What's the difference between Paper cutter and whatnot?

[koolminx]

I hear paper cutter versus something else when shooting. Why would you shoot one type ammo at a target and another at an attacker or at an animal?

[drail]

I believe you're thinking of a "wadcutter" round. Wadcutters are used for target work because they have a sharp shoulder which cuts a neat circular hole instead of a jagged hole. The reason this is important is for easier scoring of the targets in competition. Sometimes a hole will be close to or right on a scoring line and it can mean the difference between a winning score or second place.

[Wishoot]

Wadcutters can also be used to put a hole in a BG too.

[LHB1]

There are two types of target bullets for pistols. Both are very accurate. The obvious, frequently sharp edged, shoulder cuts a clean hole in target paper which aids scoring. Very often in a pistol match, the scorer must determine whether a bullet hole cuts the next higher scoring ring or not. Sometimes, the scoring of just one shot can mean the difference between winning or losing.

- wadcutters = little or no protruding nose on bullet and a sharp, flat edge where the front of bullet meets the side of bullet.

- semi-wadcutters = have the same sharp edge/shoulder as full wadcutters but also have a very pronounced, protruding nose.

[JohnKSa]

Self-defense ammunition is designed to expand. That does several things:

Makes a bigger hole.
Tends to penetration to acceptable limits.
It stops the bullet faster which means that the bullet applies more force/power to the target.

That makes good self-defense ammunition expensive since reliable expansion can be difficult to achieve over the range of targets, bullet velocities, intermediate barriers, etc. that the bullet is expected to perform. It requires more testing and is generally more complicated to make. It is likely subject to more careful quality control measures as well due to its intended usage.

It needs to be 100% reliable both in function and expansion and also needs to be accurate and should also be low-flash since many self-defense encounters occur in low light.

Typical practice ammunition is designed primarily to be inexpensive and accurate.

[(BH)]

Some pics for reference:

JHP's

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=64699&thumb=1&d=1236164132

FMJ's

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:EYrW3DrtTD6whM:http://anderson-arms.com/images/i-45%2520ACP-FMJ.jpg


Wadcutter:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-9YNZt6xW_Zy5M:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/7.62x38R_Nagant_-_WC_-_3.jpg

[Mello2u]

(BH)'s post is worth several 1000 words.

[Casimer]

+1 on Drail's answer regarding 'paper cutting' bullets. They're much easier to score, and can result in a better score on a given target for this fact.

This is what wadcutter holes look like..
http://capnbob.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/mickey.jpg
vs a round nose bullet ..
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Ammunition/MkIIIFed124gr25ydtarg1.jpg

[Jim Watson]

Has anybody got a picture of a whatnot bullet?

[koolminx]

What I meant to say but couldn't form is the stories I read here about some dude asking for ammo, and another dude asking him if he want's to shoot Paper or People....

Why is that relevant to the question of purchasing say a box of 9MM Luger rounds?

If it's for self defense I am not going to be out shooting 14 different kinds of ammo then change to another kind just to use for self defense... I'd rather be familiar with how the round shoots so I don't have to change any habits to defend myself...

Don't nobody practice shooting targets with the same stuff theyre going to shoot an intruder with? OR am I just not getting it?

[dogtown tom]

koolminx:
...I'd rather be familiar with how the round shoots so I don't have to change any habits to defend myself...

Don't nobody practice shooting targets with the same stuff theyre going to shoot an intruder with? OR am I just not getting it?

The primary reason for shooting different ammunition (paper vs people) ?

Cost.

FMJ "plinking" ammo is half the price or less than the premium ammunition designed for self defense.

If Corbon PowR'ball, Federal HydraShok or Winchester Ranger ran the same price per round as CCI Blazer or Winchester White Box, I'm quite sure Blazer & WWB would cease to exist. But they don't and never will.

[Dannyl]

Hi,
I believe that one can become very proficient without necessarily shooting all the time the same ammo that one carries.
My reasons are:
1. JHP ammo is invariably more expensive, so for most people, using it all the time means less shooting.
2. By using cheaper ( and with milder recoil) ammo, once can shoot more and avoid developing any of the myriad of bad habits that can result from shooting a gun that recoils very hard. This is more so when one has a very light gun that tends to recoil very hard with "hot" ammunition.

So, with ammo that is not premium grade( without taking it to the extreme where the practice ammo is ridiculously soft) , one can practice more and be proficient. If and when you need to defend yourself your body will be so affected by the adrenaline and emotions, that the additonal recoil will go unnoticed, but you will be shooting correctly, which means a better chance of shooting fast and accurately. (Did I mention that reloading gives you the chance to taylor your ammo to suit what you want it to do?)

A good example is what I did this year with my wife. She decided that she wants to join me in my hunting trip, and hunt for te first time in her life.
My only hunting rifle is a 3006, and with mormal hunting loads it has a recoil that is a tad heavy for a lady that weighs a mere 46Kg.
I loaded ammo with very mild felocities, which reduced the recoil by about 20%, this allowed me to teach her and let her practice often.

