Script for Shooting Aftermath

[NightSight]

Does anyone have a script at home in case of a break in; something that you can read to the 911 dispatcher?? What about a script for the aftermath of a shooting either in your home on away from your home?? I have read in various places that it is wise to have something very generic written down because in a high stress situation, especially the aftermath of a shooting, you might say things that could wreak havoc later in your defense. If you do have a script could you please share the main points with us?? Thanks in advance.

[Sefner]

"I feared for my life and want to talk to a lawyer"? :p

That's not it, but this is relevant to my interests.

[Skans]

The problem is that we all see ourselves as the "Good Guy" in this situation. So, being good guys, we want to cooperate and help the police out as much as possible. It's sort of counter-intuitive for us to clam up and repeat - "I'll only discuss this with my lawyer present" to an officer that we placed the 911 call to.

[MLeake]

But as far as info for a 911 call, one could modify a standard, military style report.

1. Location.
2. Identification.
3. Nature of emergency - IE prowler, break-in, shots fired.
4. Number and disposition of people in the home (residents and guests).
5. Number and disposition of bad guys - if known.
6. Armament of bad guys - if known.
7. Additional factors
A. Are you armed? (So police don't shoot first if they see an armed man)
B. Description of self? (So police can quickly identify if armed person is NOT you)
C. Animals in the house? (Might or might not protect your pit bull - if it lunges at an officer, it's probably getting shot; rounding up family, friends, and pets to a safe room is the best bet all around)
D. Number of entrances to the house? (Good for police to know)
8. STAY ON THE PHONE (or have one of your family members or friends stay on the phone)

Note1: Even when you do everything right, there is a possibility that if you are holding a weapon when police arrive, that you could be shot. Unless you are actively covering a BG, when the police arrive, holster or put down any weapons. Not a knock on the police, but it has happened from time to time.

Note2: Referencing Note1, this is one more reason why holing up in a specified safe room is a much better idea than searching the house, especially once 911 has been called.

[Skans]

this is one more reason why holing up in a specified safe room is a much better idea than searching the house, especially once 911 has been called.

By retreating to a safe-room in your house, aren't you basically telling the BG to "take whatever you want......come back for more.....because I'll be in my safe room and won't come out until you are long gone"?

Sorry, I just can't do that. And, before anyone tells me how I should value my life more than I value my stuff, it's not about that. It's about living with yourself, knowing you let someone have complete access to your house, while you were there, without trying to defend your homestead. It's about giving up your freedom and your sense of self-preservation in excange for safety.

[Mello2u]

NightSight

Script for Shooting Aftermath

You raise an interesting predicament. You limit it to the communication to a 911 operator. I think MLeake has thoroughly address your supposition.

To go beyond your fact pattern, what to do and say in a shooting aftermath after the scene is secured by the police and when the police start to question you, limit what you say to identifying yourself and that you feared for your life. Then say that you are upset, don't fell up to giving a statement, and would like to consult with your attorney.

[MLeake]

.... you go for it, big fella.

Just realize that the military teaches sentries to communicate first, before moving in to investigate mysterious persons. The warning to the JOC is considered more crucial than a one-on-x engagement, in case the engagement kills the sentry.

Also realize that cops usually wait for backup before moving in.

Cops and military sentries have body armor and training, plus radios and backup.

But you go right ahead and search...

Note: In the house, it would be hold up and let the person know that the homeowners were armed, and 911 had been called. I suspect most would leave. If not, there's a 12ga in the bedroom and an AR in the safe, and the intruders would be in for a very bad time if they pressed their luck.

The only time I'd consider searching would be if I heard something going on with the horses. May sound hypocritical, but there are risks I'll assume for living things that I would not assume for furniture or furnishings. Even then, I'd only go outside after establishing the significant other with a phone, a shotgun, and a handgun of her choice. And then I'd have cover during the approach to the open space around the barn, and a rifle in hand - plus a cell phone and headset, for staying in contact with 911.

And I'd make very sure the dispatcher relayed the fact that the homeowner was outside with a rifle, and provided responding officers with a description (to include the location of the hide site I was using to monitor the barn).

[OldMarksman]

It [going to a safe room] 's about giving up your freedom and your sense of self-preservation in excange for safety.

???

What is the value of a "sense of self preservation" if you are not safe?

How can you be all that free if you are rendered immobile by a bullet?

The idea of the safe room is safety. Traipsing around your house with a gun in your hand may make you feel like the good guy in the movies (unless and until you get shot), but it exposes you to ambush, perhaps from more than one direction. The perp has the upper hand--he has no scruples about identifying his target before firing, but you have a legal obligation to do so.

And there's the risk of being shot accidentally by first responders.

Let the threat come to you. If you have to shoot do so, but make sure you can see your target.

I think all relevant training supports this philosophy--perhaps you should look into getting some training.

[koolminx]

Perp in my house endangering MY family, stealing MY things...

This is MY 911 call.

(911) 911 what is the nature of your emergency?

(Me) My house was being burglarized and I was attacked, and then for no reason I can ascertain other than remorse for his foul crime, the Burglar shot himself in the face 7 times with a Colt SAA .45.... Please send help...? ;)



911 only get's the cops to show up after you or your family or the perp are dead or dying or all your stuff is gone...

Perp's doing a grab and go or a night time home burglary generally don't carry gun's (prevents you from carrying more stuff) and you can, and likely will, simply scare them away by being aware of the situation and awake when it starts... Neither party will willingly stick around if they think they're going to get shot...

Crank heads or Crack head situations are very different from a normal burglary, they are so unpredictable that defending yourself is never really something you can prepare fully for.

[fiddletown]

By retreating to a safe-room in your house, aren't you basically telling the BG to "take whatever you want....Sorry, I just can't do that...Nonetheless it is the tactically correct thing to do (as long as all authorized occupants of the house are accounted for and in the safe room). Your aversion to doing so doesn't change the simple facts that --


If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. Or there maybe more than one BG, one of whom can get to your family while you're occupied with the other one.
When (whether you called them or they were called by a neighbor who may have also seen or heard something) the police respond, they don't know who you are. You are just someone with a weapon.


Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first six of these annual events, only one competitor, in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

So if you go out looking, it is most likely that you will lose. If you lose, you leave your family unprotected and have let them down.

