place I can understand why participants are being closed mouth about it. If you were say a Military Member/Govt LEO/Business CEO that did participate in the test would you want it to get out?

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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[Lavan]

Perhaps they were not goats. Perhaps they were sheep clandestinely posing as goats. In which case it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot them as posing as a goat is a capital offense in the sheep laws.

[Gino]

pluspinc,
Good luck! I really, really hate all of the unsubstantiated garbage that is thrown at us.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I hear they are being re-done in France using
big blocks of Chevre instead of ballistic
gelatin. That should make Fackler happy.

Anyway, Ayoob said they didn't happen.
Speir says they did.

But that's clever asking the goat association,
Darrell.

Sometimes at TX ranges that Dennis and I frequent, you have to stop shooting for the
goats that wander by. Hmmm?

[fastforty]

I recently (within the last two years) read something similar in a newsstand zine. Only it was cows. They had a whole list of all of the ammo, and trajectories. None of the cows died very fast, and after being shot numerous times over the course of a 1/2 hour or so, most were bludgeoned. I guess those tests were simulating REALLY BIG BG's wearing leather jackets?

Oh yeah, a billygoat without testes is a "wither". BBQ bait.

[CrowShooter]

I don't know about the goats and don't care. Sounds like a big waste of time, especially if Ayoob has anything to do with it. The cow thing, I think, is true, and dates back to the original testing of 230 hardball.

CS

[nyeti]

Ditto Fackler, the only bigger wannabe dork out there than Ayoob is Sanow. I think he has been standing in that cornfield (scientific lab) waaaay too long. More garbage to feed the gun rags.

[plateshooter]

I can tell you that the Military killed many goats in the 60s using GB nerve agent, and for testing the special frag ammo developed for use in VN. We were stopped from using live goats at that time and had to use movies (VCRs weren't used then :-) in our classes. We also went through many rabbits, and pigeons.

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter

[George Hill]

Not the biggest Dorks are Chuck Taylor and Dr Ignatius Piazza...
Those guys... Dont get me started.


First off - Taylor... Unqualified - and teaches WRONG and Dangerous methods.

Front Sight's founder Dr Ignatius. Let me put it this way - Your little Girl wants to learn Ballet. You can take her to Michael Barishnicov (or how ever you spell his name - my wife knows him) the famous Russian Dancer - or you can take your little girl to a guy who took classes from the master for a couple weeks at most. You decide - both schools cost about the same. Where do you want to go?

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud

[pluspinc]

My goal is the constant disclosure of the BS in gun rags and I feel the internet and newsgroups like this are taking the wind out of their BS sales. It is interesting to note that the gun rag writer types do NOT appear on forums like this or even offer an email option in most cases. The web has helped share GOOD information and debunk the nonsense. The goat test thing is a black mark on the shooting community, the gun rag writers thougth we were totally stupid and always have as they hype crap and try to SELL us things for thier bennefit. Appreciate the input so far. I'm working on a project where I debunk others. My next one is "muscle memory reflex." What a hoax that one was and is. Stay tuned.

[Schmit]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is interesting to note that the gun rag writer types do NOT appear on forums like this or even offer an email option in most cases. [/quote]

Very broad general statement that there

I beg to differ. I personally know two gunzine writers that, not only DO appear on a couple forums but are also an Administator and a Moderator on one.

Also, if you define "Gun Rag Writer Type" as someone who has been published in a Firearms publication, then there are many more, who while not regularly published (monthly column or such) are Members of Forums.

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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[JimR]

It's clear from the responses that many do not know what pluspinc is talking about wrt the Strasbourg Tests. Here is a link to some info on the tests: Strasbourg Tests Overview (http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/strasbourgoverview.htm)

Note that Towert admits that he is unsure about the authenticity of the tests, but then goes on to reference/use them extensively. Did I miss something there?

pluspinc, good luck in your quest. Please let us know what you find, even if it's "I can't find anything to prove or disprove."

