OK!, I caught the HS2000 bug?? Convince me to buy it!

[Beretta9MM]

Alright, tell me about this weapon. Is it good? Is it reliable? Is it a good carry gun? If any problems arise, will i have a recourse to get it repaired or replaced? I have found one for $279 plus shipping. I know thats a good deal. I just need some of you HS2000 owners to convince me to shell out the dough... Tell me no lies, lol, is it a good gun??????

[Son of HK]

If you are unsure, do you really think it's a good idea?
Save the money for an HK.

[rblack]

Gun has a good trigger, is combat accurate, and hasn't malfunctioned in over a thousand rnds using all kinds of ammo. What more could you want?

[Cyric13]

The address is

http://www.hs2000talk.com/

Lots of info and get the gun.

Cyric

[David Scott]

Usually, when something new comes out, there's a few people who slam it. I have heard no slams on the HS2000, and much praise. So what? There are a lot of good guns out there. How's this for a reason:

The HS2000 comes from Croatia, formerly a part of Yugoslavia. These folks are out from under the repressive rule of the Soviet Bloc and they need to make a go of it. They make a good product at a good price, so buying an HS2000 is a good way to help the Croatian economy get and stay healthy. Countries with healthy economies, profitable industries, and good paying jobs are less likely to be trouble, internally or to the rest of the world.

So, by buying an HS2000, you are contributing to peace.

[bastiat]

I plan on making a purchase for peace tomorrow when the HS2000 comes into my dealer. As soon as they add more calibers, I will further contribute to the peace movement.

[jtduncan]

Have you guys handled or shot one of these? Combat accuracy means being able to hit a man-sized target. Even a Jennings is "combat accurate."

I carefully inspected a HS2000. My findings . . .

Sights like an EAA Witness.

Fit and finish like an Intratec CAT-9 or a HiPoint compact 9mm.

Manufactured in a country with political unrest. Could parts and service be a problem? Think so. Look at what happened to Star Firearms of Spain? Fit and finish exceeding Glock/HK/Sig standards but parts and a dimished attraction for big guns with lo-cap killed their fine pistols.

Kind of like the situation with the Tressitu TZ-99, the Sig P226 knock-off that came in with a roar but left with a whimper back to South Africa.

I don't know about you, but I'm worth an HK P7. If you want to be cheap with your life, go ahead. But I'm going with the tried and true guns.

If you're looking for a reliable and proven 9mm, buy a new Ruger P95 or a used Glock, Sig, HK, or Beretta. But I won't be throw my money at it. If it stinks, you have little resale value.

But if you'd like the support Crotia or you just HAVE to spend the money, the "Habeaus Sucker" 2000 is a great gun.

[Mr986]

To counter jtduncan's less than glowing remarks, I offer the following remarks after having fired about 250 rounds through mine:
1--about the size and weight of a G19; very similar trigger and points like a glock. Short trigger pull, very quick reset--nice gun for IDPA. The sights work for me--after market sights available--ashley, mepr--for those that want alternatives.

2- Good finish,appearance wise, not sure of the longevity of whatever cote is applied.

3-Reliable to this point; only time will tell how long it will function with a lot of use.

I'd suggest anyone considering it to visit the HS chat board; a lot of Glock owners are buying them--that in of itself should say that it has impressed some very particular gun owners. For roughly $259, I thought it was a real buy. Your mileage may vary...

[jtduncan]

Reliability is determined by numbers in the 100s.

I prefer products made by ISO 2001 certified companies. Crotia probably doesn't even know about that.

One positive singular experience is insufficent.

Present 100 + good reports on the HS2000 after 50K rounds and I will juggle rat turds for you.

Look no gun is perfect. Well maybe the HKP7s. But the rest have mechanical and engineering challenges.

But a couple of good reports mean little statistically.

[jtduncan]

A couple of guys on GlockTalk is NOT a lot. Most have said they'll look at it. But they're not posting BUY messages on GT.