...what to do and say in a shooting aftermath after the scene is secured by the police and when the police start to question you, limit what you say to identifying yourself and that you feared for your life. Then say that you are upset, don't fell up to giving a statement, and would like to consult with your attorney....That can do. And while it is better to say nothing than say the wrong thing, clamming up is what bad guys do. You want to immediately identify yourself as the good guy and the victim.

Personally, I'll go along with what Massad Ayoob recommends and has taught me in his LFI-I class and be prepared to say the following:

1. That person attacked me.
2. I will sign a complaint.
3. There is evidence (pointing to evidence).
4. There are witnesses (pointing to witnesses).
5. I won't say anything more now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've talked with my lawyer.

That identifies me as the victim, helps assure that evidence and witnesses aren't overlooked and invokes my right to thereafter remain silent.

[Skans]

Fiddletown, you make a very good case for staying put. However, right or wrong, I am convinced that I can clear my house with a reasonable chance of staying safe. My house has some ambient light, there are ways for me to know what is in certain rooms, and my house is laid out in such a manner that, even while I'm clearing my home, there is no way for a BG to get passed me. Certain doors always remain shut and make enough noise to wake me up if someone moves them. I can tell which doors have moved by the sound and placement of them, so I can narrow down where someone might be in the event of a breakin.

Now, I have no intention of rushing into a room where I suspect a BG might be hiding....and I will stop the search for a period of time laying in wait. I have done this several times, fortunately no BG - just something else causing noises (usually peacocks). So, I do have an idea of what I can and cannot do in my own home. I suspect that anyone else who has gone through this drill does too.

[armoredman]

"I shot to stop his felonious assault. I need to speak to an attorney."

[fiddletown]

...However, right or wrong, I am convinced that I can clear my house with a reasonable chance of staying safe...Maybe. But why not give it a try? Some night get a friend or two to play the "bad guy" and then you go looking. Try it several times -- with everyone unarmed, of course. See how you make out and let us know. You may be surprised.

I know that I've gone through our house, in daylight, looking for my wife, and she's surprised me. How many others have had similar experiences?

[MLeake]

... house searches are why military and police units have K-9's.

Dogs are much better at searching than we are. If your mindset demands that you search, maybe you should invest in a schutzhund trained shepherd or malinois. Seems to me the K-9 is much less likely to be ambushed than a human would be.

However, the dogs aren't infallible. This K-9 team was ambushed and killed in Polk County, FL three years ago, while responding to the shooting of an officer.

http://www.policek9.com/html/matt_williams.html

Granted, this happened in the woods, not in a house, but it's a reminder that trained professionals, complete with body armor and trained dog, can still lose.

[howwie]

Never had to clear my house thinking I had a real BG problem, but in practice clearings I notice all kinds of things that tell me I shouldn't have moved out of my bedroom. For instance, as soon as I cleared my end of the house and moved into the den there were plenty of dangers. My front porch goes across the whole house, BG's could be behind the windows or front door aiming as I enter from my bedroom, the entrance to kitchen is large but in aiming that way, I could easily shoot towards the kid's rooms. My plan is wife on 911 in corner of saferoom, me watching livingroom from saftey of my room w/ the 12 ga. They can't get to my kids or to my wife without me seeing them first.

[NightSight]

Thanks so far for the good input. I would like to avoid this turning into a stay put or go seach thread. We've all been down that road and discussed it. Please stick to providing information on what you would say in the aftermath of a shooting and whether the idea of a script makes sense. Thanks guys.

[freakshow10mm]

If someone is breaking into my house, the last thing I'm worried about is 911. First thing is grab my 1911, then worry about 911.

This is life. No scripts.

One thing I learned the easy way is to tell the operator to have the cop blip the siren when they arrive.

[MLeake]

While I don't mean to exacerbate thread veer, I will point out that the decision to search or not will directly impact the information you need to provide to 911, and will also impact your testimony after the fact.

So, while we can stop discussing search tactics, that shouldn't kill discussion over what info to relay in the event the decision is made to search. This also includes the means of communication that might be used by the searcher.

[NightSight]

MLeake - Point well taken. I value the input.

[Slopemeno]

Anybody here ever uttered these words to the 911 operator "Suspect present.."?

I have. it was about 4:30 AM, and you could hear patrol cars go to wide-open throttle for about a 1-mile radius. Five cars were there in about 1 minute.

Here's an exercise for the "I want to search" crowd. Go find your local paintball field, and go bunkering. Try to clear every structure on the field. Let us know how it went.

Stay put, call the cops, and give them a brief, accurate description of what they're facing.

[koolminx]

What world do we live in where where people coming to your house at night to burglarize things are doing it like Nato Commando Units when infiltrating house to house searches for terrorists?

1: If you notice a break in, it's because the perp is a dumb criminal, 90% of your home break in's, the criminals are doing it because they think you are NOT home, 99% of those 90% are stupid.

2: If you do NOT notice the break in, (One would not likely notice MI6 or the Mossad breaking into your home at night), then there is nothing you can do about it, and you wake up to find your stuff missing or gone through etc... Therefore, there is no reason to clear the home like you were Keifer Sutherland on 24.

What I'm saying is, Criminals dumb enough to wake you will be easily noticeable as to their whereabouts and possible numbers. But those same perps, being retarded to begin with will not know your number nor if you're armed or not. How many Intelligent criminals actually break into a home when they know the owner is there? It's easier to tell if there's an occupant than it is to tell if the occupant is armed....

[MLeake]

... google "home invasion robbery."

Many of these happen to drug dealers, but not all. Last week, and 80 year old man was robbed and beaten.

http://www.wfsb.com/news/21184454/detail.html

Sheriff's deputies have indicated to my best friend up near Knoxville, TN, that these crimes are on the rise up there. They've also been on the rise in the Atlanta and Orlando areas.

Are the odds high that this will happen to any one individual? No.

Are the odds of any given burglary devolving into this sort of situation high enough that one should treat it as a real possibility? I think so, but maybe that's just me.

[Tom Servo]

Let the threat come to you. If you have to shoot do so, but make sure you can see your target.
Exactly. A firearm is a means to help me keep control of my circumstances. The operative word is "control."

