As a general rule, don't face down four men with long guns with a handgun

[Rant Casey]

I'll start with a little background info here. I live on a fairly large parcel of land, secluded from any other homes. Basically, it's a lot of woods, then a very large clearing. I don't see anyone on my property unexpected, ever and I have no neighbors. This morning I went out to do some groccery shopping, came onto my road and noticed a car parked suspeciously close to my house where I see four men in their early 20's walking around the back of my house all carrying rifles and shotguns. Here's the situation, my fiance is home alone and a relatively recently injured paraplegic. There are guns availible to her and she knows how to shoot, but not against four armed men. I get no cell phone service at my house, no one does. Even if I had cell coverage, no police would possibly make it to my house in time. I did what I thought was right, hid my car out of sight and ran towards them with their backs facing me. I got within maybe 20 yards of them after a 100 yard dash, gun drawn on them and made sure they realized they were not getting a second warning to drop their guns. Guns dropped on the ground, hands in the air turning slowly, about to crap themselves. I was kind of shocked they were the scared ones. It turns out I knew one of them and he was a friend of my fiance and he had been shooting out back of my house on my range. It seems he had called my house, left a msg then she called him back and said it was ok to come shooting at the house. It all went bad because no one told me anything, it had slipped her mind completely. I almost ended up in a gun battle with 4 armed young men in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no cover armed with a glock 21. I'm confident in my skills, but that is not the ideal situation for anyone to be in, bringing a handgun to a rifle fight. Here's the ironic part, I carry an Ar 15 empty with 5 mags in the back of my vehicle, had I not just barreled out of the vehicle I could have engaged them from a much safer distance, from cover and had them drop their weapons before advancing, but I admit I paniced a bit and barely even put the truck in park. In all honestly, I'm surprised everyone came out of this unscathed, this is my worst case scenario that I had hoped to be prepared for, and it was a false alarm.

In the end I invited them in my house, apologized if I scared them but let them know how close they came to dying (that was me being cocky). They were cool about it, the other three guys were a little shaken though. I let them know that they're welcome to come shoot here, however they need to let ME know, so next time I don't remember the ar in the back of my vehicle.


Just curious, how many of you would have shot first? I'm still a little shook up over it, because I realize that I almost shot four innocent men or engaged in an open gun fight with four people while drastically underarmed.

[Creature]

whoa...I think I would have called with my cell to warn the wife as I was making my way to the house on foot. I haved learned from my years in the military to always report (ie...pick up the phone) before engaging in any action alone.

[fastforty]

Pretty scarey situation, probably would have reacted much as you did (& not shooting them on sight). This is a perfect example of WHY you must identify a threat & wait until it IS a threat. If one of them had pointed a rifle in my general direction, it would have ended a LOT different then it did.

[Rant Casey]

No cell phone service where I live, have to drive about 15 minutes to get service. Like I said, worst case scenario.

[Creature]

No cell service...I missed that. That's bad.

[striker3]

I get no cell phone service at my house, no one does.

Obviously he could not call ahead...

That is a very tough situation. I think that next time maybe you should take the time to run a few tactical actions through your head, such as grab the AR :)

OTOH, lets say that you, like most people did not have a long gun handy. The best bet may have been to drive your vehicle towards your house. Inside the vehicle, driving towards them you have the engine block to provide cover. Driving towards them would have also given you the opportunity to get a better look and possibly recognize the man ou knew, or at the least, see what their reaction to you arriving was like. Once you are near the house, and if you are still unsure of their intentions, get out and use the vehicle as cover while you covered them with your pistol. If shooting had started, you would have had decent cover while they were in the open, while also positioning yourself closer to get into the house where I presume that you have long guns and a land line.

[Rant Casey]

Ironically, the vehicle mentioned is an H1 hummer, which would provide ideal cover as far as civilian non armored vehicles are concerned, hell it could provide cover for a platoon. Like I said though, this exact scenario was never played out in my mind before, one of the few that hasn't to be honest. I wanted to be able to surprise them with their backs turned while getting into handgun range. I really should have grabbed the rifle, but they were awfully close to my house, I would have had to run around back, open it, unzip the bag, load it, sure it wouldn't have taken long but in my head I didn't have any time to spare. I'm just thankful this was all a false alarm and no one got hurt.

[Antipitas]

This is better suited to Tactics & Training, than General Discussions.

Off we go....

[Dave85]

Just a suggestion for the future, since you don't have cell coverage at your house: it might be useful to carry a good walkie-talkie with you, and make sure your girlfriend keeps one on her at all times. As remote as your location is, you might even want to get something with a base station. I doubt you will have a situation exactly like this arise again, but it certainly does illustrate the value of good communication.

