A horrible scenario!

[David Scott]

You and the family are enjoying your trip to Disney World! You either come from a state which reciprocates Florida CCWs or you have a non-resident permit, so of course you are carrying. You have a .45 Kimber IWB under your safari vest, loaded with 185 grain +P hollowpoints.

As you walk through the crowds of tourists from many nations, you see a guy reach into a fanny pack and draw a Beretta 92. You are close enough to hear him shout, "G*d damn foreigners! You ain't never getting home!"

As the crowd sees the Beretta they shrink back in horror, but there are so many people that they can only clear a 10 foot space around the looney tune. You are BEHIND him. Your well-trained family is already flat on the pavement, but the tourists are so panic-stricken they are just standing there. There is no security or LEO in sight, and the crowd is too thick for then to get through.

The looney has not fired yet, he's just waving the gun back and forth and laughing as the tourists cringe. What do you do?

[Joe Demko]

Since I'm behind him, I step up nice and close and shoot him in the back of the head. Contact range if I can get it in a quick step or two. Don't want any stray bullets. There will be legal fall-out, but I will deal with that later.

[CITADELGRAD87]

Since I have time to think, I'd take a knee and fire at as steep an angle as I could so as to have the exiting projectile miss the nice tourists.

Then I'd be on the cover of TIME and they'd let me wax on about the benefits to society of concealed carry by CIVILIANS.

[firstsuspect]

Quick question, not to interupt the scenario, but would you want your family laying on the ground in that large of a crowd? Other than that, I feel I would be ready to shoot him if he started shooting at or near my family members. I would keep my weapon out of site as much as possible, especially from him. He may not start shooting, but I would be ready for it if he did.

[Christopher II]

Okay, first analyze the situation.

- The BG hasn't flashed a badge or identified himself as a cop or security.
- The ranting and raving indicates that he is not a fellow CCW-holder responding to a threat.
- More to the point, the BG has both articulated a threat ("...you ain't never getting home!") and displayed the means to carry out the threat. The conditions for use of deadly force have been met.

So, shoot him. Now, as to tactics...

Shoot-thru is going to be a real problem. Kneeling and shooting the BG at an upward angle is good, but that bullet is going to come down somewhere. A better option might be to go for a contact shot, angled DOWN through his body into the ground. Something like grab him, jam the muzzle of your gun into the junction of his neck and shoulder, and shoot. Advantages of this technique would include greater wound potential, less chance of an innocent bystander getting hit, and (to some degree) muffling of your gunshot. A loud gunshot might spook the crowd into a panic flight, something I'd like to avoid with my family proned out on the ground.

One last thing to keep in mind - Disney World doesn't allow anyone to carry on their property. Even if you eliminate the threat and no bystanders get hurt, your legal and financial liability may be signifigant. So if you decide to do anything, don't screw up.

Later,
Chris

------------------
"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box

[Phillip]

I thought it was going to be something truly horrible, like being stuck on the "It's a Small World" ride for 5 hours. Now THAT is horrible :)

[racegunner]

Hahaha, nice Phillip!
Maybe that is why he was yelling ""G*d damn foreigners!" He saw "It's a small world" ride as NATO propaganda...I remember being 12 years old and that damn ride almost pushed me over the edge.

All seem to agree; shoot. I think HOW would come about depending on your training. My answer for HOW is; ASAP. But I wouldn't be carrying a Kimber in hot weather climate...
a Glock 26, thank you very much. Target would be base of neck & between shoulder blades. And my family would not be lying on ground to be trampled, because even though the sheep are standing now, they won't be when the powder ignites.

[This message has been edited by racegunner (edited October 24, 2000).]

[Jay Baker]

Hey, boys and girls, what if you just walked into the middle of a movie being filmed, and you failed to see the camera??

If you've got to shoot someone, shoot the damned director, because the long, long odds are, he/she is an anti-gun, Constitution hating Mega Millionaire Marxist.

J.B.

[ctdonath]

You protect yourself and your dependents, and exit ASAP. You only shoot if you or your dependents are in imminent danger of grave bodily harm by this loon.

Why?

1. As noble as it sounds to save Rat World visitors from the loon, your only moral imperative is to your family. Do not lessen your fulfillment of that imperative.

2. Acting outside of #1 will draw the attention not only of the loon (what if you miss?), but makes you a target of the Rat World Police whose job is to drop anyone who is shooting (they don't know you from the loon).