[bastiat]

What does ISO 9001 mean? It means you have a documented process. You may make a complete piece of junk, but as long as you have a well documented procedure for making said junk, we'll give you ISO 9001 certification.

By your estimation, you should never buy an unproven product. Therefore, a product is never purchased until it is proven. And it will never be able to be proven, because of the previous prohibition on buying unproven products.

What we are doing (my dealer should be getting a shipment in tomorrow so I include myself in the 'we') is buying what has shown to be from many reports, not just a few, is a very reasonably priced, well made pistol. What you are doing is badmouthing anyone who dares to buy it, because we don't value our life (as determined by how much we spend on another gun) as much as you do. From most posts, many people have picked it up as an additional gun. Since it's not sized for ccw, most people probably won't be 'trusting their life' with it. Rather, they'll be shooting it at the range. So the main complaint you have seems to boil down to 'you're not spending enough for a gun'.

We are the ones who will be putting thousands of rounds through these new pistols and testing them out. Sure, we won't have the satisfaction of spending as much money as you do, but we'll make up for it with extra ammo. We'll be kind enough to keep reporting back about our progress.

[rblack]

Fit and finish on mine is as good as any Glock, and combat accuracy is much smaller than a man size target

[jtduncan]

Enjoy them then. You've been warned. All that glitters is not gold.

But ask a gunsmith for his opinion on them.

I'll look for your posts in the Gunsmithing forum shortly.

[TonyPoulos]

I agree with Bastiat regards ISO. Just a paper pushing exercise fueled by consultants. Doesn't mean diddly. The Goodrich plant that produced those self-peeling wonder tires had a big sign out front - ISO Certified.

Tony

[bastiat]

jtduncan, I see you're a glock owner. When the glock first came out, did you say not to buy one because it hasn't been proven? Or was it fine to buy one since it costs an acceptably high amount of money?

And if you frequent glocktalk, you'll know that they're currently doing a group purchase - at least 20 so far and I see there's talk of another purchase in the near future.

While I appreciate your warnings, I also appreciate that sometimes you have to take chances on somewhat 'unproven' technologies. That's the only way technology moves forward - people with guts take calculated risks by using their brains to determine if the risk is worth the cost. In this instance, $260 for a pistol that many report to be reliable and accurate. I'm willing to take that risk, as many others have been. Please excuse us for daring to think the earth isn't flat.

If people followed your attitude, we'd still be shooting only muzzleloaders.

[Gumbo]

Ignore JT's hot air and lack of insight. He obviously has more money than scrupples. I have put over 1000 rounds through my HS in the 6 weeks that I have owned it. I had 2 failure to fires the first time out. Being a DAO pistol, I was trying to shoot it like a DA/SA and did not let the trigger fully reset after each shot. I corrected my technique and trained the proper manual of arms and have not had a single burp since. All parts of this firearm seem to not only be well engineered but engineered to be abused and used for a long time. the guide rails are beefier than the SIGPros. Accuracy is as good as I have seen from a stock pistol not including the SIG sport models. Yes, it does not cost the gross national product of a small Pacific Rim country, but that is not an indication of the quality of the firearm. Sometimes you get more than what you pay for...case in point...CZ's in all flavors. To put it simply, if the HS looks like it is something that you could enjoy...BUY IT AND LAUGH THE WHOLE WHILE YOU JUST ENJOY THE SNOT OUT OF IT AND THE LIKES OF JT SIT LOOKING AT YOU LIKE A CONSTIPATED MONKEY ON A PAY TOILET WITH A BENT NICKLE...some people will just not get it =)

PS:
No personal offense intended jt but your post was a little elitest and condenscending...neither of which make for good company.

[Mylhouse]

ROTFLMAO!!! If you don't mind, I'm going to use that monkey line!

Duncan,

Your comments and attitude resemble the turds you're going to juggle. Oh, and your old signature line about rat turds and rat farts was so cute and mature! You are a big time blowhard that sounds like a (I'll do Gumbo one better on the 'elitist' comment) freaking LIBERAL! I find many of your posts to be helpful in the least, you down guns that aren't on your personal inventory list, and in general, you are full of it (especially regarding your shooting abilities).

