Love Shooting a .25? (Humor me.)

[Johnny Got His Gun.1]

I admit that shooting my Lorcin .25 is a fun pursuit. Hey, it's shooting, after all. But I also know that the .25 auto is a much-derided caliber in some circles. For what it's worth--the gun and the idea of shooting one--a .25 is better than nothing at all. As a friend of mine said recently, "It allows a poor man to arm himself."

Not much of an introduction to a thread, but I'm curious to know anyone else's experiences with .25's: good and bad. I've had better experience with Federal cartridges than with UMC or Sellier and Bellot. I didn't have nearly the number of jams with the Federals.

All in all, it's a handgun purchase I don't regret, but it wasn't my most informed buy, either. It's a gun. I like shooting it. I guess that's all that matters.

I'm also curious about the most favorable .25 brand a shooter could get. Any suggestions?

[aerod1]

Johnny,
We all at some time or the other buy guns that seem to be of questionable quality. We later wonder why. I did, after I bought a Davis .380. Oh, it shoots just fine but I would not want my life to depend on it. As a result it sits in the safe most of the time. If you bought the Lorcin with your own money and you like shooting it, then by all means have fun doing so. I have a problem with some elitist gun owners who think you must pay thousands on a gun in order to have fun shooting. I think that is BS.
Have fun shooting!
Jim Hall

[Hard Ball]

I have just one .25ACP, a Colt Model 1908. It certainly is challenging to try to hit anything with it except at point blank range, but if it was the only pistol I had in a crissis siyuation I would be very glad that I had it.

[Marko Kloos]

I like my Beretta Jetfire better than any of the mouseguns I have previously owned, and the list is long and illiustrious. I used to own two Tomcats, a NAA Mini, a Guardian, a Kel-Tec P-32 and a Rohm RG .25. The Jetfire is the most accurate, the most fun to shoot, and the easiest to carry and conceal. I can dump nine rounds into a fairly tight group in the head zone on an IPSC target at 7 yards without much effort. My Jetfire is stoked with Speer Gold Dots or just plain Winchester ball ammo. It's not a beast blaster, but it's nice to have in the pocket even when I carry a bigger gun as well.

Nobody in their right mind wants to get shot, not even with a "lowly" .25. As we all know, in 90% of defensive gun uses the presence of a gun is enough of a deterrent to prevent an attack. As for the other 10%...well, if I can't get to my G26 fast enough, or the Jetfire is the only self-defense option, I trust that no one will shrug off a magazine full of .25 in the face. At the very least, it'll make the BG bleed enough to impair his vision and allow me a clean getaway. :)

[Tamara]

...most .25 Autos have been more or less rendered irrelevant by the flood of micro-sized .32's that followed in the wake of the Seecamp.

There are three exceptions I can think of offhand;
1) The Raven .25: If you absolutely needed a gun right now and only had $50 to spend, these are amazingly reliable little guns for their price bracket with two caveats. First, feed them ball ammo only. Second, do not dry-fire them.
2) The BabyBrowning: I wouldn't trust them with a round in the chamber in my pocket (the safety's not very positive on this tiny striker-fired auto), but these gemlike vestpocket autos tend to be very reliable with ball ammo as well as reasonably accurate for a micropistol.
3) The Beretta 950BS Jetfire: This isn't so much a mousegun as a Beretta M1951 Brigadier that someone left in the dryer too long. Like most Berettas, they're very feed reliable; they're the only .25 mousegun I've known that will consistently feed hollowpoints. They are also remarkably tiny and slim- while not as light as a KelTec P-32, they are every bit as concealable and, IMHO, much easier to shoot than most mouseguns.