When we did go hunting, I let her use ammo loaded to higher velocity; the result was that all she neeeded was a single shot. with perfect bullet placement her first buck was down. as expected, not only she does not remember the recoil, but she says that she did not even register the noise of teh shot.

One may argue that this is different than an SD situation, I think that it is very relevant. the excitement of the hunt creates similar reactions in our body as an armed encounter would.

Brgds,

Danny

[b.thomas]

It should be mentioned that wadcutters are used in revolvers not auto's as they won't feed properly.
This might be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiwadcutter

wadcutterhttp: http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/images/bt08.jpg

semi-wadcutter: http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/images/bt07.jpg

[darkgael]

Really a fine set of responses. Great pictures and links.
It might be noted, also, that semi-wadcutters have applications well beyond target shooting. Elmer Keith developed his now classic "Keith semi-wadcutter" for big game hunting with the .44 magnum. In addition, one can make a good argument that all of the heavy, gas checked, flat nosed lead hunting bullets from Buffalo Bore and other companies are variations on the semi-wadcutter.
Pete

[Dwight55]

You are correct, b.thomas, in the "wadcutter" bullet, . . . but semi-wadcutters work super well in almost any quality semi-auto. I used to shoot them all the time when I was reloading on a scheduled basis, . . . now I just use some of my wife's extra cash and shoot WW white box fmj's from Wally World. :D

BG: would you have any similar pictures of .45 bullets, . . . ???

May God bless,
Dwight

[Casimer]

There are match pistols that shoot full wadcutters - e.g. the S&W Model 52 and various ISSF Centerfire pistols. But it's a notoriously tricky cartridge to feed. These guns usually require handloads to get the correct OAL and loading.

[Russ5924]

Was shooting this week at the range and another person had a .45 but had bought SWC. The best he ever got was maybe three shots before it jammed mostly just two. Never did ask what gun he was shooting. Some autos will shoot them some won't:) Most wadcutter round used for targets are low velocity and just not up to the job of SD:)

[oneounceload]

It should be mentioned that wadcutters are used in revolvers not auto's as they won't feed properly.

Besides the S&W 52 that shoots 38 spl WC, there are numerous other semi target pistols that shoot 32 WC - they're just not that popular due to the expense of the pistol

As has been mentioned - FMJ for paper shooting is a LOT cheaper than shooting SD JHP ammunition - if you can shoot the same weight bullet, your POA/POI should be close enough

[koolminx]

Dogtown and Danny Thank you for that explanation.

They were exactly the answer I was seeking.

[Stevie-Ray]

Why is that relevant to the question of purchasing say a box of 9MM Luger rounds?

If it's for self defense I am not going to be out shooting 14 different kinds of ammo then change to another kind just to use for self defense... I'd rather be familiar with how the round shoots so I don't have to change any habits to defend myself...It's relevant when they're asking: range guns or carry/defensive guns? A range gun is something you have fun with. It can be called upon for defense in a pinch, but mostly is used for fun/relaxation by punching holes in paper, bowling pins, cans, etc.

Don't nobody practice shooting targets with the same stuff theyre going to shoot an intruder with? OR am I just not getting it? Well, I do, but there are many that do not, as shooting premium defensive ammo is quite expensive. I do it by not shooting much; maybe 20 rounds or so each from my defensive guns. Just enough to know that I am still current with recoil, point of aim/point of impact, etc. If I find I have slumped somewhat, I punish myself by shooting more til I am proficient. The extra money I have to spend sparks me to going back to the range in a timely manner.;) Others do it by finding a cheaper load that somewhat mimics their pet defensive load in recoil and POA/POI. Of course, the easiest way to do that is to reload, but most don't want to spend the up front money to start. Over 20 years ago, when I was shooting my Colt Mark IV at the range for hundreds of rounds per week, I found my pet reload shot to the same POI as .45 ACP Winchester Silver Tips. As I was using the Colt for home defense at the time, I loaded it with Silver Tips. Shot maybe 1 or 2 mags of STs at every range trip. All the rest were 185 gr semi-wadcutters.

[darkgael]

had a .45 but had bought SWC. The best he ever got was maybe three shots before it jammed mostly just two.

You are correct that some autos will while others won't. Both of my 1911s, a Springfield and a Gold Cup, shoot SWCs flawlessly. For some guns, that break in smoothness by the shoulder of the bullet is a deal stopper. Usually, that can be fixed by polishing/altering the ramp.
Premium ammo for practice. When I buy a box of premium ammo, at a cost of maybe $1 a round, I will shoot maybe five to see if it functions and where the gun shoots them. Over the years, though, those boxes accumulate, especially since I don't get into gun fights. There comes a time when I will just shoot up a box for practice. Not very often. It's much easier to duplicate the load (not always possible) and practice with the handloads (and wildly cheaper).
Pete

[JohnKSa]

If it's for self defense I am not going to be out shooting 14 different kinds of ammo then change to another kind just to use for self defense... I'd rather be familiar with how the round shoots so I don't have to change any habits to defend myself...If the target round you use to practice is the same bullet weight and in the same general velocity class as your self-defense ammo then it will probably shoot very close to the same point of aim.