[ATeaM]

I heard this gun has an unusual safety system, can anyone verify this ?

How would it compare to a Witness polymer compact or a CZ PCR ?

BTW, I don't know about Croatia man...How long has this manufacturer been around ?

[denfoote]

It looks like an interesting pistol, but I own to many 9MM pistols as it is. I just don't need another one. I think I'll wait for the .45ACP version, thank you.

[BB]

jtduncan, on Star Firearms:
Fit and finish exceeding Glock/HK/Sig standards..

Hahahaha! Oh, gotta stop reading this board....I'm gonna bust something one of these days...

[Grapeshot]

As for the HS2000:

"But ask a gunsmith for his opinion on them."

JT, my gunsmith hates Glocks. Should I avoid them because of that?

The gunsmiths I have dealt with have in general been very opinionated and arbitrary about what they want to work on, and I'm sure parts availability, ease of repair, and personal experience with the firearms in question are all factors. Most of all, they hate guns that don't need/can't receive 'smithing, since they can't make any money off of them.

As for the Croatians not knowing how to build a 9 mm, well, I don't think building a good 9mm these days is rocket science, is it? If EAA can do it, surely they can.

As for the fabulous HS2000 itself, you guys will probably get what you pay for where this is concerned. Everyone says it's such a bargain, but for a measly $50 more you could get a used S&W 6906, which has a proven track record of reliability and has beaucoup parts availbility and accessories. Heck, for the same price as an HS you could get a P95. So what's all the fuss about?

[bastiat]

"As for the fabulous HS2000 itself, you guys will probably get what you pay for where this is concerned. Everyone says it's such a bargain, but for a measly $50 more you could get a used S&W 6906, which has a proven track record of reliability and has beaucoup parts availbility and accessories. Heck, for the same price as an HS you could get a P95. So what's all the fuss about? "

1. Because it is $50 less for a brand new gun. Not a used one.
2. Someone has to be the first to try a new product before it become widely used. Chicken-and-the-egg comes to mind.

'I don't know why you want to buy one of those fancy automobiles. You can get a horse and buggy for less. There's a lot more buggy whip makers than car part makers. And how do you plan on getting gas wherever you go?????'

[TonyPoulos]

Some people make things happen, some people let things happen, and some people... buy a used S&W 6906 instead of a slick new HS2000. Isn't more choice a good thing?

Tony

[Cyric13]

Go over to the HS2000 forum address in the 2nd post. Out of all the people there I've heard two bad things, most about the Generation 1 guns and there not about FTF. If you don't want or like the HS2000 then don't knock it until you've tried it. I couldn't aford a brand new high end or used brand name 1911 so I bought a $335 Charles Daly A1 and it shot perfectly absolutely nothing wrong with it what-so-ever.m When GLock first came out a lot of people said they wouldn't last. Ignorance must be bliss.


Cyric

[jtduncan]

As I swallow deeply. . . maybe the HS200 is a nice gun.

But for $395, you buy a factory refurbished 9mm or 40SW Glock with a pair of hi caps. Now that's a deal.

But I don't buy unproven guns. Guns are different than PalmPilots. They can blow up and send schrapnel into your body.

The BCA Glock hi cap mags group purchase is a mess. The mags still aren't in the US after what . . . almost a year? I think they bought vaporzines.

Anway, I've got enough 9mm pitsols. But enjoy your HS2000.

Now I need a stiff drink. Pass the vodka . . .

[Lonely Raven]

You guys crack me up!

I learned never to talk politics or religion unless I was
looking for a fight. I guess I should include guns in
that arena too.

I picked up an HS 2000 out of curiosity. While the $300
out the door I paid for it is not too much, it's a lot to
my minimal budget, but still better then shelling out the
$500 for a factory refurbished Glock I was eye balling or
$650 for the Beretta Brigidere I was drooling on.

I don't own much, but I have fired many a pistol with some
good results, and I pride myself on my open mindedness
and even handed opinions of things, including technology
and firearms.