[riddleofsteel]

I did a post mortum X-ray exam on a guy that wished he had never come across a .25. It seems this guy had kidnapped a man that was dating his exwife. He waited in the back seat of the guys car with a gun and when he got in he made him drive to a remote location. We presume it was to kill him. at some point the kidnapper got into the front seat. The victim, who was driving, drew and palmed a .25 auto mini pistol from a holster inside his cowboy boot. At a stoplight he reached over and grabbed the kidnappers gunhand and forced the hand and gun up to the car's roof. While he did he pushed the .25 to just below the kidnappers collar bone and fired three times.
One round went thru the kindnappers upper lungs and logged just behind the shoulder blade on the opposite side. Round two angled down and clipped the ascending aorta on the back side. Round three struck the kidnapper in the spine. According to the victim, the kidnapper dropped his gun in the struggle after blowing a hole in the car roof. The victim, now the hero, held the gun hand up and resisted his struggling kidnapper until he expired a few minutes latter.
Moral here is a .25 hole is a .25 hole. If it goes thru something vital it will kill just as dead as a .50 would. Two, a gun in the boot is worth a dozen in the safe. Three, like the frog holding the stork's neck never give up. Shoot until they fall or stop struggling or you run out of ammo, then beat them with the empty gun.
One final thought. A self proclaimed expert at a gun counter was heard to say "I saw a guy shoot with a .25 one time that just squeezed the bullet out like a zit." I happened to have a cordless drill on my truck. I asked him if he would let me insert a 1/4 inch drill bit and run it into him a couple of times. "Hell, do you think i am stupid?" he said. "Yes i do." i replied. That would be very similar to getting shot with a .25. Its no joke.

[Jim Keenan]

I was not present, but in one case I knew of, a bullet from a .25 went through the victim's neck from the front and severed his spinal cord. Death was near instantaneous. Like Riddle's victim, the "gentleman" in question deserved what he got.

No gun is a joke.

Jim

[Grayfox]

I've got a PSP-25 which is an excellent clone of the Browning Baby. The little guy has been totally reliable. Never jammed or failed to fire. Accuracy is surprisingly good. This is my gun for those times when I can't carry a gun. And at those times, I'm glad to have it.

[loknload]

Yep, I have one of those little Colt Vest Pockets. It's a fun little gun to shoot and I use it for a carry gun when nothing else will work in the situation. Everytime I give it
a workout it never fails. :)
The best part of the story is that I got the thing for free ;)







Triple F Ranch
http://pub33.ezboard.com/bfirearmsfriendsfamily

[J. Parker]

Anything less than 9mm/38 calibre then your "dead meat balboa"!!!:):)J. Parker

[444]

I have personally seen a number of people killed with a .25 ACP. Perhaps more than a dozen. Since it is so inexpensive and easy to conceal, they are quite popular in shootings. I have owned several .25s. I currently own two. A Colt, and a Fraser. I haven't shot either of them much and neither for many years. But, I don't believe in selling guns; you never know if you can get another one, and I always regretted selling guns years later. When I was 21, I bought a Raven because you always see stuff like that on TV and I wanted to try one. It was certainly worth every bit I paid for it. I even had a hip holster for it. I once bet a guy $10 that I could shoot 5 shotshells off a splitrail fence at about 10 yards using only one mag and won. They are just as accurate as you can shoot them. It isn't the caliber that is limiting as much as the short sight radius and the poor sights. Another story with the same gun. I bought some ammo, I think made by Winchester that had a ball bearing in the nose of a hollow point. The gimmick was that since you didn't have enough velocity to expand the bullet, this bearing would be forced back through the bullet on impact and expand the bullet. I saw a possum walking across the road at a nice slow even pace. I shot it using that ammo right behind the front shoulder twice and it didn't give any indication of being hit (other than bleeding). It just kept right on walking at the same speed. I am sure it died, but not right there. I always wondered why nobody ever made a bigger gun with decent sights in .25 ACP. Granted, the caliber leaves something to be desired, but so do others. I always tell my friends that WHEN I hit the Lotto, I am going to flaunt my wealth by buying the most worthless thing I can think of; I am going to contract with a Class III manufacturer to make me a full Sized Thompson 1928 in .25 ACP. I am also in the process of starting to reload for the .25 ACP. I bought 500 brass off an on-line auction, and am going to order a set of Hornady Titanium Nitrate Dies next paycheck. Why ? The same reason I would buy the machine gun in .25. I causes my friends, no end of amazement.

