Considering a Retreat from Cali--Pro Gun State Residents Sell me on a Locale

[CITADELGRAD87]

After 10 years under the yoke of oppression, I spoke with my wife this am and we are considering a 5 year plan to make a break for the free states.

I've lived at both coasts and in the heartland, but am not sure where to end up. Midwest looks pretty good.

Number 1 on my list is 2d Am issues, state MUST be shall-issue CCW, Class 3 preferred. Private transfers off-paper must be legal.

2 is bang for the buck in real estate.

3 is the economy, I am a lawyer and need to be able to bring home bacon.

4 is climate, snow is ok after not seeing seasons for 10 years, but I don't think my wife could handle a 3 month lockdown because of 7 feet of snow.

You guys are a great cross section, let's hear it.

Thanks.

[RikWriter]

Florida is pretty good in those areas.

[Mouth of Sauron]

Hello Citadel Grad. Please don't overlook the great state of Texas.

1. Texas is a RKBA-friendly state, relative to many others.

2. Although urban real estate has generally been going up in value, there there are plenty of affordable places to live in Dallas/FtWorth and Houston. Austin is beginning to look like California in terms of housing prices, so you might avoid the metro Austin area (unless you want work near the state capitol), but the rest of the state has good cost of living. Gasoline doesn't cost that much here, neither does electricity or food. There is plenty of beautiful country around, whether you want to live in the big city, or prefer a smaller town.

3. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know how difficult the Texas bar exam is relative to California. I figure you are a smart fellow, and will probably pass with flying colors. I'll leave it to the legal eagles here to comment on finding work as an attorney authoritatively, but I speculate that there is plenty of work to go around here for whatever area of the law you do. Houston and Dallas/FtWorth are large metropolitan centers, with plenty of demand for legal advice in business law, so I can't imagine a laywer going hungry. Houston has a large and growing healthcare industry so if you specialize in insurance or medical claims you should be good to go. The only thing I would say is the telephone directory is chocked full of advertisements for attornies, so you will have plenty of competition to worry about.

4. Weather depends on where you are in the state and what time of the day it is. Of course, it gets hot here in the summer, so if you can't stand heat you might want to keep that in mind. It does snow occasionally in the more northern climes.

[md2lgyk]

Why wait 5 years?? Just wondering.

I used to live in eastern Washington State (Richland) and I believe it meets all your criteria, but you have to like the desert. Washington also has no income tax. Currently live in West Virginia (Harpers Ferry). Being near Washington, DC, there's PLENTY of work for lawyers and lots of jobs only a short commute away. Don't let the West Virginia stereotype fool you - the panhandle area is quite civilized and real estate prices are still pretty low but going up as folks from Maryland and Northern Virginia have "discovered" how great the place is.

md2lgyk

[denfoote]

Arizona.
Reasons: 1) Shall issue CCW. :) 2) Open carry State. :):) 3) Lots of places to shoot. :):):) 4) We need a lot of pro gun people here to counter the flood of leftists comming over the border from the PRK!!! 5) Short move. We are right next door, so to speak. 6) Our economy generally fares better than the rest of the country. 7) No earthquakes. In fact, we are scheduled to become the sea coast when the "big one" happens. If you believe that sort of thing. ;)

[Pampers]

but we have enough lawyers already! But then again, I have an attorney friend who likes to deal with gun laws ...

We have four seasons. A little snow, a little hot weather, green hills, and cool mountain streams. You can hunt whitetail deer, Russian boar, wild turkeys, and numerous kinds of small game, and, in a few years, elk.

We are a "Shall Issue" state and have a live & let live attitude. But then again, we have enough lawyers.;)


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

[AmericaFirst]

WA state too.

[David Scott]

I've touted Florida plenty on these boards. Let's check your list:

1. Shall-issue CCW, private transfers. Class 3. Yup.

2. Bang for the buck in Real Estate? Almost anyplace beats California, but if you get out of major metros Florida has some great deals. We bought our house for $79K, it's appraised at $121K and would sell for at least twice that in CA.

3. Economy? We have a growing population, but I guess your market would depend on what sort of law you practice. You should consult someone in the Florida Bar Association.

4. Climate? Over Christmas, we were picking oranges & grapefruit off the tress in our yard.

Other goodies: No state income tax, general cost of living low except in ritzy pockets like Miami Beach, you're always near the water, lots of good shooting venues, police & media are understanding about defensive shooting incidents.

