So... you just got your first "tacti-cool" shotgun huh?

[Creeper]

I'm bored right now... snow on the ground, cold as hell in the shop and not much to do, so I decided to write what I call a "cautionary tale" for new and potential tactical shotgun owners.

Is any of this gospel? Nope... just opinion based on experience and observation. Take it for what it's worth... and as it's on an interwebnet forum and costs nothing, it's worth nothing but 5 minutes of your time to read.

There seems to be a substantial upswing in the sales of everything tactical, military, semi-automatic and high capacity. In other words, if it's black and looks like it came out of "Half Life 2"... it's really flying off the shelves.
The dreaded "Obama Factor" no doubt. :rolleyes:

Tactical shotguns for civilians... are a mixed bag.
The more exceedingly tactical they are, the less multi-functional, the less generally useful and less frequently used they seem to become. This last facet of tactical shotgun ownership is the worst possible aspect, as it creates a large group of people that don't really know how to use the gun they own.
If you're a 3-gun competitor, or a cop, or military, you may be the only true exceptions... especially the rabid 3-gun guy, who will send more pellets downrange in a year than many will do in a lifetime.

So, what does "Joe Average gun doode" do with a tactical shotgun... I mean besides set it next to your nightstand or behind a door and forget about it?

For most... accessorization seems to be a popular pastime. Another term for it is "farklization"... a farkle being a thing which you don't necessarily need, but you've rationalized it's value sufficiently that you must have it.
For some... it's all about how evil their guns look in pictures they post in forums. :rolleyes:

What farkles are good... and what farkles are mall ninja useless, you may ask? That's a good question, and depending on how rational and objective you can be, there are good and near useless tactical shotgun accessories.

You could search for and read every post by objective and rational thinkers like Scattergun Bob (this post in particular (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320877&highlight=tactical+shotgun)), DaveMc, Super Dave and others, find the gems that directly correlate to tactical shotguns, and apply that information to your particular weapon... or, you can wing it, based on what you've seen in movies and video games.
The former is time consuming (but perhaps a worthwhile project), the latter could be expensive, and you'd end up with a photogenic, "tacti-cool" 13 pound shotgun that is less useful than if you'd left it completely alone.

A shotgun, like any gun, is a tool. Each tool has a purpose, and unless you've been in a few fights that involved a shotgun, you may not know that modifying a tool can have "unintended circumstances" which will have a negative effect on the function of the tool.

Lets look at some of the not bad tactical shotgun "accessories".

The sling.
Although this should be the first, and is possibly the only thing that is a truly useful, all purpose shotgun accessory... surprisingly, it's low on many people's list of things to buy.

A shotgun, when not actually in use, is a cumbersome device. A sling allows you to use your hands. Being able to use your hands allows you to do many useful things... like open and close doors, turn lights on and off, manipulate other tools like flashlights and handguns, and reload your shotgun more easily.
There are many sling manufacturers and we all have our favorites... however, if you spend more than $40 for a sling, you probably spent too much.
Specter, Wilderness and Urban ERT are some of the more popular ones... buy one if you don't have one already. If you do have one, fit it correctly and practice it's use as a tactical tool.

The magazine extension.
Capacity... that's what it's all about ain't it? Most Tactical shotguns have an 18.5" barrel. That means that unless you want a magazine tube to extend out (way) past the end of the barrel, rendering your gun less useful in close environs, your maximum capacity is around 8-9 rounds of 2.75" shells.
Magazine extensions run between $45 and $100. The quality of the magazine on a shotgun is just as important as that of a handgun... if it's poor quality and causes your shotgun to jam, all those extra shells aren't going to do you much good.
Do you know how to clear a jam on your shotgun? If not, put it real high on your list of things to learn well.

If you must have a extended mag tube... buy a good one and stay away from the not so good ones. Nordic, DMW and SureCycle make the best... none cheap, but I've never heard of one causing a jam or flying apart.

Before you buy a extended tube, consider this. Mag tubes (when loaded) add weight and affect the "swing" of a shotgun. Do you want an extra 1-2 lbs... do you want a shotgun where being able to move it quickly is important? Temper your desire for capacity with practical logic.
The one rational exception to this might be the aforementioned 3-gun competitor who must have X capacity to be competitive.

Shell carriers.
Back to capacity again. I don't think shell carriers that hang off the receiver or attach to the butt-stock are as bad an idea as extended magazine tubes that stick way out past the muzzle. Why, because adding weight to the center or rear of the gun does little to create the "overswing" or pendulum effect that occurs with long extended mag tubes.
With some guns, a buttstock shell carrier actually will improve balance.

If you have an extended mag tube (that doesn't extend past the muzzle) and a receiver mounted shell carrier... potentially, you can have as many as 17 shells in or on the gun. Add a buttstock carrier and you can get well over 20.
That should do the trick right? If not, you may really need to stop playing "Metal Gear Solid"... it's affecting your concept of reality.
Mesa Tactical make the best hard shell carriers.

Shell carrier/bandoleer/sling things make you look just like Poncho Villa... and are a complete pain in the ass to use when you're in a hurry. Get a shell carrier(s), get a sling... don't try and combine the two.

Sights.
Some supposed "tactical" shotguns come with pretty crappy sights.
Under stress, the bigger, easier to see and simpler to align sights are the best. For many, this means large ghost ring sights.
Sights are a personal thing and may be affected by the quality of ones eyesight and even physical build, so I'm not going to go out on a limb and recommend specific brands or types... just remember that as cool as it may look to shoot a shotgun from the hip, they are much more accurate when you use the sights, so get good ones that allow rapid target acquisition in all types of light.

Optics.
This tends to go with sights. I'm not a big fan of optics on a tactical scattergun... a slug gun sure, but magnifying optics on a gun where the typical max range is less than 30 yards... not so much.
The other type of optic is the red dot or holographic sight. No magnification (usually), but rather a bright red (or maybe green) dot or triangle that subtends your target by X value.
For some people with eye issues, the red dot/holo sight brings an entirely new quality to their ability to hit the target... which is a good thing, and the reason why I can't say anything negative about them.
Just remember that cheek-weld and optical alignment are critical to use and accuracy... any add-on optic should be very close to the original open sight alignment, or you may have problems with holding the gun and seeing the target at the same time.

Lights.
To add lights, you usually need a mount, and sometimes a mount for the mount... and perhaps even a extended mag tube to put the mount for the mount on. Starts to add up don't it?
I got nothing against gun mounted lights... especially on a dedicated HD gun, because a good number of HD situations occur at night.

Because you never know when a light can be a tactical advantage or disadvantage, lights that are easy to turn on and off without removing your hand from the forend are the best ones to consider, meaning that Surefire forend lights ($$$) with built-in controls are a good choice... if they make one for your gun.
The lights that come with remote switches would be a close second, or maybe a better way to go... again, depending on the gun. Just make sure the switch cable, if there is one, is securely attached to the gun and more or less snag-proof.

Farkles of dubious value.

