Clearing a house with a pistol/flashlight

[GetYerShells]

Just out of curiousity how many of you keep a gun light attached to your pistols' rail? I used to, but then I thought "if I have to clear my house...and I have a light right on the tip of my gun and the BG has a gun and he see's that light he basically has to shoot at the light and has a good chance of taking off my head." Think about it, if that light is on the tip of your pistol and you have your gun at eye level and a BG shoots at that light, where is that bullet going to go? Now, I use a Surefire in my offhand with my pistol in my mainhand. I keep a good three ft. of space between the two. What type of setup/combo do you all use? If any?

[Dwight55]

One, . . . I would never have my light on the end of my weapon, . . . I use a stance similar to the one Tom Sellick used in the show, "Stone Undercover" or whatever it was (couple years ago on television).

With your left arm as he had his, . . . shots aimed at the light should pass to your right, . . . allowing you to concentrate and return fire to the muzzle flash you see.

Two, . . . if a house needs cleared, . . . my county sheriff sends folks equipped, trained, and tricked out to do just that, . . . one person clearing a house is a simple recipe for a funeral, . . . his.

Our master bedroom is our retreat, . . . I have no compelling need to leave there if I suspect bg's in the other part(s) of the house.

May God bless,
Dwight

[GetYerShells]

If there are BG's in my house I don't think that I want to give them the luxury of 15-20 mins (police response time) to have a blue light special with my possesions. Not to mention If someone has forcefully entered my house..as far as I am concerned my family's safety is now at risk. I am not going to wait for them to come to me.

[Dwight55]

You are absolutely correct in what you have said, . . . but do this.

Get a young person (not one who knows the house), . . . offer him $20 to help you learn how to "clear" your house,

Give him a few minutes to "case the place" then arm yourselves with squirt guns, . . . tell him to go hide and try to "shoot" you without getting shot himself. If the kid has any moxy, . . . you will lose 19 out of 20 times. There are just simply too many places the bg can hide and see you, . . . yet you will not know he is there until you are bleeding.

Yes, . . . safety for your family is why you are there, . . . no argument. There must be some compromise in your own personal safety and your providing safety for mom & the kids, . . . but you getting shot does not help them at all. And all the "stuff" that the bg's can haul off in the 20 minutes it takes for LEO's to arrive are not worth you taking a bullet, . . . or worse, . . . or one of the kids or momma taking a bullet from a wild shot out of one of the firearms going off in the house.

Seriously, . . . I'm not slamming our picking on you, . . . but I really do think you can devise a better plan for protecting your family than trying to clear your house by yourself. Ask any LEO you can find what two things scare them the worst, . . . "domestic disturbance" will be high on their list as well as "live house clearings", . . . and they do both as teams of 2 to 10, . . . never alone.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Keltyke]

Although I have a flashlight close by, I won't "clear my house." I'm not trained in it. Think about what you're talking about. Hunting a BG in the dark. He knows where he is and can remain silent. You have to come to him. You don't know where he is, so you have to move around and make noise, so he'll know exactly where you are. Just think what a nice target that flashlight makes. As a couple others have pointed out...BANG, you're dead.

If I hear noises (my dogs will har them first) that are suspicious enough, I'll hit the panic button on the alarm. That's right outside the bedroom door. Not much danger there. My wife and I will then bunker in the bedroom with the only approach (the hall) covered, and wait for the cops. Anything I have can be replaced. Our lives can't be, and that's the final goal - STAY ALIVE.

[hogdogs]

Dwight, I disagree. I know my home better than anyone else. I would clear with my shotgun and no lights. I am not just walkin' around willy nilly. I am relying on my hearing more than line of sight. Hearing is a sense that "sees" around corners without giving away my position. The BG shouldn't know I am there or armed until he is actually confronted and at that point he is at a distinct disadvantage.
I also cannot await the cops and their response time in a time of crisis in MY home.
Brent

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Decide this as Gerald states well:

Possessions vs. Physical Harm

or is the ever popular posturing to show you are top dog.

Aren't so many of these threads about the latter?

[hogdogs]

Glenn, It is not about possessions for me. I have so very little of monetary value in my house. It is impossible for me to replace them but that is not the reason for me to have my mentality. For me it all about someone being in my "zone" for lack of a better description.
I also realize that no one invading my home has my well being on their mind. Once they are done in my living room and kitchen and are still empty handed they have 2 options... to leave empty handed or bedrooms that have my 2 kids or the master bedroom.
Just can't let myself sit back to let them decide on which bedroom to invade.
Brent

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Brent - you already said that you would take a shotgun blast to the chest rather than hand over your wallet if someone truly had the drop on you.

About a year or two ago, I did an exercise where we were in a bedroom with a pump gun. We heard burglars. Those who went to clear were 'killed'.

As I have said, ad nauseum, decide your goal - minimize death or act for ego against what we know about 'clearing'.

Back to the OP - if you wander around with a 'on' flashlight, I don't carry if you hold it to the side or above your head - it is simple to figure out where you are and shoot you. Done this in an exercise with people who were 'clearing'.

[scoutleader]

I our safe room we have a corded phone and a prepaid cell phone in case the phone line is out. We can get to the room by the master bedroom and my daughters room without getting into the hallway. Once in side the police will have to call me to get me to come out. The bad guy can take what he wants as long as we are ok. You can buy more stuff not a life.

[KLRANGL]

I would only clear a house as a last resort (ie family members downstairs at my parents house). Besides, my roommates at school are heavily armed and can take care of themselves. No sense putting myself out there for a possible blue on blue situation.

If you really wana go room clearing with a flashlight, I suggest getting a Blackhawk Gladius and using the strobe function. The disorienting effect has gotten my out of a few sticky situations in our CQB airsoft "battles." Thats about as close as ive come to force on force training...

[Mannlicher]

I am not going to be clearning any houses. There are way too many things that go wrong, and go wrong FAST.

[Shawn Dodson]

Why are you "clearing" your house? What is your objective? Do you have family members in a remote location that you need to reach? What is the cost vs. benefit of "clearing"?

Ever hear of using a verbal challenge?

WHO'S THERE?!
I HAVE A GUN!
I'VE CALLED POLICE!
GET OUT NOW OR I'LL SHOOT!!!


That *should* take care of most nightime burglary situations you find yourself in.

If you have to exit your safe room, you don't use the light to "search." You use the light simply to identify the threat before you shoot.

You don't have to point your gun directly at the threat to illuminate it, you splash light off the ceiling, floor or wall.

I'm also equipped with a hand carry Surefire, which if my gun mounted light fails and I need to shoot the target, then I retract it to my center neck as I bring the gun up to fire from a one-handed SUL type carry, either extending my firing arm or bringing it back to fire from a retention position.

Cheers!

[SWMAGMAN]

My number 1 problem with a weapon-mounted light is the obvious - when you find out it is your teenage son (or any other innocent) trying to sneak in (who hasn't) late, you'll find that when you made the ID you had your weapon trained directly on him...like using a riflescope to identify a target (instead of binoculars). Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot!

[Bogie]

To properly clean a room, you need to first toss in a grenade.

Or...

Call the police, and wait, while shooting anything that emerges from the room.

[fivepaknh]

The kids are in a different part of the house. Getting to them is priority. Though I do agree a verbal challenge and an announcement of a gun and cops on the way should fix most problems.

[mkg]

I have a two story split plan home a 17 year old and an attached Mother-in-law suite ( complete with mother and father-in-law ) so barracading in the master isn't going to work.
Personally , I feel that a dog is great first deterent.

First, it's much easier for the BG to go to a house that has no dog should your home have been "cased" by a BG
Second, My dogs bark at anything out of the ordinary...ie me with a hat or sunglasses on. If a BG hears a dog barking he's going to know you've been alerted . Plus the BG dosen't want to get bit.
Third, Should the BG persist in entering the house I know that he is there for a purpose. Not a random act. I also have a big clue as to his mentality and what he prepared to do, at that point I have a real good idea what is going ot happen . Yes, I have a 17 year old that on occation misses curfew. If she comes home late the dog barks BUT the next thing I hear is " MOLLY sshhhh!"

I Know a dog is not an option for everyone ( allergies, apartments etc .. ) but if it is, it is one that you should think about.

Mike

[Threefeathers]

One of the things that Mas Ayoob drilled into us is home defense. It is basically, get your family to a safe room, stay put, call the police and give them a constant rundown.
Do NOT try to clear the house yourself, you will walk into an ambush. Once you are dead so is your family.
If you take the house drill at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch you'll see that the lone homeowner trying to clear the house never lives. But the homeowner who makes the BG come to him nearly always lives.

Once you phone the police the BG must make quick decisions, make them do it, not you.

[New_Pollution1086]

When I buy a house I plan on setting up a switch inside my bedroom that turns every light on in the house, then comes the verbal announcement.

the surprise of the lights as well as the verbal and the always useful shotgun rack:D should help to disorient him.

T

[M1911]

My number 1 problem with a weapon-mounted light is the obvious - when you find out it is your teenage son (or any other innocent) trying to sneak in (who hasn't) late, you'll find that when you made the ID you had your weapon trained directly on himCritics of weapon-mounted lights always say this. But you don't have to use the light that way.

Surefires are bright enough that you don't have to have your gun with mounted light pointed directly at a perp to ID him. Low ready will bounce more than enough light off the floor to light up all but the largest rooms. High ready will bounce more than enough light off the ceiling to light up all the but the largest rooms. And that way you can have the phone on your support hand.

The main downside that I see weapon-mounted lights is the cost. Those weapon-mounted surefires sure are pricey.

If you can do it at your range, turn out the lights and practice firing your pistol while holding your flashlight. There are quite a few different flashlight techniques. For me, a modified Harries works the best. YMMV.

For those that suggest using the old FBI method (support hand holds the light off to the side or up high), I suggest that you actually try shooting this way, particularly from a barricade. Setup a short IDPA/IPSC stage and have someone time and score you. I think you'll find a couple things: 1) low-light shooting is hard, 2) low-light shooting using the FBI method is really hard.

Finally, I'm with the hide in the safe room folks.

[rogertc1]

A good dog over 50 lbs is the best detterent for crooks trying to burglarize and the pup could be your best friend too.

[The Canuck]

Okay, off the top. I have been trained to clear houses. Will I do it without at least three buddies who are good at it? Oh heck no. Will I do it solo if I can get away with not doing it? Absolutely not.