PS: We have the Jags, Bucs and Dolphins in football, plus some powerhouse schools like Florida State. There's basketball (Orlando Magic, Miami Heat), baseball (Marlins plus a bunch of spring training camps). I'm just hacked off that our WUSA franchise got moved to Carolina.

[brouhaha]

Mouth of Sauron about TX. I'm in the north Houston/Woodlands area and I love it. But if you don't like heat and humidity, stay away!

[croyance]

Georgia.

The State is shall issue. As a matter of fact, they just do the background check similar to buying a gun. The fee is about $50. Private transfers are fine. Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what class 3 is. I'd appreciate it if somebody explained that.

Square footage per dollar? I used to live in Milwaukee, WI and housing cost more in Milwaukee than Atlanta's best neighborhoods. Prices are high for Southerners, but low for anybody else, especially Californians.

Economy? What type of law do you want to practice. Atlanta is still growing, and has everything you desire in industry. So there seems to be a large market for any type of law.

Climate? We do have variety here, but it never gets cold. There winters here are like fall and spring in Milwaukee.

[4V50 Gary]

No CCW required to carry. Cold and barren in winters though and in the fall, while it's pretty, you're overrunned by leafpeepers from New York and Mass.

[mobias]

Citadel Grad, come back to South Carolina. Only problem is we have that idiotic "only one handgun" per month law. Strange how no studies have been done as to the effect of this on crime. Could it be that its had no effect? The hell you say!

[Byron Quick]

Georgia fits all your requirements even though we already have a dearth of attorneys:)

South Carolina? Pretty good state even if they do have some screwy laws. Since you are a lawyer maybe you can make sense of their state code on Class III weapons. One clause seems to forbid them and the next clause seems to allow them. I've had people tell me they are allowed and others tell me they are not. There is a Class III dealer advertising in the North Augusta, SC area though.

Florida? I'd personally be as worried about the effects of a big hurricane hitting dead on during an unusually high, high tide as I would be about the "big one" in Southern California.

Oh, geologists I have talked with say that the "big one" is not a question of belief or "if." They say it is only a question of "when."

[Jay Baker]

S.W. Idaho is great, and meets most of what you listed... other than the lawyering business, because I don't know how that is here, other than there are lots of lawyers around and they seem mighty successful. I escaped from L.A. four years ago and couldn't be happier.

We have four distinct seasons, and here, we have not had a hard winter in the past four. We get about one foot of snow per season here. (Much more in the northern portion of the state.) Beautiful scenery, great outdoor sports, whitewater rafting, kayaking, canoeing, rivers, lakes, fishing, skiing, etc. If you hunt, elk, mule and whitetail deer, black bear, antelope, Rocky Mtn. and Calif. Bighorn Sheep, Rocky Mountain Goat and Moose. Ducks, Geese, Quail, Partridge, Grouse, Pheasant, and Turkey.

No problem on the gun issues. Not much crime here, in relation to Kalif. My wife and I love it here. Come up and take a look.

J.B.

[Mr.X]

Nashville...or surrounding counties.....:)

[CindyH]

I moved from Kali to Colorado about three years ago, and I love it. (I moved out on the five WEEK plan after coming out and seeing it :) )

The climate is very nice....winters aren't *too* bad, and summers are just awesome. (it snows about eight months out of the year, but it only sticks around for a couple of days after a storm...then it's at least sunny, if not warm) :)
Every winter, when I think of moving back, summer finally arrives, and let me tell you summers out her kick a$$!

People from back east laugh at me when I say how pretty the fall is out here, but hey, I never saw a red leaf in real life, OK???? :D

Except for Denver, the attitude re. firearms is pretty good.
Here in El Paso county, open carry is perfectly legal. You can get a CCW fairly easily, once you pay da man his bribe, I mean application fee. Much easier than when I lived in Ca., anyway, where you had to show "cause" for "needing" one :rolleyes:
I hear tell from this one scary bald guy I know that people come from all over the world to hunt deer or elk or something like that out here.

Ooops, I'm not supposed to encourage anymore Californians or Texans to move out here. :lol But, we can use all the non-liberal Californians we can get. Please move here and help us...the crazy liberals from up north are taking over :eek: Zoiks!!!!! :eek:

Oh, BTW, there is also very little humidity here

[Mouth of Sauron]

Hello brouhaha, I am from Houston. On hk19.com someone was advertising a shoot later this month in parkland north of town. I am trying to talk a friend into going.

I've lived in Phoenix, Arizona, and have fond memories of my time there. I visited Phoenix recently, and it has grown so much in the past 10 years I almost didn't recognise it. I'd take Arizona as a good choice as a place to land after California, especially if you still have family living back there.

