Shoot through the door?

[airborne420]

Your lying in bed at night and someone starts kicking in your BEDROOM door, which is locked. You know it's not a household member because you live alone. Do you shoot through the door or wait?

[Fatcat]

Wait till you see 'em. I'd hate to shoot a cop because he messed up the search warrant and was kicking down my door instead. The jury would have a field day on ya..

[PreserveFreedom]

I'd hate to shoot a cop because he messed up the search warrant and was kicking down my door instead.
That would be your best reason to shoot through the door. The USA is not a police state and a no knock search warrant is illegal. They need to lose a few people before they start getting the message.

[Erick Gelhaus]

This is one of those instances that will come down to one's ability to articulate the threat.

As the question was posed, there was no mention of someone yelling "Police! Search warrant!" once inside the residence.

My question would be: How did they get to your closed bedroom door without an indication of them being in your house? Not that isn't possible at my abode - especially during the summer.

Absent some other indicator, I hope to be in position & able to positively ID the threat as the door comes in.

Moderator hat on momentarily-
PreserveFreedom, I am as appalled as anyone else when the police screw-up, either through negligence (or worse) or by a legimate mistake - Neither of which excuses the errors that ultimately follow. However, blanket statements are inappropriate.

What are commonly referred to as "No-Knock" entries are not illegal in all 50 states. That is based on both codefied (statute) and case law. Whether that is a good thing or bad, is not for me to decide.

Even California, which, as an almost Hard & Fast rule, does not allow a magistrate to excuse the Knock & Notice requirements of 844PC & 1532PC, recognizes that in certain, rare circumstances it is to the benefit of all involved that the plice make entry without letting the occupants know they are coming in. I can think of a couple situations where this might be needed - not many though.

[Mike in VA]

Shooting thru the door would be highly irresponsible IMO. Consider:
1. You don't know your target or whats behind it.
2. You don't know their intent.
3. You don't know their ability to do you harm (i.e. are they armed? how big are they? anyone else with them/ . . .)
4. You aren't in jeopardy yet.
I would, however, grab nightstand gun and flashlight, get behind cover and prepare to make it the worst day of their life when the door lets go and I have a clear shot at a legitimate threat. Stay safe, M2

[ek127]

Erick,
Maybe you should be a little less "politically correct" when you don the hat as a moderator. PreserveFreedoms response was BULL#@!
Its always appaling when a few BAD Cops make alot of good cops look bad. However, statements like his about killing Cops diserves a little better response then trying to convince that moron that search warrants are legal.

EK

[Quartus]

Whether that is a good thing or bad, is not for me to decide.

Oh, yes it is! Emphatically so! You are an American citizen! You have the responsibility to see to it that your govenment doesn't get out of line!

That said, shooting cops as a means of "sending them a message" is not my idea of good citizenship. But neither is a blanket acceptance of all that is done in the name of Law and Order.

[cuerno de chivo]

Edited because captainHoek said it much more nicely.

[PreserveFreedom]

I can see the point of cops doing a no knock raid thinking they are just doing their job. However, the German soldiers that killed thousands of Jewish people were also doing their jobs. This being said, no matter what a warrant says, it is not valid until served. If 30 cops die before I see a piece of paper, they were trespassers at the time. It's a chance they take I guess. They should have known right from wrong.

[Erick Gelhaus]

...breath in, breath out...

I see no comparision between local law enforcement in this country - as it is practiced in my neck of the woods - and the actions of the Nazi Party aduring the 30s and 40s.

While I am aware of "abuses" by law enforcement, my awareness of them comes from the same media that tars all Gun Owners with the actions of a few criminals. In some cases, the media grossly under-reports that events; in others they dramatically overstate them.

As for those who advocate the shooting of anyone who enters their residence without identifying the threat - criminal or peace officer - you need to re-think your position. I know where my lines, or mental triggers, are. This is not only in terms of the Constitution but in response terms as well.

*************
This thread was on shooting through doors, not the arguable area of "No-Knock" warrants. It returns to the subject or it will locked.

[STEVE M]

To get back to the question asked;
I think your best bet would be to grab gun(s) and verbaly challenge them through the door. If they are intent on doing you harm, I see no problem with shooting through the door. In this senario you live alone, so you don't have to worry about other family members getting shot.

[KSFreeman]

Hold your fire. Can't you just ask who the heck it is instead of reconning by fire like the mall ninja do? Aren't we better behaved than the Dreaded Demons of Darkness? I believe the technical term for this innovative "tactical" (I'm wearing black right now) concept is "verbal compliance."

PF, why don't we just abolish the moronic laws that the mall ninja enforce like, oh, I don't know, the NFA!!! That time may be coming, Mr. Bowman; however, I do everything (and pray real hard) that it doesn't come.

[Quartus]

Help me here, I'm ignorant!

What is a mall ninja? I thought it was those clowns who can be seen walking around malls trying to 'let on' (by their T-shirts, gestures, etc.) that they are reeeely bad dudes, highly skilled in the mysterious martial arts.