[riddleofsteel]

i load for the .32 ACP. it only uses 3 grains of powder per shell. it is weird to get almost 3000 rounds out of a pound of powder.

oh yeah you will go cross eyed with those little shells
have fun.

[444]

riddleofsteel: I don't know how I am going to dispense those charges of powder. I posted a thread somewhere asking about that and never received a reply adressing it. I don't think that my RCBS powder dispenser will throw charges that small. I have a set of Lee powder scoops that also don't go that small. I was thinking that I would just run the charges our of my electric trickler into the pan of the scale. That would be really slow, but how much will I ever really shoot a .25 ?

[444]

By the way riddleofsteel, did you notice that you posted your reply to me and it happened to be your 444th post on this board ? What that means, I don't know, but it was ironic.

[Oleg Volk]

Someone was shooting into a campfire, then fired the last round in to my friend's right side (just below the ribcage). The perp got severely beaten with a flaming branch, then my friend picked the slug out of his skin...it didn't even enter its own length.

That said...50gr FMJ at 700fps can be effective if placed right. Apparently cheap ammo like CCI Blazers works well enough to fill the local ER and often the morgue with gangbangers.

The owner of the two pistols shown here http://www.a-human-right.com/vestpocket/vestpocket.html is good with them. At 21ft, he can rapidly fill a 3" circle with holes. For some types of concealment, a .25 is essential. I also note that the Italian police (as well as the Soviet Army of the 1930s) issued .25 pistols and found them sufficient for indimidating people.

[old hawk]

just had to add my 2 cents on this,one day at the range shooting my 1911 and 9 mm cz 52 while watching so called shooters trying to hit theyre targets(albeit theyre allover the paper at that with theyre glocks and s+w's) i had caught some rederick over the 25 raven in my ammo can at 40 feet i started filling in a hole on paper with my rounds under 3 inches,slow then the same rapid fire to dispell the fact my "jammamatic wouldnt feed or hit the side of a barn" then told them a number of storys about people getting killed by them,i carry mine as a last resort piece as i only carry one mag in the 1911 or when i have to go somewhere that taking a 1911 might be a problem like dinner,the mall etc.well ta cut it short they had shut up and the one who had started all the bullsh!t had now wanted to run right out and get one,i told him to get better with his present glock 19 before he did anything else.shut them up on the spot.i stoke mine with the 1st 2 being magsafes,then glaser the last two being hardball.the fact that most people do tho is to start the bs without ever owning the piece or shooting one doesnt help at all.

[Backwoods]

I'm like a lot of the people that have already posted, I've got a .25 that I like quite well. It's a Beretta 950BS, and it is "pop can" accurate at 10 yards IF I can see the sights clearly. The original magazine had some minor problems with the feed lips but it works fine now. BTW I have 2 MecGar magazines that are better made than the factory one, they fit and feed perfectly and are apparently made from harder steel.
Now, as far as carry guns, I generally tote a 1911A1, but any time I have to dress in a manner that precludes a large weapon, I take the little Beretta. Actually, most often I have the 1911 and the Beretta.
Someone else pointed out that a .25 is good enough for a deterent 90% of the time, the other 10% you're still in the game but stuck with a gun best used at skin contact distances.

Don in Ohio

[branrot]

Grayfox: I, too, have a PSP-25. Glad to know I'm not the only one! Anyway, it's a great little gun, but it does jam on occassion (though much less now than when it was new). Like you said, it's a gun that you carry when you can't carry a bigger gun. My only concern is that it will be made obsolete by the Kel-Tec P32 (though bigger, it's lighter and narrower and holds a bigger round).

