Boxing

[eyeball]

any boxing freaks in here besides me?

speed bag: for speed
heavy bag: for power
double end bag: for a sense of range

besides the speed bag, heavy bag, double-end bag, what other types of equipment can be used to sharpen boxing skills.

and i know that sparring works and what not but i need to know stuff i could do that can be done without a partner.

oh, btw. my favorite boxers are Felix Trinidad and Mike Tyson.

thanks.



[Edited by eyeball on 06-07-2001 at 03:25 AM]

[PaladinX13]

Some information here:

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/box/box.html

(If anyone is wondering or cares, I ended up picking boxing as my "MA"- the gym was local and they let me use it free as long as I spar with them... seems everyone wants a shot at a 7'310lbs freak! ;) Krav Maga classes were cool but cost money and not as flexible or as close as the boxing gym)

Shadow boxing is a must... if you're looking for equipment add a full sized mirror. You need a jump rope, running shoes, weights, and an axe. Hell yeah, I said an axe! Chopping wood helps build your lats, but the "danger" factor maintains your awareness, sharpness, and control. Jog slow, hard, and long to build wind. The thing I love about boxing is that so much of it is just general conditioning. Less about "How to take a stronger opponent?" and more "Hey, just get stronger!!" ;)

[Steel]

I love my 150# Everlast

[Triple D]

My favorite piece of boxing/martial arts training equipment is focus pads (aka punch mitts, etc. Similar to Thai Pads). They let you work combos for speed and power against a "moving" target. Or you can use them for speed/timing by having your partner "flash" the pad at you.

Break down your techniques and take time to learn 2-3 counters for each one. Anyone can put up a good offense, some can take a good beating (fight Rocky style...get whupped for 11 rounds, then KO them in the 12th), but few ever get good at countering and defense.

Sparring is a must...something I didn't do enough of when I was boxing. If you can find it, the best book ever published on techniques, combos, etc. was the 1943 Naval Aeronautics Bureau V5 Boxing Manual.

Thread on "Combative" Boxing...
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/000050.html

Info on Bare Knuckle Pugilism...
http://keith.martialartsman.com

[ronin308]

eyeball, what I do when I train for boxing is I do some shadowboxing, but I put a 2-3 lbs weight in each hand when I do it. Try it out, you'll be surprised how much difference the 3 extra pounds will make in your training. Not only does it build power and endurance but speed as well. Also have you ever hit something hard? Like someone's skull? :rolleyes: You MUST train to condition your knuckles if you actually plan on using your boxing in a self-defense situation...

Dan

[Skorzeny]

I have much respect for boxers and the "sweet science" as a form of martial art.

However, there is one aspect of boxing that often escapes the notice of those who intend to use it for self-defense (aside from lack of kicking, trapping and grappling).

The often missed fact is that that punching bare knuckles without any gloves, padding or wraps will likely incur some serious damage to one's fists and wrists, particularly if the object of punching is the human skull (arguably one of the toughest part of human skeletal system - for a good reason, too).

In this regard, I personally favor Jeet Kune Do style "straight blast" (series of quick, rather than powerful, vertical fists) to disorient the opponent and deliver the coup de grace with elbows and knees. If I must strike the head or face with power, I'd much rather use palm strikes, rather than full horizontal fists.

Skorzeny

[PaladinX13]

Good link on that here:
http://keith.martialartsman.com/pug/pugBreak.html

I don't think it's neglected at all, hell it's probably the most common objection/psuedo-myth (boxer DO break their hands in street fights but hardly as often as many imagine) to boxing as a MA out there (enough so, that just about every "Boxing as a MA" type FAQ addresses it).

[Skorzeny]

Paladin:

From your link, it states...

Biomechanics of Punching: The old-time pugilism punched with a vertical fist. The horizontal fist only came into popular use in sport boxing after the introduction of thickly padded gloves. There was a good reason for this. A vertical fist protects the hand from injury.

If you go back to my previous post, you will see that I mention the words "vertical" and "horizontal" fists and also mention my preference for former, particularly in "straight blast" style.

It's my impression that a vast majority of boxing gyms do not really teach vertical fists anymore.

An additional benefit of punching with palms (actually more palm heels) is that you are less likely to cut yourself against the opponent's skull and contract blood-borne diseases. Not that important in a self-defense situation until you find out that your attacker has HIV or some other nasty stuff.

Skorzeny

[LawDog]

There's a good reason why a broken metacarpal is commonly called 'boxer's fracture'.

LawDog

[Byron Quick]

Anyone who doesn't think that "boxer's fracture" occurs frequently is invited to cultivate an acquaintance with a radiology technician who works in an emergency department. Ask to see the films.
After seeing only a few, even a layman can identify both the fracture and the cause,i.e, hitting a hard object with the fist.