When you go room-room in a clearing exercise you are entering into an aggressor/defender situation. Sure its your home, but when you are going room to room you are the one who is aggressing. You are moving and making noise all the while the person you are trying to clear out will most likely stay static and listen and watch. When he sees you in the poor light, he will be better able to engage you before you will see and engage him. Ask any LEO how they feel about house clearing. These guys, who have the gear and the buddies will tell you one thing. "IT SUCKS".

If you can help it, do not clear the place, get to a safe room (panic room, whatever) and secure it. Then you become the defender and they become the aggressor, moving around and making noise and setting themselves up for the fall... then call the law and hold 'em of until help arrives.

[Slopemeno]

Lets see...youre going to clear your house because you think someones there, but youre not going to be having your gun pointed where youre looking? Really?

And again, a weapon light isn't an either-or question. There's no reason why you cant have a light in one hand and your gun in the other. The sudden bright light in the badguys eyes, with one hand free to manipulate doorknobs, switches, and phones is just a better way to go.

If you think someone is there- call 911. Cover the "fatal-funnel" to seperate you from them. Sit tight.

[mavracer]

A good dog over 50 lbs is the best detterent for crooks trying to burglarize and the pup could be your best friend too.
or in my case 4;)

[Nnobby45]

Just out of curiousity how many of you keep a gun light attached to your pistols' rail? I used to, but then I thought "if I have to clear my house...and I have a light right on the tip of my gun and the BG has a gun and he see's that light he basically has to shoot at the light and has a good chance of taking off

The purpose of a light is not to navigate your way along during house clearing--or any other time.

It's to illuminate the target an INSTANT BEFORE you make the decision to shoot. Such a light can be shined at the floor or bounced off the ceiling in order to determine if you're dealing with friend or foe so you won't end up pointing a gun at one of your kids, or Uncle Harry raiding the refridgerator. A room, or hallway, can be illuminated in this manner with enough light to check things out--from behind cover.

The light can be used in a number of different ways, but house clearing with the light turned on isn't one of them. And of course, it can be used to shine in the eyes of a known hostile target so you can see your sights. Boy can you see your sights:D!



This is basic stuff, I don't claim to be an expert. I'd recommend a video on the subject, like the one Clint Smith puts out, and hands on training as well.

I'd also recommend his tape on house clearing, which he doesn't advocate doing. Perhaps, the main value of the tape is to impress upon you the extreme danger involved, but it has great info in case you abosolutely have to.

My only light, at least at this point, is on my 870 for the purpose of positive ID before using deadly force.

[Bogie]

Like I said - Let Mr. Grenade go in first. Tends to be a little rough on the furniture, but hey...

[OldMarksman]

Originally posted by The Canuck: If you can help it, do not clear the place, get to a safe room (panic room, whatever) and secure it. Then you become the defender and they become the aggressor, moving around and making noise and setting themselves up for the fall... then call the law and hold 'em of until help arrives.

That's consistent with everything I've read and with what has been presented on Personal Defense TV.

My CCW instructor advised, "let the threat come to you."

[bufordtjustice]

I agree that you are better to stay in your safe haven, call the cops and wait it out. That is almost always a sound tactical decision...but...

Sometimes a "safe place" is not where you or all your family members are are when an incident happens. To get to a safe place, you have to clear on the move, to make and hold a safe place, it has to be cleared.

Depending on the weapon, I either use a mounted light or a surefire with a lanyard. The way our house is situated right now, our infant is not near the master bedroom. I am planning on moving soon and rectifying this situation but this can't be fixed right now. The dog idea is also really solid. I will be adding one of those soon as well.

I have had hundreds of hours of training in CQB, low light, flashlight use, blah, blah, blah. It is most certainly a terrible, terrible idea to try and clear a structure by yourself...but for some of us...mostly those with poorly laid out homes, it will have to be done.

I stick to the axiom: "When in the dark, stay in the dark. When in the light, light up the dark." Lights should be used sparingly. As another poster stated, the power of modern flashlights is strong enough to illuminate most household rooms while the weapon is kept at low ready, etc.

Speed is also an important factor. If you need get somewhere, do it fast. While I am not advocating a mad dash, you don't need to be sneaking around on tip toes. Another valuable axiom is "To gain something, you have to give up something." To gain a room, you have just given up the room you left. You are almost always going to be vulnerable from at least one direction since you can't cover 360 deg. very effectively.

I personally believe that in some situations, such as mine, lots of noise is also a good idea. Verbal commands, comments about police, etc. Anything that I can do to put them on the defensive is a good idea. If you can distract them, even for a few seconds, that is a few seconds they aren't able to put together a plan of attack. It takes me around 6 seconds to get from the master bedroom to our daughter's room. The bad guy "knows" one of three things. 1) We are home and he doesn't care anyway. 2) We are not home and I just gave him a heads up that maybe he made a poor choice. 3) He is high, intoxicated or an EDP who, to one degree or another, is operating in a diminished capacity. In all three instances, by giving loud, clear verbal commands, I am going to buy some precious time.

In regards to flashlights, there are about a billion and one thoughts on how to use them. If you have mastered A style, try the others for familiarization but stick to what you are good at. The FBI used to teach a technique of holding the flashlight away from the body as described earlier. Most people seem to be using the Harry's (sp) or Chapman. For what it is worth, most night and low light shooting will show people with little or no training are prone to shooting high.

One tip that might also buy you some time is the closing of doors for unused rooms. In CQB you often find yourself flowing into the open room. If you routinely close doors to bathrooms, spare bedrooms, etc. BEFORE you go to bed, you will gain even more of an advantage. In my case, if a door is shut, I can bypass it quickly and get to my child's room. That doesn't mean a bad guy isn't in there, it means HE will have to fiddle with the door knob, place himself a a fatal funnel, etc, to move and not me. Every room I can close off like that helps me out that much more.

[ice9_us]

I Spoke with some Seals when i was in the NAVy long long ago...

They said in tranning.. they have an deal where they do something like this...

it is 4 or 5 of them and 1 guy in the place/room...

they said..... almost always he gets them first..

from that.. I used his info to build my plan should something like this happen...

Running to a safe place 1 room and keeping everyone in it...
they told me the often Loose... for a few reasons... all of which are your advantage if you are in 1 room...
you can use 2 rooms if you have 2 people with guns... as long as your aware of location and rules... so you don't nail each other..


Going to 1 room turns the tides should you have to shoot...
1.. you are aware of the location of everyone on the house... ( and have a good idea of the directions from which you will be attacked)

the person coming in the room.. has no idea where you are...
nor is he/she/it aware that you have a gun..

2. you can now use the power of scaring the CRAP out of anyone by flinging a few rounds throught the wall in the general direction of any noise coming to you.. From my understanding.. everyone runs when round fly by their head...

Just keep in mind.. when you send rounds through the walls.. you know what limits they have... and close ideas as to where they are going... u don't want to force your neighbor to loose a beer from your crazy aim...

shooting up towards the sky is ok... just the noise of the gun should make them run...


Keep in mind.. Bad guys are risk adverse... they hear a gun and can't see you.. it is not likely they will hang around..

[OldMarksman]

Originally posted by ice_9us: I Spoke with some Seals when i was in the NAVy long long ago...They said in tranning.. they have an deal where they do something like this...

Keep in mind that the SEALS have an entirely different objective. Theirs is to search and destroy. Yours is to save you and yours from imminent grave harm in an emergency, and if you are in a castle doctrine state and someone breaks in you can generally presume that the fact of a break-in has put you in imminent danger. Check you state laws regarding any obligation you may have to retreat.

you can now use the power of scaring the CRAP out of anyone by flinging a few rounds throught the wall in the general direction of any noise coming to you.....shooting up towards the sky is ok... just the noise of the gun should make them run...

Careful--firing a warning shot is illegal in a lot of jurisdictions.

Keep in mind.. Bad guys are risk adverse... they hear a gun and can't see you.. it is not likely they will hang around..

You may want to talk to an LEO who has dealt with meth addicts before relying on that conclusion.

[Keltyke]

you can now use the power of scaring the CRAP out of anyone by flinging a few rounds throught the wall in the general direction of any noise coming to you.....shooting up towards the sky is ok... just the noise of the gun should make them run...

That's the most STUPID thing I've ever heard in TFL. Firing shots into the air? Through walls? In the general direction?

Can you say, "reckless endangerment?"

The only, ONLY, I repeat, ONLY time you pull the trigger is to save a life. You shouldn't be allowed to even HAVE a gun. You scare me.

[andrewskaggs]

Careful--firing a warning shot is illegal in a lot of jurisdictions.

In addition to the fact that you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your weapon. Projectiles returning to Earth can be quite deadly.

[ice9_us]

I get your points..
my point is.. I would rather not have anyone get near me..




From what i have learned and was told, If your not ready to fire.. and the guy is a few feet from ya.. you have a problem( I forget the stats, i will find them)...the space will depend on a few things.. but I think the stats are 5-8 feet is for the avg person.. Guys are "over all" risk adverse so a small show of force is most likely gonig to help you get out of a bad bad situation... The type of chriminal we deal with will most likely be area dependent.. so my actions will be different that others...

IE .. stay quiet because they may have a gun to..

My post was an in general... I am just posting what i have been told by police officers and spec war guys i have known from the military... how good are they with their "Thinking" is to anyones opinion/guess.. i really have no idea... just posting what they have said..

And the guys I had known in the NAVY which were/are some of the best..... have said..

No matter the thinking anyone has about how to do things..

if you see the guy and your not ready to shoot. u most likely won't get your gun drawn before your in a fight.. knifed or whatever.. If you do.. your lucky, good, or loved a lot more than the other guy by God.

So at all cost.. keep the distance...

and as to me and danger I am not sure.. mabye.. My rules are made by the guys I have know who do this stuff for a living..

Now.. please keep in mind... I don't mean just shoot at anything at random.. that wasn't my meaning... sorry if people took it that way.. I was trying to make the point/I have been told by everyone to do SOMETHNG that shows force and it will more often than NOT resolve your situation..

you guys can clear rooms all you want.. I am doing what was suggested by some very good guys.. sitting my @$$ still, hidden, and shooting anything that comes near me with out introducing themselvs... while i wait for the police to show up...