[johnwill]

I have several .25's in my collection, though they're not regular carry items. I have a mint Baby Browning, and it's a pretty decent shooting little gun. I also have a Colt 1908, and it's also a reliable gun with ball ammo. I have truthfully never fired anything but ball in either of these guns, since I don't view them as defensive items. I still wouldn't want to get shot with either of them. :)

[Phil]

I have a Raven Arms P-25 that I inherited. I've run about 75 rounds of Winchester, American Eagle, and UMC ball through it without a hitch. Shoots where I aim it at 7 yards. Considering its reputation I was suprised at how accurate it is at that distance. Fun to shoot.

[Badger Arms]

I have several 25's also. My favorite by far is a CZ Duo I got over the Auctionarms. It's pitted and worn, but goes bang every time. It's got a FN Magazine in in but works just fine. I can hit man sized targets at arms length with it and it conceals in the darndest of situations. I've also got a spare (1943 marked) Duo and a pair of larger CZ 45's which are the grandfather of today's crop of DAO 32's like the Seecamp, Guardian, Autagua, etc. Last, but not least, is a curious Tanfoglio GT27. That little gun is the cat's meow. It's lighter than the CZ's and has a hammer. I leave it in my pocket with the hammer back on an empty chamber. I have to rack it, but that's fine with me.

[SMHeaton]

444 wrote:

"...WHEN I hit the Lotto, I am going to flaunt my wealth by buying the most worthless thing I can think of; I am going to contract with a Class III manufacturer to make me a full Sized Thompson 1928 in .25 ACP..."

Nice. That made me laugh really hard, 444. I think some of my co-workers think I'm nuts. Have you ever considered buying any .50BMG gun and converting it to .22LR? :D

Regards,
Sean

[Johnny Got His Gun.1]

If there's one lessons I've learned from everyone else's posts thus far, it's that we don't mind shooting it if it'll shoot.

[444]

SMHeaton
No, I never considered converting a .50 BMG to .22LR, but I did do something similar (although a lot less expensive). I found some .50 AE brass lying out in the desert once. I had a .50 BMG bullet lying on my loading bench from somewhere. So I stuck the .50 BMG bullet in the ,50 AE brass and told everyone at work that I was in the process of buying a derringer in that caliber.

[Richard]

I bought one of these to help out a friend. Guess what? it is a little gas to shoot. This confession is by a poster that is 6' 3". I bet people would pay good money to see me shoot it:-) Regards, Richard.

[ruger357]

I have a .25 jetfire and love it. Keep it loaded with magsafe blue-tips.

[Bob1911]

444

I realise that this is several years after the original thread but just had to comment that I was suprised to find someone else that reloaded .25ACP. I even cast bullets for this caliber.

Bob

Ps. Mine is a Colt 1908 made in 1918.

[cheygriz]

I have a Beretta 950 Jetfire .25 that is 100 percent reliable. When I bought it, I bought a set of reloading dies, and 1,000 bulk .25 bullets. 1.1 grains of 231 just about duplicates factory WW Whitebox. I also bought 10 boxes of factory WW Whitebox.:p

I can keep ALL shots in the "head?" of an FBI "Q" target at 5 yards. And I can not imagine any situation where I would use a .25 at more than 5 yards. I used up the 500 WW factory loads, and reloaded the brass twice, using up the 1,000 bullets. Zero problems in 1500 rounds fired.

Reloading .25 is a REAL PITA, and I'm still trying to deide whether or not to order more bullets.:D (But, of course, I know I will!:p )

But back OT, the gun is fun to shoot, challenging to reload, and one HELLUVA lot better than a knife or club in a fight.:p

It's not my first choice for a defensive gun by a long shot. But when I can't carry anythng else, it's damned comforting to feel the little Beretta in my pocket.:cool:

There's another conmsideration that seldom gets mentioned, and that's a "contact" wound. If the muzzle of a gun is in firm contact with a perps body when fired, the hot powder gases will enter the wound at extremely high pressure, and act like a small explosion inside the perp's body.