Both cities are hot with a capital H in the summer. Houston's humidity is stifling in the 90s, but Phoenix gets into the hundred and teens in July. Gah, which is worse? Phoenix has interesting weather, what with all the sand storms, dust devils, and flash floods. Houston is just muggy, with the occasional hurricane thrown in for good measure. Fortunately, with hurricanes we get some advanced warning.


Winter? What's that? :)

[brouhaha]

I can probably go. I've never been to that range, only heard tales that it existed. No one seems to know where it is. Fire me off an e-mail later and I can respond later tonight. I might be taking a friend who is very new to firearms too :)

[Zander]

...that Class III is OK here and private transfers are perfectly legal.

Regardless of whether you're a lawyer or not, we can always use another gun owner in Tennessee. ;)

[stuckatwork]

One word...Tucson!

A) AZ is a shall issue state. Class III generally is no problem out in the un-incorporated towns. The the major city governments like Tucson and Pheonix have been over run by ex-hippies or been kalifornicated. They try to mess with gun rights, but almost always fail due to state pre-emption laws. There is nothing like that out in the county.

B) Tucson is growing like a weed. Real estate really depends on where you want to live. The West Foothills area pull big bucks. Generally, the housing market is about on the national average, out in the desert, below.

C) The economy is the biggest secret of Tucson. It has been booming for the past ten years. The business community made some very smart moves and redirected the business base away from the military to general consumer medium manufacturing. You practice law, so you will probably have very little trouble. The local governments hirelawyers like mad because they keep loosing them to the private sector.

D) Climate: Summer HOT! Spring: Warm Autum: Warm Winter: mild.

I will not lie, the summers in Tucson can be brutal. Temps of over 100 are common. Believe it or not, you do get use to it. After a couple of summers you will laugh at yourself for being cold when the outside temps are in the 50's. The rest of the year is simply great. In the late fall, winter and early spring you could go skiing in the morning and be in your pool my the afternoon. Recreation in this area is great. Lots andlots of cultural things, fairs, art, theater, music and such. If you hunt, there is dove, duck, qual, Mule and White Tail Deer, Elk, Javalina (Peckery with an attitude), limited black bear and mountain lion, all kinds of varment hunting. I will tell you what, you have never lived until you have seen the desert in full bloom during wild flower season. When you see the mountain pastures covered in blooming owl clover, Globe Mallow, wild cotton, fire brand, paint brush, blue bonnets you will truely understand the meaning of God's Country

Oh,wait a minute...no never mind, don't come here....stay away!!

[Byron Quick]

While I work in SC, I spend very little leisure time there.
When I look in The Carolina Trader's Rifle and firearms section, I notice that nearly every ad for the private transfer of a handgun states,"Valid SC driver's license required." Some state you must have a CCW permit. Is this a legal requirement? Must you keep information on who you sold a handgun to? I've been noticing a few like this on this side of the river and figure it's transplants who don't fully understand GA law.

[Bud Helms]

Georgia on all counts.

[Art Eatman]

If you want an area with no competition in the field of law, west Texas has some of the most incompetent, spineless lawyers this side of a federal pen. :)

City and county government folks are mostly good-hearted, but many of them would have to double up on smarts to get to stoopid--which provides a fertile field for good attorneys. Same for a lot of law enforcement, unfortunately. This general area is often used as a punishment tour for fed-guys, so we get a lot of the sick, lame and lazy. You can imagine the brouhahas which develop.

And, by and large, the cost of living is lower than a lot of other places.

The Alpine/Fort Davis area is among the prettiest in the whole state, IMO. Great climate. Incredible amount of outdoor recreation in this area.

It IS a bit of a long way from "real" civilization, however. :)

FWIW, Art

[Tall Man]

because:

1. 2nd Amendment issues -

It doesn't get much easier than being in Penn's Woods:
-This is a shall-issue state;
-a CCW permit is just $19.00 and a three week wait (that's all, no training requirements!); and
-Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh on one side, Philadelphia on the other, and Alabama in between. Seriously, this is a state full of hunters and other commen-sense conservatives.

2. Real estate issues -

Even in the Capitol Region (i.e., surrounding Harrisburg), a decent 3 bedroom/2 bathroom single family detached dwelling can be found for $100 to $200k. You'll find better bargains in outlying rural and semi-rural areas. An interstate or four-lane secondary highway is never far away.

Now, the suburbs that surround the major metropolitan areas mentioned in #1 can be pricey, but you'll find this virtually anywhere you may go.