[jrothWA]

that "Gen Disc" is a good spot, to get our attention and thinking going.

The poster appears to handled it, to a successful conclusion but now needs positive feedback. Sound like the communication area is prime concern.

Secondary area is the GF and what are her options???

Please let this ride here, (unless get way out of hand)

JHR

[Ruthless4christ]

can you geta sat phone? at least for emergancies?

[Dwight55]

Because of the setup and details of my property, . . . this same scenario could have played out at my place.

Without cell phone service, . . . I would have simply driven past my house as though I were a neighbor, . . . then parked, . . . gotten out, . . . and slipped through the bushes, and tree line into the house. Reason? My AR is in the house, . . .

As stated by creature, . . . get the LEO's on the way first if it is possible. Another reason for getting into the house first.

Once inside, . . . I would have prepared for the battle, . . . but not initiated anything. I would also have gotten my binoculars and tried to ID them, . . . as well as my camera and taken pictures of them.

Four guys with rifles against myself and my wife are bad odds, . . . and I give you kudos for all turning out OK, . . . but I certainly would have done some heavy thinking before confronting 4 rifle toters with a handgun. And I absolutely would not have confronted them without being behind some kind of cover. Not being sarcastic or mean spirited, . . . but that is the kind of action that gets chronicled on headstones. Find some cover, . . . or at least concealment before initiating the confrontation.

May God bless,
Dwight

[tplumeri]

interesting scenario.
i live out in the country as well and have thought about similar "encounters".
my solution was to put a gun safe in the shop in the barn. I dont keep anything valuable in it (worried about humidity etc), an old AR and a 30-30 lever, a bunch of mags and ammo.
never had to exercise that option, but it makes me feel good to know i can.:)

[ThePBM]

I would definitely get a portable phone that you can use out there. At the very least a car phone. Remember those? lol

[Creature]

I would start shopping for a communications company and offer up a portion of my land to lease as a site for a cell tower.

[pax]

Creature ~

It costs around $200 to purchase a cell phone repeating station to install in your home, and for some rural folks, it is money well spent. However, it really only works if your area has spotty reception rather than none at all. In cases where you have no coverage at all, you're SOL.

Important: even someone with otherwise good coverage can have the cell phone crap out for some other reason (battery died? phone died? tower's out?). For this reason, it's really necessary to have back up plans that do not rely on technology, even in situations where relying on technology might be your first choice.

pax

[Socrates]

Why isn't the AR loaded and ready to go?

One of my worst nightmares is someone breaking into my house, and, due to not having either a gun in reach, or a gun loaded, I go down.

I figure ST. Peter might reject me on the grounds stupid and Heaven don't mix.;):D

[DMacLeod]

Tough situation, glad everything turned out ok. Seeing that your vehicle is an H1, I would have driven towards them. The sounds of the vehicle barreling over the yard could have alerted your fiance of possible trouble. As others have stated it also offers cover.

If their weapons had been cased you probably would have read the situation much differently. ie; friendlies instead of foes.

[Double Naught Spy]

Just curious, how many of you would have shot first?

Why would there have been ANY reason to shoot first? Nothing you described indicated the guys were doing anything with mal-intent. They were simply armed and by your house. Yes, that might be bothersome, but they did not try to gain entry or act like they wanted entry.

When you first saw them, they were walking around behind your house. You then had to park in a hidden location and sprint the 100 yards to catch up. I don't know how big your house is, but by the time you did all that, those guys had to be well on their way away from your house.

So when you finally engaged these four guys, the perceived threat was already moving away from you and your home. As such, not only did you engage 4 more heavily armed guys whilst out in the open, with no cover for yourself, from too close, and only with a handgun, it sounds like you did so needlessly.

I can't imagine that anybody in that situation would have shot first.

Why isn't the AR loaded and ready to go?

One of my worst nightmares is someone breaking into my house, and, due to not having either a gun in reach, or a gun loaded, I go down.

I think the AR probably isn't loaded and ready to go because he doesn't sleep in his car or keep his car in his house when he sleeps.

[kgpcr]

Shoot first?? Thats just plain paranoid!! Shoot inocent people first and ask questions later??

[Larry $]

Never assume, always confirm.

[fierocdsp]

The walkie-talkie (usually FRS,etc) idea is good, but I'll go a step better. CB Radios. A home base-station is easy enough to purchase, and many are simply a mobile unit on a power converter, so it wouldn't be too hard to be able to adapt it to a car battery during a power-outage.