My goal is to control the situation, not have it controlled for me.. Unless you train heavily and by a PRO.. your not in at advantage clearing rooms... and will likely get killed should the guy be looking out for you.. God help ya if there is more than one..


Since i don't train like that... My goal is to keep guys at a distance from myself and my family.. till the police show up..


-- As to the law --
In Georgia the law has changed.. if your life is threatened your allowed to ask questions later…(there are more details to the law, but that is the base of the whole deal, and from what i have seen.. it is treated that way..) The Crime in my area was BAD BAD BAD and getting worse. That small town(atlanta, Dekalb, conyers, stonemountain area) was starting to see drive by shootings.. and in Conyers of all places..:mad:.. BUT since that law has passed many moons ago it has cleared up a ton.. People still break in homes, but not NEAR what it was.. and I have not read anything in the paper about Arrest of people who were protecting themselvs.. so BOO!! to the NAY sayers of that Law which i think was taken after the law that was passed in flordia not to long ago..

I spoke with a Dekalb officer who said he didn't think the new law was fair..
If i shoot someone, it is ok.. if he does.. It is a big deal. tons of papers, and likely his job :( I still don't understand how that works...

[Keltyke]

my point is.. I would rather not have anyone get near me..

Don't worry, I wouldn't get within a mile of you.

Now, what you really need to do is stop talking to your SEAL buddies and cop friends and stop reading about SPECOPS in paperbacks and start reading some gun law for your state and taking some gun safety/handling courses. A CWP course wouldn't be bad either.

Seals, army personnel, and cops are VERY different from private citizens: in their role, their training, their duty, their purpose. Start reading guys like Masaad Ayoob and others who are legends in the PD world.

[Creature]

I keep a flashlight next to my nightstand gun. I have trained to use a flashlight to clear spaces. Make no mistake...space clearing using flashlights even done as a group effort is no fun. Usually (if not always), the point man and sometimes the second guy through the door gets it. It is why doorways are known as "the funnel of death". It is why I will not use a flashlight to clear my home. But I will keep a flashlight on my person and handy.

As for clearing my home, I will not call the police and "bunker down" for every single bump in the night. There have been numerous times where I have ventured out of the bedroom, gun in hand, to ensure that all is indeed well. That is not to say that I will investigate every noise...especially when I am fairly certain that the source of the noise is a home invader.

I consider any person who is inside my home that my family or I am occupying, whether it is for burglary or other reasons, and who is uninvited, to be a home invader.

I have thought long and hard about what I am prepared to do in the event of a home invasion and the possible consequences of action...or inaction. I have come to the decision that home invaders who do not instantly give up will be shot on sight, no warning and no questions asked. And where in the house that happens will depend solely on my choosing.

Obviously, positive identification is paramount. Because my soon to be born child will be sleeping in a different room than my wife and me, I will obviously be forced to exit my room in order to collect her. All occupants in my home will be accounted before I go for batteries release on any targets. Yes, I will likely hunker down and wait for the cavalry to arrive, but in the mean time, I fully intend on making my bedroom doorway a virtual 'funnel of death' as best I can.

[OldMarksman]

Originally posted by Keltyke: Now, what you really need to do is stop talking to your SEAL buddies and cop friends and stop reading about SPECOPS in paperbacks and start reading some gun law for your state and taking some gun safety/handling courses. A CWP course wouldn't be bad either.

Seals, army personnel, and cops are VERY different from private citizens: in their role, their training, their duty, their purpose. Start reading guys like Masaad Ayoob and others who are legends in the PD world.


I couldn't agree more!

[OldMarksman]

Originally posted by Creature: As for clearing my home, I will not call the police and "bunker down" for every single bump in the night.

Good thinking. But if ominous noises recur....

There have been numerous times where I have ventured out of the bedroom, gun in hand, to ensure that all is indeed well.

Toward what end? That goes against the advice of most of the experts.

By the way, I used to do that too. Not anymore.

[Creature]

Toward what end? That goes against the advice of most of the experts.

Like I said, every bump in the night noise is not a home invader. I will always check "the noise", gun in hand (out of prudence), to ensure that the noise my wife or I heard wasn't the supply line to the ice-maker popping or an electrical socket catching fire, the water heater tank cracking open or whatever. I carry the gun in case I am wrong. But like I also said, if I am fairly certain that bump in the night is a home invader, I will call for the cavalry after I collect my family. Then and only then will I bunker down.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by ice_9us: I spoke with a Dekalb officer who said he didn't think the new law was fair..If i shoot someone, it is ok.

I suggest that you follow Keltyke's advice and learn something about the law from a qualified source.

According to my lay understanding, the substance of the amendment was to specify that you have no duty to retreat under certain circumstances involving defense of person, habitat, or other property. It also provides you with a strong measure of protection against civil suits.

You still have to have a "reasonable belief" that use of force is justified under the circumstances. You will undoubtedly not be the final arbiter of whether your belief met the "reasonable person' standard under the law.

And also according to my lay reading of the statutes, the responsibility still falls to you to mount an affirmative defense to substantiate that any homicide committed by you is legally justified. What that will involve will no doubt depend upon the circumstances.

Do not take any of the above as qualified legal advice--seek expert advice, and do not listen to anyone who tells you that "if you shoot someone it's ok."

[ice9_us]

Do not take any of the above as qualified legal advice--
seek expert advice, and do not listen to anyone who tells you that "if you shoot someone it's ok."
-----

I am not stupid.. And fully understand… As I Noted my post “The more details part“…
I am not suggesting it was said that it was ok to just shoot… I am saying.. If your in a serious situation and have “reasonable” fear for your life.. Your ok to defend yourself.. That officer, even when he is in the right.. Will get into some trouble.. For me it is a choice of defense, for him it is also politics.. And that, for him, isn’t fair..

----------------------------------------------------------------
In Georgia the law has changed.. if your life is threatened your allowed to ask questions later…
(there are more details to the law, but that is the base of the whole deal, and from what i have seen.. it is treated that way..)
---------------------------------------------------------------


I suggest that you follow Keltyke's advice and learn something about the law from a qualified source.
------
Absolutely.. I am ordering 2 books today.. One of which is teaching kids about guns.. I Know zero about donig that..…

Gunproof Your Children
& Handgun Primer
By Massad Ayoob


Look.. I think all this is a bit of a miss read that has gone a bit left of right… I was actually just agreeing with keltyke’s post about staying cool and out of the way… and pointing out that even PROs have issues with it(clearing rooms).. If a Guy who is as advanced as a SEAL who specializes in clearing rooms ( also backing keltykes statements…) .. Says…Unless you’re a PRO it isn’t a good idea… then it really isn’t a good idea.. It is best that you’re the one in the room since your at an advantage… it is best to follow exactly what keltyke’s saying..

I understand the statement about putting a bullet through the wall was misleading and over stated (but it turns out to be a very serious failure attempt at humor ).

I was thinking the following would help people understand I wasn’t serious:
---U don't want to force your neighbor to loose a beer from your crazy aim...


-- I think keltyke took it literal… --
That's the most STUPID thing I've ever heard in TFL. Firing shots into the air? Through walls? In the general direction?
--------------------------------------------

I am not at all saying that I am just going to unload at the first click of noise…. If that is how it was taken.. That is fine.. Either way.. I don’t care..

One thing for sure though...
Odd to have never hear of Massad Ayoob… I have a few generations of police in my family.. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! --
since I have to spell stuff out for people……
The HAHA is a nervous laugh at the value of experience of the guys I Know.. Who give advice. They travel to peoples homes for home Defense meetings, neighborhood watch.. Junk like that.. They are telling people to use a warning shot if there is someone in their home as a show of force if they simply are scared and feel they have to do something… Good/Bad/Right/Wrong.. I have no idea.. Which is why I post the nervous laugh.. I am thinking i have never heard of Massad because my family just doesn't talk about him... never had to...

[M1911]

They are telling people to use a warning shot if there is someone in their home as a show of force if they simply are scared and feel they have to do something… Good/Bad/Right/Wrong.. I have no idea..Warning shots are almost never a good idea.

You are responsible for the final resting place of each and every shot you fire. If you fire off a "warning shot" through the wall and it hits little Isabel in the house next door, you will likely be prosecuted for manslaughter. After that comes the civil suit.

By the way, your posts would be a lot easier to read if you used standard punctuation and learned to use the quote tags.

[lowracer]

My wife and I have a little box next to the bed with a button on it that says "All Lights On." Hear a bump, reach over press the button, and lights in every room of the house come on. Anyone breaking in with the intent of using cover of darkness to perpetrate their mayhem has now got a big bright wrench in their plan.

There are several technologies that can let you do this without running any wiring through the house.

X-10 is an old technology from the late 1970's that sends the "On" signal over your power lines, cheap and works great in most houses with modern electrical wiring, not so good in the really old houses with rat's nest wiring.

Z-Wave is a more modern technology that uses 900MHz radio signals to signal the lights to turn on, and will work great even in really old houses. Depending on how many rooms you want to light up, about a hundred / hundred fifty bucks and your house could be set up this way. Plug your lamp into a module a bit bigger than a pack of cigarettes, plug the module into the wall and you're pretty much set.

The bedside control usually includes a clock / timer that can turn lights on at different times (with a random offset as well to give the lived in look) so that when you go on vacation it looks like you're still there.

If you're worried about the BG cutting the power lines, just put your lamps on a small UPS (battery backup, available at office supply stores), and you'll still be able to light 'em up even when the lines are down.

Oh and once the lights are up we apply a little "behavior modification" via 12 ga pump.

[GetYerShells]

Before we shipped out to Iraq my unit did a lot of courses in tactical building entry. I do agree with everyone that training that we recieve is very different from the standard citizen just being concerned with his familys safety. They are not even remotely similar. When we go in there we have a totally different set of goals and objectives in mind. Now that I am home, I am basically trying to think of ways I can incorporate the training I recieved into a good home defense strategy.

[STAGE 2]

Seals, army personnel, and cops are VERY different from private citizens: in their role, their training, their duty, their purpose. Start reading guys like Masaad Ayoob and others who are legends in the PD world.

Why would you discount the advise of people who actually have real world experience in clearing rooms and replace it with the advise of someone who has none?