Usually the patient presents with a hand that is swollen like an overfilled balloon. Too swollen and too painful to use to function as a hand. And it is usually the patient's dominant hand.

Give yourself an edge. Only practice punches with the fist to soft targets if you are practicing for street encounters instead of formal matches. If you break your hand in a match the referee will stop the fight. If you break your hand in a real fight... If you must hit to hard, bony targets practice picking up improvised weapons and using those. Protect your hands. It's difficult to avoid getting the crap kicked out of your if you have a broken hand.

[PaladinX13]

I'd submit that any such results would not quantify if boxers are harming their hands or simply people who don't know how to punch... it's unfair to say that because lots of people break their hands lots of boxers do as well. Anecdotal "boxer's fracture" is no more quantifying than saying the Chinese were boxers from the "Boxer's Rebellion".

Better to look at NHB-type striking events or trained boxers in barefisted incidents.

I can't speak for the majority of gyms but mine certainly emphasizes vertical punching, at least with me... hell, it's the only way I can hit people without leaving myself way open!

[ATeaM]

By "vertical" punching I assume you mean with the palm up ? Lots of gyms teach that, especially when throwing the jab trying to create a different angle. Thats not gonna make a difference what angle your hand is turned, you can still bust a knuckle, twist your wrist, catch your thumb, whatever.

Palm strikes and back handed punches (my favorite) should be practiced as well, but what advantage the boxer gains in a fight is not so much the particular weapon he uses (his fists), but the angles, the footwork/balance, the judgement of distance that are sorely overlooked in other martial arts. Boxing is still tops in many ways.

[Danger Dave]

By "Vertical punching", they mean you hold your fist up & down, like holding a pistol. By horizontal, you turn your punch over at the end, ending palm down.

Hand fractures are VERY common in any sport/art that punches. The bones in the back of your hand are small, and if you can punch with any power, your run the risk of breaking your hand. The skull is very hard and solid, and build to deflect blows (that's why it's round - arches are stronger & don't offer a square surface to hit). We won't even get into what happens when you punch an elbow... Another, slightly less common fracture is a fracture of the knuckle joint or the slipping of the cartlidge cover over the knuckles. I've known plenty of people that have done all of them at one time or another... And I know a fair number of martial artists that developed arthritis in their hands and feet at an early age from "repeated trauma" to the joints (like me)...

I think one of the big reasons palm strikes were developed is the likelihood of breaking the hand when striking. That, and the fact that a lot of the old "hand conditioning" methods inevitably lead to tissue ossification (calcium buildup) & joint degradation before 35. So if you lived to see the ripe old age of 35, you might not have been able to make a good fist anymore because your joints were fused... Don't buy into "hand conditioning" - your hands/feet will take enough punishment without intentionally and repeatedly damaging them.

[Skorzeny]

Danger Dave:

Right on target, in MHO!

In the early days of NHB fighting, hand wraps were not allowed and many strikers (and non-strikers who bothered to punch) had to drop out even after victorious matches from swollen/broken hands.

Currently, a vast majority of NHB fighting events mandate 1) gloves, 2) mouth protection and 3) groin protection.

In Jeet Kune Do, a "straight blast" of rapid vertical punches are used to disorient and "back up" the opponent, rather than to inflict hard blows a la boxing, so that elbows and knees can be used. Elbows and knees are much more rugged for striking than fists ever will be.

Folks who "condition" their fists with things like Makiwara simply do not understand what is going on medically.

Skorzeny

[inGobwetrust]

When I was in my teens I boxed for a few years with some great Golden Gloves fighters. When it came to tactics for the street our favorite technique was the ear-slap, same motion as a hook but with an open palm to your opponents ear. It's much easier on the knuckles and WILL debilitate your attacker if you land it hard. We trained to use it in a 3 punch combination; right to body-left to body- right ear slap. (the first 2 punches are with closed fists) I've taken one of these shots and can tell you they hurt like hell and disorient you. The body shots don't usually hurt your knuckles as much as head shots. You can practice this on a heavy bag. Try it, you'll see!

By the way, my current favorite boxer is Sugar Shane Mosely. Best combination of speed and power I have seen in a long time-if ever! Some of my favorites from the past are Marvin Hagler, Alexis Arguello, and Ken Norton.

[Danger Dave]

That "palm heel hook" isn't unique to boxing - I've seen it in several styles of unarmed combat. Keep your fingers together & curled & tuck your thumb beside your hand. You can use the flat of you hand to the ear, or if you slightly bend your wrist back, you can use the heel of your palm as the striking surface for the chin, temple, etc. Since you're taking the carpal bones out of the equation, there's less chance of injury to the striker. And it's still a solid blow...