In another context (here on TFL) it seems to refer to mall security "rent-a-cops".

The way Freeman just used it doens't seem to fit either.

BTW, Freeman, would you shoot through the door with your 106? :D


As for shooting through the door, I wouldn't categorically say that I would never do that. But I'd have to be awfully sure of who was on the other side first. Sure enough to risk the life of one of my family. Sure enough to risk going to jail and leaving them to fend for themselves.

Because no less than that is at stake.

[Edward429451]

Here in colorado, you'd probably get away with shooting thru the door. They got whats coined the 'make my day' law which means you can use deadly force in defense of your residence.
The way the question was put down, no one yelled police, so what do you have? An armed homeowner in the locked bedroom, and an unknown if armed, but known violent person DEMONSTRATING violence on your locked door. (known to be violent because he is kicking the door at this moment, in front of you) Is it reasonable to assume that they will continue to be violent if they enter the room? That is the call. You probably could get away with shooting thru the door but what if its a drunk neighbor or old friend, come to suprise you, with no malicious intent? I'd feel bad then, even if aquitted. Better to take up a defensive position with your arm, and announce your presence and that you are armed. If you tell em you are armed and to leave, and they continue to come....better to be tried by twelve.
many other situationals to consider (how vicious IS the attack on the door, the more vicious, the sooner you shoot. The good thing in that situation is that you are at home. They carried violence into YOUR HOME, and destroyed the sanctity of it etc.

[Edward429451]

Mike in VA,
You could reasonably assume their intent was violence, since they are demonstrating violence on your door at this moment. As to gauging their ability to harm you, you could reasonably assume their ability by the degree of viciousness to the attack on the door. And respond appropriately.

[eyeball]

what kind of friends do you have? are they goofy n stuff?

are your family members the type where its alright to show up at anytime?

do you have a psycho (but cool) girlfriend?

are there any kids that live near you?

there are many intervening variables you have to take into consideration.

[KPS]

Here in MA CCW holders have less right than the criminals.I would wait until that door opened to see if the person was armed or not.If i were to ask him/her whether they were armed and they said yes even though they weren't and I shot them through the door I would go to jail.It could also be a neighbor needing emergency help and they felt breaking into your home to get your help was desperately needed.I think an alarm system or big dog would help avoid being in this situation.Also most firearms safety courses tell you not to blind fire.

[Spectre]

I will most certainly take all measure necessary to defend my domicile. I don't care if someone kicking down my door is armed or not. He's kicking down my door!

I am only concerned with no stray shots downrange. If I am certain of Mr. Moron's position (my br door is rather fragile, so perhaps I can see where his body is?), I will light 'im up, quick, fast, and in a hurry.

I trust that is sufficiently clear, as I have been known to waffle now and again.

[STEVE M]

Spectre, when did you ever waffle:D

[Spectre]

I'm sure it's happened sometime. :D

[Mike in VA]

Edward429451, with all due respect, I don't feature shooting on assumption, I would hold my fire until I know who/what I'm shooting (besides, it's hard to score effective COM shots thru a door).

Uh, how do I know it isn't my deaf-mute neighbor down the hall trying to let me know the building is on fire? If there was more evidence of intent, i.e. yelling and screaming threats directed at me by name or something like that, well now things are getting interesting . . . but I'm still holding my fire until I know who and why I'm shooting. That, I would assume, they're going to be asking about that afterwards.
M2

[Cheapo]

Immediate verbal challenge, preferably after the 911 operator comes on the line. I see no point in telling them that I am armed.

If the phone line is dead, I will probably shoot immediately after the 1/2-second reaction time needed for the door-kicker to stop or speak. I am willing to live with an unfortunate "coincidence" that phone service is out, and will reasonably believe that my door-kicker has already cut my phone lines.

If they respond and say "Police," how do you know that they really are? We've had a few home invasion burglaries and murders involving imposters. If they say "Police," the command is "Stop and put the warrant under the door!"

If they have said "Police" but do not stop or if there is no paper forthcoming, I shoot at the sounds, in a six-inch progression from the center point.

BUT

If they keep kicking, the phone line is live and they never respond to the verbal challenge(s), I would not shoot until the door shows signs of being breached. I would have a higher threshold of "imminent danger" under those circumstances.

Think it through, friends.

[zot]

in Iowa the only way to legally shoot someone is first dial 911,
yell to the person on the other side of door, and wait till they
bust the door down,THEN you can shoot IF they have a weapon,
and if you blow their brains out you will get in trouble, try to wound. no self defense here, if someone is actually chasing you,
you can't shoot them till they come inside your home. this is where kids get busted for pointing red water pistols at another
kid and get charged with assault. in my sons junior high they are
not allowed to say gun, kill,murder, and a few other words, these
words can get the kid a 3 day in school suspension. things are getting crazy.

[Art Eatman]

I go along with the comments about "be prepared", as to cover and firearm-readiness.