3. Economy/employment -

Lawyers are like cockroaches and Cher...you can survive anything. Seriously, yours is a very portable skill, and should serve you well no matter where you and your spouse may end up. Now, I'm not keen on adding another snake to the ranks of PA's shyster population, but you asked...;)

4. Climate issue -

Perhaps Pennsylvania's best selling point - we are a TRUE four-season state. We have warm summers and cold winters. Spring and fall (my favorite season) are just beautiful. I can't really comment further on the almost perfect balance of weather patterns that we PA residents enjoy.

Respectfully,

Tall Man

[M1911]

Vt, Maine, and NH are all shall-issue. Actually, you don't need no stinking CCW in Vt, but that also makes it harder to carry in states that have reciprocity. All three states are Class III, but I believe VT doesn't allow suppressors. Economy is best in southern NH. Real estate is still "reasonable" in southern NH, at least, by Boston standards. Winters in all three can be tough. The closer you are to the coast, the milder the temperatures. In southern NH, you have the ocean, the mountains, and a large city (Boston) not far away. No sales tax or income tax in NH, but the real estate tax can be high and the state is still trying to figure out how best to fund the school system. Most recent gun control bill in the NH House was voted down something like 350 to 30.

M1911

[kjm]

I second Art's comments about Ft. Davis. It has some of the most beautiful scenery and ample places for shooting one could ask for.

When speaking about Texas it should really be divided up into territories since it's so large and encompasses almost all geographic types from tropical to mountainous.

I live in the Central Texas Hill Country and find it beautiful. One thing you'll have to figure out yourself is do you want to make a lot of money or do you want to live with great neighbors, great scenery and take a cut in lifestyle?

The Texas BAR exam can't be too tough since I know a bunch of really stupid attorney's. I think there are classes offered through UT law (Austin), SMU (Dallas), St. Mary's (San Antonio), and Uof Houston Law (Houston) that will help you to pass the Bar exam with few problems. Texas law still is based on a lot of common sense (excepting family law), so a lot of it will come easy to you.

Houston or Dallas is where you want to go to make a bunch of $$$$ though they lack in good scenery. IF you like to wear shorts and t-shirts throughout the winter (all but a couple weeks), then stay towards the southern portion of the state. Dallas has good stuff to do within a couple hours drive (Lake Fork comes to mind), and Houston does too. Austin is absolutely georgeous, but it is expensive and LIBERAL!!!! San Antonio is comming around, and has better places to shop and eat than Austin IMO, and is much cheaper to live. You could move to New Braunsfels or San Marcos in between the two and enjoy the scenery and the semi-convienience of working out of either.

San Antonio is minutes from the best scenery Texas has to offer short of the Davis Mountains, and full of recreational opportunities. The only negative thing I have to say about SA is that it gets gawdofful HOT in the Summers (like 110 in the shade). Shooting opportunities are available throughout the state, and you can always buy a few acres in the country for your shooting pleasures.

Whatever you want (except snow) Texas can offer it, but I suppose that Vermont has better gun laws. Good luck!

[Ironbarr]

http://www.virginia-beach.va.us/

'nuff said.

-Andy

[ckurts]

I'm going to have to add a third to what Art Eatman and kjm said about the Alpine/Ft. Davis areas. I go back there every chance I get. One of these days I'm going to just get fed up and move back there, to hell with big-city life.

You might consider some of the smaller metropolitan areas in west Texas such as Midland-Odessa. There might be some opportunities for a good corporate lawyer in that area, it's a center for the oil industry.

[AmericaFirst]

L.A. without the crowds

[Hiyo]

I live in Georgia, am a lawyer, and have considered the same thing - relocation.
About 11 years ago I considered moving TO Calif but got ahold of my senses in time. Real estate is way too high, taxes are oppressive, and the politics are unreal. The only thing going for it is the climate.
Georgia is about ideal. Second amendment issues are respected, real estate reasonable, economy good, and nice varied climate. Taxes are average. The bar exam is reasonable and you can make a living.
Florida has nice, unique climate, a good economy, respect for the 2nd amendment, good real estate values, and low taxes. The bar exam is very difficult as they don't want new competition from retirees.
Texas has varied climate (I like the hill country), a good ecomomy, low taxes, cheap real estate, respect for the 2nd amendment, friendly people, but a bear of a bar exam. Apparently memorization of 27 sections of the code is required.
Remember that any coastal area in the Southeast has serious hurricane problems.

[Dennis]

Ref San Antonio:

I've lived here since 1976. I ain't never seen 110 degrees but it sometimes does feel like it.