Skorzeny, I think the advent of hand wraps and gloves have increased the incidence of brain and hand damage in combative sports. Because the wraps/gloves increased the hands ability to strike hard surfaces (like the skull), people have become so focused on the single punch KO that they forget to attack their opponents entire body. The results are that the head gets hit way more often than is healthy, and the hands take a repeated pounding against a hard object. Since most boxers (& martial artists, too) only train with contact while wearing wraps & gloves, they never learn the risks of striking their opponents harder body parts and how to avoid them. Of course, closed-finger gloves also dramatically reduce the risk of infection from scratches (a cut from a human fingernail is a nasty injury - trust me) and eye injuries (accidental or otherwise). A lot of the sparring I've done is "medium" contact - mostly without safety gear - and believe it or not, I've seen a lot more injuries with "safety gear" than without (I wouldn't think of full contact sparring without it, though).

[Skorzeny]

Danger Dave:

Again, I agree with you there...

I personally would like to see NHB (and maybe even boxing) use NO gloves or protection equipment (except groin cup).

It seems to me that all that padding allows fighters to exchange REPEATED blows (to heads and teeth particularly) that are, in the long run, very unhealthy to both the hitter and the hit.

Also, I want the round system gone, too. Folks tap out, quit and tire much more quickly when fighting continously and really save their long-term health in the end. When you allow fighters to rest every three minutes and keep them going just when they can't take it anymore otherwise, I think the chances of serious damages increase.

BTW, does anyone know much about the Russian sport of hand slapping? I hear that some Russian players can deliver knock-out quality slaps with cupped hands!

Skorzeny

[Matt VDW]

Would clenching something like a roll of dimes do anything to protect the hand when punching?

[Byron Quick]

I've never punched anyone with a roll of coins. Just thinking about it, I think it would increase the force of the punch without adding any (or enough?) protection to the hand.

I can say from experience that sawn off shovel handles and concrete blocks work well in protecting your hands. I know a guy that prefers to grab opponents by the nape of the neck while landing a body blow(s) with the other hand. Then using the hold at the nape of the neck to propel his opponent's face into walls, trees, cars or whatever massive object is available in the vicinity. I've watched him do it. Works very well for him. He likes guys with ponytails:D

For myself, I will not be delivering full power blows with my fists to an opponent's face or head in a real fight as opposed to a formal match.

[inGobwetrust]

Danger Dave,

First of all, I'm not referring to a palm-heel strike. I said "slap" and I meant slap! The fingers are not curled at all as it is an open-handed strike.(which is illegal in boxing) The impact is VERY different. I also made no inference that it is unique to boxing. As a matter of fact, it has very little to do with boxing and everything to do with self defense or street fighting.

[eyeball]

skorenzy: i've seen a funny Fox sports network commercial of the Russian sport of hand slapping. while the russians were slapping each other the commercia said something like "only the sports region you care about."

[SW 586]

I can personally attest to the effectiveness of an open-hand slap to the side of the head.
About a year ago, a former in-law came banging on my front door one night. I stepped out onto the porch to see what he wanted. His father and my sister had been through a messy divorce a few months before. I don't really know what his problem was with me, but he launched into a rant calling me every name in the book. I suggested he leave before I called the law on him. Instead, he took a wild looping swing at me.
Now, I am not a fighter and definitely do not have fast reflexes. This guy is 35 yrs. old, 5'11", 185 lbs. I'm 49, 5'10", 142 lbs. in soaking wet clothes.
Anyway, I slipped his punch and came up with an open palm right smack on the guy's ear. His eyes rolled back in his head and he was out like a light even before he tumbled down five steps and landed flat on his back in my driveway. I swear to God he was snoring like a lumberjack!
All I could do was look at my open hand and say, "Did I do that?"
When he woke up a few minutes later, I threw his sorry ass in his pick-up and told him he'd better think twice before he tried any such crap again...he hasn't, and I don't really care if he can still hear out of that ear.
And I went back in the house with an ear-to-ear grin on my face.
:D

[eyeball]

haha

[DAKODAKID]

I have a boxing gym set up in my garage with the Heavy bag, double end bags, speed bag and the cobra bag.
Check out www.ringside.com the cobra bag is nice.
If you really want to get into the speed bag, i mean REALLY into it check out Alan Kahns book The speed bag bible. an incredible book.
Boxing is a great workout but in a street fight i would use the basic ju jitsu moves.
There are alot of weak points on the human body and one should never need to use their hands on someones head.
I need my hands for other things..like shooting..