Compensators/Muzzle Breaks.
If you've read up on shotgun ballistics, you know that comps, breaks and ported choke tubes are of limited to no value. Simple as that. If you must have one, Royal Arms has the best options I've found.
Don't confuse comps and breaks with breaching stand-offs. Breaching stand-offs are a application specific device used by police and military for entry purposes and are not sold as a recoil reducers/muzzle rise reducers.
Saying all that, comps and breaching stand-offs look cooler than all get out, and that would be the most honest reason to buy one... 'cause they look cool. Royal arms and Vang Comp are the two makers that come to mind.

Pistol grip only shotgun stocks.
Other than for an military/LE entry gun, or a bank robber hiding a shotgun under an overcoat... this is the dumbest accessory there is, IMO. It makes shooting from the hip a virtual requirement, so accuracy and gun control go out the window.

Thats about it for generic tactical shotgun accessories. There are lots of brand and model specific accessories intended to correct or upgrade a stock guns short comings that I won't go into.

Everything you buy effects the function of your gun and your interaction with it.
A tactical shotgun is designed to be used quickly and effectively in a relatively closed environment under stress... anything that reduces that effectiveness may get you and/or your loved ones hurt, or worse.

The very best accessory you can buy?
That would be practice... lots and lots of practice, on a regular basis.
Until the operation of the gun you may use to defend your life is second nature and total muscle memory... under the worst conditions and pressures.

The next time you're looking on-line and think... "Hey, that pistol grip/laser/illuminator/battering ram/flare launcher/espresso maker would sure look bitchin' on my shotgun"... instead, spend the money on ammo, practice and perhaps even professional training. It doesn't look as cool in photos, but it might save your life.

C

[johnnyeastside]

Thanks, from a new gun owner. I've learned these lessons in the motorcycle industry. Anything that doesn't make the bike stop or go is essentially a "farkle" and there is big industry in chrome covers that cover chrome covers. I say "paint it flat black and ride the f*** out of it" which translates to practice, practice, practice. But, for those that want to spend thousands on bolt on junk to look cool, my mortgage company thanks you.
When I first started looking into buying my first gun, I immediately saw that correlation.
Now, having a gun that you like will make you more likely to use it more, so I won't feel guilty that I think my gun is slick, however anything I put on it better pay its own way. I'm sure I will try some stuff that doesn't work out, but most of us have to go through some of that.
And, by the way, I haven't been considering a sling, but you did get me thinking about it. The reason I bought the gun was for HD, but I plan to go to fields with friends as much as I can to throw clays.

[Cold_DeadHands]

So, what does "Joe Average gun doode" do with a tactical shotgun... I mean besides set it next to your nightstand or behind a door and forget about it?
Take it and 1 or 2 boxes of shells into the woods and shoot an trespassing milk jug till there's nothing leftover? :D

[USA123456789]

IT TOOK ME LONGER THAN 5 MINUTES TO READ.

Your article was great. Thanx i needed some advice on the tactical/HD gun i just bought it.:)

[Cerick]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e45/dutchmaster151/Picture108-1.jpg

This is my shotgun. It IS a tactical shotgun. Even says so in its name. Creeper, I agree with some of what you say, and some of it I don't agree with. First off, the thing I disagree with most is your comment about how people buying tactical shoguns creates a "large group of people who dont really know how to use the gun they own." Just because its "Tacti-cool" doesn't mean a large percentage of its owners are amatures. I'm sure there plenty of people with glocks, ak's, or other commonly used guns in movies and films that buy them for looks. Part of the reason I bought mine is because I like the way it looks.

With that said, i'm sure there are plenty of people out there who own sti's, Krieghoffs, and other expensive or rare guns that dont know how to use them. I bought my 870 knowing that its possibilities for use are almost endless. I already own a 20ga youth express that ive had since I was 12. There are a couple of reasons I picked this particular shogun. I liked the short stock on my youth express, and the tactical speedfeed stock on this gun is about the same length. The 18" barrel is great for close quarters, and since I wont be goose or duck hunting, its a perfect size for me. I can use it for small game or deer also. A 26" or 28" barrel would be good for all sorts of hunting, but not close quarters. This shotgun over other similar tactical 870's has a choked barrel, instead of a fixed IC barrel. I have bought 3 additional chokes for it since buying the gun, the chokes being IC, modified, and full, to add to the cylinder bore choke the gun came with. I believe the tactical or police shotguns were also made with higher quality parts then the express line, making it more reliable.

You criticized the magazine tube extension for its length and weight. The length on my mag tube extension is equal to the length of the barrel, and the weight for me isnt an issue. Also for HD or for bringing it into bear country, the extra rounds could save your life. The breaching choke doesn't seem to reduce any recoil, even though it was advertised as so. It could be useful, although I dont think i'll be breaching doors anytime soon. The big plus for that, again is the choked barrel.

I think that covers what I dont agree with, now for what I do or somewhat do agree with. Pistol grip. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324551
That is a link to the pictures of the different setups I have for my gun. I put the pistol grip on and bought it because I admitantly thought it was cool, and might be great for HD. I haven't even fired it with the pistol grip on, but holding it was enough to make me realize it was very awkward to hold and probably more so to fire. The only time i can see wanting to use this is going hiking where the possibility of seeing bear is there, and attaching my shogun to my hiking pack. It would be lighter and more compact, therefore better to carry.

I also purchased a mesa tactical 6 shot, reciver mount shell holder. Bought it because it looks cool, and the extra rounds close by could be important in a defense situation. After installing it, It made the reciever feel too bulky, and when I shouldered the gun to shoot, the extra shells in my sight annoyed the crap out of me. I took it off, and the only reason I could see using it again is also for hiking, because I wouldn't have the extra 4 shells in the speed feed stock.

I have a Streamlight TLR-2 on one of my pistols, although I shoot worse with the laser, and the light could potentially give your position away, although it can help you safely identify your target. The lasers may be good, I just might not have enough practice with them. Todd Jarret has great things to say about lasers, but that might just be Crimson Traces money talking. I thought about putting the tlr-2 on my Shotgun, but haven't decided yet.

Optics wise, I think thats all preference. I have the red dot on the slug barrel, which I want to replace with a regular scope. A red dot for defense or turkey might be good, but again I think thats all preference.

I use the sling when deer hunting, and thats it.

I also play ALOT of videogames. everything from halo type games, to the more realistic Rainbow Six series of games. I do know the difference between reality, and games though.

I have a friend that bought an 870 express combo, with 28" smoothbore, vent rib barrel, and slug barrel for hunting, and he almost never uses it. I use my shotgun on a weekly or bi-weekly basis to either hunt, or to just have fun at the range. While there are people who buy spas 12's because they look like the the ultimate shtf gun and dont know how to operate the safety on it, just because you own one, doesn't automatically place you in that catagory. I know you, creeper, explained that right off the bat, but the way some of the things you said were read, may have seemed a bit, well insulting to some of us. I like tactical stuff. I do see a place for some of it, while also seeing some other accessories as a bit "useless." I just dont want to be thought of as a person that says " yo look at my shotty, I could take out mad people with this thing haha. Double pistol grip, red dot, light, mag tube extension, sling, shot shell holder, heatsheild, tac rail and all."

oh and sorry for such a long post :D

[scorpion_tyr]

Nice article. I agree 100%. Especially about the extra shell holder. The shotgun is a very versital weapon capable of firing many different loads so why not keep the most useful for your situation in the tube and 5 on the stock that can take care of things you are less likely to, but still might see. For example I keep 5 rounds of 00BK in the tube and 5 HP Slugs on the stock. My reasoning for this is because I actually and unfortunately do live in a bad part of town and my biggest threat area is my driveway.