The bottom line is that no one knows what the situation is going to be so any statement that starts with "I'm always going to do X, Y and Z" doesn't understand the problem. If you have people elsewhere in the house, you are going to have to get to them. If its just you and another, you may be in separate rooms when the break in occurs.

If we all knew where, when and how home invasions were going to occur, life would be great. However we dont. Therefore as with most things, one size fits all solutions usually won't pass the test of real life.

[M1911]

Why would you discount the advise of people who actually have real world experience in clearing rooms and replace it with the advise of someone who has none?Are you saying that Ayoob has no experience clearing rooms? If so, that is simply untrue.

[heyduke]

Ayoob, after a couple of beers, he'll let you know how much he knows.

ALWAYS let the threat come to you.

Know your line of fire.

Call for backup and wait.

Lights/lasers let you see a target if you know where to look, however, it also lets the threat know where you are as well (unless you own some IR stuff that's really amazing).

The number one rule is self preservation.

Military training is NOT the same as civilian training. That's the problem with cops as well. SF want a bees.

[The Canuck]

They are telling people to use a warning shot if there is someone in their home as a show of force if they simply are scared and feel they have to do something… Good/Bad/Right/Wrong.. I have no idea..

Yeah, here's where we diverge greatly. In all of my instruction I have been trained that warning shots are to be aimed at COM and repeated until the threat is gone.

[nemoaz]

I Spoke with some Seals when i was in the NAVy long long ago...

They said in tranning.. they have an deal where they do something like this...

it is 4 or 5 of them and 1 guy in the place/room...Your "Seal" buddies must have failed. In the absence of special circumstances (IEDs, heavy fortification, or maybe surveillance so that they know the exact second you're entering) a team should not have much difficulty overcoming one person. Speed, violence of action, and proper tactics are the key.

With all due respect, sir, I would guess that the people you talked too were paper warriors.

[JoeFromSidney]

I've been through house clearing training (Tactical Defense Institute) and night-time use of flashlight. Two points.

First, I would not attempt clearing my own house, let alone one I was visiting, unless there were visitors at risk (normally only my wife and I are present). Going through a live-fire house shooting at bad-guy targets is one thing. Going through my own house risking getting shot by a bad guy is something else entirely. Assuming it's a night-time invasion, I'd stay in the bedroom, call 911, and shoot anyone who tries to get in. If it's during the day, I have guns located around the house. I'd get one, call 911, then let the bad guy come to me.

I think putting the flashlight on the gun is a very bad idea. It means you have to point the gun at whoever you're trying to ID. There are several techniques for holding a flashlight in one hand and your gun in the other. They're worth learning. At TDI we were taught to keep the flashlight off, then press the button and sweep it quickly around the room, let off the button, and MOVE. That way you get a glimpse of the room, but don't let the light become a target.

I have night lights in several rooms in the house. They give enough light that at night I can see fairly well, but I'm in the shadows. Give them a try.

[M1911]

I think putting the flashlight on the gun is a very bad idea. It means you have to point the gun at whoever you're trying to ID.!@$!#!@#!

No it DOES NOT! If you have done the type of training that you described, then you know that a quality defensive light like a Surefire can light up a room when being pointed at the ceiling or at the floor. You can easily get enough light to ID a person with the bounced light.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO POINT YOUR WEAPON-MOUNTED LIGHT DIRECTLY AT SOMEONE TO ID THEM!

[STAGE 2]

Are you saying that Ayoob has no experience clearing rooms? If so, that is simply untrue.

I can't imagine that a part time police officer in a small town would have much real world experience clearing rooms. Certianly not as much as someone who has swat/military experience.

[JohnKSa]

A general word of caution since several posters have mentioned Ayoob.

Mr. Ayoob is a member here and enjoys the same protection against personal attacks that every other TFL member does.

[omkhan]

IMO, warning shots are ok if u know where they r landing. e.g. here in PK we mostly have 6" thick concrete walls, it will take a half dozen of AK-47 rounds in the same place every time to punch a hole. With modern expanding bullets, chance of a ricochet is also negligible. yes i have fired my 9mm into the wall & it expanded into a 1" wide mushroom with little damage to the wall & a bounce out of 1' only. So properly aimed warning shot r a good thing & no, there wont be any legal issue since ur home was invaded. You could be even justified in killing the man in such scenario. I thwarted a home invasion by 3 BGs long time back but I guess I should post it as a separate thread some other time, however, luckily it didn't require a gun to do that.

[david_place_834]

Hey, if you hear someone in your house late at night, how about calling yourself with your cell phone to your hard line phone? Assuming you have an answering machine, you can pretend to be your own secuirty company.

"Mr. XXX. We have a silent alarm triggered. If you don't pick up the phone, we will dispatch a unit to your location immediately.""


You may not need to say anything. Who the heck calls late at night? I'm sure it would make the burglar reconsider for a split second

Of course, nothing beats a clear plan of action set in place for the most common contingencies before it happens. Whether armed with a defensive weapon or just cell, you are the first responder.

[M1911]

Hey, if you hear someone in your house late at night, how about calling yourself with your cell phone to your hard line phone? Assuming you have an answering machine, you can pretend to be your own secuirty company.

If you have time to place a call, the correct thing to do is to dial 911 and get the cavalry on the way.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Reminds me of a FOF, you find a bunch of guys in your living room and you light them up with your Surefire. You tell them to get on the floor - guess what - they don't speak English. One decides to take a leak on your couch. Another comes towards you, saying "Por Favor, Senor" with his hands up.

What to do?

[KLRANGL]

If you have time to place a call, the correct thing to do is to dial 911 and get the cavalry on the way.

If I called 911 every time I think there is someone in the house they might throw me in jail... :p Im convinced my house is haunted because I swear I hear people walking down my hallway, but there is never anyone there when I investigate (yes I know some of you are like: oh nos, sit tight, dont investigate... but whatever)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So who do you call - GHOSTBUSTERS!

Sorry - but if you constantly have to 'clear' your house with a gun because of noises - might rethink things.

[ZeSpectre]

Send out the DOGS!
Hunker down in the bedroom with the wife calling 911
Throw a bunch of matchbox cars and jacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacks) out in the hallway.

[barnetmill]

A light attached to a gun is a perfect aid if your opponent does not have a gun. I am thinking for four legged animals rather than the two legged kind. It blinds them and does make the eyes reflect offering a good target.

I agree one should not go and clear his or her's house from armed bandits. Stay put or if your are sure it is safe to do so, flee. If you are armed staying put is normally the better choice assuming that you are not being invaded by 500 gang members. It is always possible that your invader is a drunk that has lost his way and peeling a dead, bloodly, sticky, fouled bubba off your carpet is an experience that most can do without. Dying men defecate, urinate, get erections etc. and released bodily fluids can spread disease and require a biohazard cleanup. Best course is to sit tight and let the police resolve the issue when possible.

[OldMarksman]

From Glenn E. Meyer: Sorry - but if you constantly have to 'clear' your house with a gun because of noises - might rethink things.

That's great!:D

From barnettmill: I agree one should not go and clear his or her's house from armed bandits. Stay put or if your are sure it is safe to do so, flee. If you are armed staying put is normally the better choice assuming that you are not being invaded by 500 gang members. It is always possible that your invader is a drunk that has lost his way and peeling a dead, bloodly, sticky, fouled bubba off your carpet is an experience that most can do without. ...released bodily fluids can spread disease and require a biohazard cleanup. Best course is to sit tight and let the police resolve the issue when possible.

I agree with that advice (if I were upstairs, fleeing would not be an option, even though in my neighborhood it would otherwise be safe to do so).

I had never thought much about dealing with a body...food for thought, if you'll pardon the expression... :eek::mad:

[cnutco]

lowracer,

Thanks for the info. My kid's room is on the otherside of the house and if my wife's 8lb dog's bark does not scare them off then hopefully the lights coming on will.

Yes, I have guns and CCW, but do not look forward to the situation where I have to use them...

[KLRANGL]

Sorry - but if you constantly have to 'clear' your house with a gun because of noises - might rethink things.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth amigo... Ive never cleared my house with a firearm before, and have previously stated my objection to it... Now I just look crazy :p

My point was just that houses make lots of noise (esp mine). No sense getting your panties in a bunch every time you hear something creak...

Throw a bunch of matchbox cars and jacks out in the hallway
a la Home Alone? haha... awesome, but probably not a high priority in that kind of situation...

[Slopemeno]

Matchbox cars is one of the best ideas I've heard.

Point is- if someone is really there, you don't want to stumble into them. I think most people here say "clear" and it translates into "I'm gonna go look around with my gun"...not "Wow, somebody really IS there".

I've had the misfortune to 1) Go outside, and 2) Actually found someone on two occasions. If I had used my head, got the cops on the way and not gone rushing out there, I would have saved myself a lot of risk and effort.
Luckily for me, neither person was armed, or much of a real threat, but in hindsight I really went charging out there without any idea of what I might be getting into. Call 911. Stay inside. Stay in your room/end of the house. Arm youself.

Oh, and when 911 answers, the first words out of your mouth are "Suspect present". I said that one time and you could hear the four cop cars in the area go to WOT.

[KLRANGL]

Matchbox cars is one of the best ideas I've heard.

Really? In a world where people breaking into a house have successfully sued for injures sustained, and where booby trapping your house is illegal?
Or was that sarcasm?

[OldMarksman]

From Slopememo: I've had the misfortune to 1) Go outside, and 2) Actually found someone on two occasions. If I had used my head, ..and not gone rushing out there, I would have saved myself a lot of risk and effort....in hindsight I really went charging out there without any idea of what I might be getting into. Call 911. Stay inside. Stay in your room/end of the house. Arm youself.

Good advice.

And everyone should be aware of the law in their jurisdictions. Where I live, the moment I step outside, the castle doctrine law ceases to apply, and I'm only justified in using deadly force if I am attacked and have not provoked the encounter.

I sure wouldn't want to have a gun in my hand.

[Slopemeno]

No, Matchbox cars because I've stepped on them in my bare feet before...

[chrisp0410]

In most senarios, I vehemently state, DO NOT CLEAR YOUR HOUSE. You are inviting yourself to be an easy target. Houses, condos, apartments, all have rooms accessed via halls. A hall is a choke point. Where do you target an ambush? CHOKE POINTS. A lone homeowner clearing a house is foolish.