3. Are you sure it's not some act? You're visiting the Land Of Make Believe incarnate, remember.

4. Re: #1 - if others don't defend themselves because they didn't exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, that's their problem. Your problem is to protect your family - not theirs. If the two overlap without diminishing #1, great - but you probably won't be that lucky.

Do be ready to shut the loon off.
Don't do it until it's truly your problem.

[LongArms]

I read the question poorly, and answered worse. I accidentally deleted my first response instead of posting it, it was much better.
My poor response is now removed.

------------------
Shoot early, shoot often...

and

Don't Vote for ****ing Lawyers!

[This message has been edited by LongArms (edited October 27, 2000).]

[tstr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You protect yourself and your dependents, and exit ASAP. You only shoot if you or your dependents are in imminent danger of grave bodily harm by this loon.[/quote]

After reading the paper the next morning, you'll turn to your wife and say, "Whew! Did you see that? The guy killed 23 people, including 6 little kids. I'm glad we got out of there in time!"

tstr

[pax]

What an unrealistic scenario, Disney World doesn't allow anyone to carry weapons on its property. So there is NO WAY a bad guy would be in there waving a gun! ;)

pax

"There's nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot." -- Dirty Harry Calahan

[guerilla1138]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ctdonath:
You protect yourself and your dependents, and exit ASAP. You only shoot if you or your dependents are in imminent danger of grave bodily harm by this loon.

Why?

1. As noble as it sounds to save Rat World visitors from the loon, your only moral imperative is to your family. Do not lessen your fulfillment of that imperative.

2. Acting outside of #1 will draw the attention not only of the loon (what if you miss?), but makes you a target of the Rat World Police whose job is to drop anyone who is shooting (they don't know you from the loon).

3. Are you sure it's not some act? You're visiting the Land Of Make Believe incarnate, remember.

4. Re: #1 - if others don't defend themselves because they didn't exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, that's their problem. Your problem is to protect your family - not theirs. If the two overlap without diminishing #1, great - but you probably won't be that lucky.

Do be ready to shut the loon off.
Don't do it until it's truly your problem.[/quote]


sorry but i couldnt do that and let other people be killed. and i really cant see how someone else would be unwilling to take the less than a second to fire a shot and end the whole debacle.
i dont think its moraly right to walk off as long as youre safe in this kind of situation.

would i shoot the guy? heck yeah. how would i shoot him, downwards, towards the ground, bullet enters at a right to left angle to the right side of the base of his neck.
if it exits its safely in the ground.

no i would not want my loved ones on the ground, i would want them getting out of the crowd.

after that i would get back togather with my family and wait for the cops to show up.


------------------
"while u are burying your head in the sand i will be out doing something about the problem, excuse me if i tramp upon your skull." Guerilla1138

"you never hear their standard issue kicking in your door" pink floyd.

[realmcoy]

The next mornings biased paper would read.
Several crazed gunmen have shoot out in middle of holiday crowd at disneyworld
1 dead, several children hurt. One in custody.
Details are scecthy at this time. But two gunmen in what is a gun free childrens zone
exchaned fire with each other for reasons unknown at this time.........
Senator xxxxx in an address this morning is demanding an outright ban on firarms....
With that kind of bias dont think youll get
a pat on the back.You be sued by everyone who
even had a ticket for this day. In the typical scavenger hunt for mega riches.
When the media like oprah and such get done
the public perseption would be you broke the
law (packing) and of course disney will say
you messed it up as they had undercover
secuity at hand and you just jumped right outa now were and precipate a massacure.
Disneys spin docs want be there for you,
I dont think much of anyone would.
To politicly hot.Your toast.
Here in washington state Iam sorry to say you had better wait till he shoots. Because the law here is,equal force only.
The millon mom sheeple march gets what theys
demand.More laws,less self determination.

[realmcoy]

Can you see Janet Reno on cnn shaking and convolsing saying that "YOU" are a criminal?

[Christopher II]

That's a price that I'm willing to pay.

I sure as hell wouldn't stand idly by while people are being killed in front of me.

My opinion only.

Later,
Chris

------------------
"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box

[Spectre]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LongArms:
Beside what do you have loaded in your .45 that would overpenetrate to be more of a threat than the perps weapon.
[/quote]

Um...is this a question, or a statement? Anyway, this fruitcake is evidently waving a 9mm. Since he is a fruitcake, he probably thinks that FMJ's are especially destructive. We know that 9mm FMJ's are especially deeply penetrating.