Get a mobile unit for each car. In most areas there is an emergency channel on 9 or 19 that is monitored by at least a Sheriff's office. The only down-side is limited capability without a large (102in) antenna. The range on a proper setup, however, is considerable.

[Striker071]

OK first of all the main problem is in my opinion - Why didnt you think this could happen? Mind sets are the most important thing in a stress situation. I know the first thing you thought of was four heavily armed guys headed for my girlfriend who is physically challenged. At that point in time you didnt process the situation because you already had a preconcieved notion on what was occuring. You left your best Defense/Offense in the H1. The G21 is a very capable weapon and if you have your own range I am sure you fire it well. The last thing I would want to do is go up against guys with rifles with a pistol. You also have to identify a real threat. So NO shooting first and asking questions later isnt an option. I know if you take the time to identify the threat you may be behind the 8 ball when engaging it.. well again you have to engage your brain. You got lucky because the guys were just there to shoot up some paper or watermellons... or frozen milk jugs and you surprised them.... (did any of them need a towel to clean themselves afterwards?). We all dont know what we would do in a situation like this.... but if we think that situations like this could really happen then we may have a simple and direct plan to deal with it and be on top when we do.

[fivepaknh]

Why isn't the AR loaded and ready to go?

In NH it's illegal to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle. It's probably illegal in many states.

[Lee Lapin]

There's an old saying out in the country- "Good fences make good neighbors." Multistrand high tensile electric fence on steel T-posts with wood post corner structures is among the least expensive fencing to install, and people are pretty reluctant to mess with an electric fence with a good charger at work and a good grounding system (ground rod at every corner, minimum). Steel pipe farm gates with short sections of chain and padlocks complete the ensemble. The major fencing manufacturers offer DIY guides ( http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WcmDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10551&catalogId=10001&contentName=/tractorsupply/knowhow/agriculture/agriculture_install_a_high_tensile_fence )- if I can do it, anyone can. And yes, it IS work, as a matter of fact.

With fences and gates, no one who doesn't have a key gets close to the house, or anywhere else on the property. And anyone who DOES show up has breached an obvious barrier in some way or another, which might just be an indicator of their intentions. A couple of territorial farm dogs inside the fence will usually discourage most of those sorts, too.

And if you think you don't need fences/gates/dogs now, I would bet that within a few years, you will wish you had them.

Something else to think about,

lpl

[Fremmer]

Just curious, how many of you would have shot first?

None of us would have shot first. If someone disagrees, please tell me what would justify just shooting first.

In the end I invited them in my house, apologized if I scared them but let them know how close they came to dying (that was me being cocky).

Don't get cocky. Some guys are not just going to drop their guns; they could have immediately started running in 4 different directions, obtained cover, and started shooting at you. And you might have come really close to dying.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not sure how I would have handled the situation, but I think you (and the 4 other guys) got really lucky that someone didn't get shot over a simple misunderstanding. And gettin' lucky is nothing to be cocky about. JMHO.

[Big Yac]

You're very lucky nobody got shot, not because you confronted four men armed with rifles, while you yourself only had a pistol, but because of your getting cocky to give your ego a boost. I just dont understand why you needed to be cocky. These people were not uninvited, your wife gave permission infact. Could you have kept a pair of binoculars in the car and tried to identify the threat from afar before jumping straight into chairborne comando mode? I bet if the little old lady next door came over to borrow a cup of milk youd hold her at gun point while having the dogs smell her for explosives just incase she had some nefarious intentions. I'm sure youd remind her of how close she came to dying too...just you being cocky though.
Really people we're getting alittle too castle doctrine happy and that is exactly what the antis see...ccw toting people who constantly need to boost their ego by letting everyone know that since they carry they are all of a sudden robocop.
Yes I ccw but it doesnt come out unless its absolutely necessary and then, only then will it come out. I also wouldnt come on here bragging about how I confronted 3 battalions of men with only my slingshot and samuri sword.

[Bogie]

Guys, guns do not fix all problems.

In this case, someone had inadequate intel, and rather than perform a recon, and gather intel, he chose instead to essentially do a headlong frontal assault.

Personally, I'd have bailed from the vehicle, loaded the long gun, gotten back IN the vehicle, and driven toward them, honking a time or two.

Several things could happen:

They could run. That's fine. You're probably in a catch & release state.

They could freeze. Also fine.

They could turn and wave.

If they start shooting, well, get thee behind the engine block, and return fire from cover.

And I don't know how fast YOU are, but an H1 can whup my butt in the 100 yard dash.

[wildturkey76209]

Somebody please tell me again how it is one quotes somebody that has already posted. FAQ is not very helpful...

[Para Bellum]

You did well. Nobody got hurt and if they had been BGs you would have had a good chance to save you beloved one.