JimR

[pluspinc]

The burden isn't on me to PROVE anything. It is on the presenter. Those rules don't change cuz it's about guns. Also there is NO proof of anykind. What you show as "proof" is a re-burbing of what was in the gun rags. If you buy that you should avoid those late night infomercials. Amazing what snake oil shooters will buy. This is a PRIME example. Maybe all of us on this board need to come up with our own "tests" to prove something. I have a Siberian Husky that seems indestructable. How about the "Husky Tests?" I'll volunteer "Pookie." We don't even have to do it, just write up something "that sounds good" and let the shooting community buy into it. Who needs proof of anything?
You sure won't find ANY with the goat tests.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.

[VictorLouis]

While I do not always agree with Taylor/Ayoob/G-writers, I feel that personal attacks are out of line. It is up to us, the readers, to try and distill some benefit for ourselves out of other's methods of teaching.
I've received a largely positive benefit from Taylor and Ayoob specifically. They have been involved w/firearms training for over 25 years. It would be less that prudent to NOT heed some of their wisdom. Tempered, of course, with my earlier statement.
I would like to see more postings from plusp on these frauds as they are discovered. Personally, I believe the 'zines have just about worn out every subject they cover. That which appears "fresh", I can usually digest in 10 mins. while standing in front of the supermarket newsrack.

[RikWriter]

George, I can't really agree about Chuck Taylor. True, he does follow Ayoob in skimming the bottom of the pool to dredge up whatever support he can for his pet theories of defensive handguns techniques, but at least the man HAS "seen the Elephant." Ayoob never has. I would be a lot more comfortable taking advice from someone that has actually been in combat than from a lifelong reserve cop who has never even fired a shot in the line of duty.

[kraMrD]

When I was a dentist in the Navy 92-95, we were required to attend a Combat Casualty Care Course (C4) when assigned to an operational billet.

Part of this course, we would operate on live goats. They would anesthetize the goat and we would perform various surgical procedures. This is only part of the current curriculum of this course.

In years past, they used to literally shoot the poor goat and then the course students would have to try and "save" the goats life. In the end, the goat is put down as they still do...

M.

[Futo Inu]

Lavan, you're baaaaaaaaaaaad.

[Correia]

Goat tested a 45-70 with some hot loaded 400 grain handloads one time. Pretty cool effect actually. Though it wasn't a very big goat, didn't have any "man-size" goats handy.

Incapacitation time: 0.01 seconds
Height in air reached by goat: 6+ feet.
Number of flips in air: 2
Value to wound ballistic science: Priceless :)

[Grayfox]

I don't believe these tests ever happened. But, it would make an interesting project. Maybe somebody ought to do it for real. But, let's not waste a bunch of good goats. Let's use a much more abundant vermin animal like say lawyers and politicians? :p :D

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Strength is the outcome of need; security sets a premium on feebleness. H.G. Wells The Time Machine

[jeffelkins]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RikWriter:
George, I can't really agree about Chuck Taylor... but at least the man HAS "seen the Elephant." [/quote]

My wife and I will be taking a tactical handgun class from Chuck in March. I've cooresponded with him several times via email and he's been unfailingly polite and informative.

I'll be sure to post details regarding the class after I attend.

[01paw]

ROTFLMAO! Oh, man. Please guys, stop! Lavan, you're a riot. Laughing so hard I cant breathe. :) I'm very glad there are others out there that believe as I do: that there are no magic bullets, the "goat tests" are the figment of some twisted individual's over active imagination (probably Sanow himself), and I swear, if I read/hear another OSS percentile used as fact, I'll vomit all over my keyboard. Plusp: Good luck in your quest. Your efforts are admirable, and I'd love to hear what you come up with.

Thanks again for making me smile this morning, guys :)

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi

[Tecolote]

Is it fair then to add these Goat Tests to the list of often told yet untrue tales such as?:

The monkey’s paw.
The pregnant man in the Philippines.
The fried rat in a box of Kentucky fried chicken.
The wedding band in a can of spam.
Alligators in Florida toilets.
Feral giant rats that resemble Chihuahuas and are bought by unwitting tourists.
Prostitutes that drug johns to steal their kidneys.
South American children given Tickle Me Elmos in exchange for their eyes.
Etc. etc


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So many pistols, so little money.