I keep a box that stores all my partial ammunition boxes. If I take a gun to the range and come back with 5 rounds in a box, I don't put that back in my normal storage, I put it in my "partial" box. So after awhile I end up with a wide variety of different loads in the box. For fun I took something like 5 or 6 different 9mm loads and put them all in a magazine. A few types of FMJ, a couple of types of hollowpoints. I think all were 115gr but there may have been one 124gr bullet load in the bunch. All were standard pressure rounds--no +P or +P+. Then I shot the entire magazine into one group at 15 yards. It wasn't really appreciably different from the groups I had been shooting using only one kind of ammunition.

If you're worried about it, do your own experiment to see if the two rounds behave significantly differently in terms of point of impact, recoil, etc. I think you'll find that they're more alike than different and that you can practice with the cheaper range ammo without worrying about how it will affect your performance with the more expensive self-defense ammunition.

[orionengnr]

Why is that relevant to the question of purchasing say a box of 9MM Luger rounds?

If it's for self defense I am not going to be out shooting 14 different kinds of ammo then change to another kind just to use for self defense... I'd rather be familiar with how the round shoots so I don't have to change any habits to defend myself...

Well, if your funds are unlimited, I suppose it is of no consequence whatsoever. Buy the best, shoot to your heart's content.

For most of us in the real world, who like to practice weekly, the price of ammo over that last two years has become, ummm, a factor.

I don't need 14 types of ammo. I need two types--practice ammo, of which I can shoot a lot, and SD ammo, of which I shoot "just enough".

Top-shelf SD ammo is getting up to about a buck a round.

I shoot at least 50 rounds a week (which, if I were shooting SD ammo, would be $50). Some people I know go through 150 a week ($150). And those who compete go through a good bit more. I don't know anybody who can afford to shoot large quantities of factory ammo at those prices.

I can load and shoot 50 rounds of 45acp (LSWC) target ammo for $6-7 (and rising).

So, if you want to shoot well, and you can spend either $7 or $50 per week, will this affect how regularly will you shoot? And consequently, how well you shoot?

[Locoweed]

Factory wadcutters are usually reduced loads for target shooting. To realize the full potential of the wadcutter it is best to reload them hot. I personally wouldn't dream of using a soft lead wadcutter as a SD load. They tend to lead up barrels, too.

[woad_yurt]

I disagree. .38 SPL is just borderline fast enough; I don't trust JHPs too expand every time, so I use hollowbase wadcutters.

I load 148 gr .358" LHBWCs with 4 gr of W231/HP-38 and it's a smokin' round. It removes a core sample from anything I shoot; it's a great penetrator as well. No leading at all from this load.

[Casimer]

The thing to watch out for with a hot HBWC is that the skirt can split, which can a cause the bullet to tumble. I've also been warned that it can shear off entirely, within the bore. But I've never pushed one hard enough to find out if this is true.

[LarryFlew]

When I go to the range I get my moneys worth on range time. Shoot several hundred rounds of 22, 9 and 45 each trip. If I'm shooting my Gold Dot +P for those rounds I'd go broke.

Also, at the range I'm shooting for best shots on target. In a SD situation I'm shooting quickly and the target is center on the body. Don't need to be more accurate with my SD ammo.

[(BH)]

The fundamentals here are: Price, Purpose and Proficiency.

Price: This has been well covered above, but basically it costs way too much to go to the range put 400 GoldDots downrange. Whereas, with ball ammo you can do it for pretty cheap (relatively speaking of course :D ).

Purpose: The is a plethora of reasons as to why JHP's are generally better for self defense. Mainly, it has to do with the concept of stopping power. We won't go into that, as there is more than enough info here on that subject already. Do a search on "stopping power" or "FMJ vs JHP" etc. for more info in that department.

Proficiency: Generally the expensive JHP's operate with higher pressure levels (+P, +P+) than your standard target ammo. This adds to the recoil when firing, which in turn adds to the fatigue experienced by the shooter after so many rounds. Of course, you should practice with your SD ammo, to familiarize yourself with it, and most importantly to make sure that your gun will operate properly with that specific type. However, to accomplish both of those, it is not necessary to shoot only SD ammo every time you go to the range, and really there's no need to practice with it at all on most of your trips to the range.

Basically, JHP is designed for SD/HD/LEO etc. and FMJ is cheap for practice. If the time ever comes, God forbid, that you have to use your SD ammo in an SD situation, you won't thinking about the differences between the two. However, after a day at the range shooting nothing but SD ammo you and your wallet will notice the difference. :D