I almost ended up in a gun battle with 4 armed young men in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no cover armed with a glock 21.
I kind of disagree. You were far from a gun battle. And at 20yds with a Glock 21 you stand a good chance anyway. But take your AR next time (geeeeezzz).

Instead of getting out of the car I'd do what I had seen the Italian Police in a raid of a square once. They speeded towards the square in 4 cars from 4 sides. Some 100yds from their target they opened the doors and shut off the engines. So they approached their targets at some 50miles/h silently and got them fully by surprise...

Ever considered a pair of dogs around such a remote house?
If you had seen your dogs calm and easy you could have been sure there was no aggression involved. So a pair of good dogs and a field-glass would have saved you a lot of stress.

It's a pitty you don't live in my neighborhood.

[ws6_keith]

No one was injured, so you did well ENOUGH in this situation. Obviously, there are things that could have been done better - and if there is a next time, you will.

On the comms though, you need to look into a satellite base-station setup. You can get so many hours per year, on a year contract with a sat phone company and install a receiver dish on the roof. Then, plug your standard wall or portable phones into it, so you have service. You NEED the ability to call out - and in this case, to call IN (call your other half and find out).

[no one]

The most interesting thing about this posting is that the person who made the initial post is being "second guessed" and criticized quite a bit. As I thought about that for the last couple of days, it occurred to me that he now knows what people in law enforcement feel like on a daily basis. I think the realization of how law enforcement officers feel is a real wake up for most people. Only the posters are not risking their pension, lifes earnings, and indictment via postings as the law enforcement officer does with every contact.

[Rager]

Okay I used to remember how to do this....
Somebody please tell me again how it is one quotes somebody that has already posted. FAQ is not very helpful...
__________________
Sure animals got rights. They got the right to butter and garlic. -Ted Nugent Cut and paste whatever text you want to quote, tick the "post reply" button, then Ctrl+V after ticking the 3rd from the right- bottom row icon.

To Casey- you sound a little bit paranoid. I wouldn't have come to the conclusion you did. That's your business not mine. Otherwise consider some sort of external alarm/ roof mounted strobe/ light that your SO can use to declare an emergency. Even to other neighbors in the event of a medical emergency.


On a side note, one of my brothers just got his CCW. I've asked him several times about how much he practices, and he just mumbles. I'm concerned that he thinks he can just "whip it out" and somehow be in control of a dangerous situation. I've tried to have him realize that if he doesn't read a situation properly the weapon means nothing.

[vytoland]

you got real lucky, all it would have taken is one startled rifeman and an ugly result.

if cell phones are not available, would a pair of 2 way radio walkie talkie work for you?

[FSJeeper]

Thats a tough one. I agree about driving up on them fast being ready to use the H1 as cover. That way you would immediately know what their intentions are and divert attention from them going to the house where your fiance was.

I had a situation a few years ago at my ranch. I only go there on weekends and was driving through the gate on a Friday evening and I noticed a man with a rifle about 100 yards behind my house on the treeline. I watched him for a little while and my gut told me he was not a threat and not doing anything threatening. I accelerated past the house and drove up to him about 50 feet away. All I had in the truck was a shotgun with buckshot. He laid his rifle down and put his hands up. When I walked up to him with the shotgun I found a very scared hispanic young man that did not speak much English. Turns out he worked for my neighbor and the neighbor let him deer hunt that afternoon. He had gut shot a doe and it ran onto my property. He was just looking for it in the brush.

I helped him find it, gut it, and loaded it up and took him back over to the neighbors a few miles away.

Talking about it later with friends, almost all of them said why didn't you call the police and wait? Why expose yourself when it is not necessary? I have to admit, the thought did not cross my mind to call the police and I definitely get cell phone service, there was no one out there to protect, and the police could have been out there in 30 minutes or so. Someone was on my property, I had several expensive thefts of tools and equipment before that and I was ******. I was not using my head at all. I hope I have learned the lesson.

[NWPilgrim]

I am not going to advise or critique the stated situation and reaction but just offer a couple more things to consider. You came out OK so you did good. I can understand instinctual imperative to do something NOW if you feel your wife may be under extreme danger.

1) IF they had been BGs there could have been a couple more inside with your wife while four stayed outside on guard. That would really complicate things.

2) Being invited guests they may have thought YOU were the bad guy for sneaking up behind them, or worse barreling into the drive in full assault mode.

I think getting behind them was a good choice but did/could you identify yourself as the property owner without giving up too much advantage?

I like the ideas of CB or FRS radios since your wife has limited mobility. And the dogs! Man's best friend for a reason.