[Mike U.]

One thing you didn't mention that should be added is a "Heat Shield". I bought one purely for the ghost ring sights that were on it. Right next to useless. All it did was add weight, add yet another thing that might get snagged in an emergency and otherwise was about as useless as a chastity belt for a Catholic Nun.

[alloy]

Farkles...........:) just spilt some coffee.

my regular woods hunting shotgun works fine.

[Toddd]

I totally agree, tactical garbage is getting way to popular and out of control. bunch of my buddies think its cool that their mossy looks like some gun arnold would use to storm an island, but its pointless. the extent of my 500 setup is a 28" ported barrel for trap/hunting, an 18.5" for storage and HD reasons (not likely to get used for that purpose but looks damn good and i dont really need to aim if i wanna dust some skeet) Other than that i got a homemade sling and a 5 shell band for my stock. both work great (and dirt cheap) and its nice having your pockets free of those rarely used emergency shells

[hogdogs]

I show off the kids in public...
But for this thread I will do so...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/caughthog/P1011035.jpg
what in that pile looks "tactical" or "assault-ish"?
The 20 gauge (short pump gun) did come from mossberg with a PG but it has since been swapped out for the rear stock from the long Mossberg since the 18 inch 20 is my HD gun. The newer gun just has to wear the Elmer's Glued beater wood stock. BTW, In my use of the term... each of these weapons has a "tactical" time and place to be used on some sort of critter...
Brent

[.45 COLT]

I pretty much don't care what a person does to his shotgun (except call it a "Shotty" or a "Remmie" - that irritates me:mad:), but I hope that they put as much thought into what they put in the gun as they did into what they put on it. Rhodesian Jungle Ammo, Dragon's Breath or Pit Bull may sound "cool", but have little practical purpose.

Good article.

DC

[johnbt]

"Muzzle Breaks"

I don't know a thing about tactical shotguns, but if your muzzle breaks you should get it fixed. Maybe you meant muzzle brake. ;)

John

P.S. - An experienced man, although I don't know if he was a tactical man, once told me that a sling is just one more thing for an assailant to grab when trying to gain control you or your shotgun.

John

[BigJimP]

Creeper, Interesting perspective, I agree with you.

I ran into a "Tacti-Cool" guy at one of my local gun stores yesterday - going on and on about AR's and Shotguns - and all the crap you can strap, tape and bolt to them ...and the junk that spues out of that guys mouth is too much to take. When he finally left, I asked the shop owner if he's always like that - and he rolls his eyes and says, yes .... but he's good for business because he is always trading something in, and buying something else... It made me laugh.

Fortunately we do have quite a few Tactical experienced guys on here like ScattergunBob, Dave Mc ( and others )....to lend some common sense to the discussion / and even though I'm not into Tactical rifles or shotguns - I enjoy their counsel to people that legitimately ask how to properly equip a Fighting Weapon.

[zippy13]

Creeper, Interesting perspective, I agree with you.

+1

[oneounceload]

my "tactical weapon is an old Mossberg 500, PGO removed and replaced by a standard stock - the only accessory is the 5-shot "side saddle". sits in the closet, though, my 357 is on the nightstand

The only gun worse for accessories is the AR platform:barf:

[Creeper]

A wonderful assortment of responses, viewpoints and opinions... all valid from the writers perspective.


johnnyeastside... You and I may know each other. I worked in the motorcycle industry for 35 years. Hell, I kinda still do. :p

Cold_DeadHands... If everyone would do that at least once a month... that'd be great. I know your the kind of guy that after killing all those miscreant milk jugs, you pick them up, take them home and give them a proper burial in your trash bin... yes? :D

USA123456789... I apologize on the time it took to read. 5 minutes was a wild-ass-guess on my part. Glad you enjoyed it.

Cerick... My comments were based on relatively new shotgun owners and buyers. Obviously, not directed at someone with experience. Never the less, your points are all valid and well received. :)

scorpion_tyr... It's tough to balance practicality and functionality with the desire to carry an adequate supply of ammo for your needs. Compromise... all compromise.

Mike U.... Completely forgot about heat shields. The ones that actually came on the old Winchester trench guns were functional. The ones they sell today are pretty much useless junk aren't they? :rolleyes:

alloy... Farkles is a term I first heard in the motorcycle biz. Just as johnnyeastside alluded to... "if it don't go, chrome it" is the mentality.
"Beware the man with only one gun... for they know how to use it"

Toddd... A shotgunner for all seasons and reasons. The quote in alloy's line applies to you as well.

hogdogs... a nice selection of standard weapons, all well used and abused, sufficient to know that none are safe queens. Good on ya'.

.45 COLT... Ah, ammo. That's a whole 'nother bag of cats for another time. Perhaps you should write a little tale about functional real world ammo vs. 4th of July parade ammo.

johnbt... Ha ha ha... you know how you get in a mindset and can look right at something and still not see it for what it is? That's me and muzzle "break". I think I'll leave it just the way it is... keeps me humble to know that I can still make such and obvious mistake.
Regarding your comment on the sling... I suppose you can legitimately look at it from that perspective, but I think I'll hang on to my sling, for the reasons I listed. Thanks for your viewpoint.

BigJimP... I know the guy you speak of. There's one in almost every town and in every gun shop. As your gun dealer says, they are a good source of income. Nothing better for a gun shop (or motorcycle shop) than a stereotypical wannabe, sidewalk commando with money.
At least they're enthusiastic, and given enough time, they might even back down to a more thoughtful and considered level.


Thanks very much to all that responded. There are as many opinions on guns and their use as there are guns themselves. It doesn't matter a whit if you agree or disagree, only that you have a considerate and open mind to the views of others.
In every pile of poop... lies a grain of truth.

Cheers,
C

[alloy]

thats funny Creeper, i am sort of familiar with the motorcycle biz but thats a new one. but...the end result of a bunch of your farkles? a whooptie. (big wheel ghetto cruiser).

woods/truck gun...and my farkles...screw in chokes w/ brownells safety button, cause its all about safety with firearms.;) real nice article, as usual from the shotgun pros here. too much of a good thing is just too much of a good thing.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f54/bigassbike/farklemaster.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f54/bigassbike/farkle1.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f54/bigassbike/farkle2.jpg

[fisherman66]

What, no mention of farkle ammo? The bolos, rubber balls, bean bags and speary things. Funny stuff.

Pass the koolaid please.

[freakintoguns]

only tactical accessories i want for my 870 now are single point sling, and buttstock shell holder. had the pistol grip on it and a 3" high brass lsug changed that for me in a hurry. i agree witha lot of what you say too about shotguns and being over accessorized, think some people go why over board on ARs AKs and the such.

