SxS question

[johnny gitcher]

can someone please explain to me how a single versus double trigger works, and advantages/disadvantages of both on a SxS shotgun?

thanks...

J

[darkgael]

That's a good question but not an easy one to answer. There is a good explanation of different single trigger mechanisms in Michael McIntosh's "Shotgun Technicana". There are many different designs - over 100 for just mechanical single triggers for multi barrel guns. And then there are the "inertia-shift" single triggers.
Basically, there are two hammers and two sears but only one trigger. A selector lines the trigger blade up with a sear. When the gun is fired, a spring moves the blade into contact with the second sear (from McIntosh). This is oversimplified because the trigger actually gets pulled three times for two firings (too much to explain - the involuntary trigger pull) the second, involuntary, pull moves the blade to a middle position and the third actually fires the second barrel.
W.W. Greener came up with the "inertia-shift" system to accomplish the blade shift from sear to sear and to avoid both barrels firing at once (or nearly so). It involves a pendulum-like bob to shift the mechanism and avoid double firing.
Double triggers have two separate mechanisms - two trigger groups. Double triggers do not have to be selected and can be fired in any order.
I apologize for any inaccuracies but this is a quick and dirty explanation.
The advantage of the double trigger is that the shooter can shoot the barrels in any order to match conditions. Usually one of the barrels is choked tighter for longer shots. Maybe a bird jumps up long to begin with.
The big disadvantage (and not much of one IMHO) is that you have to remember to move your trigger finger to the second trigger.
The advantage of the single trigger is that you just pull it twice and the barrels fire in the order selected.
The down side is that you are stuck with that choice - it is difficult to reselect when a grouse has just jumped up a bit too far away for that IC barrel.
Pete

[johnny gitcher]

thanks - seems kinda complicated - a double trigger sounds more appealing by description...i could be more specific - i'm thinking in terms of the stoeger uplander...

[zippy13]

What you're going to do with the gun helps determine the type of trigger(s) you may want. Much time and money was spent developing single trigger double guns because they are generally seen as a definite advantage over double triggers. You get what you pay for.
FYI: One reason there are so many types of single trigger configurations is to avoid patent infringement.

[Laz]

I'm thinking about a 26" basic Uplander also and have a Spartan (Baikal) 28" field gun. Seems to me that for lower-priced SxSs, the double-trigger is simpler, more reliable and a better choice. I like the redundant system, two single-shot shotguns on one stock and I like the ability to instantly choose which choke to use first. And, even in bargain guns, double-triggers are cheaper. Zippy is right, you get what you pay for.

[darkgael]

"And, even in bargain guns, double-triggers are cheaper."
Cheaper to manufacture? I wonder. I'm not sure that that is always the case.
(Double triggers are pretty much all you find on the high end guns from Holland and Holland, Purdy, at least on their SXSs.)
Pete

[Dave McC]

I've had both. The Beretta O/U I use for clays has a single trigger and works well for when we know what the targets are going to do.

The dual triggers, with some use, are lightning fast to pick the right barrel when birds get up.

My guess, 50 rounds with either will get you used to it.

[TheManHimself]

Double triggers also have the advantage of redundancy. One of the reasons big-bore double rifles with double triggers were preferred in the heyday of ivory hunting is because if one trigger group fails, you have an immediate backup. Doubt you'll ever have to worry about stopping a charging duck :D but unlikely as it may be, a mechanical failure can still ruin a hunting trip if you don't have a backup gun.

[johnny gitcher]

thanks for your thoughts.

[BigJimP]

On the newer guns that I shoot - all O/U's - I think the single trigger system is superior.

On a Browning O/U - in the field - the gun is on safe, held at a ready position - my thumb is on the barrel selector/safety selector on top of the pistol grip. As I hold the gun at the ready ( that switch is my safety ) but while the gun is on safe ( I know if I click it to the right, the bottom barrel fires first - if I click it left, the top barrel fires first - and as I see a bird rise, I identify my target, select my barrel to shoot first - if I have 2 different chokes in the gun - then I click the the same selector forward and take it off safety - raise the gun and execute my shot ( and pull the trigger for the 2nd barrel if I need to ).

Now I know other mfg's have different setups for the barrel selector / safety - maybe that's why I like the Browning O/U's - but to me its a simple, easy to use system - and I don't fumble around for a 2nd trigger. I think the single trigger system is also easier to use when wearing heavy gloves ( more room in trigger guard / I can feel the safety/barrel selector switch on top easily ).

But when I hunt over dogs - the birds are typically held close - so often I hunt with the same chokes in both barrels. If birds are flushing further out - I just stop a minute, and screw in different chokes.

But that fluid second or so - that it takes me to identify a target, select a barrel, take the gun off safe - is a real natural move ( not that letting my finger find a front or rear trigger wouldn't be ) .... but I like the single trigger system.

[darkgael]

That Browning system sounds very nice. Is that the way all Browning O/Us are made? One O/U that I have, a Weatherby (SKB) has the selector on the trigger. Not as convenient, especially with gloves on. The other is an old Savage double trigger.
Pete

[BigJimP]

I have several Browning O/U's and they're all the same - but all those guns are new in the last 25 years.

