Surviving Disaster: Mall Shooting - Full episode

[ZeSpectre]

They posted the full episode of "Surviving Disaster - Mall Shooting" here
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/mall-shooting/34334

Supposedly The intent is to try and tell you what you need to know if you were trapped in a mall with terrorists.

I'm watching it with interest right now.

Edit: Apparently your best survival tool is....duct tape! (no surprise to me!)

[Hard Ball]

M1A rifle with 10 magazines

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Do you usually take that to the mall? Haven't watched show but let's be realistic.

[ZeSpectre]

Well they make good use of several on-hand items like fire extinguishers and duct tape, but I felt they were a little weak on blocking pursuit (they moved a pallet jack full of stuff in front of the door but didn't lower it. If they'd lowered it NOBODY would have gotten through that door.

I was also less than impressed by the notion that a random group of strangers were going to work together and follow orders well enough to overcome a terrorist and get his weapon(s) and ammo.

I think at that point the scenario should have been split into "we got the firearm, here's what we do now" and "we still don't have firearms, here's what we do now".

I do agree that it does an excellent job of turning defeatist "there's nothing I can do" into "Look at all of these possibilities".

[jgcoastie]

The scenario given in this show is a bit of a stretch, but I guess it could happen and the attack might be that well organized...

The best bet would have been to use something to pry open that set of exterior doors or break the handles of them and escape that way..

I don't know how I feel about running around the mall with an AK after the police have been notified of "active shooters with automatic weapons"...

Lunch break is over, I'll watch the rest tonight...

[ZeSpectre]

The scenario given in this show is a bit of a stretch
Agreed but they had to add drama somehow right :rolleyes:

[TailGator]

The download stopped a few minutes in, but when they got to the chained fire escape door, my thought was to establish a defensive position.

Granted that they did not have a weapon, but I would have a handgun, and it seems to me that with only a chained door behind you and those narrow hallways, you could go back to the last corner and use it for cover and control the approach to your position pretty effectively, at least while one of your compadres worked on getting that blasted door open. If I had a good defensive position like that, I don't think I would go back out into another store or the mall.

I'll have to watch the rest when I get it working again, but those were my initial thoughts before the show gummed up.

[MikeGoob]

This is interesting. but Im having a laugh at how the guy is emphasizing 'sight picture' while the AK he retrofitted with a huge sock silencer has no sight picture anymore. And now they're going to use it to get a headshot on a guy over 50 yards away?

[Uncle H]

I haven't watched it yet but I was in mall management for 30+ years and I think I've seen it all (or most of it anyway).

I'll provide a critique after I see it. :D

[Hard Ball]

"The scenario given in this show is a bit of a stretch "

More than just a bit!

[Double Naught Spy]

I have seen 3 of these episodes and while I agree that there is the positive aspect that one should not consider themselves helpless in any situation, the scenarios are overly simplified, contrived if you will, and the notion that you can get a group of people to work together under a high stress situation as shown and with such calmness is just unreal.

I was surprised by how well the folks on the show were able to take back a passenger jet from hijackers so efficiently without the pilot hijacker crashing the plane first.

The show's premise is good and it has some good ideas, but it also presupposes that you have a lot of information about places and resources that you might not have in real life.

I look forward to Uncle H's critique.

The host mentions several active shooter incidents and notes that the shooters were wanting to draw attention to their cause. That may or may not be the case and it does really matter as to their motivation. In 1985, Sylvia Seegrist shot up the Springfield Mall in PA. She had no cause per se, but was mentally unstable. Dominick S. Maldonado didn't have some grand cause he was trying to gain attention for either (Tacoma Mall).

In the TV episode, the mall is attacked by highly skilled terrorists. Note that mall shootings are often not by highly skilled terrorists. The host notes that people should not bunch up, and then a couple of minutes later is bunched up with people, herding them in a leapfrog fashion, cover to cover.

The host then notes that the goal is escape as all mall stores are required to have a fire exit in the back. Amazingly, the group get access to the fire escape hallways behind the store they exited and it is loaded with junk including a pallet cart with boxes on it. It could happen, but the malls I worked in had to have those areas remaining clear, by law.

I don't understand an episode on mall shootings interviewing the Columbine survivor. Why could they not find mall shooting survivors to have as spokespeople?