With that said, I also stated "most senarios." An exception would be if I knew loved ones were in another area of the house. Many modern home floorplans put a master bedroom on one side of the house with the kid's bedrooms on the other. If I owned one of these, I would be forced to clear. But I would also have a predefined plan; i.e. call to the kids to stay put, announce that I am armed, stay low and do what I have to to protect my family.

I am not in this senario, I own a three-story townhouse with bedrooms only on the third floor. If someone breaks through the double-keyed deadbolted exterior doors into my home (or climb a ladder to the picture windows on the second floor), they then have to deal with an alarm, the attack cat, two staircases and finally my Wilson Combat 12 GA.

I have insurance to replace my TV, stereo, microwave, etc., I have my shotgun to defend my a$$.

Chrisp0410

[Yankee Traveler]

I rise before the sun does. Have for years. Not because I want to, I would rather party all night and sleep all day like I was 17... (I mean 21!) but I prefer to keep the kids fed and clothed so I get up every morning without a hangover.
Anyway my morning routine goes like this:
Shut off the alarm. Go to the bathroom and use the john while the shower heats, then shower. Leave the shower, go shave (every other day...). Enter bedroom, pull clothes from dresser/closet and dress. Go down stairs, say good morning to Mr. Dinky (the cat, dog passed away), get OJ for the kids/coffee for the wife and finally make my two travel mugs of Joe (a 20 oz and a 16 oz). My wife and I both take coffee medium light with 2% milk, no sugar. I then carry the juice and coffee back upstairs and if my wife is not up yet I turn the light on
Then I go back to the bathroom to be sure i didn't miss a spot shaveing.
I have done this everywhere I lived, except there wasn't always kids and juice. I could pick out my German Shepherd Dog in the shadows at midnight.
Flashlights are for people who do not excercise there rods (the ones in your eye's, not your pants) often enough or are just afraid of the dark.
Darkness is your friend, embrace it.

[OldMarksman]

From Yankee Traveler: Flashlights are for people who do not excercise there rods ... often enough or are just afraid of the dark.


Flashlights also prevent an intruder from being able to see you.

[GetYerShells]

Not to be rude but...when I created this thread I didn't really care to hear what people's morning routines consisted of. If you are having trouble with not knowing what the thread is about just look at my O.P. I don't really care about how much milk you put in your coffee or how strong your night adapted vision is.

[M1911]

A light attached to a gun is a perfect aid if your opponent does not have a gun.

People who do it for a living seem to think weapon-mounted lights are a good thing. Note the lights on the LAPD SWAT team's MP5s:

http://www.kfi640.com/cc-common/mlib/616/03/616_1206230371.JPG

Kansas City SWAT team:

http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/images/2008/01/16/police.jpg

NJ State Police SWAT team:

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2007/11/large_aswat.jpg

I'm not sure which team this is:

http://www.stevespanglerphotography.com/images/SWAT%20Team%20at%20Abraxas_145001.jpg

A team in CT:

http://blog.masslive.com/breakingnews/2008/06/medium_Standoff2.jpg

FBI HRT:

http://www.fbijobs.gov/images/masterHeadrLrgHRT.jpg

[Yankee Traveler]

Please excuse my idiocy for not being able to filter my bad day out of posting. I apologize for this.

What I meant to say, but couldn't due to rectal cranial insertion, was a flashlight on the weapon is much better than no light at all. It is always much better to have and not need then need and not have. While I always try to keep my night vision "tuned", a flashlight can also render an intruder blind if turned on at the right time.
Best case scenario, a combo light/laser on the gun, and a handheld mag light in the other. It's a second weapon as well as giving the opportunity to lighten the perp without pointing a chambered round at him/her/it. Also gives the ability to shine light in two different directions if needed. Combo laser/light gives the ability to aim without standing behind the light also.
Be prepared for the worst though, and the ability to see in low light conditions can be a great asset. As can knowing your environment in the dark. As well as multiple choices for shedding light on a situation. Motion lights outside are a first line defense as well.

Bottom line, Flashlight on the weapon imo, and more is better.

[Jager78]

Weapon mounted lights can be of advantage in the right conditions.
To effectively use them you must be trained to use them, the same goes for your weapon. I think most of you will agree with this?


____________________________________________________________________________________

HK45 w/ Insight M6X Laser/Tactical Illuminator

Sig Pro W/ Insight XTI Procyon Tactical Iluminator and CT Laser grip

[M1911]

Weapon mounted lights can be of advantage in the right conditions.
To effectively use them you must be trained to use them, the same goes for your weapon. I think most of you will agree with this?Agreed. Low-light training is important.

[MrNiceGuy]

i have trijicons, a laser/tac light, and a 20round mag

now, will i use the laser/tac light? maybe, i dont know... it depends on the situation... but if it's on the gun, i at least have the option

will i use all 20 rounds? i dont know... it depends on the situation... but if it's in the gun, at least i have the option

will i even use the trijicons? i dont know... it depends on the situation... but if it's in the gun, at least i have the option

the old adage is as true now as it ever was

i'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it

[GetYerShells]

I want to say thank you to everyone for making this thread an enjoyable read. These are some great opinions / suggestions. Another thanks for not turning this thread into a mud slinging contest!

Phil

[easyG]

I don't prefer a light on my weapon for home defense.
Cops use lights because they are almost always going in to an unfamiliar place.
I know my own home like the back of my hand, and if I hear a suspicious noise I keep the lights off and investigate.
I can't imagine calling the cops just because I heard a noise somewhere in or around my house.

[Recon7]

I think a light is mandatory. where you put it is up to you, it is a good idea not to turn it on and leave it on, only use it when necessary. (your rods may vary). A light in absolutely necessary for PID (positive ID) don't go blasting away at shadows.

There is a difference between a noise or sound in your house and hearing something that you can distinguish as an intruder. I don't want to call the police on my child or 3 dogs. you have to approach the threat as you interpret it. You may hear 1 noise and nothing further and go check it out. I would definitely take a defensive posture and call 911 if it didn't feel right, but not for every noise.

Team tactics are not individual tactics, a team will rush a room and the first man can commit to go left and the next guy can go right. An individual needs to be a little more cautious.

[OldMarksman]

From easyG:

Cops use lights because they are almost always going in to an unfamiliar place.

I believe they also use them to keep the suspect from being able to see them--a advantage in a home defense situation, I should think.

I know my own home like the back of my hand, and if I hear a suspicious noise I keep the lights off and investigate.

How do you see who it is you may have heard--and identify who they are?

I can't imagine calling the cops just because I heard a noise somewhere in or around my house.

This was discussed in the thread about the man who lost an arm investigating a noise outside. As David Armstrong said, if you're concerned enough to arm yourself, you should probably call the police.

This is repetitive of previous posts on the thread, but the preponderance of expert opinion is that you should let the threat come to you, and that you have no business "clearing your house" in the first place.

I do keep a tactical flashlight for the purpose of illuminating the threat and reducing his ability to see me.

It is not on the weapon. That's a personal call, but in my view it's safer.

[Recon7]

if you're concerned enough to arm yourself, you should probably call the police.
I am "concerned enough to arm myself" 90% of the time I leave my house.

I mostly agree with you, but there is some "gray area" between calling 911 and hunkering down in the bedroom, and going down stairs unarmed.

[easyG]

How do you see who it is you may have heard--and identify who they are?
Well, there's just me and my wife and the dog.
My friends and family know to ring the front door bell and state who's there....nobody just comes in unannounced.
So if you're in my home, and me and my wife didn't invite you, then you're an intruder and you probably deserve to be shot.

....and that you have no business "clearing your house" in the first place.
I just don't get this kind of attitude.
It seems that men have been beaten over the head with such politically correct nonsense for so long that they are virtually feminized.

[pax]

Some folks seem to have gotten the idea that it's okay to insult someone else on TFL -- to call them cowards or spineless, to impugn their manhood or their manners.

This is not so.

Those who cannot discuss a subject without maligning the folks who disagree with them about it should avoid posting in threads discussing that subject.

pax

[OldMarksman]

I'm going to ask for some help from the experts here.

There are good, non-political reasons that all of the recognized experts recommend "waiting for the threat to come to you."

One that I have heard articulated is that you have the advantage over an intruder. You can get into a reasonably hidden position and cover the approach. You can see anyone approaching, but the assailant does no know where you are. That approach is safer for you, and more likely to yield success.

Can any of the experts add to that, or if need be, correct it?

Another reason was relayed to me in my CCW course. A policeman in our area heard a noise, went to investigate, found that someone was moving around behind cover in the house, and fired--to find that he had killed his daughter, who was trying to avoid being discovered having come home to too late. He had put himself into a position of danger and felt he had no recourse, with tragic results.

Any others that the experts may care to add?

My objective here is to bring forth informed discussion that can serve to illuminate the subject and help the membership in an important area, not to press or counter an argument.

If this has already been covered in the forums I have failed in looking for it, and in any event it is clear that others could use the tutorial. You may simply cite the links, if the are there.

Thanks in advance.

[David Armstrong]

Can any of the experts add to that, or if need be, correct it?
I'll pass on the expert issue, but yes, you are correct. Defense is always a stronger position than assault. It allows you to select the place of the fight and control, to some extent, the lines of access by the other party.
He had put himself into a position of danger and felt he had no recourse, with tragic results.
Pretty regular set of events. We hear about the homeowner who shoots the wrong person, and we hear about the homeowner who is injured by the BG. We never hear, AFAIK, of either of those happening when the homeowner bunkers up, calls the police, and waits.

I've said it before, I'll say it again..way too many folks on these forums who seem to be looking to start a gunfight just because they can, not because there is a real need.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are several cases of the searcher nailing a family member.

A particularly tragic one was a teenage girl who was supposed to be out. Came back earlier, hid in the closet and left the front door open.

Was going to jump out and scare Dad. He saw the door open, went in, she jumped out. COM with a 357, IIRC. She died saying: Daddy, I love you.

Saw the guy videoed - not a pretty sight.

Then there was the Louisana case of the Japanese kid who was killed because he didn't understand English and the homeowner went outside to face him. The kid was acting weird because of Holloween and in costume. The guy could have stayed outside.

There are others.

Second, I've done some home defense FOF - in one class, the burglars were skilled opponents - they easily took down the explorer defender. It is very easy to ambush the unskilled or even the skilled (if alone).