I for one am happy with my HS2000. While I do not own a
Glock I don't feel right in any comparison of the two, but
since my main squeeze is a SIG 229 in 40/357 SIG I feel
comfortable in compairing the HS to that.

Having only put 500 rounds of Winchester USA "Whitebox"
through my HS I can't say it eats *anything*, but it has
had zero problems with the Winnies. Thats ZERO. It shoots
where I point it and shoots better then I do....but not as
good as I do with my SIG. I figured if I was a Glock man
I'd do better with the HS, but since I run with the SIGs
I do better with the SIGs. Fit and finish is not buttery
smooth like the Beretta I'm eyeballing, the machineing
doesn't look at German Tech smooth as my SIG, but it is
faultless in build and function. Not stunning, just
faultless...not crap either. While the grip is all polymer,
unlike my SIG 229, it's just not as comfortable as I'm
used to...again, with me being a SIG man. I also dislike,
no, I should say HATE the polymer grip on my Ruger 22/45.
The HS is not nearly that bad...it's just unforgiving like
a Glock, but a little less so IMHO. I've taken it apart
and looked it over 10 ways from Tuesday just as I do all
my other (few) pistols, and I see nothing that worries me
and nothing that looks sloppy. And to boot, with a slight
modification I can take Ram Line 226 18rd high cap mags and
make them work flawlessly in the HS 2000, and for only
$35-45 plus some effort!

I took a chance on this as I had heard only minor issues
all of which were solved with a phonecall and maybe a
shipment back to HS Arms. I figure, with this many people
interested in it, if I didn't like it, I could sell it off
for at least what I paid for it. But it looks like this one
is going to stay in my collection, as limited as my
collection is.

If I had to do a rough and tumble comparison to my SIG,
I would say that the HS 2000 is like a reliable pickup truck
(insert your favorite make here) that does what you expect
of it, and how you expect of it, and my SIG is more of a
Porsche. It does it all, just a little bit smoother then
the rest.

I hope this helped out some that care. For those of you
with your head in the sand, go look for a fight somewhere
else...I find that us HS 2000 pioneers just don't feel
the need to fight. The pistol speaks for itself. The rest
is up to time to tell!

[HiramRanger]

First off, JT, you're an *****.

Now that we have that out of the way let me establish a few facts which will put my post in context.

I own the following handguns:

Walther P99 in 9mm
Glock 17
Glock 32
Sig P226 in 9mm
Kahr MK9
EAA Witness P in .45
Hammerli .22
KelTec P32
FEG PA63
S&W 642
HS2000

What do all these handguns have in common? They are all well made, have served me flawlessly, are utterly reliable and I would trust my life to them. Some are pretty expensive, some are moderately so, so are inexpensive. Cost is one aspect of a gun's value. Since JT raised the issue, I'll finish it. If the gun goes bang every time you pull the trigger and hits what you are aiming at consistently, it is worth its weight in gold. Doesn't matter how much you spent on it, as long as it does its job.

Guns are tools, unfortuantely some people view them as luxuries. Yes, its wonderful when a gun has the perfect finish or blueing. Engraving sure does make them purdy. Custom grips can give it character. But bottom line is, does it shoot when you pull the trigger?

As for the HS2000, it is utterly reliable, superbly crafted, brilliantly engineered. Maybe it is not innovative in the way that the squeeze-cocker is, but it does blend all the best qualities of Glock, Sig and the 1911 into one handgun. For the money, there is no better buy than the HS, with the possible exception of the Makarovs. I still need to buy one of these. Thank God I'm not close minded enough to think that because I can buy one for less than $150 it must be garbage.

Bottom line JT, if you don't want one, don't buy one. However I want to give you a bit of advice before I go. Tis better to remain silent and be thought the f**l then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

---------

this message gas been edited reluctantly by HiramRanger who does not subscribe to the notion of political correctness but who has been nevertheless compelled to comply.

[Edited by HiramRanger on 03-09-2001 at 12:26 PM]

[jar]

So I took your advice.