The host amazingly is able to find a computer with internet access and a printer and prints off maps of the mall that include showing the freight elevator.

They get a video camera to use as a periscope. Now, how many video cameras on display are going to have a charged battery inside them? Usually they are powered by an exernal source. Great how their camera has night vision. Isn't that convenient? Of course they need that because the mall's power is cut off. However, the mall seems largely void of emergency lighting...which should be present.

Just how many phone books is a store going to have to fill a metal suitcase to use as a shield?

It is also convenient how all the people involved in the show are young, athletic, and quite capable.

Interesting how the attackers are well armed and trained, "you" are not, but how easily the loan hunter gunman was overcome because he acted stupidly when the group was cornered inside a store.

The kevlvar body armor they put on isn't going to stop "high powered rifle" bullets.

The racking procedure to clear a malfunction will not always work as described.

So they are in the mall and have to get past a "sniper" who is wearing body armor. Since he is wearing kevlar, they are going to have to make a head shot. Once again, soft kevlar body armor isn't going to be stopping AK47 rounds. The head shot was a bit overly dramatic.

So they have to shoot him quietly and so they make a silencer by placing fabric over the barrel. Somehow, I don't see that being effective.

The expert comes on and says that if you fight, you may win but that if you don't fight, you are certain to lose. That is just plain wrong. Many folks survive without fighting. It may not be the best strategy in all cases, but it often works just fine, especially those who evade and hide well.

It is great how a person who knows nothing about an AK47 is going to make a head shot across the mall with his first shot, a distance of about 50 yards.

Amazing how the well trained terrorists are unable to hit the good guys when they are all bunched up after killing the sniper and taking his gear.

Funny how they can make a head shot at 50 yards but can't hit a bad guy running straight at them at 30.

Lucky they had a woman with them for the tampon to stop the bleeding. What happens if you don't have a woman in your group?

Amazing the power wasn't cut to the elevator, but was everywhere else. Those arriving police think of everything.

Elevators are kill boxes. Waiting for the elevator to open and thinking the cops will be there an not bad guys is a bit overly fortuitous.

Funny how the cops' MP5s (9mm) apparently had no problem in taking out the suspects in body armor.

Otherwise, a good show.

[SoupieXX75]

This is interesting. but Im having a laugh at how the guy is emphasizing 'sight picture' while the AK he retrofitted with a huge sock silencer has no sight picture anymore. And now they're going to use it to get a headshot on a guy over 50 yards away?

Hilarious! That was the first thing I thought, too!

Sort of redefines "mall ninja"... Doesn't it?:eek:

[Kyo]

malls usually have a sporting goods section. with guns, shotguns, rifles, bows and other weapons. I can see a strategy forming from getting weapons. survival wise, I agree with the loading docks because I used to work at a department store. big department stores have their own docks.
also I disagree with 10 shooters scenario.

[MLeake]

... and probably won't.

However, I suspect the "10-shooter scenario" was more a reflection of Mumbai than anything we've had, yet, in the US.

Then again, until 9/11, we'd never yet had anything like that...

[Father Time]

The only thing I saw that seemed like a good idea was tapeing down the Walkie Talkie to "Jam" the radio's. But I would guess that any group that well armed and organized will have a back up channel.

[Venom1956]

This show is hilarious. I'm halfway thru. I mean the "fight" when they knock him out?! terrible acting. I really wish the disclaimer stated this was only for entertainment purposes. So much of this logic is flawed and contradictory its ridiculous. Another gem IMHO "high-powered assault rifles" oh noes! thank god they didn't come in there with 30-30s! It reminds me a Future Weapons.

Ok i couldn't finish it. I tried. most of it had me rolling my eyes but hey. I'm sure the mall ninjas are digging this episode.

[goldfacade]

If only Gecko45 was employed there:(

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, Gecko45 would have a mall-sized tactical nuke for dealing with 10 or more terrorists. For 6-9, it would have been some other conventional explosive, and then something smaller for 1-5.

The show does have some good ideas, but as noted, it isn't much good for anything beyond entertainment. For example, in the episode on escaping a burning 5 story building, they talked about not being trapped in rooms via breaking through drywall to travel between rooms. It is an avenue of travel most folks don't consider and one that has been used in the past in real life. So the idea was pretty nifty, but other parts were bizarre like with the mall show.