[Shawn Dodson]

Sling – I personally don’t like a sling, conventional two-point or any other, on a long gun used for home defense. IMO it gets in the way (something else to manage), may snag on protrusions, can knock over nick-nacks/lamps/other "stuff" as you maneuver around furnishings, and interferes with smooth transition from strong side mount to weak side, vice-versa, when cornering.

Pistol grip only shotgun stocks – I believe there is an awful lot of uninformed opinion based on lack of experience in using this weapon. Correctly used, the pistol grip is pressed against the side of the rib cage, underneath the pectoral muscle, just as one does when mounting a handgun in retention position. In fact, this mount can be used with any shotgun. I switch in and out of this mount frequently when clearing.

Intended for use in tight quarters, the pistol grip only butt stock, is very manageable and accurate for CQF, especially if one must negotiate an alcove-like doorway/passageway, created either by wall layout or placement of furnishings.

Despite these two disagreements, Creeper did a great job of presenting the pros and cons of various shotgun accessories!

[Cold_DeadHands]

Cold_DeadHands... If everyone would do that at least once a month... that'd be great. I know your the kind of guy that after killing all those miscreant milk jugs, you pick them up, take them home and give them a proper burial in your trash bin... yes?

Sure I do! I'm running out of Milk Jugs tho... was going to go out and shoot some more today but don't have any worthy targets at hand. Any suggestions?

[Creeper]

What, no mention of farkle ammo? The bolos, rubber balls, bean bags and speary things. Funny stuff.

Pass the koolaid please.

I use assorted buck and slugs mostly, with WalMart econo-ammo thrown in to keep costs down... so I know very little about the assorted "specialty ammo".
I did get shot in the butt with rock salt by a farmer back when I was a kid... but I don't think rock salt is much in vogue anymore. :D

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I, that has used some of the specialty ammo could write an objective treatise on the subject.

Mmmmmm, KoolAid. :p

C

[Creeper]

Sure I do! I'm running out of Milk Jugs tho... was going to go out and shoot some more today but don't have any worthy targets at hand. Any suggestions?

Not too many places in the woods to shoot around here... at least not legally. When I run out of milk jugs, I bring a box or two of White Flyer biodegradable clays and smoke them.

That, or start drinking more milk. :D

C

[Cold_DeadHands]

ahh...I see you are in Washington. I live in Texas on 10.5 Acres, can do what I want to on my property! :D

[Creeper]

Sling – I personally don’t like a sling, conventional two-point or any other, on a long gun used for home defense. IMO it gets in the way (something else to manage), may snag on protrusions, can knock over nick-nacks/lamps/other "stuff" as you maneuver around furnishings, and interferes with smooth transition from strong side mount to weak side, vice-versa, when cornering.

Pistol grip only shotgun stocks – I believe there is an awful lot of uninformed opinion based on lack of experience in using this weapon. Correctly used, the pistol grip is pressed against the side of the rib cage, underneath the pectoral muscle, just as one does when mounting a handgun in retention position.

Intended for use in tight quarters, the pistol grip only butt stock, is very manageable and accurate for CQF, especially if one must negotiate an alcove-like doorway/passageway, created either by wall layout or placement of furnishings.

Despite these two disagreements, Creeper did a great job of presenting the pros and cons of various shotgun accessories!

Hi Shawn,

I'd have to agree with both of your assessments. From your perspective, and to meet your needs, the points you raise are valid, and obviously sufficiently qualified to be well considered by anyone.

Practically anything you attach to a shotgun, or any gun, has some kind of compromise involved. It's more a matter sometimes of what set of compromises are you willing to trade off.

Physical condition, environment, training... the list could go on a bit, and every element of your situation creates unique circumstances with unique responses to that circumstance.

We'd all have to do the proverbial mile walk in each others shoes to better and fully understand our sometimes opposing points of view.

C

[Creeper]

Cold_DeadHands... I have but 1.8 acres... some of which is occupied by a house and shop. Also I have neighbors and a working dairy farm behind my property... so no shooting at home for me.

10.5... I'm jealous. :)

Speaking of shop... I need to go out, turn the heater on and see if I can get some work done.

Have a nice afternoon gents and ladies,
C

[Vergeltung]

I picked up a Mossberg 590 SP for an HD shotgun about a month and a half ago. I did put a sling on it. otherwise, it's fine as is. been to the range several times, and am practicing.

is that ok with you guys, or, do I have to take the sling off? :cool:

[Katrina Guy]

Well, I plan on buying a sling to put on my Persuader if that need were to arise again, a major event, a Katrina-where you may want to have your shotgun with you all the time...a worthwhile add on for everybody I think, to have on the side in case you find yourself in some sort of extended Wild West show. Example, crossing the street to check on or chit chat with your neigbor, a sling could come in handy not from a tactical standpoint but for a, yea I'd like my shotgun with me without actually carrying it the entire time, kind of thing.
Good point on slings somebody posted, to have on a shotgun does seem to make it easy to be grabbed, again I'm talking about putting one on under different circumstances.

[MrNiceGuy]

my shotgun has a heat shield, compensator, pistol grip, extra rounds, tactical light, and 3 laser lights set up in a triangle like the predator:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2337/7959962predatortargetia4.jpg


i'm the tacticoolest

[USA123456789]

Thats some cool beans there MR.NICEGUY

[Socrates]

OO buck, in a 6-7 pound gun, kicks WAY more then most people can handle.

If I told you to get a .458 Win mag for home defense, you'd say I was a nut, but, that's what a shotgun is, without the benefit of the velocity you get with a rifle...

[Slopemeno]

...and that's why you use the Federal low-recoil buckshot that patterns better.

[Socrates]

Why bother? I can practice at the range with my M44. The milsurp rounds tumble and do really nasty things in gello, and, have over a 100 years of dead bodies to prove the effectiveness of the 7.62 x 54R, with 1/4 the recoil of a shotgun.
Why bother?

[Dave McC]

Good thread. A coupla things....

Like Shawn, I do not want a sling on inside the house. Since we may need to go outside, sling capability isa very good thing. All the defensive shotguns here have QD studs installed. My slings are old style carry straps, not one points.

My HD 870 is accessorized like heck. I put it together in the early 80s and it's served me well.

However, I added each thing to fill a need. The peep sight improved slug accuracy. The mag extension did the same when properly clamped to the barrel and added two more shots at hand while adding weight to the front. The Side Saddle added more weight and ammo at hand.

And while I was bolting this stuff on, I was adding to the wear marks every few weeks.

I'm a different person now than in 1980. I doubt I'd set up a dedicated HD tool just the same. 9 lb shotguns do not handle quite as fast today as in days of yore. I'd leave the S/S off, having only 5 shots at hand( Empty chamber, mag full minus one round) doesn't make me break into a sweat.

I'd still insist on its clean, sub 4 lb trigger. Most shotguns can stand improvement there.

The best way to make a deadly tactical shotgun is give it a high round count. Anything you've put an ankle deep pile of hulls through is a good candidate for HD, be it a Mossberg, Savage,Ithaca, Winchester, Browning, Remington.........