I bought a Star (BTW they are comming back).
It's nice but not as nice as my HS2000 (AKA CS2K).

I bought a Sig 230.
It's nice but my CS2K is 9mm instead of .380.

So I bought a Sig 225.
It's even nicer than my CS2K but I could have bought over two CS2Ks for less.

So I bought a Sig 226.
It's really nice but too heavy, not light like my CS2K.

So I bought a SigPro 2340 in .40.
Now that is really nice and all the weight is where it belongs. It's as nice as my CS2K.

So, since I really don't seem to be able to appreciate great things as I should, I'll put these in the safe and just keep carrying my Browning.

[Lonely Raven]

Hey! You jar!! Yeah you!

Your the guy who posted on the SIG board about the
group purchase of the HS 2000!

It's your fault I'm in this mess!

Next thing you know, I'll get one in .40, then 357 SIG,
then 45!!

And it all your fault!!

Thanx bud!

[HiramRanger]

I just wanted to drop a short note to let you all know that I have been contacted and reprimanded by Tamara and Mal concerning my calling JT an idiot. Both Tamara and Mal were very respectful in asking me to edit my post. I have politely declined their request, but have expressed to them that I would accept their censoring of the post as appointed moderators and would not complain. They are just doing their job.

I am refusing to edit my post because I firmly feel that the statements made by JT were indeed idiotic. Those who know me recognize this as perhaps the most restrained statement I have ever made. I watched these posts go on for weeks and have just now commented. I understand that the moderators feel my response was inappropriate. To them, and to the other Board members, I apologize if you took offense. I'm not here to cause trouble, believe it or not. I will however speak my mind in a non-vulgar and non-profane manner, calling a spade a spade. If a gun were a piece of garbage I would freely say so, and if someone makes an idiotic and unsubstantiated statement I will call them on it.

I hope this disagreement with the mods does not result in my losing board privileges, though I recognize that it might. If that is the case, I wish you all well.

warmest regards,
Hiram

[Lee M.]

First of all, I would like to support Hiram Ranger for his comments about JT. When one makes comments about a product that he knows nothing about, a person comes to the conclusion that the former is indeed an "idiot." No, I usually don't agree with name calling on forum boards because we should be able to discuss topics in a civilized manner.

But in Hiram's case, it was totally justified. JT was making comments based on his biased opinions about a subject that he knows not one thing about. It would be the same for me to bash an HK P7 or a Kimber 1911. I know nothing about these pistols except for what I have read about them from the professionals who have used them and from forums like The Firing Line. Therefore, I'm not entitled to give an opinion in favor or against these pistols because I have had no experience with either one of these pistols.

Everyone must remember that the wisest teacher is always willing to listen to his students. You gain knowledge from personal experience and listening to others. JT reminds me of the kids back in grade school who would make fun of you if you weren't wearing Levi Jeans or Nike shoes. It doesn't matter how good quality something was, if it wasn't that brand, than it was trash.

I did a couple months of research on this pistol by reading several different magazine articles by some reputable authors before I even thought of purchasing this pistol. I also thought that this was too good to be true for a polymer pistol that can hang with the Glocks to only cost $280. But I took their advice and I bought one. I haven't regretted it since. The HS 2000 is my favorite pistol to shoot. It's reliability and accuracy are up there with the Glocks and the Sigs. The short recoil of the pistol makes it very pleasant to shoot.

One must know that this pistol was on the drawing boards for more than 10 years. Engineers used advanced CAD systems and took features from several different pistols and incorporated them into the HS 2000. It features the John Browning tip-up barrel locking system. It is a striker-fired pistol like the Glock. Its trigger safety is also like the Glock. It has a grip safety like the 1911-A1. It has a dual spring recoil guide rod. The slide resembles the Sig P220 and the takedown also resembles the Sig.

As far as the durability of this pistol goes, Mr. J.T. needs to read about the Las Vegas torture tests between it and the Glock.