I don't know about the Browning SXS's - I don't own one ( the stock dimensions on the SXS's are way too short and have way too much drop for me - so I stay away from SXS's in general ). Honestly, I think the O/U is a superior double barrel gun to the SXS - because of the single sight plane on the O/U primarily.

[hogdogs]

Isn't there also a design or 3 that the front trigger is one barrel but if it is not fired first the second trigger fires both barrels...
Brent

[BigJimP]

I hope not ( a gun designed to double ).... It reminds me of a dumb ass that bought a 10ga and his head bounced off the frozen tundra ...).

[Laz]

(Double triggers are pretty much all you find on the high end guns from Holland and Holland, Purdy, at least on their SXSs.)

Good point, Darkgael. I suspect though that in the high end guns, a lot of other factors are more price relevant than single or double trigger. I also suspect that tradition plays a large role in such shotguns. LOL, I don't look at them often enough to be sure. I'm part of the lower-end target market.

[zippy13]

Isn't there also a design or 3 that the front trigger is one barrel but if it is not fired first the second trigger fires both barrels...
Brent
Double triggers are typically meant to be fired by one finger moving from trigger to trigger. There's always some newbie (or fool) who thinks they'll fire with a finger on each trigger. What frequently results is a very quick bump/fan fire, Ba-Boom! For felt recoil, it might as well be a true double. :eek:

[darkgael]

BigJim: "the single sight plane on the O/U primarily." I've read that idea repeatedly in posts on different sites. I have not found the sight plane an issue one way or the other. I learned to shoot "Churchill" style with my eye on the bird and the barrel only in peripheral. So, the sight plane is not a factor. but gun fit sure is.
I've also read that we are primarily a nation of riflemen and that the O/U appeals to many of us because it is more rifleliike. I wonder. My favorite SG is an old Parker SXS.
Pete

Pete

[zippy13]

darkgael
Hi Pete,
Interesting observation about us being a nation of rifleman and therefore favoring the more rifle-like O/U. It may have some merit and explain the popularity of the M500s and R870s. Theories aside, I think you'll have to agree, typically, target shooters have higher scores with O/U than with SxS. And, I don't think it's all about us favoring rifles.

The total "sight picture" of an SxS is significantly different from that of an O/U. We're all aware of the three planes presented by the SxS (two barrels and a center rib) and the O/U is commonly referred to as having a single sight plane. Yes, you're correct, good shooters are seeing the target, not the gun. Better shooters are seeing the lead in front of the target, not the target. Consistently seeing the lead is what turns little clays into big clouds. This applies to SxS and O/U configurations.

I believe O/Us primarily perform better than SxSs because of faster target acquisition. If you're like me, before you can see your lead, you have to see the target. But, if you're shooting an SxS there's more stuff out there to block your initial view of the target. And, that's where the O/U has a clear advantage over the SxS, with the "single plane" you acquire the target sooner. To take this early acquisition advantage even further, there's the common practice of raising the rib of the O/U for a less obstructed view.

There are other less discussed differences:

Regulation (basic barrel alignment)
Double guns don't have parallel barrels, they are "regulated" (aimed) to cross at a point in space. O/U's are regulated vertically and SxS's are regulated horizontally. When not shooting at the regulated distance: With SxS's, this means the barrels don't have the same lead, with O/U's it's a slight difference in elevation. The latter seems to give better scores.

Recoil and eccentricity. Pete, back in October we talked about vitessep's sighting-in technique and the topic of eccentricity came up...
about SxS lateral eccentricity

Zippy: "Double guns (SxS's) have a lateral eccentricity that's a component of the recoil dynamics."
Ok. You've piqued my interest but you are gonna have to say that in simpler terms. would you rephrase that for a simple soul?
Thanks.
Pete
Okay, Pete, I'll give it a go...

Recoil keeps reminding us, when a firearm discharges the laws of physics come into play. Action and reaction -- applied forces and resistive forces. The applied force is the easy part (it's covered in a topic we know as internal ballistics) since it acts in-line with the barrel. However, the resistive forces are not so simple. With a typical stance (no barrels between the toes) the hands, cheek and shoulder each provide components of the resistive force. Shooters of different sizes and weights will distribute the individual resistive components differently -- so will different stock dimensions. To keep the ghost of Sir Issac Newton happy, the combination of the resistive forces will equal the applied force. If the combination of all the restive force components is also in-line with the bore, then the motion under recoil will be straight back and forth (perfect reciprocation). Yet, we're all aware that this isn't the case, the motion is back and upward... why?

Look at a typical rifle, or shotgun, and its shape tells you that the center of the reactive forces is below the barrel's axis. This dimensional difference is known as vertical eccentricity. When opposing forces are eccentric, a rotational force, known as a couple is created. It's this couple that causes the barrel lift we're all familiar with.