[DC]

Were any of these dead goats then turned into chili? Mighty fine eatin'! If not, what a shameful waste :)

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

[nobody]

Back in the early eighties, when I was associated with the JFK Special Warfare Center, the final exam for the Special Forces Medics course consisted of stabilizing a goat that had been shot. I don't know if they still do this. Goats really get the short end of the stick, eh?

[Erik]

Well I looked all around- I must have thrown out the article(s).

Erik

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I worked in a med school, they got flack for burning dogs under heavy anaesthesia and letting them be treated with experimental procedures. The dogs never came out of it.
They had to stop.

As far as Ayoob, I took LFI-1 and really thought I got a lot out of it. Since I'm a real researcher/scientist, I've got pretty good critical skills - so I take what I can from Ayoob, Hamilton or listening to Darrell.

I read plenty of contradictory literature in other areas so the gun world is no different.
Cup you hand and catch the round or sling shot it. Heard both from big names - so what.
No real data on this.

Ayoob doesn't believe in the goat tests.

I have a problem with them being so secret in detail for so long. Nothing else has been keep secret under intense scrutiny. Everybody blabs. If the test were really done, we'd know it by now. If super secret spooks did it, do you think that they would allow the original Handguns article to come out.

[AC]

pluspinc,
Your post referred to "pure BS, snake oil, gun rags, nonsense" and anyone that doesn't accept your point of view is a "nit wit". Is it any wonder your emails go unanswered?

Then you say, "Now time to find out who did it". Did what? You said the tests never happened. Or do you mean who did the coverup? I'm not too into conspiracy theories, but would think you might attribute this all to total fabrication by Ed Sanow. Are you contending someone fabricated all the data and gave it to him and he was merely duped?

Sorry I can't follow your thought, but I'm a nitwit.

[Shin-Tao]

A variation of this goat test actualy occured durring the early selection process for our standard service pistol before the first world war. The 1911 and it's cartridge was judged superior.
It is entirely possible interests in other countries repeated the test and do not want to clarify their identities.
Then again, I carry MagSafes, so I...Well... I hope the tests weren't bunk...

[Jim V]

If the tests were really conducted, what would they prove? Shooting an anesthetized Alpine goat with a handgun and waiting for it to become incapacitated will tell you NOTHING about how the same round will work on some 6' 4", 250 monster doped up on PCP.



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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

[Spectre]

Hm...I had never realized there were supposedly several hundred goats killed. There would be some major cost there, right? If that type of money were tossed around, one could expect, at the least, some pictures...and a project of this magnitude would have at least one or two people coming forward screaming (in high-pitched "Urkle" voice) "Oh, I did that! I was there! I shot a goat!" Considering human nature, more likely quite a few people would be stepping forward. Based on these (I feel, realistic) assumptions of how humans work, the tests seem unlikely.

I was relieved to find this thread was about the incapacitation/damage goat tests. I was kinda afraid to open it! ;)

[denfoote]

All these tests about what ammo does what. How many shots it takes to put the bad man down. Who cares!! You fire as many times as it takes to stop the BG. Put your shots in the right place, shot after shot, and it usually doesn't matter how big the bullet is, or if it breaks up into little pieces, or not. Metal going into a human body will do damage enough metal going in will cause a lot of damage. A good rule of thumb taught by my instructor (a LEO from Mesa AZ) is "Good shot placement beats big bullet any day of the week".

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Just as there is no such thing as too much fun,
there is no such thing as owning just one gun!!!

Now, go do the right thing, and buy that Walther!!

[dvc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RikWriter:
George, I can't really agree about Chuck Taylor. True, he does follow Ayoob in skimming the bottom of the pool to dredge up whatever support he can for his pet theories of defensive handguns techniques, but at least the man HAS "seen the Elephant."[/quote]


Ok, Chuck may have seen the elephant, now its up to us to decide whether or not it was a PINK elephant or a regular everyday elephant...