If I do room-to-room searches following a noise, I'm having to keep constant 360° situational awareness. That's hard to do when I'm still rubbing the eye boogers out from just waking up :)

It's much easier to cover a single door with only one axis of potential fire. Like anything, of course, this depends on how and when the situation presents itself.

Now, back to the original topic. If I'm the one calling 911, then I'm still standing, and the threat has abated. The 911 call is not the time for me to make my case for self-defense. I need to tell the dispatcher what the officers can expect when they arrive.

For example:

"There has been a shooting at 123 Happy Flower Court. I am the homeowner. I am uninjured, but [x] individuals have suffered wounds and are in need of medical attention. The situation is under control, and there is no threat to first responders. Please have the officers announce themselves audibly, and I will be waiting in the living room to the right of the front door."

Be wary of adrenaline, as you will be on the verge of panic. Resist the urge to tell anything not strictly relevant to the 911 dispatcher, as there's a good possibility those recordings will be heard in court.

//

Just read MLeake's link, and yow!

Needs' nose was broken and his pickup truck, a computer and credit cards were taken.

Four days later, Needs was shot in the hand during a self-defense lesson. A 9 mm pistol went off as one of his sons was loading it.

[Yankee Traveler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

My first try with a link...I hope it works...
An interesting take on what to say to cops, and how they are trained to turn misconstrue everything. For those in LE, there is a part 2 link from a LE officer that disputes the first part. I take both with a grain of salt and hope that I never have to be judged fro defending my family/self.

FWIW, someone else posted this a few months ago and I saved the link. I do not have time to search youtube and others for this stuff, My boss would kill me. I can only regurgitate.

Credit where it is due...

[jgcoastie]

Modified to suit my locale (and humor)..

"Military Police."

"Hey, this is (name) at (address). Get your butts across the street, somebody's broken into my house! I'll be the completely naked guy holding a gun, I'm pretty sure whoever broke in is in the living room and he probably has clothes on. I'll be in the master bedroom with my wife, kids and dog. Break the door down if you need to, it ain't mine anyway. Announce yourselves before coming in the master bedroom door, I'd hate to shoot one of you fellas."

:p

[fiddletown]

...An interesting take on what to say to cops, and how they are trained to turn misconstrue everything. For those in LE, there is a part 2 link from a LE officer that disputes the first part. I take both with a grain of salt and hope that I never have to be judged fro defending my family/self...Just consider that the video is discussing the right to remain silent in general terms in connection with a generic police encounter.

Ordinarily when one is charged with a crime, the prosecutor must prove the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. If, for example, the crime is some form of aggravated assault with a gun (the accused shot someone), the prosecutor must prove (1) it was you who shot him; and (2) you intended to shoot him. The usual defenses are (1) I wasn't there and you can't prove that I was (alibi); (2) it wasn't me and you can't prove that it was (some other dude done it); and (3) it was an accident. So you keep quiet to avoid giving anything away that could help the prosecution prove its case.

If you have used force in self defense, you will wind up effectively admitting that (1) you shot the guy; and (2) you intended to shoot him. Your defense is that you were legally justified. You will need to present evidence demonstrating prima facie that you met the legal standard for justified use of lethal force. Certainly, if you can't say the right things, it's better to say nothing. But if you can say the right things, that's better yet. See post 10.

[Glenn Dee]

What to say to the 911 Operator?... how about something like this... " Hello Please send police to XXX main st at main and minor st. it's the last pink pink house on the left. With the swing set on the front yard. Someone broke into my house, and I fired a/some shots at him. I'm wearing baby blue pajama's, and bunny rabbit slippers. Please hurry... I'm afraid.." Dont hang up until police arrive.

The police will need as much information as possible to make a quick response. It's also important to give your own description to the 911 operator. When the police arrive..communicate with them,.. and put your gun in your holster or pocket. Oh yeah...let them take the gun from you... dont offer it to them.

As far as clearing the house? Often the homeowner has no choice. Many of us have children.. I'm gonna check on my kids... Elderly parents?... gotta make sure they are OK.

[armoredman]

Glenn, I have to draw the line at the bunny slippers...clashes with the Superman underoos.:D

[Tom Servo]

I jump out wearing these, and I guarantee I'll never have to fire a shot:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2Zhi1YJGzPg/SKXNwq8q1wI/AAAAAAAAAbY/NdHV-mBitzw/s400/boba+fett+underoos.jpg

Heck, I'd scare me in those. :rolleyes:

[Tennessee Gentleman]

As to the script for the aftermath I will share what my CCW instructor told us to do.

Immediately after the shooting and the police arrive, tell them you are experiencing chest pains and need to go to the hospital right away.

While riding there in the ambulance call your lawyer!;)

[Nnobby45]

An organization founded by the likes of Marty and Gila Hayes, John Farnum, Mas Ayoob, Dennis Teuller, etc., might be what you're looking for.

Their approach comes from lawyers who handle such matters and may differ a great deal from advice from those who mean well. There's some good advice on this thread and some---well, maybe not so good.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/default.html

[fiddletown]

...Immediately after the shooting and the police arrive, tell them you are experiencing chest pains and need to go to the hospital right away....A truly lousy idea, IMHO. First, you'll run up a big medical bill (even with insurance). You'll be subjected to a bunch of medical tests and given a bunch of drugs, all or which can be bad for you if you don't really need them.

But most importantly, Never Lie. Clam up if you wish, but if you say anything, make sure it's the truth. A lie can very effectively be used against you. First, telling a lie (like running) will be taken as a sign of a guilty conscience, i. e., guilt. Second, a lie destroys your credibility, and anything you say thereafter will be suspect. And if you think that you can lie without getting found out, I wouldn't bet on it.

[cschwanz]

Should the day ever come, after calling 911 and asking for an officer and an ambulance, there are a couple things i would say:

-he attacked me and i will sign the complaint saying so.

- here is the evidence to show he attacked me (gun, knife, whatever)

-there is the witness/witness that saw things happen

-I will be of full cooperation in 24 hours after i have time to talk to a lawyer


Im a fan of not talking to the police without calming down and talking to counsel, but at the same time, the person who immediately says "I WANT MY LAWYER" looks like they may have something to hide.

[NightSight]

Nnobby45,

That link is very interesting. Are you currently a member?? Although $85 a year seems a little steep, it would be well worth it if you ever were involved in a shooting. Thanks for the information!