I have fired several hundred rounds through this pistol and not one jam yet. Yes, I would trust my life to this pistol. I wouldn't make these remarks if it isn't true, because I will not own a gun that isn't reliable. I have no reason to make these statements about the HS 2000 because I own or have owned the most reliable pistols considered on the market, i.e., Beretta 92F and CZ75.

But I do know, for the money, the HS 2000 is one of the better values if not the best on the market right now.

Oh I forgot something. See how many manufacturers will have in their specs that their pistol can be fired under water up to 3 meters. Also, they have said that it is okay to fire +P+ ammo in this pistol. Not bad for a trash gun heh?

[Lonely Raven]

Hey, could you post a link to that article about the
Glock vs. The HS in Vegas? Or is that printed magazine
only?

Thanx bud!

[HiramRanger]

Thank you Lee, for your support. I have received several emails from people supporting my statement, and the only negative feedback coming from Mal and Tamara. Here is one email that I just read:

HiramRanger,

Your comments about that person on the TFL being an idiot were
appropriate. He was preaching something bad. The only negative thing
that I can say about the HS 2000 is: I don't have mine yet! I don't
own Sigs, but also don't bad-mouth them either. I have plenty of
co-workers who own them. I had an H&K P7 years ago, and wished that I
hadn't sold it. It's nice, but more of a collectors piece.

Regards...


Nevertheless, I don't want to cause a rift on this board, so I will remover the offending statement that JT is an idiot, and leave it at his statements are idiotic. Mal tells me that it is ok to call his statement idiotic because that does not imply that JT is an idiot, merely that he was overcome by a moment (or lots of moments) of temporary idiocy.

I won't go into what Mal said in his email to me. Suffice it to say if I posted something akin to it on this forum I would indeed be banished.

Anyway, I'm off to edit my previous post

[Mal H]

I won't go into what Mal said in his email to me. Suffice it to say if I posted something akin to it on this forum I would indeed be banished.

That's not true, and I believe you know it. You are implying that I called you a derogatory name of some sort which is a falshood. I did say your actions and words had certain attributes, but said nothing about you personally. However, your statement does show that you can deal out derogatory personal statements, but can't stand it when called to task for it.

[Onslaught]

Geez fellas...

JT can tick you off, QUICK, but the difference is, he insulted the gun, calling it names, being derrogatory towards the HS2000... He did NOT direct any of his comments toward an individual on the board.

I've been around here almost daily for over a year now, and this is probably the nastiest, most direct bunch of personal attacks I have seen.

It's gonna KILL me to say this, 'specially since I've PERSONALLY been thoroughly ready to take JT up on his "martial arts skills", but I think you boys need to play nicer...

Just tone it down some, it's not any fun around here anymore with all these attitudes. :(

[HiramRanger]

I'm sorry Mal, I think you were right, people can interpret things differently and associate differnt meanings to words. When you called me "childish" I assumed you were calling me a child rather than insinuating that my particular act of calling JT an idiot had child-like overtones to it. If I misunderstood you, I am sincerely sorry.

However, since you pointed out that my calling JT and idiot could be grounds for losing my privileges on the board, I can only assume that to call someone a child would have the same ramifications if posted to this forum. Sir, I stand by my assertion.

In no way do I think Mal was abusive in his email. In fact, he was rather polite. He got his point across directly and didn't sacrifice his emotions. He said what was on his mind forefully but was not rude. Not any ruder than I think calling someone an idiot is when they have clearly demonstrated that they are.

This will be my last post on this matter - either because (1) I grow tired of it and in fact it serves no purpose if it is truly upsetting people and (2) given the level of hyper-sensitivity here I may indeed be in major violation of the terms of service and may lose my rights to post here.

Contrary to what Mal may think, I don't want that to happen. However, neither will I compromise in standing for what I believe in and believe to be true.

[Mike Irwin]

This is different...

A nasty exchange of posts, and I'm not in the center of it!

Well, I guess now I am... :D

[Mal H]

Fair enough. I think we can all agree that we have better things to do than quibble here. This thread has run (or overrun) its course. Additional discussion on the HS2000 is, of course, welcome. But this one is closed.