Third, even if you shoot someone righteously (but you didn't have to) there are many aftermath consequences. Police may suffer from such after even a good shoot. Saying it wouldn't affect you may be Internet bravado. Many very brave folks think it wasn't pleasant. We just finished a study of police PTSD and reviewed the lit (thanks Dave, Charlie). If you see what happens, you don't want to go through it psychologically if you didn't have to prevent grievous bodily harm.

Last, many of these discussions digress (as Pax pointed out) to a sense of outrage over turf violation and territory. So what, live through the day.

[44Magnum]

I took a class that taught room, hallway, and stairway clearing in low light conditions. I am NOT a professional, but here's what I took from the experience:

* The homeowner is at a disadvantage the moment he begins clearing.

* Get off a staircase, or die. You break too many planes at once and it really requires a partner to do properly.

* The intruder generally knows you're there when you begin to clear.

* Resist the urge to aim with the mounted flashlight...You will miss! This is an easy habit to get into when under stress in a time-sensitive situation.

* The aiming area is well lit but surrounded by darkness, this makes your sights look extremely crisp. It's difficult to get used to without continual practice.

Despite having instruction, I would NEVER voluntarially clear my house. I can't even imagine how frightening it would be under real conditions. I don't have a family yet, so I would simply lock my bedroom door and wait with my gun while calling 911. Anybody entering would be at a severe disadvantage.

[OldMarksman]

Not to preclude any other contributions, but thanks very much to David Armstrong, Glenn E. Meyer, and 44Magnum.

I hope that these contributions will prove highly valuable to everyone who may be faced with a home defense situation. Moreover, I should think that for anyone who takes the short amount of time it take to read and consider them, they will correct any possible misconceptions that the generally recommended strategies are in any way based on political correctness or on anything else of that nature.

I really hope that anyone who is faced with a dangerous situation understands the serious ramifications, takes every effort to avoid getting into a gunfight, and avoids getting killed or injured and killing or injuring an innocent person. This is serious business.

Thanks again. I am honored to participate with you in these discussions.

[Stevie-Ray]

In the house I am presently in, I don't have much need for a tactical flashlight. I can turn on lights in the suspected room, and pretty much remain in darkness myself. My house is small enough also, that there is just not too many places to hide in a room bathed in light. It will not be my final house, but I will take pains to make the next one as much like this as possible, as it sure makes it easier to investigate the usual "bumps in the night." I have cats, so there is a lot of them. I certainly will call the police and wait in our bedroom for something I am far more certain is a break-in, rather than my normal "clearing," though.

"Tactical" switching and remotes, guys.:D Nothing better, at least in some houses.

[heyduke]

People who do it for a living seem to think weapon-mounted lights are a good thing. Note the lights on the LAPD SWAT team's MP5s:


Paramilitary.

Notice how many guys have guns?

Superior firepower sometimes helps a situation.

Problem is, when you're home, chances are you may not have superior firepower, but "equal" firepower.

Bottom line, you can only shoot one gun at a time.

Funny, the observations and pictures that you posted are probably one good reason why we now have the word "tactical"" put on everything, so it sells better:D

[M1911]

There are several cases of the searcher nailing a family member.There is also the Ragsdale case in MA. A fellow returned home early from being out of town. His alarm went off. Police arrived. He shot a police officer, thinking the officer was a burglar.

http://www.telegram.com/article/20081024/NEWS/810240648/0/FRONTPAGE

Paramilitary.

Notice how many guys have guns?

Superior firepower sometimes helps a situation.

Problem is, when you're home, chances are you may not have superior firepower, but "equal" firepower.

Bottom line, you can only shoot one gun at a time. None of which has anything to do with whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing.

[heyduke]

None of which has anything to do with whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing

Yes it does and I have to assume you have no clue as to why.

Usually SWAT wears bullet protection and "goes in" with mulitple team members.

Do you:rolleyes:

Having and using a light in a dark place, not knowing where your enemy is at, will give your position away (same as using a laser). But hey, they're cool!

If you're "one on one" (as a civilian), you can now be at a disadvantage because your enemy may get you first if you don't know their position, because you're still using the flashlight to illuminate the area looking for someone.

However, going in with multiple team members, knowing were everone is at (verbal at worst), if the enemy decides to engage (because you're using a light and the enemy knows they will soon be located), his (the enemy) position will still be given away due to discharging his weapon. Chances are if SWAT is wearing helmets along with kevlar, those first shots taken by the enemy may take a guy down, but should not be life threatning. Other team members now know where the threat is and can eliminate that threat through superior firepower.

Unlike the movies, when entering and clearing a building or room with multiple team members, it's a BAD idea to get seperated from each other for various reasons.

Also unlike the movies, "usually" the people with more guns wins if those people know what they are doing and take the proper safety procedures.

One on one, always give your advasary the benifit of the doubt.

[VHinch]

To those advocating clearing your house on your own, I strongly suggest getting some FOF experience at a reputable training center. Nothing drives home the point of how dangerous it is better than getting repeatedly shot with Simunitions for 8 hours.

I have also been trained in building clearing, and I absolutely will not do it unless I have no other choice. "No other choice" in this context is defined as either my wife or child is on the opposite end of the house from me with a BG between us.

[OldMarksman]

From VHinch: To those advocating clearing your house on your own, I strongly suggest getting some FOF experience at a reputable training center. Nothing drives home the point of how dangerous it is better than getting repeatedly shot with Simunitions for 8 hours. I have also been trained in building clearing, and I absolutely will not do it unless I have no other choice. "No other choice" in this context is defined as either my wife or child is on the opposite end of the house from me with a BG between us.

That's from someone in law enforcement who knows the subject.

That oughta nail it!

[M1911]

heyduke:

Once again, you fail to address the issue being discussed: whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing.

Yes, a homeowner is not a SWAT team. No, I have never suggested that someone should clear a house. If you had bothered to actually read my posts, you would have realized that.

Yes, turning on a flashlight reveals your position. That is true whether it is on your gun or in your hand. By the way, flashlights (both mounted and unmounted) have switches. You can turn them off.

None of which has anything to do with whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing
Yes it does and I have to assume you have no clue as to why.

I have to assume that you have never had low-light training and have no clue about when to use your light and when not to.

[heyduke]

Once again, you fail to address the issue being discussed: whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing.


Apoliges, usually as a civilian, it's a bad thing because it gives a false sense of courage.

No, I have never suggested that someone should clear a house.

Apologies, I assumed incorrectly, my mistake.

I have to assume that you have never had low-light training and have no clue about when to use your light and when not to.

Never "low light" training, however I may surprise you, and I have actually ****** my pants and realize that courage is nothing more than being able to do something while ****ting your pants at the same time:o

Seems that gun forums seem to get the "big balls" syndrome where, when people are armed, they can do anything because they have a gun;)

What most of us forget is that the brain is the most effective weapon.

EDIT: Don't listen to the ramblings of an "old man". For most, I have no clue what I'm talking about. I only sincerely request that you don't copy these last three sentences and make fun of me.

[JAYBIRD78]

First off I think we should agree that we all disagree.

Second, I find it hard to believe that everytime someone hears a suspicious sound or unfamiliar noise that they hit the "jodie foster" panic button and hunker down calling the police. Going to have to raise the bull**** flag on that one. I'm sure the local enforcement officers would tire of showing up at your house 3 or 4 times a month/year.

Third, a lot of our members must live in multi-million dollar super mansions. I live in a 1500 sq. ft home with like 7 rooms and a basement. If someone breaks in I won't have a lot of time to clear the house if they are coming for me.

Be smart, aim small/miss small. God bless

[fiddletown]

...If someone breaks in I won't have a lot of time to clear the house if they are coming for me.
But you're still better off in a defensible position with him coming for you than you are going looking for him. When you go looking, you give the BG a substantial advantage.

One thing I find particularly interesting, in this and a similar thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317285). It seems that most of the folks around here who have had some training in house clearing and who have done some solo house clearing exercises in that training (sometime force-on-force using simunitions) seem generally to want to avoid doing it themselves in real life. Could that be a clue that solo house clearing is not a good thing to do?

[OldMarksman]

From JAYBIRD78: I find it hard to believe that everytime someone hears a suspicious sound or unfamiliar noise that they hit the "jodie foster" panic button and hunker down calling the police. Going to have to raise the bull**** flag on that one. I'm sure the local enforcement officers would tire of showing up at your house 3 or 4 times a month/year.

I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree with that.

Perhaps this may make sense to you:

[INDENT]If the sound clearly is indicative of an icemaker or dishwasher problem, a broken water line, logs shifting in the fireplace, or an unfastended screen door blowing in the wind, I'll go to it, and I will not arm myself.

If the sound comes from a smoke alarm or a CO detector, we have different drill--leave immediately.

If the sound is indeterminate, but could be a flexible lamp shifting, a book sliding off the arm of a chair, or a bag falling over, and it does not recur, I most probably would not go down. And if I did, I most probably would not arm myself. I would, however, listen for a while to assure myself that things are OK.

If an ongoing sound indicates that someone is in the house, I will arm myself, call for help, tell them where I am and that I am armed, conceal myself, and shout a loud warning.

Now, someone has suggested a remote camera system, and that sounds like an excellent idea to me. Apparently quite inexpensive.

Your thoughts?

By the way, my house is about the same size as yours--two story.

[buzz_knox]

Apoliges, usually as a civilian, it's a bad thing because it gives a false sense of courage.



Where did you get that from? As a civilian, it doesn't give me a false sense of courage, it just gives me light. Well, light and a free support hand to do other things like support the weapon. Frankly, if you go with the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, it makes even more sense to have a weapon light. If you've done the verbal challenge, hopped around in your bedroom bunkering down, gotten everyone where they need to go, it's not like the bad guy is unaware of your presence. And if, as many do, you have to leave the room to go get the kiddies, having a free hand to carry/manuever them with is helpful.

Never "low light" training, however I may surprise you, and I have actually ****** my pants and realize that courage is nothing more than being able to do something while ****ting your pants at the same time


You should try it sometime. You'll find there's a place for both a handheld light and a weapon light. The handheld allows you to light up shadowed areas when necessary (i.e. such as behind the main area illuminated by the weapon light) while the weapon light allows you to use both hands. On a long gun (shotgun or carbine), weapon lights are particularly useful. Having both is always preferable if, as mine did, your sole light (handheld) goes in the middle of a shooting drill and 10 minutes before clearing a house. That's a fun experience.