[Tennessee Gentleman]

A truly lousy idea, IMHO. First, you'll run up a big medical bill (even with insurance). You'll be subjected to a bunch of medical tests and given a bunch of drugs, all or which can be bad for you if you don't really need them.

Maybe. An emergency room visit won't cost me a dime as my insurance pays100% of those charges and many policies do the same. Not sure you are right about getting those drugs without some tests being run first but I am not a Doc so I don't know. What it does do is get you away from the scene and makes it harder to run your mouth to the police. Not sure also how that could be used against you either. If you make the call and get the police there going to the hospital is not running away and they can't use against you what you don't say.

[fiddletown]

...Not sure you are right about getting those drugs without some tests being run first but I am not a Doc so I don't know....Well, when I had my heart attack, the first thing the EMTs did was give me nitroglycerin and start an IV. I'm not sure what was in the IV. When I got to the ER, they drew blood for a blood test and gave me morphine.

...Not sure also how that could be used against you either....A lie will always be used against you. It's understood to be sign of a guilty conscience and calls into question your veracity. If you'd lie about one thing, you'd lie about others.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

My understanding is that adrenalin rushes can mimick heart attack symptoms.
So, going to the hospital to get checked out is prefectly plausible after such a horrific experience. I disagree with your idea it would be used against you but just my .02 cents again unless you ran your mouth but I think by the you might have calmed down enough after a while away from the scene to be a bit more careful about what you would say.

[MLeake]

Simple statement: "He attacked me. I feared for my life. These people are witnesses (if applicable). I'm pretty shaken up right now. I'll talk to you more tomorrow, after I consult with my attorney."

At that point, any questioning by the police should stop. They may arrest you, or they may not, but they should not ask further questions once you've stated the desire for an attorney.

No need to fake a medical incident. Like others have said, it's hard to see how that would benefit you, and easy to see how it could bite you.

Put it another way: your CCW course instructor recommended this trick. Have you asked your lawyer what his opinion is of such a tactic?

[R1145]

Don't worry about it: Use common sense, be honest and, yes, request an attorney immediately. After that, just don't say anything about the incident.

Ultimately, any attempt to evade, lie, tamper with evidence, etc., is likely to be far more harmful legally than honest statements made in the heat of the moment.

Even "having a script" or the appearance of premeditation could be used against you.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Simple statement: "He attacked me. I feared for my life. These people are witnesses (if applicable). I'm pretty shaken up right now. I'll talk to you more tomorrow, after I consult with my attorney." At that point, any questioning by the police should stop.

Good advice. I think my CCW instructor (and I am not speaking for him) may have thought that under duress and stress folk tend to blab and say things that may be used against them later on that they wouldn't say if not under said stress. So, better to remove yourself from the scene in a way that won't be seen as running away since the police on on site.

your CCW course instructor recommended this trick. Have you asked your lawyer what his opinion is of such a tactic?

Thanks for bringing that up as I had forgot. I did ask a good friend of mine about that very idea and he is a rather prominent criminal defense lawyer here (also former state public defender) and he just smiled and said "I think you have it down well". So yeah I did do that.

[fiddletown]

...going to the hospital to get checked out is prefectly plausible after such a horrific experience. ...Not if in fact you were not actually experiencing symptoms. You have already stated that you would fabricate your claim of chest pains to buy time. That's lying in anyone's book.

...I disagree with your idea it would be used against you but just my .02 cents...You can disagree, but lying will always be used against you. Once you are caught in a lie, you are a liar. You may think you won't get caught, and maybe you won't. But that's a different question. And liars frequently get found out.

In addition, you have now called for an ambulance you really don't need. Depending on the availability of emergency medical services in your community, you have taken an ambulance out of service and perhaps delayed response to someone who really is gravely sick or injured and really needs one.

You're also now using space and resources in an ER -- space and resources you really don't need. You may be thereby delaying care to someone who really is sick or injured.

And you're going to file an insurance claim for emergency medical services which you knew you really didn't need. That's insurance fraud and grand larceny.

So when all that is discovered, you now become a callous, lying monster wasting limited emergency medical resources so you can duck talking with police (when you merely have to invoke your right to remain silent) and delaying the availability of those services for people who may really need them. You also expect your medical insurance to pay for your little ruse, even though they have no responsibility to pay for unnecessary service used for the purpose of temporarily evading police questioning; and thus you are stealing from your medical insurance.

But nonetheless you will expect the police, the DA, the grand jury and probably a trial jury to believe your claim that you were an innocent victim forced by the criminal act of another to use violence as a last resort to save your life?

...I did ask a good friend of mine about that very idea and he is a rather prominent criminal defense lawyer here (also former state public defender) and he just smiled and said "I think you have it down well"...But here is another lawyer who thinks it's a lousy idea.

[Yankee Traveler]

I prefer MLeake's Idea to lieing any way you slice it. And that goes for Justifiable shooting (BG is pointing his own gun at you), accidental shooting (BG Throws his gun down when confronted but you accidently discharge), or Negligent shooting (BG turns to flee when confronted and takes a round in the back).

Lieing cheating and stealing are all things the BG's do. And adolescents...

[Tennessee Gentleman]

fiddletown, How do you REALLY feel about this?:p Objections noted counselor;)

[Glenn Dee]

Hey Fella's... While working as a police officer, and as a detective I've had occasion to investigate shootings by both police and civilians. I'd like to share my own take on it. The aftermath that is. People when nervous or riding an adrenaline high tend to say too much and in the wrong sequence. There's nothing wrong with telling the police that you have to gather your thoughts." I need to calm down and get myself together". " I'm going to tell you what happened... just give me a few minutes". The police thrive on information. If you give them some they will usually go off to a corner and play nice. A self defense shooting is an affermative defence. That means that in order to claim self defense you must first admit to the shooting. Otherwise the Police MUST handle it as though it is a crime. And treat you as a perpetrator. Using tired over used lines such as " I was in fear for my life", or " He came at me so I shot him"... and the ever faithfull " he had a metalic object in his hand"... None of that will wash... My personal recomendation is this... Tell the truth, tell the basics.. " He had a GUN!!!" I thought he would kill me"... "I fired some shots.. I'm not really sure how many" Just because you were involved in a shooting dont mean you should go comatose, or turn into a blithering idiot. You have controlled the most desperate situation of your life... you can handle the police... IMHO.. 99% of the time the crime scene investigation and fornsics will prove your story true.:D

[OldMarksman]

A self defense shooting is an affermative defence. That means that in order to claim self defense you must first admit to the shooting. Otherwise the Police MUST handle it as though it is a crime. And treat you as a perpetrator. Using tired over used lines such as " I was in fear for my life", or " He came at me so I shot him"... and the ever faithfull " he had a metalic object in his hand"... None of that will wash...