A "contact" wound from a small .22 or .25 will do as much internal damage to a perp as a .357 Magnum a few feet away. If a person must use a small caliber weapon for social shooting, putting the muzzle in firm contact with the perp is an excellent force multiplier. Assuming, of course, that you can do so without being disarmed.

[SpecialCombat]

Heck, since I'm new, and this thread is old, I'll pitch in.:)
I love my Colt Junior and my Astra Cub. I vastly prefer the .45 to the .25, but hey, I can't hide my .45 behind my wallet either. They both have their places, and I have found the .25 to be a great caliber for new handgun shoters. That's how I got my wife into pistols!

[Tom2]

I am interested in old 25's because they are small. Not for the concealability, per se, but just the fact that they are tiny and shoot, which is interesting enough. And alot of tiny 25's are really well made and collectables. Got a couple nice prewar German ones right now. Yea, they are not my choice on the nightstand, but fun to mess with. The 35 gr. hp ammo is fun too, and a bit faster than 50 gr, if it will feed. The guns I have feed it. Only one that jammed it was a DA Beretta. Now the little guns I cannot go for are the little 22 shorts guns. Then again, they might be fun too for all I know, and cheaper to shoot. Two duds are a Beretta 318 that did not work and a Budishowsky that broke right after I got it. It is going to be parted out. Baby Brownings and Bauers worked fine for me. Raven does too. Mauser 1910's are larger but have a longer barrel and shoot fine. I got an Ortgies that needs a test firing now. Colts cost too much for me. And most look worn out.

[hj28rules]

I have a good friend who's wife has an old Raven .25 with pink pearl handels. The pistol had not been cleaned in no telling how long and with new amunition, jammed after the first three shots. This guy is a real A type, macho dude and he is standing there on a Saturday morning in front of off duty LEOs, veteran shooters, gansta wannabee's, regular shooters and he's got this tiny, chrome pistol with pink pearl grips..
Long story short:
We dissasembled the mags and found rust/corrsion in both. I happened to have some CLP and some 0000 steel wool. We scrubbed the mags & springs as best we could with tons of kibitzing from the testosterone peanut gallery.
We put all this stuff back together, reloaded the Raven and it cycled about 4 rounds before stovepiping. Glen threw the pistol down range, picked up his Ruger .357 and begin to shoot at the Raven. He never hit it and the range officer in hysterics stopped him at that point.
Glen turned to the crowd that had assembled (about 15-20 folks) and announced:
"This is my wife's gun. It was given to her by a close member of her family. They were carnival operators for several generations. I take no responsibility for her pistol."
With great hubris, he stode out to the tiny pistol, dusted it off and stuck it in his pocket.
He came back to the firing line, reloaded his .357 Ruger and continued his day at the range.

True story..

LM...Ft. Worth, Tx.
SFC US Army (ret. 1996)

[Rimrod]

I have another true story about a Raven .25ACP. My wifes ex-husband had a daily routine of beating on her and told her if she ever left him he would kill her. After 3 years of this she left him and he told her he was going to make good on his promise. The only gun she could afford, after finding an apartment for her and their two children, was a Raven .25ACP which cost her $50. She had taken the children to his parents house one day when he was at work so they could see their grandchildern and guess who shows up? He took the day off. He started to beat her up right in front of his parents who made no move to stop him other than crying hysterically. He threw her onto the hood of her car and she managed to get the Raven out of the glove box and stuck it in his chest, fight over. After he got into his car and left his father said 'you should have shot him and done all of us a favor'.

I hear a lot of Raven and .25ACP bashing on here but my wife has a particular fondness for them.

By the way, any handgun needs maintainence not just the cheap ones.

[Tom2]

My Raven was 100% until it was about 15 years old. Then I started having feeding problems. Got a new magazine for oh, maybe 10 bucks. Noticed the mag spring in the new one had more tension than the old. Then the gun was 100% again. I did not keep that mag loaded, so I have no idea except maybe a crappy spring. That is the only modern mag I have had that developed a weak spring and caused trouble. First thing to try in a Raven that will not feed or jams. The gun itself seems too simple to break!