[eyeball]

Dakodavid: how similar is BJJ to high school wrestling? only if you are familiar with hs wrestling though.

btw, is it the Cobra heavy bag or the Cobra reflex bag that you have?

[eyeball]

regarding the double-end bag:

does anybody know if you are supposed to attach two shock cords on both ends of the bag or are you only supposed to have one shock cord at one end and a non-elastic rope on the other end? thanks.

[DAKODAKID]

I wrestled in HS (very tough exhausting sport)and i have only limited experience with BJJ.
I was taught basic "street fighting" by a good friend of mine who was a SEAL in Nam.
I box every day approx 12 rounds and i really love it.
One of my favorite bags is the Cobra Reflex bag, on a sunny day i can bring it in my back yard and really sweat.

I have the DE bag and the Mexican style DE bag.
I have one of those hand-grip plate loaders from Iron Mind and i attatch 1 bungee cord from the ceiling to the top of the bag and 1 bungee cord from the bottom of the bag to the plate loader.
I use different lengths of bungee cord to make the bag fast or slow.
My favorite is the speed bag and after working with Alans book it is really fun to use your elbows etc.
I frequently do all 12 rounds on the speed bag only.
I think it really helps with hand/eye coordination.

[eyeball]

I find that the bag goes faster if I use only one elastic cord instead of two. i like my DE bag to go ultra fast so I only use like 20 inches of bungee. on my celing is a screw eye and I slip the rope that is attached to the top of the DE through it and pull up the bag as hard as I can until the DE bag raises to my eye level. I then strap the rope to a barbell that weighs 135 lbs. after that, once the DE bag is it, it wobbles like a mutha%#$&#! I can barely even get a clean shot from the bag. that is how I like it.

my workout goes like this:

20 minutes on the speed bag
20 minutes on the heavy bag
20 minutes on the double-end bag


DAKODAKID: im thinking about getting the King Cobra Reflex bag. is that thing durable? and how fast does the bag pop back up after hit? can you increase that rate of how fast it springs back in place by turning on some lever or something?

[fubsy]

eyeball,

Instead of using the swinging ball for slipping we used to tie a line at a position that when we were covered up we had to crouch to go under it, throwing the hands, combinations as we came up----to make it even harder slant the rope downward a bit so you have to dip further, of course this is dipping with the knees not the waist--it helped develop good coordination and power using the torso.....fubsy.


I have to agree with skorzeny on the vertical fist---its a fist well known to isshinryu practioners.......fubsy.

[DAKODAKID]

The vertical grip can be a very nice tool and is very usefull.
Fubsy, that sounds like a great workout idea, i am going to have to use it...thanks

eyeball, my cobra reflex bag is approx 6 years old and it is still running strong.
The harder you hit it, the faster it comes back at you(i have been hit pretty good in the face with it and it teaches you to punch and move your head!!!)
I would wear handwraps and gloves until you get used to the cobra bag as one wrong punch low on this will really hurt your hand(s).
God how i love boxing..the sweet science indeed.........
I feel that boxing helps my pistole shooting, hand/eye timing and my delts are very strong to hold the pistol up...
Getting hit in the face by your training bags kindof helps me overcome the occasional flinch that may occur whilst shooting...lol.
Great post everyone, i love learning.....

[eyeball]

fubsy: so you are saying that instead of tying the top portion of the DE bag at 12 o' clock, that I should attach it somewhere in between 1 o' clock and 2 o' clock? and instead of 'slipping' I should follow a "U" motion underneath the bag? i must admit, that is an ingenuis idea! I would have never thought it myself. im going to try it and incorporate the new technique into my workout. btw, do you use one elastic cord at this position or two? thanks.

DADODAKID: i think im going to have to work the cobra reflex bag into my workout. my new workout is going to look like this:

15 minutes on the speed bag
15 minutes on the heavy bag
15 minutes on the double-end bag
15 minutes on the cobra reflex bag

btw: is that a speed bag that is attached to the cobra reflex bag? cause it sure looks like it.

[fubsy]

dakotakid,
Let me know what ya think of it after ya do it.......The first time I brought it to the dojo we ran it awhile and most felt it the next day, Not everytime we used it, but often we would lower the lowest end radically so that we really had to crouch to go under it and like that it wasnt the best for "imitating"slipping but it worked you in ways most were surprised at.......we used about 15-20 foot of rope-----and of course all that can vary.

Some other points on the vertical fist......