Ayoob recommends pointing out the assailant and identifying him as such, same RE: witnesses and evidence, identifying yourself as the victim, and stating that you will sign the complaint.

That should at least help get things off on the right foot.

Comment, Glenn?

[Skans]

Glenn Dee, I have to say that I like your approach the best. This makes a ton of sense.

[5whiskey]

Yeah, I kinda think having too much of a "script" would like a little odd.

But to run over these things in your head to prepare for the moment... not at all. It's called good planning.

I do and I do not believe in the safe room method. I think it is an excellent idea to account for family, get them together, scream and yell warning intruder, and even fire a warning shot. If that doesn't do the trick... hell it's hard to know what to do. I think 99 times out of a hundred a warning shot would jar said goofball into thinking that "this crap isn't worth it".

For me, though, I can't do the safe room. Other family members on opposite end of house. SOOOOO; I'm in the undesirable home defense situation where I have to be very concerned about fields of fire and I have to move about to consolidate the family. Safe rooms are great, but they can't always apply.


Everyone has given excellent advice, IMHO, about speaking with the police. Just tell them flat out... "this is my house, he is an intruder and I don't know him, he invaded my home, and I would like to calm down and collect myself before I discuss details." Good advice men.

[Glenn Dee]

Hey again Fella's

Massad Ayoob ?... ummm yeah. well... Ummm. RIGHT!!!.. OK... Ayoob is a very learned man and has studied on this subject to a science. I believe that Mr.Ayoob's area of expertice is in the courtroom testifying for the defense, or maybe the prosicution.. whoever is footing the bill. If you find yourself in a criminal courtroom... your in deep deep doo doo. OK let me pass on what a lawyer representing a police officer involved in a shooting once told me. " A shooting situation is like being lost in the woods... you dont go around lighting fires ( talk too much).. you just find your way out" In other words keep it simple, keep it to the truth. Dont speculate. You should be ahh judged by the thoughts in your head at the time of the shooting. Not by the words you say afterwards.

As far as Identifying the perp?.. you should have done that in the 911 call as I posted earler. You should have also made it clear that you are the victim in that 911 call Thats another reason it's real important to give your own description as well as the perp... Remember that 911 call will set the tone for the police when they arrive. I dont think you should have to look at the dead/wounded perp. Most people arent ready to see the damage they have done with a firearm. It's damn ugly... you dont want that bouncing around in your head for the next X number of years. Hanging around the body when you should be seeking the comfort of your family and friends will only make some investigators suspicious.

OK Enough of my ranting.. Please excuse my spelling..lol I didnt pay attention in school

Thanks Glenn Dee :D

[BikerRN]

For those that wish to go searching for the badguy;

Have fun with that. You just might find what you are looking for.

Biker

[goldfacade]

This is a link that is relevant to this discussion. It is somewhat lengthly but very informative. If your willing watch part 2 as this is a police officer saying the same thing.

Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related

EDIT: didnt read all the posts, so I linked an already linked video. Sorry. I guess great minds think alike.

[Nnobby45]

Nnobby45,

That link is very interesting. Are you currently a member?? Although $85 a year seems a little steep, it would be well worth it if you ever were involved in a shooting. Thanks for the information! ..............


Yes, I am a member. The three tapes alone (that come with membership) debunk a lot of commonly believed fallacies that can land you in jail.

Makes it easy to pick out those who know what they're talking about---and those who might not.:D

There are good lawyers who don't necessarily believe in clamming up, demanding a lawyer, saying nothing, and doing an excellent imitation of a guilty criminal. Nor do they believe in blabbing away and incriminating yourself.

[fiddletown]

This is a link that is relevant to this discussion. It is somewhat lengthly but very informative. If your willing watch part 2 as this is a police officer saying the same thing.See post #26.

[Lee Lapin]

In the days before Enhanced 9-1-1, I would have said that one component of your script should be your physical address and phone number, typed or printed clearly and affixed to or near the phone in a place it couldn't be obscured.

Once upon a time in the past I worked dispatch for a short while, and I'll never forget the late-night call where the caller roared "THERE'S A FIRE OUT HERE!!" and slammed the phone receiver back into the cradle.

Adrenaline makes people do funny things, ya know? We were supported by a volunteer fire department, and since I wasn't sure how best to respond to that call, I phoned the chief at home and asked him. He told me to page everyone to the fire department and have them stand by, that if there really was a fire we'd find out where it was sooner or later.

I did, and we did, and I was able to dispatch the trucks after a few precious minutes dribbled by.

If you live in a place that lacks enhanced 9-1-1 (are there still such places in the USA?) then it would still be a good idea. And even if you have it, it might not hurt. It might not be you or a family member who has to call it in, and it might be good to be able to verify the address and phone number if needed. And someone might forget their own address or phone number under pressure as well.

Usually a dispatcher will elecit the information they need from you, they're trained to do that. The thing is to keep control of yourself, and be clear about what you're saying. And if you were involved in a defensive shooting, it's better IMO to say things like "There's been a shooting at 123 A Street, I need police, paramedics and an ambulance." It's a good idea to ID yourself as the homeowner/good guy as well, and give a description of what you look like and what you're wearing.

And have your hands empty when the LEOs show up...

At that point, the best training I've ever gotten on the subject came from the lecture noted at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . If you need an ATSA-speak dictionary to get through the notes, I posted one at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5561615&postcount=10 .

DW and I are also members of USCCA, and recommend it.

FWIW,

lpl

[Glenn Dee]

If your suspicious of the police... they'll probably be suspicious of you... No matter what you say or dont say... they will figure out what happened. If you did nothing wrong... you did nothing wrong. NEVER EVER PANIC !!!! EVER. If you made a mistake.. you made a mistake... If your not sure about something?... your not sure about something. Above all... MAKE SURE YOUR FAMILY IS OK.