[heyduke]

Frankly, if you go with the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, it makes even more sense to have a weapon light.

Apologies, I don't understand your comment. If you have the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, why would you go in the first place, let alone need a flashlight?

it doesn't give me a false sense of courage, it just gives me light

My point is that for some people, given a light, they will proceed, without a light, they may stay put (pertaining to the perception of danger). As noted below, I even use a flashlight in the dark:D

it's not like the bad guy is unaware of your presence.

I don't care if the bad guy knows where I'm at. I have only one point of entry to focus on. The police have been called and are on their way. The advantage is mine.

By the way, I've got 3 surefires and a multitude of other lights including hand held spot lights which I litterally use every morning and night out around the house with the animals.

[buzz_knox]

Apologies, I don't understand your comment. If you have the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, why would you go in the first place, let alone need a flashlight?

Because even if you are bunkered down and the presumed bad guy is coming your way, you still have an absolute need to identify the target, and to hit the target. Both ends are served if you have a weaponlight. You can shoot with a handheld flashlight or one lying on the bed but personally, I plan on being as deep behind cover as I can and that is made easier by having a weaponlight.

The principal objections to weapon lights are 1) you may use them in a search and end up sweeping a non-target and 2) they make you a bullseye. The first is a training issue and the second is less of an issue than some claim. But neither is implicated if you are holding position and letting the presumed bad guy come to you.

[heyduke]

Because even if you are bunkered down and the presumed bad guy is coming your way, you still have an absolute need to identify the target, and to hit the target. Both ends are served if you have a weaponlight. You can shoot with a handheld flashlight or one lying on the bed but personally, I plan on being as deep behind cover as I can and that is made easier by having a weaponlight.


Very narrow lane of fire to the door.

One reason why verbal communication is VERY important.

1. To let the BG know you mean business and the police have been called.

2. So the police, when in the house will know where my wife is.

By chance, if my wife hollars that she will blow anyone's f***ing head off if they come into the bedroom, and that person or intruders is stupid enough to break down that locked door (without any verbal communication as to the actions being taken and by whom), she is instructed to shoot first, ask questions later. Simple.

I do however have a Surfire by the bed. Usually for myself.

[heyduke]

Because even if you are bunkered down and the presumed bad guy is coming your way, you still have an absolute need to identify the target, and to hit the target. Both ends are served if you have a weaponlight. You can shoot with a handheld flashlight or one lying on the bed but personally, I plan on being as deep behind cover as I can and that is made easier by having a weaponlight.


Very narrow lane of fire to the bedroom door from the corner of the room.

One reason why verbal communication is so important.

You point however is accepted by myself in certain situations, but the topic is clearing a house with a flashlight, not "being bunkered down with a flashlight".

Nocitced I mentioned I have some Surefires?

[buzz_knox]

I understand the topic, but your comment seemed focused more on a weaponlight providing courage in general, rather than the specific scenario.

As for the bullet funnel effect of a doorway/hall, I understand. My problem is that Mr. Murphy hates me and has sent the police to my door three times due principally to misreading of addresses. He has also caused my alarm to falsely initiate once or twice. I fully trust Mr. Murphy to arrange a situation where someone I would rather not to shoot (even if legally entitled) is in my home and I want to be able to see who the person in the bullet funnel is. If they are shooting at me, great as I have sufficient target ID for said purposes. If not, then I would like a light to show me who happens to be wandering around . . . like a cop responding to a duress code I didn't know some computer glitch had sent.

Are the odds of this rare? Sure. But I consider it good training for when there are children in the home who are inclined to do as children will, and come in/out when they shouldn't.

[heyduke]

I understand the topic, but your comment seemed focused more on a weaponlight providing courage in general, rather than the specific scenario.


Apologies, seems we had a misunderstanding.

As for the bullet funnel effect of a doorway/hall, I understand. My problem is that Mr. Murphy hates me and has sent the police to my door three times due principally to misreading of addresses. He has also caused my alarm to falsely initiate once or twice. I fully trust Mr. Murphy to arrange a situation where someone I would rather not to shoot (even if legally entitled) is in my home and I want to be able to see who the person in the bullet funnel is. If they are shooting at me, great as I have sufficient target ID for said purposes. If not, then I would like a light to show me who happens to be wandering around . . . like a cop responding to a duress code I didn't know some computer glitch had sent.

Are the odds of this rare? Sure. But I consider it good training for when there are children in the home who are inclined to do as children will, and come in/out when they shouldn't.

Perhaps I'm at an advantage, no children.

Also seems we live in different enviroments, which help form our opinions.

I live in the country, house off the road, very little in the terms of a "neighborhood" to speak. As mentioned, you can't just "wonder" up to my place, you have to make an effort to get there.

You can, and will hear auto gun fire go off in the night, with NO response from LEO's.

I've had numerous LEO's from different counties come over my place to shoot. Most are familiar with my house, and some I consider good friends.

I agree 100 percent that you should know what you're shooting at.

That said, if my wife makes a mistake, I want that mistake made in her advantage. The bedroom light is to be turned on while she waits in the bedroom. Some benifits to that having an "intruder" come from a dark hallway by chance if they try to break in.

Fact is, if my wife hollars that she will shoot someones f***ing head off if a percieved intruder trys to break in, and they are stupid enough to break the locked door down without any verbal communication, I have no qualms with telling her to shoot until the gun is empty.

I'm proud to say that I've got her nailing some small boxes with that 870 at some good distances.

Then again, in the time that I've lived here, I've never had a "bump in the night" so to speak that the dogs (my only security system) havn't taken care of (neighbors guinea hens being one of them:eek:)

[akr]

The purpose of a light is not to navigate your way along during house clearing--or any other time.

It's to illuminate the target an INSTANT BEFORE you make the decision to shoot. Such a light can be shined at the floor or bounced off the ceiling in order to determine if you're dealing with friend or foe so you won't end up pointing a gun at one of your kids, or Uncle Harry raiding the refridgerator. A room, or hallway, can be illuminated in this manner with enough light to check things out--from behind cover.

The light can be used in a number of different ways, but house clearing with the light turned on isn't one of them. And of course, it can be used to shine in the eyes of a known hostile target so you can see your sights. Boy can you see your sights!



This is basic stuff, I don't claim to be an expert. I'd recommend a video on the subject, like the one Clint Smith puts out, and hands on training as well.

I'd also recommend his tape on house clearing, which he doesn't advocate doing. Perhaps, the main value of the tape is to impress upon you the extreme danger involved, but it has great info in case you abosolutely have to.

My only light, at least at this point, is on my 870 for the purpose of positive ID before using deadly force.

Nnobby45 has it right. Those of us who have weapon mounted lights DO KNOW not to turn them on so someone can shoot at us. They are only to be used an instant before you pull the trigger on a BG.

[akr]

A general word of caution since several posters have mentioned Ayoob.

Mr. Ayoob is a member here and enjoys the same protection against personal attacks that every other TFL member does.

I have learned a lot from Mr. Ayoob. What he says pertaining to firearms and self defense, I believe it.

[Deet]

Great thread, Really interesting concepts. I am part of the stay put, call 911 keep eye on bedroom door, gun in one hand flashlight in the other. But...my daughter, son-in law (works graveyard) and two grand kids live next door in the attached duplex to me, if my daughter calls me in the middle of the nite about an intruder, I'll rush over to her house in about .01 seconds. When my daughter and grand kids are in trouble I'll not think twice about clearing their house no matter what. Yes I agree it is not the "smart" thing to do, but sure the hell beats having to wait outside for the police, while my daughter and grand kids are being hurt. Just my .02 worth.

[David Armstrong]

When my daughter and grand kids are in trouble I'll not think twice about clearing their house no matter what.
Again, let's think about this. Do you need to clear the house, or will it be better if you immediately go to where they are so you can defend them?

[JohnH1963]

If a light on the gun is such a bad idea, then why do they sell lights for guns and why do tactical teams use them?

Why would you need a flashlight to clear a house? Im assuming that if you suspect someone is in the house then you would turn on every light you can. In fact, the first thing I do when I hear a noise in the house is start turning on lights both inside and out.

[OldMarksman]

From JohnH1963: If a light on the gun is such a bad idea, then why do they sell lights for guns and why do tactical teams use them?


For the latter, you would have to ask someone with tactical team experience.

That answer may not be very useful for home defense, but for what it's worth, my CCW instructor, who teaches the "get into a safe place and let the threat come to you" approach, has a light on his home defense Glock. You will not find him clearing a house.

[The Canuck]

If a light on the gun is such a bad idea, then why do they sell lights for guns and why do tactical teams use them?

Why would you need a flashlight to clear a house? Im assuming that if you suspect someone is in the house then you would turn on every light you can. In fact, the first thing I do when I hear a noise in the house is start turning on lights both inside and out.

The light on the gun is not such a bad idea. It is for target ident before firing. Kind of like IFF for pongos. Tactical teams are under a different set of rules of engagement than the average citizen. Their ROE is to locate, capture and shoot armed resistors. This puts them on the offensive and this means they will be very heavily armed and armoured. They will work in teams with sectors and will definitely have each other's backs. The lights used for this role (the same ones we have) are to blind/dazzle/confuse the opposition as well as ID the target. Tac teams are stormtroopers when they are forced into CQB, they move fast & hit hard.

When you go room to room turning on lights you present a macro target (hey the guy's in THAT room, let's go this way and get him from behind, left, right ambush him in this room when he hits the light, whatever). I would still recommend that you head to ground in your redoubt and hold on until help arrives. Besides, if you are static, this will assist the guys here to help you in locating friendlies and not shoot them.

Really, trust me on this. I have had to go through the door more than once and each time was like eating a tub of dirt. You gotta do it, but you hate doing it.

[OldMarksman]

From The Canuck: Besides, if you are static, this will assist the guys here to help you in locating friendlies and not shoot them.

Excellent point. I had not thought of that, but if you are walking around with a gun and the police see you, how would they know not to neutralize and seize you?

[buzz_knox]

Excellent point. I had not thought of that, but if you are walking around with a gun and the police see you, how would they know not to neutralize and seize you?