It probably dosent need to be said but Ill go ahead and bore some of ya.......the fist is made by rolling the four fingers and putting the thumb on top of the index finger were it applies pressure down on the index finger for a tighter fist, the fist is not kept tight until the target is struck.
The fist provides advantages of keeping the wrist tighter than the normal thumb down the side. The impact area is still the first two knuckles and dont fully extend the arm, its not intended as a power punch, like the twistiing punch etc., although it can be delivered to certain areas with very good power, it is fast.
One problem with the punch is against a taller opponent, if your going to the head the angle of the first two knuckles of the fist and the head can create problems, one reason that the palm area is a better striking surface for the bone in the head, the fist does work well agains the side of the jaw and some other areas of the head especially if the head is in the right height for your power. Realistically, you can throw the punch from any angle you can throw the fist made in the boxing way, you lose some of the snap and speed but you do retain the wrist strength so the wrist wont buckle---although in boxing you are wrapped. It is not the "ultimate" fist, its simply another tool.
You can do your pushups with the vertical fist as well....helps build the wrist......fubsy.

[fubsy]

eyeball,

I wasnt referring to using the heavy bag, all though I like a bag that goes from my shins to my head and is tied at both ends....the top is connected with a spring......a garage door spring....and the bottom is tied off, ..........although recently what I have is a very simple set up, Ive got an old bag tied to a tree limb in a very sandy area, it does ok for now.......

What I was talking about was not using a heavy bag to practice slipping its way to slow and heavy......I dont know how you practice it, but Ive tried both the ball or small bag(like speedbag size) on a rope and its pushed at your head and you go around it and Ive tried the method I mentioned and I like it better. it helps you to move in good control and combines the strength and power in the waist and legs as you come up for the combinations.......Just tie a rope at one end at a height that when your hands are up you have to duck under it while keeping the hands up and run the line horizontally to another point that is lower than the first point and then just start working it....I good starting place for the high point is your shoulder neck height .....fubsy.

[eyeball]

fubsy: i wasn't talking about the heavy bag. were talking about the double-end striking bag right? a small ball (a little bigger than a speed bag) with ropes attached to both ends.

so your saying I should tie the ropes vertically instead of horizontally? like for example instead of securing the ropes from celing to ground, I should attach them from wall to wall?

[fubsy]

eyeball,


Im not referring to connecting anything to a bag......for the sake of my response forget bags.........

I am replying to your statement:
"
besides the speed bag, heavy bag, double-end bag, what other types of equipment can be used to sharpen boxing skills.

and i know that sparring works and what not but i need to know stuff i could do that can be done without a partner. "

I suggested a drill that you can do by yourself with a minimal of equipment-----a rope.

Get a rope however long you feel like going and tie it at one end about your shoulder height(that will be the tall end), tie the other end, (which will become the low end) at the lowest you want to crouch, (using the legs and not the waist although as you work the rope toward the smaller end you will have to start dipping at the waist). You start at the tall end and go under the rope(like a U) and when you come up you throw combinations. it helps to learn to slip punches......fubsy.

[eyeball]

ahhh yes. that sounds like a good drill. to tell you the truth it sounds even better than trying to slip on a DE bag. cause with the DE bag, the ball doesn't always come directly at you.

but whats that you were talking about earlier where you said that after you crouch and on your way up, you hit the bag?

how do you configure the DE bag that way? you just tilt the DE bag at an angle right? but do you use one shock cord or two?

[fubsy]

eyeball you got to be jerking me around here.....so this will be last post on the subject.....you copy anything I said in this post about hitting a bag when coming up, Id like to see it------my post were not about what to do with a bag, I only once stated how I prefer to hang the bag and how Im using one now. None of that had anything to do with the drill I was trying to explain.....so to keep this real simple.......forget I said anything about a bag, I dont care how ya hang it, de, heavy , or any other type. I rewrote how to work the drill and that was what I was to contribute, go to a boxing gym....fubsy.

[eyeball]

uhhhhh... you sound mad. do you wan't to box?


"Instead of using the swinging ball for slipping we used to tie a line at a position that when we were covered up we had to crouch to go under it, throwing the hands, combinations as we came up----to make it even harder slant the rope downward a bit so you have to dip further, of course this is dipping with the knees not the waist--it helped develop good coordination and power using the torso.....fubsy. "


there. you just said that you throw combinations as you come up. see?

this is something else here:

do you have the same problems I do with heavy bags? for me I find that I need to hang the bag really high up in the air (my eye level needs to be even with the very bottom of the bag). from experience it seems that hitting any heavy bag is useless unless your hitting the bottom 20% of it.

i mean, whenever I hit the heavy bag at the 50% mark, the bag irritatingly wobbles but when i hit the bottom 20% of the bag, this is the only place where I could get a solid hit.

do you have the same dilemma?