[Antipitas]

The first bit of good advice was here:
Personally, I'll go along with what Massad Ayoob recommends and has taught me in his LFI-I class and be prepared to say the following:

1. That person attacked me.
2. I will sign a complaint.
3. There is evidence (pointing to evidence).
4. There are witnesses (pointing to witnesses).
5. I won't say anything more now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've talked with my lawyer.

That identifies me as the victim, helps assure that evidence and witnesses aren't overlooked and invokes my right to thereafter remain silent.
I agree with this almost 100%, for any circumstance outside of a home invasion. The only thing I would add, is to be the first to call 911. That establishes your credibility right away.

Here, we are talking specifically about a home invasion scenario. Therefore the above needs to be modified.

Since most States do recognize that a homeowner/occupant has a right to defend hearth and home, you established that by calling 911 and identifying yourself, right? - You did stay on the phone until the police have arrived, didn't you?

1. You called 911 to report a break-in.
2. You identified yourself (and family) as the owner/occupant of the home.
3. You stayed on the phone until the police told you to hang up.
4. At the moment the police arrived, you holstered your firearm or put it down and backed away from it, unless you are holding the suspect at gunpoint - which is something that you should have told the 911 operator and made sure that the operator has relayed that information to the responders.
4a. If you are holding a suspect at gunpoint and the responder tells you to drop your weapon... Drop The Damn Thing! Any other move will get you shot.
5. Give a very brief account of what happened, when asked by the officer.
6. After that, tell the officer (should they persist in asking questions) that you need to calm down and you will be glad to talk to them tomorrow (making sure you talk to an attorney first).

Home invasions are a completely different thing than a defense on the street, which is what Mr. Ayoob is addressing. Therefore the response is going to be somewhat different. Some facts will already be in evidence, that won't be there in a street confrontation.

The aftermath is what we are addressing, not what is going on during the actual break-in. You want to do a one-man house-clearing? That be on you and you alone.

[2003flht]

I hope this is okay to post here. I received this article from Michael potter (EagleFiveZero@gmail.com) awhile ago. Its quite the reading. Explains what to do AFTER a self defense shooting...

Thought i would share with you all too.....

[38super]

My name is this and I wish to speak to a with a lawyer. Why, bacause everything you say will be incorrect. See affects of tachypshia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachypsychia

[Antipitas]

38Super, your approach is guaranteed to get you hauled off to jail, while the police sort things out. Granted that this might happen anyway, but why force that outcome?

First and foremost, the police are looking for the victim(s), so you want to identify yourself as such. Immediately.

[38super]

I would prefer going to jail than changing my statement. After a gunfight, you will forget many vital details including time and distance.

You do not want to alter your statement, as it will “imply” that you were lying.

Many people create unnecessarily hassle for themselves due to their training. I have been to many shootings, and you hear this all so often. From a witness, I heard “die mother foocker” and then 3 shots rang out.

Please guys, practice that when on draw your firearm, even dry fire, shout STOP very loud and let it become second nature, otherwise you will end up saying something else which you will later regret.

I used to get strange looks at the range, but it has become second nature for me, and proudly my fellow shooters who I have converted.:D

[OldMarksman]

I would prefer going to jail than changing my statement.
Problem is, the conditions and appearances that would precipitate your arrest can also get the investigation off on the wrong foot and lead to the disappearance of witnesses and the failure to identify evidence at the scene. Better to identify yourself and the perp and point out witnesses and evidence while you have the chance.

After a gunfight, you will forget many vital details including time and distance. I see nothing in the posts by Antitipas and fiddletown that even remotely suggest mentioning vital details including time and distance.

You do not want to alter your statement, as it will “imply” that you were lying.

Maybe and maybe not, but why would one ever want to alter a statement to the effect that a person attacked him and that he will sign a complaint, or that identifies witnesses and evidence?

[38super]

Oldmarksman,

After a gunfight, everything goes blurry. It is important to identify yourself, and say nothing more. That’s my opinion on it and certainly well within my rights.

[Glenn Dee]

Just a few more tid bits... The police dont have to advise you of your rights...
Keep it simple... Dont lie. Get with family, and friends... Dont worry so much... the dangerous part is over.
As far as advice from lawyers, and cops... consider the source.

[accessLEO]

The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."
- Robert Peel

:confused:OPERATOR: 911 What/Where is your emergency?
:eek:CALLER: There was a shooting (limit the conversation to Identifying/description of yourself and, not the details of the shooting incident. Give an address/location)
CALLER: CLICK(Hang up the phone)
NOTE: From the ringing of the phone, to everything you say and the click of the phone, when you hanged up, are recorded. Anything you say, can be use against you in the court of the law.
CALLER: If there is NO LONGER ANY THREAT, have your firearm out of public display (but immediately accessible to any emergency threat of your life and love ones)

Attend(optional)to the person's(perp's/victim's)needs. This action of concerns, will make you look good in the eyes of the law.

Lots of emergency people will be at your shooting scene/place before you know it

AT THE SCENE OF SHOOTING
:cool:OFFICER: Tell me what happened?(psychological and exploratory open ended question)
:eek:Caller/Shooter(You are now a person of interest/Suspect)
Tell the officer your name and other identifying information about yourself.
Click ME!->Tell the officer you would like to speak to your/an attorney (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/practical/criminal/interrogation_lawyer.html)(everything you say to the officer can be use against you in court)
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!! Click me->It's your right under the law (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/practical/criminal/miranda_rights.html)

From now on, until everything is settled,nobody else but, your lawyer is your best friend.

Disclaimer:
This is not a legal advise. Just a preferable statement & inter-action to protect yourself from any legal ramification.;)

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[Wagonman]

Sweet JG. Naked?!?!? :confused::eek::D

Always make sure you verbalize you are in fear of being killed or seriously injured on the 911 call and upon LEs arrival "I was in fear for my life and I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention" then say nothing else until you consult counsel.

[fiddletown]

...I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention...A lousy idea if it's not true. Never lie. Once you are caught in a liar, you are a liar; and your credibility is gone.

See post 41.