[joshua]

I have one, an Excam Targa (I think, because I don't have it with me to confirm). The darn thing is accurate even with the rudimentary sights. It prints one inch groups at 5 yards and that's all I ask from it since it will be a last ditch pistol in the event I don't have a 45, 40, 357 or 9mm. I rather use a 25 ACP than a 22lr, because I have experienced too many misfires with the 22lr even with the high priced ammo. So far all the 25 acp rounds I've dropped the hammer on went off. josh

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I have several lil 25's in my collection, a baby browning, a little Berreta, & an old Colt ( that had damaged grips, so now looks a bit "cooler" with white pearlite grips with gold Colt emblems )

... I've been wanting to build 25 ACP revolver ( as the owner of this thread stated... "humor me"... as a kid I loved going squirrel hunting, & I've always hated the rim fires, as they weren't reloadable... & always thought that a 25 ACP would shoot similarly ( ballistically ) to a 22 LR out of a 6" revolver... with the cases being semi rimmed, they could set against the rim, or the case mouth, as does my 30 carbine black hawk... so the trouble is even my goofy gun building buddy, thinks I'm a bit cracked, but the older I get, the more a project like that interests me...

so the loads you guy's are doing... is the case full, or is that all the vest pockets can handle as far as pressure ???

[Tom2]

I would be interested just for curiosity as to what results people get when handloading the ctg. The powder loads are tiny looking on paper, but I have no idea what that translates to as far as case capacity. I wonder how they get those 35 JHP rounds so fast. I did chrono some Hornadies once from a Beretta, and within a few feet of the muzzle I was seeing 1000 fps, so I wonder how a little longer barrel would do. Wonder if you would need real fine powder like from a 22 to get alot of speed from the tiny case. Something not available to most of us. I assume you can get the 35 jhp bullets as components and maybe dissect a hispeed 22 ctg for it's powder load and try that, if you are brave? Would appear the case for a 25 is stronger than a rimfire case. Maybe the loads are kept at a certain pressure in deference to the little guns. A larger frame type like a Beretta or Taurus might be safest for experimentation. Then again, how much good is a hot 25?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Then again, how much good is a hot 25?

I bet good enough to knock a squirrel out of the tallest Oak... with an acurate enough gun...

[mfree]

I've got a beretta jetfire 950 (no B, S, or anything else) from 1952. It's a pleasure to shoot and I can keep it in a fist-sized group at 7. Right now it's in my desk drawer (at home) stuffed to the gills with Hornady XTPs.

There have been a few times I've gotten unexpected knocks or heard strange noises, that I've just grabbed and pocketed it as a comfort. I know it'll do the job it's asked... which is either end an assault, or delay one until I can get to my bedroom gun, which will END things.

[kristop64089]

it's funny to read about peoples experiences with the .25, Most negative things said usually come back to the gun it is being shot out of.

[PeteQuad]

I actually know someone that successfully defended himself with a .25. Someone attempted to rob his jewelry store at gunpoint while he and his nephew were there. When ushered into a back room, fearing for their lives, he fired when a convenient moment of distraction occurred.

This man is not a gun enthusiast and just kept that firearm in his store as a precaution. I guess the robber didn't know it was an underpowered round either.

[Jart]

I recently got a .25 Baby Browning and would have to confess it's more fun and reliable than I would have guessed.

It bobbled a few times at first but this was due to my somewhat outsized mitts hanging up the slide. It couldn't really be called "slide bite"; it was more like a slide "butterfy kiss".

I found it stirred into some RG revolvers at my dealers - it was evidently hidden because it had been refinished to exactly resemble a baby Browning lightweight, right down to the fake MoP grips. I guess my dealer got tired of explaining that it wasn't what it looked like.