[buzz_knox]

However, I suspect the "10-shooter scenario" was more a reflection of Mumbai than anything we've had, yet, in the US.

Then again, until 9/11, we'd never yet had anything like that...

"Yet" is the key word here. Malls are such easy targets that the fact we haven't had such an incident says that either 1) our guys are very good at disrupting ops and not talking about it or 2) the bad guys are holding off for something worth the trouble attacking "average citizens" would bring.

[obxned]

Most likely if you start out unarmed, you'll die unarmed.

And since the 'sniper' was shooting off and on, how did the improvised silencer help in any way. The sound of another shot would tell his buddies nothing. If you miss the guy, you are in deep do either way, and that rag on the barrel would affect your accuracy big time.

[Double Naught Spy]

And since the 'sniper' was shooting off and on, how did the improvised silencer help in any way. The sound of another shot would tell his buddies nothing.

They had to include that segment as a means of working in the "arranging chairs on the Titanic" aspect, or rather, "how to make a completely ineffective but conceptually cool silencer." Since the bad guys all had guns and shooting, then yeah, a shot or two from the area where the "sniper" was certainly would not cause any alarm to the other bad guys.

[markj]

I stay out of malls, too many people in there.

[scottaschultz]

malls usually have a sporting goods section. with guns, shotguns, rifles, bows and other weapons.If the terrorists do their homework, this should be the first type of store they secure! But then again, terrorists aren't necessarily know for being too bright. They only have to be a little bit smarter than the security they are trying to circumvent.

Scott

[N.H. Yankee]

I've never seen a mall in my area that any guns or ammo, their idea of sporting goods is nike's. I find the program to be a bit out of the realm of realistic. there are some informative tips, but each situation is unique and you cannot prepare for everything which is what the seem to attempt to portray. I just carry my weapon, try to maintain situational awareness and hope for the best.

[wally626]

Some of the malls in my area do have sporting goods stores with guns, but I would think given the huge number of exits in any mall, attacks would either be by lone crazies or a suicide bomber. Hotels, big box stores and restaurants are a much different case because the number of exits per person trapped is much smaller and could be secured by a small force.

[jon_in_wv]

I TRIED to watch it. It was a bit out there for me. I do agree I would rather see that than the, "lie there and play dead" tactic that most people seem to try. IT didn't work well in VT. Personally, I think most people should just run like the wind. Chances are if I'm at the mall I'm with my daughter. We are going to run, if we are cornered THEN I'll fight. Like a good citizen I do carry a concealed weapon. Did he mention CCW in his show?

I did see where his "silencer" covered the entire front sight then he gives a speech about sight alignment and sight picture. Also, if the scenario is that there is an ACTIVE shooter, who cares about the silencer? Why would a gunshot tip off the other bad guys when they have apparently been actively shooting? I probably missed something, I only watched bits and pieces.

[Dragon55]

Yes the time it took to make the silencer which interrupts sight picture was a huge waste of time.

With the power off I can't believe they kept trying to get to the freight elevator which WOULD NOT have had power... except on TV.

I'm kind of selfish I guess but I would rather make my way on my own instead of in a group.

[jon_in_wv]

One thing to remember in almost any building is that most non-load bearing walls are simply sheetrock and its a simple matter to break from one room to another. This may help you circumvent locked doors or to access outer doors or hallways.

[KLRANGL]

Im still trying to get over the fact that the AKs changed from blank firers for the action scenes, to airsofts for the "discussion" scenes... that always irks me for some reason...

I think we need to realize that there will never really be a show that could capture everything you could do in a scenario such as this. First off, it needs to be dramatized so people will watch it. Second, there is never enough time in one episode to cover it all...
Shows like this are just fun to watch with your buddies at night with some beers, and to pick up the occasional tip.
I mean, I was certainly entertained ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

I apparently didn't have enough beers.

[Naterstein]

I hate these threads.

[Mannlicher]

In the mall, or out and about, I carry. If more folks did, there would be a lot less mall crime. :)

[Metford]

Yeah, I picked up on the airsoft guns. You had one burly laminated stock in one scene, and a shiny plastic one in the next. They also thanked Airsoft GI in the credits.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Actually, playing dead worked for some people at VT. One guy who charged Cho was shot to pieces.

That being said, I've made myself clear on banning carry at schools, malls, etc.