[Howaido]

OO buck, in a 6-7 pound gun, kicks WAY more then most people can handle.

The knoxx specops is the real deal for recoil reduction. IMO, it makes a gun like the 870 a much more suitable choice for defense. Faster follow ups, able to fire from odd positions more readily, etc.

Greatly increases the overall effectiveness and takes some of the wind out of the sails of the "carbines are a better gun for HD" crowd, most of whom jump on the recoil thing right off. It helps even the playing field re. recoil, other differences aside.

I would say that my 870 and full power buck (my only choice in buck) with the specops recoils about the same as a .30-30, probably less as I can shoot it ALL DAY long with no ill effects.

[Cold_DeadHands]

what's recoil?

[hogdogs]

CDH, that is what you do to a rope after you use it...
Brent

[Cold_DeadHands]

:eek: :D

[TxShooter474]

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID

Probably the best advise I can give for a tactical shotgun. I carry a 870 Marine Magnum on a regular basis. The only two additions I have made or will make to this weapon is a sling and a shotshell carrier on the butstock.

Little to get snagged, little to break. Nothing to fail. My choice for the Marine Magnum was I work in a salt water enviroment and I wanted a gun to last a lifetime.

[Cerick]

Not saying i'm superman, but I can pretty easily fire 40 rounds of either 3" 00 buck or 3" slugs, all 12ga, and not be crying home to my mommy. Not saying it feels good, but the extra umph is part of the reason most of us bought a 12ga not a 20ga, right?

[Slopemeno]

...and you could shoot some low recoil 2.75" buckshot that much faster and more accurately.

[Dave McC]

Low recoil loads of any shot size from 00 to 9s is an incredible boon to Joe Shotgunner. Modern ammo is so much better than that of old that a 7/8 oz load of good make gives more pellets in the pattern than a 1 1/8 oz load of say, 1960.

And buck's average pattern spread is halved. Maybe more, I did little buck patterning back then.

One big advantage to the lighter loads is a shorter learning curve. The distance from brand new to competent has been shortened because we spend less time learning to handle the kick.

[Vergeltung]

yeah, I got a whole case of the low-recoil winchester 12-gauge 2 3/4" slugs for range work. gotta get good first!! :)

[ThreeStepsAhead]

Basically what I got from this article...

1. It's ok for me to have a pistol grip 590 because I am in the Army and know not to put any stupid crap on it. Bayonet lug? Useless...you buy the 590 for that 8+1.

2. I am ok with joe 6-pack putting dumb, heavy and useless stuff on his weapon because I will be able to draw faster then him.

3. Some of you have entirely too many shotguns for a practical purpose (raising small militia units excepted).

I'm pretty glad I'm apart of this forum!!! Let's go shoot-

[Cerick]

Did you just say too many guns? That makes me wanna :barf:

[Mike U.]

WOW! There's really such a thing as "too many guns"? :eek:

Hmmph! Who knew? :confused::D

[perpster]

1. It's ok for me to have a pistol grip 590 because I am in the Army and know not to put any stupid crap on it. Bayonet lug? Useless...you buy the 590 for that 8+1.
Actually, I kinda like the idea of the bayonet lug. Makes it a bit "dicier" for someone to fight for control of the front end. Downside is you can't put the Surefire light on without getting rid of the bayonet lug.:(

PS: You can use the fixed bayonet for opening all those Christmas presents without straining or reaching, or picking up litter in your yard.:D

[T. O'Heir]

"...Is any of this gospel?..." A pistol gripped only shotgun being the absolute most useless thing on Earth certainly is 'gospel'. For exactly the reasons you give.
There's no such thing as a 'tactical' anything though. 'Tactical' is a marketing term only. "Police" used to be the fashionable marketing term. The Mossberg 500 bead sighted, cylinder choked, 'Police riot guns', that took an M16 bayonet, we had in the shop, long ago, sold like excrement through a goose.
"...the reason most of us bought a 12ga not a 20ga, right?..." No.

[zinj]

OO buck, in a 6-7 pound gun, kicks WAY more then most people can handle.

If I told you to get a .458 Win mag for home defense, you'd say I was a nut, but, that's what a shotgun is, without the benefit of the velocity you get with a rifle...

Where are you getting the idea that 00 Buck kicks like a .458? The standard 2.75in 00 load is 9 1/8th oz pellets at 1300 FPS. It puts out around 25 foot pounds of recoil energy, a far cry from the approximately 60 foot pounds generated by the .458. Not only that, but unlike your M44 most shotguns are equipped with recoil pads to mitigate the kick. A pump shotgun is also allows much quicker followup shots than the Mosin (not even to mention a semi-auto, which is even faster and further attenuates recoil), and is less likely to catastropically overpenetrate. There simply is no comparison.

If shotgun recoil were so horrible, how can clay shooters shoot hundreds of rounds in a day? Handicap trap loads are just as hot as the standard 9 pellet 00 load.

[johnbt]

There's a reason some clays shooters use 8 to 10 pound guns and maybe 3/4 to 1 ounce of shot. It helps.

"what is recoil"

I was going to mention some numbers relating to the recoil of 3" turkey shells loaded with 2 ounces of shot (Federal shells @1150 fps in my case) in my 7.25-pound Express, but Chuck has better numbers.

www.chuckhawks.com/12gauge.htm

"A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle. This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads."

John

[Cold_DeadHands]

I understand there are many factors to consider when finding the right caliber and/or load...including but not limited to size and health condition...maybe even age. however, the recoil of 3" magnum loads really doesn't bother me too much when popping off a few rounds but i wouldn't want to shoot 3" magnum shells all day. That being said, 2 3/4" shells don't bother me and i can shoot them all day long out of my lightweight 1300 defender.
All i'm saying is; ...some people are just more sensitive to recoil then others.

[94bluerat]

I want to introduce a new term. It may follow along the lines of "old school".

"Practi-cool"

It's practical, it's cool, you get the drift.

It's anything that works without the extra, decor, fluff or flash.

I'd post a picture, but I'm not cool enough to figure out how...

[Vince1911]

I live waaay out in the country and one of my pass times is sitting in one of my tree stands and shooting coyotes after dark.
With my Mossberg a light was needed when the moon is not out, when the night is lit with a moon then a laser works VERY well (it doesnt spook them at all) I shoot 00 buck at night and slugs during the day (when Im not using a rifle) so when using slugs I really value my Holo sight for distance shots. Oh I almost forgot I really like having some extra shells on my stock for fast reloads.

I guess my point is that NOT everyone that has a shotgun with different tools mounted on it is a "Mall Ninja" (I hate malls) I'm not a newb Ive been collecting guns my entire loooong life and hunt from coast to coast so please just because you see a guy with a tactical weapon don't prejudge him he might have a very good need for everything on that weapon.

Those damn city people buying guns they don't shoot are giving others a bad name.

[Death from Afar]

I completely agree with Vince on this one. As you would know, I dont really have a "need" for a HD shotgun in this here green and pleasent land, but I do use my "practi-cool" ( love that phrase) shotgun for a lot of night shooting rabbits ( of which there are many, and no limits exist- 400 shot in a night is usual).