Even in FMJ format, .45 ACP is not known for extreme penetration, (except in the case of shoulder-stabilized FMJ, which you would not be carrying, right?) and 185-grn JHP is typically one of the shallower defensive rounds.

Okay, anyway...if I survived, I would sue Disney for denying me the right to protect myself. With a family, I would try to exfiltrate them soonest. Without family, I will probably die- but the thing about handgun GSW, is that one usually takes a while to die. Probably more than enough time to totally incapacitate one nut.

[LongArms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spectre:
Um...is this a question, or a statement? [/quote]


Yea it was a questionable statement wrapped around an already answered question. I removed it.


Hey I finally made Senior Member with this post.

[This message has been edited by LongArms (edited October 25, 2000).]

[Jeff Thomas]

Interesting, and certainly plausible scenario.

First, regarding just walking away ... I don't see that as morally right, or even practical. As noted by tstr, I could not ever forget the 'crime' I had committed by leaving those innocent people to their fate. Especially the children, for they trusted adults to protect them.

And, for that matter, I don't see how leaving the area, with my family, is even remotely practical. Disney World is a zoo ... usually very crowded, and now you have the element of panic. We're not going to be able to anywhere quickly. Besides, even if we get 20 to 50 yards away from the guy before he fires, I can't see him any longer. My family and I can easily take a round even though we've left the immediate area. IMHO, it is very foolish to let this guy out of my sight.

My training has been to kneel on one knee and fire at an upward angle in such a situation. If I approach the guy, I'm a more likely first target. Even if I could, and fire in a downward angle, bullets can ricochet off of bone. The only logical choice, IMHO, is to fire upwards ... much less chance of someone else being hurt.

No question that the legal fallout will be grim. However, those closest to the guy, and hearing the threats, will hopefully remember their gratitude when it comes time to testify.

And, the chance they are simply filming a movie? Well, I'm not an expert, but I've seen some filming, in airports for example. I find it more than extremely unlikely that anyone would stage such an event without lights, techs, cables all over, and in front of an unprepared crowd. C'mon, really .... if some elderly man or woman has a heart attack, are they going to say, 'gee, sorry ... it was only a movie'? I don't think so. Possible? Yes. But, extremely unlikely, IMHO.

BTW, this kind of scenario is really nearly identical to what any of us could face in a crowded restaurant or any other public venue.

Regards from AZ

[ctdonath]

This scenario is similar to the popular "restraunt scenario", just on a larger scale.

Such discussions often do degenerate into arguments over "get you and yours out" vs. "plug him and save them all". To each their own. I started out as the latter, and after mulling things over for a long time I've switched to the former.

"Get you and yours out" argument:
- If you're dead, you're no good to anyone.
- If a loved one dies while you try to save the rest, it won't be worth it.
- You don't know the whole story; as some pointed out, maybe it's just part of the show. Plugging an actor won't go over well.
- RatWorld security may not be visible, yet it may be very tight and fast-moving. If you shoot first, YOU are the unknown man firing shots into a crowd, and will be treated appropriately - NOT as the noble life-saving hero you view yourself as.
- And hate to say it, but: other people's personal security is THEIR problem, NOT YOURS. Sounds cold and callous. Sure, save lives if you can, but do not lose sight of the overriding priority: protect yourself and your dependents. Drawing fire, be it from the perp you just missed (adrenaline's a bitch, eh?) or the RatWorld security force ("shots fired! plug the guy in the blue hawaiian shirt!") is gonna be detremental. Making up for a flock of wilfully-disarmed sheeple will probably goof up your priorities.

"Save 'em all" argument:
- You have a chance to stop the guy here and now. Save lives - you'll regret it if you don't.

We can reasonably disagree over this one. Main point is, whichever one you choose, do it fast and well.

[Jeff Thomas]

ctdonath, I hear you, but .... help us understand how you're going to get 'you and yours out'? I don't see that as a likely, practical success.

Regards from AZ

[Bogie]

bug out as best as you can, staying together, and keeping your hand on your holstered weapon. If the BG fires at someone, or threatens to, or turns to notice you, draw, yell out something on the order of "Drop it!" At that point, it's his choice.