[jgcoastie]

Sweet JG. Naked?!?!? :confused::eek::D

Makes for easy identification... :D:cool:

[Tennessee Gentleman]

"I was in fear for my life and I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention"

I knew I wasn't the only one who had heard that one:D

[greensteelforge]

I'd say that if you intend to use deadly force to defend your home and family, you would do very well to get to know your local chief of police, and get his/her take on the question. There is no doubt that you need to phrase things carefully in the event of a shooting. Generally, I think the best thing to do is to keep your mouth shut on the specifics until you have a lawyer present to advise you, stick to the pertinent information (number of people in the house, location, and disposition). Know the laws that govern your area, an appropriate statement will vary widely between Texas and Minnesota. Also, I agree with those who have advised against searching your home while an intrusion is in progress. Tactically speaking, the idea is to survive, and make sure those you are protecting survive, seeking out a firefight will not advance this goal. Most states have very sticky definitions for what constitutes self defense, actively pursuing and engaging an intruder can put you on the wrong side of the law (whether you are aware of, agree with, or like the law). I have never heard of any training that would advise engaging an unknown enemy, or clearing a building solo.

[fiddletown]

I knew I wasn't the only one who had heard that one...And it's still a lousy idea.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

You are so strict:p

[fiddletown]

You are so strictThat's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.:D

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Don't mail out the wedding invitations!

[Wagonman]

Even if it was a "fib" a fact not in evidence, how would it be proven?

I am sure you get hooked up to a EKG after a shooting the QRS will be fast enough to warrant 10 MMg of valium and you cannot be questioned while drugged. It is a strategy to get some breathing room after a traumatic incident.

What is your downside? Don't preach a strain on EMS. you pay taxes and you deserve service.

[MLeake]

... if you express the desire for an attorney's presence. And that way, you don't start things out by lying.

And paying taxes has nothing to do with the morality of tying up an ambulance and EMT so that they can't respond to actual medical cases. It has nothing to do with "deserving service" and everything to do with not being slimy.

[fiddletown]

Even if it was a "fib" a fact not in evidence, how would it be proven?

I am sure you get hooked up to a EKG after a shooting the QRS will be fast enough to warrant 10 MMg of valium and you cannot be questioned while drugged. It is a strategy to get some breathing room after a traumatic incident....You want to try your luck? It's a shabby thing to do. It's the sort of thing that a guilty person would do.

As to how it would be proven, well one possibility is they find out you planned to do such a thing by reading your posts on TFL. Your Internet posts would be discoverable and admissible to show, among other things, intent, state of mind and premeditation.

...What is your downside?...Your downside is that you're caught in your lie, everybody now knows that you're a liar; so nobody believes your self defense story. So now you're convicted of manslaughter, and you go to prison.

...Don't preach a strain on EMS. you pay taxes and you deserve service.... No you don't. You have no medical need.

Whatever else you do, don't run and don't lie.

[Wagonman]

I have to take issue it is not unreasonable after a traumatic incident to be checked out by a doctor. Even if my posts are discovered apres' shooting I am not making any kind of admission of guilt I am stating that you should be checked out to make sure you are not having a stress induced cardiac arrest and avail your self of any pain reliever that is authorized by ALS SMOs as a preventive measure.

In fact, that is one of the protocols followed by certain pro Police municipalities, protects against liability for the city and excited utterances by a Copper who was just in a life or death situation. I urge every TC victim to at least have the medics check them out just to make sure they are ok what is the issue with seeking medical attention in an incident of a justified shooting. why is it always the Bad Guy that is protected not the Good Guy.

It is not slimy to do everything in your power to protect yourself, you were put in this position by circumstance or in Copper's case by your duty. You can rest assured the BG will be doing everything in their power to get the upper hand. So don't be the noblest convicted Man slaughterer or loser of a civl suit or unemployed Cop

[fiddletown]

...you should be checked out to make sure you are not having a stress induced cardiac arrest and avail your self of any pain reliever that is authorized by ALS SMOs as a preventive measure....It is not slimy to do everything in your power to protect yourself, you were put in this position by circumstance...You're backtracking, and it won't wash. Your asking for medical care has nothing to do with your concern for your health. You've specifically stated that you are recommending seeking urgent medical care without regards to any medical need and for the purpose of delaying talking with police.

In post 64 you wrote....Always make sure you verbalize you are in fear of being killed or seriously injured on the 911 call and upon LEs arrival "I was in fear for my life and I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention" .....So if this is something you should always to, it's obviously without regard to whether you are actually having chest pains.

In post 73 you wrote...I am sure you get hooked up to a EKG after a shooting the QRS will be fast enough to warrant 10 MMg of valium and you cannot be questioned while drugged. It is a strategy to get some breathing room after a traumatic incident....You've flat out said that asking for medical care is a ruse to temporarily avoid talking with police.

You absolutely need to preserve your credibility. Once you are caught in a lie, your credibility is pretty much out the window. Your testimony about what happened will usually be the principal evidence supporting your claim that you were justified in resorting to lethal violence. Lying will not help.

Yes, you have a right to protect yourself from police questioning immediately after a traumatic event. But you don't have to lie. Invoke your right to remain silent, ask for a lawyer or say the things that Massad Ayoob recommends. But don't lie.

As Glenn Dee wrote... Dont lie....

[Wagonman]

I am not backtracking. I unequivocally state that after a self defense shooting I would advise not speaking to the Police until I have been medically examined. Saying "I have chest pains" is short hand for I need medical attention. "I am having trouble breathing" is fine also. because if you think you will be feeling ok after a shooting you aren't facing reality. The idea is to give you an amount of time to relax, think, and wait for an attorney.

I am kinda at a loss at the disagreement with an innocuous bit of advice. We (the police) have had training in interrogation tactics and you are not always gonna get a pro CCW Copper responding. so my ADVICE is to delay the interrogation until you are in a better position from a chemical cocktail and a legal representation point of view.

[MLeake]

... the police can't make me do so.

If I'm detained, Miranda applies.

If I'm not detained, I can leave at will.

Tricks aren't required.

I'd only request medical assistance if I actually felt medical assistance were required. For legal assistance, I want a lawyer, not an ambulance.

[fiddletown]

...I am kinda at a loss at the disagreement with an innocuous bit of advice....Because it's not innocuous advice. If you need medical attention, by all means get it. But to lie about needing it in order "buy time" (as you have previously put it) is a very bad idea.