The point is that what is totally useless in one situation, may be very useful in another. I have no use whatsoever for a light on the gun, but I do rate Vang Comp for their porting, tighter pattersn and ( i think) reduced recoil. Slings are good for me, laser sights are not. I guess what it boils down to is that the great thing about the shotgun- its versitility- means the gun can be really "mission specific" for what you are going to do with it.

My take on all this is that keep a careful idea on what other people thing works, and think long and hard if it works for you. Try it out, and if it is junk, throw it away.

[Socrates]

Percisely.

The principle drawbacks of the 12 gauge shotgun are the size and weight of the typical 12 gauge gun itself, especially the repeaters, and the recoil generated by the big shells. These two factors make the 12 gauge unsuitable for many shooters.

According to the Shotgun Recoil Table the recoil energy of a 1 ounce target load at 1180 fps in a typical 7.5 pound gun is 17.3 ft. lbs., about like the recoil of a .270 rifle. The typical promotional shell with 1 ounce of shot at 1290 fps in the same shotgun hits back with around 20.8 ft. lbs. of recoil energy, about like an average .30-06 rifle. These loads deliver about as much recoil as most shooters can stand on a continuing basis.

A typical high-brass load with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at a MV of 1330 fps fired in a 7.5 pound shotgun is much worse. It belts the shooter with 36.4 ft. lbs. of recoil. This is roughly equivalent to the kick of a .300 Ultra Mag. rifle. Average hunters should strictly limit the number of such loads they fire to avoid developing a flinch.

12 gauge Magnum shells are even worse. A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle. This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads.

Thanks, but I'll stay with my .375 H&H, or, better, my .475 Ackley....
If I've got to be kicked by an elephant caliber gun, I'll take the recoil, just to put a 500 grain bullet out at 2400 fps. It does damage a shotgun can only dream of, thanks to both bullet weight, and velocity...

By the way, I was a test shooter for Ballistic Research Inc.
a company that sold 100% shotgun sabot, and shotgun slugs....
You want recoil? Try 600 grains, at 2200 fps, around 100 ftlbs in this rifle...
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/VanHornLott450n2/GS510VANHORNWEB.jpg
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/VanHornLott450n2/LottVHleft.jpg
Those 'little' rounds on the right are 458 Lott, 500 grains, 2300 fps...

[Katrina Guy]

Wow, that's just incredible, going back to re read that one, that just seems,must be a typo? Going to hafta run a spread sheet on that, seems like one rabbit kill every minute or something. So, who's suffering the most, the rabbits or your shoulder? LOL

[PhoenixWright]

Hey I'm looking for a collapsible stock for my Mossberg 835. They all look the same to me. Can someone recommend me stock that is comfortable and reduces recoil.

[Cold_DeadHands]

Knoxx Recoil Reducing Stock is supposed to work great. They got 2 collapsible stocks tho, only the more expensive one is recoil reducing (~$120).

[NeoBlu]

458 Lott. Sweet.

[Regular Joe]

I'm raiding the shotgun forum tonite...
Yes, I like that term: "practicool". I've got the Blackhawk stock on my 870, and it makes all the difference. Now my only problem is that those heavy loads are expensive!
I ran into this little quote on Yahoo answers:
"Adding porting or a muzzle brake to your gun will not do much as far a recoil is concerned, it will mostly reduce muzzle rise so that the recoil is directed straight back into the shoulder and therefore felt less. I currently own a Remington 870 with an 18" barrel. I mainly use this in 3 gun matches and use #4 buckshot loads, and they do kick. I added a Cutts Compensator and also added a Knoxx recoil reducing stock to the setup as well and the felt recoil and muzzle rise is virtually nonexistent."
If I have time before TSHTF, I'll be locating that Cutts Compensator, altho I can't imagine me ever meeting something that needs a double tap with rifled slugs!

[Death from Afar]

Wow, that's just incredible, going back to re read that one, that just seems,must be a typo? Going to hafta run a spread sheet on that, seems like one rabbit kill every minute or something. So, who's suffering the most, the rabbits or your shoulder? LOL

400 rabbits in one night? Quite common really, here, there is no limit and rabbits are a huge pest. The most I have ever shot in one night ( with 5 other guys) is about 1200.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_rural_story_skin/481672

( You will see the winning team shot 1800 rabbits in 24 hours) (!!)

[Maromero]

farklization/farkle = Fancy Accessory, Really Kool, Likely Expensive

Learned something new today!

[Chuckusaret]

I have Mossberg 500 12 gauge 20" 7+1 for HD. I don't believe I will be worring about recoil if my home was ever to be invaded. There is an opportunity cost for everything.

[inSight-NEO]

I have a few thoughts concerning things such as "imbalance" due to various accessories, the need for a sling, etc.

Within typical HD ranges, is "balance" really going to make much of a difference (unless you have 5 lbs. worth of crap hanging off the gun)? Also, I agree that a good sling is worthwhile (I have an Urban ERT 1 pt/2 pt setup...am currently using a 1 pt configuration) when it comes to enhancing the shotguns mobility, but would someone really feel inclined to "sling up" their shotty when BG's are invading the home? This would more than likely just get in the way. Now, if you are LE and this is a planned assault, this would be a different matter entirely.

I could go on an on..but Im just too tired.

Below is my current HD shotty (primarily a "barricade" weapon). It has several "tacticool" accessories and every single one of them serves a practical/useful purpose. And yes, I have taken the time to learn how to implement each and every one of them. And no, not one of them has thrown off the weapons "balance" to any negative degree. Besides, shotguns are not necessarily "nimble" to begin with!

Now, would I necessarily have an opportunity or need for using every accessory, given an HD situation? Probably not. But, Id rather have the extended capability these things offer (if needed) than to end up regretting their absence when the sh*t hits the fan. Hindsight, in this situation, could leave you stretcher-bound or worse.....

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo147/photo-NEO/B_01.jpg

Wifes new camera + my pre-occupation with other matters = poor pic.

[nemoaz]

I have a few thoughts concerning things such as "imbalance" due to various accessories, the need for a sling, etc.
...
Within typical HD ranges, is "balance" really going to make much of a difference (unless you have 5 lbs. worth of crap hanging off the gun)? Also, I agree that a good sling is worthwhile (I have an Urban ERT 1 pt/2 pt setup...am currently using a 1 pt configuration) when it comes to enhancing the shotguns mobility, but would someone really feel inclined to "sling up" their shotty when BG's are invading the home? Ever tried to open a closer/bathroom/bedroom door with a shotgun in your hand? Balance does matter then. I DON"T have a sling on my guns at home, but it is a challenge to do certain things with the ole blunderbuss in your hand.
Below is my current HD shotty (primarily a "barricade" weapon). \.Nice.

[Doggieman]

I'd like to chime in with support of the pistol-grip-only (cruiser) shotgun.

Years ago I was totally opposed to them... until I actually tried one.

You have to fire it NOT from hip-level but from belly level. Your right elbow (assuming you're firing right handed) should be bent at 90-100 degrees and your wrist should be as straight as possible. The inside of your right arm is pressed tight against the side of your belly. You lean forward while firing, keeping your right arm as unmoving as possible.