I've set my recorder for this when it comes on again. Can't wait.

[jon_in_wv]

Some yes, but he did shoot several that were playing dead, and then quit playing. I can't help but think if they had ran thy might have faired better. I would rather die on my feet trying.

[Double Naught Spy]

Some yes, but he did shoot several that were playing dead, and then quit playing. I can't help but think if they had ran thy might have faired better. I would rather die on my feet trying.

He also shot some that were fully ambulatory and trying to move about.

As Glenn noted, some played dead and survived, some completely unscathed. Contrary to what you might think, playing dead is a form of trying where you try to not look like an immediate target that needs to be shot. Many of those people were playing dead because they were trapped in their classrooms. I guess you might have a chance to survive by running laps around the inside of the classroom as Cho took shots at you as you tried to avoid being shot, but the tactic may or may not have been any better than playing dead.

Klebold and Harris apparently made a point out of shooting those who ran.

Charles Whitman made a point out of shooting those who were moving about, including those helping downed people. He also shot those who were attempting to hide from him. He apparently did not repeatedly shoot those that were down, however.

There are many strategies to survive a shooting. Each has its benefits and each has its detractions. Hiding in plain sight by playing dead so as to not draw attention to yourself is one way to try to succeed. Of course, if you are trapped inside a building with a frustrated shooter such as Cho or the Luby's shooter, then you may wish to pursue other options.

[123kiwi]

And now Gecko45 doesnt seem like such a crazy:D:D:D

[smince]

I watched the episode again. It appears watching it in slow motion, that the sight tower just may be slightly above the make-shift 'silencer'. I'm not 100% sure, though.

One of the commentators in this episode, John Giduk, said if you are in this situation, you need to transfer your hatred for anyone you've ever had to the terrorist to make killing them easier. Maybe my mindset is different (I hope so, anyway), but if someone is trying to kill me and my family, I'm not going to need to transfer hatred to them.

I going to transfer my rounds to them;)

[ezenbrowntown]

Most of what I saw wrong has already been covered, so I won't repeat myself. What I found odd, was the moving down the hall and the "sniper" didn't see them. Where the hell was he watching? LOL. Secondly, even if a "silencer" was required (which it wasn't), sending a guy out in the middle of the aisle, making his shoes squeak and bringing back a rustling shopping bag, is a quick way to get shot.

We discussed this in another forum, and I'll say what I said over there. My first objective would be to hide. Even I was armed, I'm getting cover and hiding. Unloading at one armed gunman will just draw attention of the other gunmen. Hiding isn't always the best scenario, but in this case it's perfect. Large mall, dimly lit. Unless you set the place on fire, you probably aren't going to find me. The only way I'm going after the gunman is if they are close enough to find me or someone I love. We used to scare each other when I worked for a large retail store after the store closed. Even with people looking for you, you're going to be really hard to find if you ever played hide and seek as a kid.

Let's assume you do somehow end up with a rifle (also unlikely). I wouldn't be headed back through the middle of the mall. I'd go back to that chained door they couldn't get through earlier. Granted a single rifle round may not take off a lock, but I bet a 20 to 30 round magazine of that AK would do the trick just fine. The only way I'm going out in the middle of that mall is if the rest of the mall is on fire.

[MLeake]

... with regard to the lock, check out a Mythbusters episode about Hollywood and firearms. One of the tests they do is to use handguns, a shotgun, and a .30-06 against padlocks and door locks.

The handguns didn't do the trick.

The 12ga slug and the .30-06 both blew the crap out of the locks, and the door frames.

Safety note: The Mythbusters crew stuck the weapon barrels through holes in a big, plexi-glass wall in order to shoot the locks. IE they were shielded against shrapnel. May not be an option in the mall scenario, but do realize stuff may blow back your way. (Still, beats getting trapped with 9 or 10 armed BG's).

[ezenbrowntown]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5_3.htm


In regards to the lock. Had this same discussion in the other forum. A rifle will penetrate a lock. One round will not disengage the lock, but I'd be willing to bet with 20 or 30 I can make shredded cheese of that lock.

[armoredman]

And, in referance, just a few minutes ago CNN ran a story about a terror suspect arrested who was planning an attack on a US mall. How interesting the CNN "expert", in between ranting "assault weapons" are too easy to get in the US, he made mention a mall is full of "thousands of unarmed people".