And of course delay interrogation, but you need not lie to do it.

I'm kind of at a loss at a police officer suggesting that a victim of a violent crime start off the investigation by telling a lie.

[Wagonman]

You are not telling a lie that is germaine to the investigation. I would posit you are not lying at all just being on the safe side with regard to your health.

I understand Miranda, however, I have seen people not avail themselves of their Miranda protection when the only thing they should say is "I want a lawyer" I am just suggesting something to keep in the back of your mind should the need arise. If my suggestion injures your sense of right and wrong I apologize.

[Glenn Dee]

I think that some of us are putting the cart before the horse. Were being convicted in our minds before the investigation begins. A shooting investigation is almost always conducted by 3 or 4 people. The first officer, his supervisor, the investigator, possibly his supervisor, and at least one forensics tech. 99% of the time they will figure out exactly what happened. Most often they will ask the shooter " what happened?" Giving a simple statement such as "Some guy broke in my picture window, and came in screaming, waving a crow bar" No reason to go into details... If the Investigator asks detailed questions like "how tall was he?" " what was he wearing?", "What exactly was he saying?" at that point you may want to beg off of the questioning, and ask to do it at a later time. I'ts OK to be upset... It's OK to stop to gather your thoughts. No one can tell you how long that should take. Making a rehersed sounding statement will only sound suspicious. Everything thats being suggested here has been tried before. If you need medical attention... you need medical attention. If you dont have anything to say.... say nothing. If you feel that you need a lawyer, by all means tell them you want a lawyer. JUST DONT LIE!!! Dont overcomplicate the situation. Keep it simple, and to the truth... the truth can be proven.... so can a lie

[fiddletown]

...If my suggestion injures your sense of right and wrong I apologize. It's not a question of my sense of right and wrong. It's about the practical realities of getting caught up in the legal system.

I have seen lawyers use a past lie, or conduct that one might consider cynical or tricky, to effectively cast doubt on everything someone later says. A lie or a ruse can, and will, be used to attack your credibility. But if you are claiming self defense, it will be important that you be believed. Telling a lie is a lousy way to go about it.

[Wagonman]

How in the world is a prosecutor going to paint a victim of a aggravated assault getting medical attention in a poor light. I am not and would never advise anyone to lie about any aspect of a shooting. I am just passing on a strategy that has been used to protect vulnerable victims in a serious situation. Don't want to take the advice have at it. But, it is still helpful especially for Coppers who Effectively don't have Miranda protection.

[fiddletown]

...I am not and would never advise anyone to lie about any aspect of a shooting....That's your story now, but that's not what you said before. Or are you now trying to make a distinction between lying about the shooting itself and lying about having chest pains afterward as a ruse to avoid the police?

In post 77, we looked at some of your past inconsistent statements. As I've quoted in that post you've advised people to claim chest pains even if the claim is untrue, and you've characterized saying so as a trick to gain time.

And you are also now seeing first hand how your prior, ill considered statements can be used to attack your credibility.

...How in the world is a prosecutor going to paint a victim of a aggravated assault getting medical attention in a poor light....He wouldn't be. He'd be using the victim's lying about it.

...Don't want to take the advice have at it...Of course I won't take it. Why would I consider taking someone's advice to tell a lie and thus jeopardize my credibility.

[Wagonman]

I have gotton some expert advice which has caused me to change my mind regarding CIVILIAN shootings. If you don't think you need medical attention don't request it. But, I would just to be on safe side. Make a short simple statement then remain silent until you receive legal representation. Which is all the request for the medical attention was---not an lie just an aid to keep an over zealous investigator out of your face until you have calmed down.

That said,

That's your story now, but that's not what you said before. Or are you now trying to make a distinction between lying about the shooting itself and lying about having chest pains afterward as a ruse to avoid the police?


No it's not. The fact that you went to the hospital in not germaine to the shooting. You are not lying about the facts of the shooting. Maybe I was too flippant with the chest pains example. It is not a ruse to avoid the police it is a option to delay questioning until you are up for it

He wouldn't be. He'd be using the victim's lying about it.

How in the world would you make that determination?----How do you prove I am not having chest pains?

I am sorry but in the real lawsuit adverse world nobody is going to make an issue of anyone in Police custody obtaining medical attention.

[fiddletown]

Wagonman, I'm glad you got the expert advice.

That said --

...It is not a ruse to avoid the police it is a option to delay questioning...I'm sorry, but I don't understand the difference in this context between a ruse and an option, when the option is based on telling an untruth.

How in the world would you make that determination?...I don't know. But lies have a way of being found out, and when your credibility is so important I submit that it would be foolish to risk your credibility by telling a lie.

[Wagonman]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the difference in this context between a ruse and an option, when the option is based on telling an untruth.



Like I said, I agree that as a CIVILIAN you should not get medical attention unless you FEEL you need it. If it is an untruth it is an untruth or lie that doesn't affect anything or anyone other than giving you a little breathing room.

I don't know. But lies have a way of being found out, and when your credibility is so important I submit that it would be foolish to risk your credibility by telling a lie.

The only way for this lie to be found out is if you were to tell on yourself. Which, ironically is the reason to take a medical "time out" because a lawyer should never allow you to say anything incriminating.

I agreed with you but you still beat the dead horse. :confused:

[Marty Hayes]

Hello all:

Partly because of this thread, I decided to devote the cover article for the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network E-Journal to this particular subject matter. Enjoy.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/NM-Network_11-2009.pdf

[Wagonman]

Very well reasoned article. I would make the case that KISS would be the best advice.

"He threatened my life, I thought he was going to kill me, I attempted to escape he denied me that opportunity." "There is the weapon he used" I called for police assistance for me and EMS assistance for him" "I wish to sign Aggravated Assault complaints against him"

In the case of the On duty Copper involved in a shooting follow whatever advice given by your legal reps.

[Drummer101]

What I was told to do was to be on the phone with the police and while on the phone yell out what room you are in and that you are armed and will shoot if they come in.

I dont think this is the best thing to do though

[Mas Ayoob]

Wagonman, my brother, it sounds as if after four pages we've all reached consensus.

When the stakes on the table are as large as what we're talking about here, consensus is good.

best to all who contributed here,
Mas

[Wagonman]

+1 Mas