No, you're not going to shoot skeet with this configuration, but you're going to sweep a room very well. And, quite honestly, if you're sweeping a room with a shotgun that has a standard stock, you're not going to have it up to your cheek anyway, because the damn thing is going to be too long, too unwieldy and too easily snatched by a guy (or girl!) hiding around the corner.

If you have a standard stock and you're in a tough situation, you're going to be holding the stock UNDER your armpit anyway. To shorten the gun and make it harder to grab or knock away from you. Might as well just use a pistol grip.

TRY the pistol grip, it's incredibly useful at short distances when done right. It's not 'tacti-cool', it's quite useful.

[inSight-NEO]

Ever tried to open a closer/bathroom/bedroom door with a shotgun in your hand? Balance does matter then. I DON"T have a sling on my guns at home, but it is a challenge to do certain things with the ole blunderbuss in your hand.

Heh..I cant say that I have. Honestly, I think the pistol grip stock on my SNT might somehow offset any "imbalance" issues due to the added weight of the sidesaddle and light. Maybe this is because the grip angle is quite different vs what would be necessary with a "standard" stock. What I like about the PG stock is that it seems to make one-handed manipulation seem much more "natural" vs a standard configuration...particularly when add-ons are present.


To shorten the gun and make it harder to grab or knock away from you.

Best thing here is to not let them get that close in the first place!!;) However, from what Ive "heard", if someone tries to grab the end of the barrel and/or actually succeeds in doing so, simply squat down (thus changing the angle) and proceed to umm...remove him/her from it in an effective manner. Another thing to consider (when speaking of sg's with a stock) is to just keep the barrel angled down vs straight ahead, until you are needing to use it (in an HD situation). It seems like this would make it just a bit harder for someone to effectively grab hold of the barrel.

[Sarge]

Guess I'm behind the times...I still like a plain, bead-sighted 590 or 870. About the most useful accessory I can imagine for either would be a butt-cuff stuffed full of Super-X slugs.

[nemoaz]

I'd like to chime in with support of the pistol-grip-only (cruiser) shotgun.

Years ago I was totally opposed to them... until I actually tried one.

I have tried them. The only time they are useful is if you are using the weapon solely for breaching purposes.

If you have a standard stock and you're in a tough situation, you're going to be holding the stock UNDER your armpit anyway. To shorten the gun and make it harder to grab or knock away from you.Tough situation? I suspect you mean tight quarters and yes you would have it tucked in the "underarm assault position" for that. As you note, the stock is against your hip or higher under your arm so you really have no penalty in maneuverability or only an inch or two penalty I guess depending on how thick you are or whether you have a compact buttstock.

Might as well just use a pistol grip. [/guote]What kind of logic is that? There really is no penalty in maneuverability with a buttstocked shotgun (because the butt will be under my armpit in tightquarters) and I get the added benefit of being able to shoulder the weapon for a more effective acquisition of the target.

Let me say that additionally with the shotgun in the underarm assault position with the gun firmly locked in, the shotgun is readily controllable as part of the recoil is absorbed by the chest/abdomen and as the buttstock keeps the weapon from moving. With a PGO, felt recoil is more (though certainly not uncontrollable) but there is no easy way to lock the weapon into position and follow up shots take much more time.

For those that think shotguns are just like in the movies, they aren't. You can't just point it in the general direction, pull the trigger and see the guy fall. At close range, the spread of the shot is hardly larger than the bore. You may hit it shooting from the hip with a PGO gun, but your chances are exponentially better by shouldering it. (It doesn't really matter whether we are talking about handguns, shotguns or rifles for that last point.) You must also still hit an important part of the bad guy with that small pattern. Just like with handguns or rifles, the only sure way of immediately incapacitating that bad guy who is threatening you or a loved one is by hitting the central nervous system. Lung shots often result in several minutes before the bad guy is incapacitated. Even destroying the heart or major blood vessels allows the determined bad guy to have at least 15 seconds to harm you or yours. Shoulder the weapon if you want to have decent odds of stopping the bad guy.

[quote]TRY the pistol grip, it's incredibly useful at short distances when done right. It's not 'tacti-cool', it's quite useful.Young man, I have owned PGO shotguns and have played around with them extensively. I have pistol grips in my crates of crap right now. I don't have a use for one on my HD shotgun and I wouldn't recommend that any friend or family get one either.

It should be a clue that no prominent firearms instructor or author recommends a PGO shotgun and no military or no LE agency issues a PGO shotgun (for anything except breaching).

[Creeper]

When I started this thread, I had no idea it would develop "a life of it's own" and morph into the current, fun filled conversations.

I've owned pistol grip shotguns... as in pistol grip only. Other than the obvious concealment value or a slight advantage when crawling in a tight cave or tunnel, I find them far less functional than a stocked shotgun.
If you said "Here Creeper, go clear this three story building... which shotgun would you like?" and my choices were identical shotguns save for the stock/grip variable... I'd go for the gun with a buttstock every time.

For most... maybe 99.7% or so in reality, comments on the pluses and minuses of shotgun variations are academic and theoretical.
Until you've been in a gunfight with a shotgun in close quarters (or at least trained extensively in shotgun CQC), what you think would be a good idea and what is a good idea can be two entirely different ideas.
Sometimes, even looking toward police or military as points of practical reference can be somewhat invalid, as their needs are unique to their situation, training and even budget.

I've always been a guy who believes a reasonably light, full stock gun (with or without PG) with a decent mag capacity, good sights, a sling and a solidly mounted and bright light with a instant on/off control... is all just about anyone would ever need in a civilian, home defense environment.

What it comes right down to is practice and training. A guy (like Sarge for example) who runs a few boxes a month thru his funky old Ithaca M37 riot gun, and has for the past 20 years is the guy I want on my six.
The guy with a shiny safe queen Benelli M4 camo, festooned with another grand worth of farkles, who's not run a full box thru it in six months... hell, I'd be afraid he'd shoot me in the ass during a "tactical reload". :rolleyes:

Moving right along....
C

[inSight-NEO]

I've always been a guy who believes a reasonably light, full stock gun (with or without PG) with a decent mag capacity, good sights, a sling and a solidly mounted and bright light with a instant on/off control... is all just about anyone would ever need in a civilian, home defense environment.

I agree as this is basically what I have, the sidesaddle notwithstanding. Personally, Ive been debating the "need" for this sidesaddle (see pic in one of my earlier posts). But, given its relatively unobtrusive weight, Im thinking that I just might rather have it and not need it than to not have it and really need it!

Either way, as has been mentioned before, all the goods amount to squat without useful practice. Even with this, you just never know.....

[Creeper]

I've got a Mesa Tactical 6 shell carrier/1913 rail for my Benelli M2... that I've yet to install.
I bought it on a whim, then sent it back to Mesa when I found out they were having screw and counterbore issues with the countersink screws they were using at the time.
They are in the process of changing over to a Benelli style, custom screw with a flat counterbore... to correct the occasional thread engagement issues they were having in the past.