In the perfect world, you or your loved one will have given a description of yourself to the dispatcher, who will have flawlessly repeated it to the responding officers, who will then identify you.

In reality, you are likely to get shot, just as plain clothes/off duty officers do at a distressingly high rate.

Clearing a house and calling 911 aren't great in combination. If you have someone you have to get to (kids, dogs, grandmother's ashes on the mantle) during or after the call to 911 to get help, you just have to suck it up and take the risk that you may get shot while performing this task.

[akr]

I'm really fond of the light switch on these lights...it doesn't turn the light on until you flip the switch. It's a manual thing, like choosing between the heat and the a/c on our central heat systems.

[JohnH1963]

Most people who read this thread may believe that all of us are guys who live in an area where the police respond in minutes. As well, most people who read this thread may believe that everyone lives in a house that makes no noise.

In certain situations, it may not be practical to call the police such as if you live in a windy area in an old house. You cant simply call the police every time there is a noise in the house, however, at the same time you cant just sit there. Lets say you live in a house in rural Montana and hear a noise that might be caused by the wind. Are you going to call the police who are over an hour away and then apologize once they find it was nothing?

When you live out in a rural area, then the police might be hours away. Have you ever seen a police car on a rural highway with lights and siren on speeding somewhere? Even though he may be going at over 100 mph, the reality is that he may not make it to his intended destination for about an hour or more especially in areas such as Montana. Should I wait an hour for the police while there is someone in my house with my family?

In certain situations, you cant rely on the sheriff's SWAT team or the local police. In fact, there are some rural areas where there is only a few officers and you are the officer's backup. Thats why there are liberal carry laws in places like Arizona, Texas, etc. There is simply too much space and not enough cops. The police love to see civilians with weapons because then there will be more people to back him up when things really get hairy.

In some rural areas, the people who live there are rugged enough and usually know their weapons. In fact, I would argue that a man from a rural part of the midwest might be better trained and equipped then a SWAT team member from certain cities. Just go into an NRA members house in the midwest or a place like Texas and you will find they are well armed and practice with those arms quite frequently.

[fiddletown]

...In certain situations, it may not be practical to call the police such as if you live in a windy area in an old house. You cant simply call the police every time there is a noise in the house, however, at the same time you cant just sit there. Lets say you live in a house in rural Montana and hear a noise that might be caused by the wind. Are you going to call the police who are over an hour away and then apologize once they find it was nothing?...
True, but it doesn't change the simple fact that --

If, you grab your gun and go investigate a noise; and

If, there is a BG, or more than one BG; and

If, he, or they, are willing to engage you;

Then the odds are overwhelming that you will lose (and if the police respond, you might get shot by them).
So, how do you want to play it?

...I would argue that a man from a rural part of the midwest might be better trained and equipped then a SWAT team member from certain cities....
I seriously doubt that. Even in our small community, the SWAT team, who also have regular patrol duties, train several times a week as a team. They regularly do force-on-force exercises using simunitions in a shoot house. Several times a year they participate in competitive joint exercises with similar teams from neighboring communities.

...Just go into an NRA members house in the midwest or a place like Texas and you will find they are well armed and practice with those arms quite frequently.
I'm sure that's the case. I fit that description, for that matter. But this isn't just about being good with your gun.

If there is a BG, you don’t know where he is. When you go looking for him, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. There maybe more than one increasing your chance of being ambushed. When you are blindsided, it doesn’t matter how good you are with your gun. You might not even get a chance to use it. See http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317285& .

Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first six of these annual events, only one competitor, in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

[OldMarksman]

JohnH, I find Fiddletown's arguments compelling.

It is true that if you live in a remote area, you will be more likely to have to rely upon yourself in the event of trouble. However, that would not seem to indicate in favor of putting yourself up against overwhelming odds by going on a search mission and giving up the advantages of a defensive position.

It seems to me that anything that gives you better information about what caused the noise, whether or not there is an intruder, and if so, where he is, would be to your advantage, and even more so when you're in a rural setting.

A remote camera system might be an excellent measure.

Along with some dogs!

[buzz_knox]

In a rural setting, the bad guys have time on their side. If they mean to do you harm, they have the time to figure out how to do so. The best defense is to make it abundantly clear to them that making the effort is going to cost them.

Some friends of mine lived in rural NC, just west of absolutely nothing. They had some home invaders try the "my car broke down can you help us" routine at 2 a.m. The family turned out the interior lights, flipped on the exterior lights (spotting the blacked out van driving slowly towards the house as they did so), and bunkered down. A rather loud explanation that they were armed and any invasion would be repelled by overwhelming and deadly force caused the bad guys to flee. When the cops arrived a long while later, they informed the family that this was a crew doing home invasions, and the family was the first one to avoid getting hit once it started.

[akr]

If you hear a noise at night, there is a good chance that there is another BG somewhere else who sees you coming......I would stay put if I could.

[The Canuck]

JohnH1963 does make a few interesting points, but as I said before you have to get you and your loved ones to the safe room and sit tight. The only time you should consider leaving the safe room before help arrives is if you have no other way to keep living. If the badguys come and go and whatever that's fine. But the only time I'm coming out of the safe room is if;

1). It is the only way to stay alive (A fire etc.).

2). The Police on the other end of the line give the all clear.

Now on to JohnH1963's comments about training. I would beg to disagree with the comment about training. To train in CQB with house clearing means a dedicated tasking of training to clear a flippin' house. A few hours at the range shooting targets does not a CQB fighter make, no sirree. When I did the training we were at it for eight weeks, that's two months of running up and down stairs, climbing up to floors where the stairs had been removed, sweeping rooms, cross streeting, weapons retention, sighting cues, visual, auditory and scent cues. Detection of the enemy in the CQB environment, Communication in the CQB environment, checking doors/windows, entering a room (Dynamic, Convergence and Un-conventional), Identifier Friend or Foe methods, Shoot-no-shoot scenarios, Hardened position access, Cover/concealment determination and the use of cover/concealment offensively & defensively, Cover fire in a CQB environment... the list goes on. Of big note, it wasn't until I had actually participated in clearing an actual house during an actual confrontation that I knew I could do it. Going through a doorway/window when you figure there's a guy in that room hunkered down ready to shoot you is not easy.

The only advantage you have over any perpetrators is that you have a better idea of the floor plan of your house. The rest of the advantages stack up in the bad-guy's column pretty damned quick.

So if you have to, HAVE TO, clear a path to safety, then do it, but remember that when you clear a path it can always be intersected by enemy activity. When you are moving you are more vulnerable. Things are always dynamic, even when they appear to be remaining static.

[David Armstrong]

In fact, I would argue that a man from a rural part of the midwest might be better trained and equipped then a SWAT team member from certain cities. Just go into an NRA members house in the midwest or a place like Texas and you will find they are well armed and practice with those arms quite frequently.
Better equipped, maybe. Better trained, very doubtful unless the person was trained previously in military or LE setttings. Sure, someone that has gone through Thunder Ranch several times, and made multliple trips to Gunsite, or so on might have the advantage, but other than that, no, I just don't see it. Even the average cop, not SWAT, will regularly clear buildings and homes for real. SWAT in particular will have lots of practice if nothing else doing that specific task. Lots more to clearing a house/engaging a BG than jsut shooting skills.

[Stevie-Ray]

OK guys, here goes: true story of the first time I ever "cleared" my house. About 25 years ago, I heard something fall over? Drop? Whatever, downstairs. Thinking the cat, of course, I got up and went to see, and cry over what he broke. I was horrified to see him staring at the door to the basement. Another sound, this time a rustling before something else dropped. Silence. Beads of sweat started on my forehead as I quickly opened the door, armed with my RST-6. (Don't laugh; it was all I had) As the door opened, another sound, this time indescribable, emanated from the dank recesses below. I started barking orders to the unseen predatory creature that had invaded my humble abode. Another rustling sound from a different area of the cellar. Another command, another sound. Wait a minute, I turned the lights on and another rustling, then a crashing sound. OK, so this is a real dumbass if it's a person, so I ventured down the steps and started checking for some moron that had somehow gotten himself so tangled up in my basement, he was going to welcome me just to set him free enough to go to jail. The cowardly cat stayed up on the landing steps, peering around the corner. One side clear from the steps, so I hit the bottom and spun to the other just in time to see a huge Pterodactyl coming straight for my face. I screamed in horror.

Well, OK so it wasn't exactly a Pterodactyl. But Grackles look a lot bigger when they're in your house.:D

[skifast]

I believe that SWAT teams use flashbangs in addition to bulletproof gear to clear rooms.

A Marine told me they clear rooms by throwing in grenades and then follow by shooting any survivors.

The average homeowner can do neither.

[Ginger]

Is there some kind of computer program you can feed your floorplan and location of windows, doors, children etc. into which will then generate probabilities for different scenarios?

[Slopemeno]

and the answer is....infinite.

[SmithMP]

My gun is equipped with a laser light combo so i can clear anything with one hand free at all times i love it also used by the marines and attaches to any universal rail bar and easily comes off and on

[STLRN]

I would avoid clearing if possible. I have clearing hundreds if not thousands of building over the years. Even when able to use grenades, flash bangs, various breaching methods, you still take causalities. We were allot more skilled than they guys we were going after, but in going into a room with someone wanting you dead, skill is only a part of the equation. Even with the best TTPs the person assaulting is putting themselves at risk, and if you lack the ability to flood the room, chances are you will get shot.

[Kline605]

I am not going to address the clear or not to clear issue. I have been trained by the military, law enforcement, and civilian trainers, and believe that the question will be answered by each individual situation.

I have use both hand held lights and weapon mounted lights and believe they both are better options than not having one. I will argue the fact that a weapon mounted light is a bad idea becuase it may cause you to shoot an inocent subject.

I would argue that these tragic incidents are caused by the shooter not following one of the four major gun handeling rules that most of us have been taught since we first started attending training. Keep your finger off of the trigger and on the frame until you have identified the target and decided to shoot.

Just my opinion

[Kline605]

Sorry about the spelling, long night at work.

[csmsss]

I'm just seeing this thread for the first time, and haven't read its entirety, so will not comment upon anyone else's remarks, but it's always been my opinion that mounting a flashlight or laser system to one's firearm provides your adversary with an excellent means of identifying, tracking and targeting you long before you were able to identify and target him.

[Creature]

You really should read the whole post...