We live about 30 miles north of San Antonio (about 50-60 miles south of Austin). The thermometer here rarely (perhaps once or twice a summer) hits 100. The numbers are higher downtown - I don't go downtown!

Everybody air-conditions their homes and cars - so heat's a small concern unless you work outdoors. Remember, unlike snow and ice, you don't slip 'n slide on (or have to shovel) heat!

Cars don't rust out here - we salt our food, not our roads.

The coldest temp I've seen here was 11 degrees back in the winter of 1978-1979. One year we did have snow - a couple feet of snow! I believe it was back in early '83. The entire area closed for a whole day! (chuckle!) Shore was fun watchin' some folks drive on bald tires. Yep, shore was comical! :D

Bridges freeze over once or twice most years which can surprise the inattentive, unwary or downright dumb driver. And we got bunches of 'em! Most of 'em drive Suburbans and talk on cell phones. Last winter though, we didn't even have a frost up here north of town.

We DO have pollen! Oh, pity them poor folks allergic to cedar (aka mountain cedar which is actually juniper) or to oak pollen.

We live on a small hill (1100 ft above sea level) just north of a 1400 ft hill - so hurricanes (which generally come from the south or southeast) present little or no wind damage. The area here is pretty thick with trees - so most winds go right over the top of us. S.A., if I recall right, is listed at 623 ft above sea level (just to give you an idea about heights).

Tornadoes are rare here, but do happen. I believe tornado alley starts just north of us (up near Austin) and runs up the middle of the U.S. but none of us in my area have been bothered by 'em.

Back in September of '88 a couple mobile homes lost their roofs to wind of some kind. Folks still argue whether it was high wind or a tornado. The roofs blew off and flew in a straight line - don't sound like no tornado to me.

A couple small tornados did hit San Antonio, though. So anything's possible.

IH-35 from S.A. to Austin pretty much divides flatland (to the east) from hills (on the west) and the Edwards plateau (father west). IH-35 is a bugger - the most heavily trafficked section of interstate highway in Texas (according to DPS) but it is being widened and improved.

Comal County (just north of S.A.) is the fastest growing county in Texas, population-wise. Just about any property you buy here will increase in value. Dagnabbed dee-velopers are having a grand ole time!

Should you decide to come to Texas, visit first. Go to local libraries and talk (no... listen) to the old timers and learn about water availability and quality. Remember, in Texas, "Whiskey's for drinkin'! Water's fer fightin' over!"

Might also be smart to consider the "100-year" flood plains to be the "flood frequently" flood plains. As more of Texas gets paved over, water run-off reacts accordingly. ;) When we have high water at our "low water crossings" (yeah, we know that sounds dumb) there's always some fool tries to drive a Toy-yo-ta through four feet of water. Guess they're tryin' to make a Japanese submarine. I swear, some folks are dumber 'n Abe's mule! :rolleyes:

Fer them that ain't so dumb, findin' work don't seem too bad. We got lots o' lawyers but most of 'em are lazy! A guy with a little energy and a lot of "honest" probably could work as hard as he'd like. There's money to be made.

The Austin/San Antonio corridor is growin' fast. Nothin's gonna get cheaper, that's fer sure! So hereabouts would be a good place for some folks who believe in Liberty and Freedom to put down roots.

Any TFLers interested in this area, e-mail me with your questions. If I can find the answer, I'll do'er fer ya. ;)

Liberals? If y'all need some help gettin' back to Deetroit or Cheekawgo, lemme know. We'll take up a collection.

And that's fer sure. ;)

[A.Rex]

Places I've been that I would recommend:
Oregon, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Texas, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Lousiana, and Florida.
I live in Florida now, and while it's great in many ways, the humidity is a bit harsh on my guns! Also, outdoor ranges are getting scarce, but golf courses are not.

[WYO]

Wyoming attributes:
1. Shall issue state, but must reside 6 months prior to application unless you already have a CCW permit from elsewhere. Interestingly, most people don't bother to obtain permits, because crime is so low you really don't need to carry.
2. Carry permit suffices for NIC check.
3. Pro-gun government, including police. Congresswoman Barbara Cubin is on the BOD of the NRA.
4. Private sales ok without paperwork or background check.
5. Very reasonable real estate.
6. No personal or corporate income tax.
7. Very reasonable property taxes.
8. Climate is pretty good, but that is my opinion. YMMV
9. Good, inexpensive, recreational opportunities.
10. 97,000 square miles for 480,000 people.
11. The economy is the rub. You have to want to live here, then you find a way.

I wrote you off-forum about bar licensing and other matters.