When I get the carrier back, I'll still be undecided on installing it... I can see advantages and disadvantages to it. Also, I'm left handed, so the "manual of arms" for using the carrier effectively is a bit wonky for me.

From my perspective, and depending on a guns balance value, I think receiver carriers might be a little better than a buttstock carrier... but some "light butt" guns might actually have a better balance with a buttstock carrier.
I really do like the buttstock carrier Mesa makes for the M2 that replaces the sling mount cross plate... very sanitary, solid and simple way to carry an extra 4 shells.

C

[flippycat]

Just my .02 also on the subject ...Many things about tacti-cool / practical bolt ons mentioned are useful to be honest from opinion.

First I want to address the intimidation factor they provide... for a second or two anyways.
LASERS:
Any mounted laser even if it is 3 foot off from being accurately adjusted is enough to warrant fear factor into most anyone when displayed on someones person. Hypothetically speaking in regards to a new owner who never saw this coming, the worst case scenario happened and you do have a BG in the house and you are 30 foot away down a hallway and the first thing you do is tag him with a red dot and scream out 'dont f'n move. Odds are if he is not tweaking he will drop a deuce. Even if you cannot physically see the bg and can at least red dot somewhere in the same room odd's are he will break out the nearest window or possibly even move into view not knowing where the dot is coming from so you have something to at least shoot at.

Now however, I DO NOT agree with the above mentioned method of home protection, though this is a common mindset amongst those who would actually consider protecting their home and fearing having to actually discharge. ...Though, that (stand-off) option may be the only one that could be used say if actually discharging could mame others in the home if the BG is not standing where you want him to be. IE possibly missing the target or a through and through into a child's bedroom. Either case the thin sheet of 1/2in drywall is not stopping anything.


Now Just in General stuff:
Lets just say you have the bolt on list covered, it has all the toys on it. And lets just for a second pretend life is not a perfect scenario of a bg in the house and totally screw all the political jargon nothing applies here really but a natural disaster/survival setting.

The sling, many many uses...tourniquet for a wound sustained in disaster, used for a lift aid on a jagged object,a tie down for a person or object, holding a door closed, heck even holding an ill fitted pair of pants up that were the first thing you threw on running out the door before the house fell over.

Power outages for average joe and his two- 3 day supply:
Lights have been out for 4 days, candles used up and batteries on all your normal household flashlights are dead, but you do have the one mounted to your 500 ..a nice backup light for when really really needed to drop a midnight deuce in the pitch black or signal emergency crews nearby.



lol and yes I know they were a stretch to justify them, odds are that more practical things could be found in the debris that could be used rather then tearing the gun down except for my mentioned backup use for the flashlight.

All in all I do believe that intimidation out weighs any practical purposes though I believe there is practical purpose. The masses will not have the tactical training or even a scenario to use it in a tactical fashion. Though it is smaller and easy to keep hidden out of plain view then its full stocked full barreled brother.

A HD situation is almost impossible to predict all scenarios, but for those die hard full stock full barrel long gunners, you are not sitting in a stand beading down on a whitetail or sitting in your blind shooting ducks. You are not always going to get the best case scenario of a full shouldered shot and may need to take a hip/mid level shot if you need to swing around to get the guy who snuck up behind you or you just don't have that extra milli second to fully shoulder it. One nice thing about a HD situation is you most likely have staggered loads, so that first shot of 00 buck is going in the same direction regardless if you shouldered the shot or not.

lol, done with ramble on this note...does it really matter as long as you know how to shoot it? Give me a shell, a piece of pipe and a hammer and I will protect my home with it.

[nemoaz]

When I started this thread, I had no idea it would develop "a life of it's own" and morph into the current, fun filled conversations.All shotguns threads eventually become:

1. PGO or full stock,
2 Birdshot vs buckshot,
3 870 vs Mossberg, or
4. Usefulness of mall ninja operator tactical accessories (heat shields, bayonets, breaching muzzle devices)

:D

[inSight-NEO]

Usefulness of mall ninja operator tactical accessories (heat shields, bayonets, breaching muzzle devices)

I keep seeing this phrase (mall ninja) and Im still wondering about its origin. After all, Ive never heard of any ninja using any such items, let alone the weapons needed for mounting them!

Besides...who likes going to the mall anyway? :rolleyes:

But, this is stuff best saved for another thread.....

[nemoaz]

Google is your friend. There's more, but here's a start: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[lmccrock]

I use an 1100 in 3-gun now but I started with a 590 (with heat shield). I would not have seen the value of a heat shield until I wrapped my hand around the 590 barrel after a 32 round 3-gun stage and it was toasty even with the shield. On long stages I wear a glove on my left hand because the 1100 barrel does get hot. So I suppose if you expect to fire off 20+ rounds in a defensive struggle than a heat shield is good. Otherwise - excessive weight. And that 590 with shield and sidesaddle with 6 shells and a full mag and chamber (9 more shells) is heavy. Add more tacticool stuff - more heavy!

Lee

[Death from Afar]

That mall ninja page is well worth a read. I nearly ruined my key board snorting coffee on it...........

[inSight-NEO]

Google is your friend. There's more, but here's a start: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Hmm..Interesting. That must be one rough and tough shopping center.:rolleyes:

Speaking of "mall ninja" and "tacticool" type things....I think a previous post nailed it with the phrase "practicool." Sure, quite a few accessories and/or mods can be ridiculous and unnecessary. But, there are some out there which continue to prove themselves as quite useful and dare I say...practical.

Now, when it comes to the reliability regarding some of these items, who can say? I guess this is where ol' Mr. Murphy becomes a factor. It seems like there is always a give and take.

Personally, my "practicool" items can be justified as such:

a) the white light system- This is a given...Its just too hard to hold a light and manipulate a pump shotty. I would like to be prepared when things go "BUMP" in the night.

b) the sidesaddle- Since (even with a mag extension) I only tend to keep 4 rounds in the mag tube, I personally feel better having a few more rounds "mounted" on the gun. After all, I dont intend on sleeping with an ammo belt. As I mentioned before, its one of those things Id rather have and never need than to be without it when I really need it.

c) the pistol grip stock- For me, well...I just shoot better with the PG stock. Also, it not only allows for greater one-handed manipulation of the weapon, but I believe (due to the strong grip it affords) the PG equipped stock just might make the weapon harder to disarm.

d) the mag tube extension- Well, not really "tactical"....I just like the idea of being able to shove in 6 rounds vs 4.

e) the Urban ERT sling- I have it due to the fact that it allows for a 1-point carry. My wife thinks it looks goofy when I carry this way. I dont care. I think it allows for exceptionally quick weapon acquisition and manipulation vs 2-point. Besides, the Benell SNT doesnt allow for a great 2-point carry when using this sling. However, I hardly use a sling and really only bought it for one of those proverbial "rainy days." I will have to admit however, this 1-point thing does make the weapon seem much more "tacticool"!!! :D

[Invalid Zero]

I can't believe how many people believed the mall ninja was being serious and not trolling.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

Fun read irregardless. :D

[nemoaz]

No, I don't think anyone believed the mall ninja posts are anything but sarcasm. But he's a caricature of a certain mentality.