[Nevada Fitch]

This would be a tough choice,IF my family was laying down I think I would tell then to get up and point out the best direction or cover to head for if there was time.However I am sure they would not be laying down they would already be heading for cover if there was any.One thing is for sure I would not open the ball by firing first,unless he was pointing directly at me and maybe not even than unless he was very close and I was absolutly convinced this was for real.There is so much stuff going on in a place like that I think several seconds would pass before most people would be convinced that this was really happening including myself.I do believe that sooner than later if I was still in close range of him and I was witnesing people getting shot and nothing was getting done I would probably shoot.this may not be the smartest thing to do but I dont think I could live with myself knowing I continued to let inocent people get shot and killed when I had the means to stop it.

[Spectre]

Hm. If someone has drawn a weapon, and is screaming threats, he has announced his intention to kill. He has the ability to do so. This- and the inability to rapidly withdraw everyone threatened- satifies legal requirements for unleashing deadly force.

Understand me. I "talked down" a mean drunk at the party I attended last night, even though he was obviously just looking for targets to unload his spite upon. I was sweet and kind to him, even though he was a jerk. I feel it is my obligation to treat those I contact with respect and love-but if someone is threatening innocents* in my vicinity, and I have the means to stop him, I will. If that means killing him, so be it. And I'll hope he comes back as something nicer, like a butterfly.


*as opposed to getting caught between rival gangs or third world guerillas

[therealkaos]

this is why i dont go to amusement parks.
too many kids.
too many liberals.
refuse give money to anti-gun organizations like disney by buying thier tickets.
kaos

[nbk2000]

This scenario is an almost total "no-win" situation.

Consider:

1. It's an actor in a scene you're not aware of. Highly unlikely, but hey, it's RatWorld where anything can happen, right?

You plug him, thinking he's a nut. Guess what RatWorld PR will turn you into, a gun toting nut. Now you've given more fuel for the gun banning fire.

2. It's a nut, but you miss. Oopppsss! Incoming fire is a b****! Now you're either dead, wounded, or in the middle of a firefight in a panicked crowd of kids and tourists.

Again, RatWorld PR (and the networks they own) will turn it into "Shootout at the OK Amusement Park" with you as the only surviving (maybe) loon to prosecute.

3. You hit the nut. Good job. But now Ratworld PR....you get the point. Plus his family might sue you and you could go to prison where you'll have to deal with nuts like him on a daily basis.

4. You and your family do a quick 180 and slowly (so as not to draw attention) walk away. If nut opens fire you'll have a head start on the panicked sheeple, if he doesn't (it's been known to happen) and RatWorld PD takes him away or puts him down, you haven't escalated the situation or exposed yourself.

1,2, and 3 are losers for you, 4 is the only winner.

Now if you placed this scenario in israel, then within a second or so there'd be 50 guns pointed at nut job and that would be the end of that.

If sheeple choose to go unarmed and are faced with an armed loony, then they shouldn't expect an armed citizen to take the risk and responsibilty they weren't willing to assume themselves to try and save them.

[Charmedlyfe]

I agree with exfiltration. If I'm behind him, all the better. If he's a looney, he's got targets to the front. If I thought I'd have to shoot, I'd wait till he capped sheep. Then, he's so clearly a threat that not even liberals could gainsay the incident. Yeah, it ain't the bright, shiny way, but it is the most survivable, physically and financially.

[EnochGale]

Mr. Donath is a rational man. Your goal is the most important decision. You want to save your family and yourself. Heroism for others puts your family at risk. That's unacceptable.

If you know the tactical literature, you are aware of the case of an LEO who left his little girl to engage several bad guys at the mall. In the course of the fight, one the bad guys shot his child to distract him.

Have you considered that in this attack, the madman isn't that mad and maybe not alone? Perhaps he wants to cause a rush to a choke point for his accomplices.

Also, those of you who want to approach him have little tactical conceptualizations. Distance is your friend. If your approach goes wrong, you are toast.

For those who kneel, you are subject to a trampling mob who is in a fluid state. Bad move. In an excited state, kneeling might be
a fumble.

If you need to take him down, best go for body shots repeatedly. However, if you can get your family safe without engaging - that is your goal.

Gun lists are subject to too much reflexive commandoism. Take Mr. Donath to heart. Easy to be a dead eye shoot when you are typing.

[Jeff Thomas]

Interesting discussion ... for those who think you'll be able to simply walk away, I would encourage you to visit Disneyland / Disney World again. On a slow day, perhaps you could escape. But, generally, when I've been there ... and, adding the panic element of a guy waving a gun around ... I really don't think you'll be able to move much, if at all.

My point? I think escaping this guy is a nice sounding option, and probably totally impractical.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Regards from AZ