The greater this vertical eccentricity, the more the muzzle will rise. This is why it's important when shooting an O/U that the lower barrel be shot first. It has lesser eccentricity than the upper barrel. So, it lifts less and you get on your second target quicker than if you shot the upper barrel first.

A benefit of SxS geometry is that both barrels have the same vertical eccentricity. So lift is the same for either barrel -- an advantage over the O/U configuration. However, the SxS brings in another factor: lateral, or horizontal eccentricity. For the sake of discussion, let's assume the center of the resistive forces is in line with the SxS's center rib. So, now we've added a lateral component to the couple. Since the lateral eccentricity is less than the vertical, you might not notice the left or right components of barrel lift. And, since you're usually swinging a shotgun, the lateral part becomes almost inconsequential.

In reality, SxS shooter's resistive forces may not be centered on the rib, and will change each time the gun is mounted. If the resistive forces are centered behind the right barrel, then only the left will have a lateral component to the lifting couple. In this condition, the right barrel will lift without a horizontal component, and the left's horizontal component will double. Don't worry, in the greater scheme of things, these SxS lateral forces are minor, won't change your shooting style, but should be understood.

Remember what vitesse9 said about his off-hand testing: "...the right bbl is dead on on elevation and about 2 inches right on windage. The left bbl is about 1 inch high in elevation and about two inches left in windage." How can we determine what might be due to an inconsistent mount? That's why I said: When evaluating your off-hand testing, don't forget: Double guns (SxS's) have a lateral eccentricity that's a component of the recoil dynamics. To test how the gun shoots, you really need a more uniform resistive force obtainable only with a rest.
The average field shooter may not be aware of the consequences of shooting an SxS instead of an O/U. However, when you're shooting thousands of competition targets per year the benefits of the O/U become apparent.
Of course, your actual mileage may very. :)
Repeat

[zippy13]

BigJimP aka TundraGuy

Oops... Looks like we drifted a little off topic. Single triggers became single sighting planes. Perhaps, in the best traditions of the USCG, you can get us back on course. We both shoot better with O/Us, but I won't be disappointed it there's a gun case shaped package from Purdey under the Christmas tree. :D

[darkgael]

I could only imagine.
Pete

[BigJimP]

You're right Zippy - an old Purdy would be a very nice gift and somehow, I would make it fit...

or maybe one of the new Essencia's

http://www.halkguns.com/detail.cfm?g_ID=19

But like I said another day, its not the gun that's so expensive - its the new Lexus SC 430 I'd have to buy for my wife to go with it. Its all about the accessories....

[hogdogs]

BJP, a lexus is a lame pretentious way to haul a "shotty" no matter the brand... A $1,000 4X4 with extended cab is a gun toter...:D
Brent

[fisherman66]

A $1,000 4X4 with extended cab is a gun toter...

Man oh man, I'd really be a redneck if I could find 4X4s for a grand.

[hogdogs]

For an extra grand you can have my runnin' F-150 4X4 with cold A/C...
Brent

[BigJimP]

Hey, I grew up in NorthWestern Montana - I know red neck .... / where a double date means you and your buddy - and your dogs ....

( but I like those heated leather seats, the GPS system, the Mark Levinson stereo system, a nice hot latte ....). She'd probably let me take it to the gun club ....if I asked nice ...(but like all women, she's mean, so I don't know...).

[hogdogs]

I eat red beans and rice or chili the night before if I anticipate the need for heated seats...:o
Tires screaming and the knocking valves make such a great sound a stereo would ruin that!

Brent

[fisherman66]

You can wear those fancy field pants to hepa filter the heated air too.

[zippy13]

BigJimP
Congratulations on your 2,000th posting!
Ya think a new Essencia would make Hal happy, too?

[BigJimP]

Thanks Zippy,

I honestly hadn't noticed (2,000 probably means I spend too much time bsing on here .. oh well ).

I don't care about Hal ....but I think he'd be happy to cash my check. I understand Hal was quite a skeet shooter " in his day "...maybe still is, I don't know him personally.

[zippy13]

I don't care about Hal ....but I think he'd be happy to cash my check. I understand Hal was quite a skeet shooter " in his day "...maybe still is, I don't know him personally.
I met him briefly about 22-years ago. He was the national president of NSSA at the time. In San Diego on business, he dropped in at the club at NavAirSta North Island during a tournament weekend. Seemed like a nice enough guy. At one time he had the exclusive US rights to Krieghoffs, or perhaps just the K-32s.

[Dave McC]

They do not offer it now, but at one time Browning's Superposed had a two trigger option. If you pulled the front trigger, the bottom barrel fired and then the top with a second pull on that trigger. If you used the rear trigger, the top barrel fired first, then the bottom.

That seems the best of both worlds.

[oneounceload]

They do not offer it now, but at one time Browning's Superposed had a two trigger option. If you pulled the front trigger, the bottom barrel fired and then the top with a second pull on that trigger. If you used the rear trigger, the top barrel fired first, then the bottom.

I have a friend who has one - a Belgian swan neck O/U with two triggers - it's his pheasant gun - nice looking