However: There are cases on record of a drunk using his key to his house, and mistakenly opening a door in a similar-appearing house in a tract. One of these actually wound up in bed with the wrong-house owner and his wife! Strange stuff happens at O-Drunk-thirty!

Shifting emphasis a bit, I had a motel clerk give me a key to an already-occupied room. A bit late at night, and the occupant who was already asleep was not at all pleased to seem some strange dude coming through the door. Maybe I was lucky?

I've also had persistent drunks not believe that my motel room was not their motel room. Banging, yelling and cursing. I should have shot?

Trespass and/or terminal stupidity are not capital offenses. Until you have reasonable cause to believe there WILL be harm, you might well have trouble convincing a jury that you shouldn't do some time.

Yes, be prepared for serious trouble. But that Mr. Macho BS can get you a hard time from the DA, and maybe some hard time from a jury.

Art

[Erick Gelhaus]

Art-

Excellant points!

Erick

[Spectre]

Art, I respect you. A lot.

Let me say this, though:

"Darwin happens." I am not speaking of unloading on some poor sap who obviously means me no harm. I am speaking of aimed fire on the malcontent who is kicking my door in. As Edmund Rowe might say to such a person,

"Doom on you."

[Cheapo]

Most, if not all of the potential tragedies we discuss avoiding on these Boards do not fall into the category of

someone is kicking in the door--especially the interior door of your bedroom.

Can we reasonably believe that the drunk is still harmless when he is breaching the peace and about to breach your security barrier?

Some "mistakes" might not truly deserve to be fatal to the perpetrator, but no one should complain if they turn out to be fatal for the Darwin Award Candidate.

[Art Eatman]

Cheapo, you asked, "Can we reasonably believe that the drunk is still harmless when he is breaching the peace and about to breach your security barrier?"

Absent a weapon, probably the answer is yes. Absent a weapon and a verbal threat, a jury *probably* will say "Yes."

Let's say the drunk thinks he's at the right house, and that by the magic of statistical probablity his key fits your door. (I use Master padlocks on my gates. I discovered that a ranch some three miles away uses the same padlock as I; my key fit his lock. I changed my locks...) Anyway, the guy comes home, wants to go to bed, and the door is locked. IN HIS MIND he is in the correct place and is doing with what HE THINKS is his property as he needs in order to get to bed.

So you shoot through the door without having seen him, and his last dying words to the cops and EMS are, "But I was in my own home!"

And I say unto you: You ain't gonna be happy with the consequences. Think of the DA as a steamroller, and you're a bug on the pavement.

Art

[younggenious]

what if a armed criminal breaks into your house and yells "Police, Search warrant" or something close to that. how would you know what to do then?
uh oh...you might have to think on this one. lol

[MassExodus]

I think you should AT LEAST wait until you find out if they are trying to roust you out of bed 'cuz your house is on FIRE!

Besides, if it IS a crazed Methamphetamines speed freak coming in, I want to witness the look of surprise on his face.

[Erick Gelhaus]

It seems to come back to the need to positively ID the Threat and be able to articulate why you shot - Intent and Present Ability, as you perceived them.

[Cheapo]

Art, if the kicking continues after I've verbally challenged, there's no statetment of "POLICE" and no warrant, and even if the phone line is still live, I cannot reasonably assume that ANY drunk is still harmless.

Even if the response is incoherent drunken babbling, I'm very reluctant to let the kicker reach contact distance. That circumstance would require me to see the door breaking--the ability to harm me becomes apparent, and I will fire once entry appears possible and I can locate my target--like the vicinity of the hand that's reaching through the door.

[nbk2000]

As an aside, people are assuming that if you DO shot through the door, that somehow the police will automatically know and the DA is going to prosecute.

If you lived in the country where I do, the nearest neighbor is more than 1/2 mile away. I don't think they'd hear any shots from inside of my house, or even care if they did.

Afterwards the problem becomes one of getting rid of the miscreants body because I sure the hell am not going to call 911 to have them pick it up.

Obviously a city dweller doesn't have the option of this choice so you'd have to plan on dealing with the police.

[KSFreeman]

nbk2000, I thought the object was to stay out of trouble!? Oh, great, now we have Obstruction of Justice, False Informing, and possibly Abuse of a Corpse in addition to the Murder charge the Prosecuting Attorney will file. Gee, how many times when I was a LEO and now in private practice have I heard "there aren't any witnesses" only discover a dozen later?

We train and study so this sort of thing does not happen. I thought we in the Gun Culture were better people than the mall ninja that do this sort of stuff (hide evidence, distort the truth) out in the open?

Are you an FBI agent by any chance?

[Glamdring]

If someone is kicking/breaking down your door calling 911 is out...I mean at best your looking at a 5 to 10 minute response time after 911 operator understands what you need and assumeing that 911 isn't busy.

As to IDing the target [ie where the target is], that is already done for you he/she/it is in a fatal funnel. I personally would take my chances with a jury and the reasonable man defense with shooting thru the door at the point that I felt the goblin was probably going to get thru the door OR if I hear or sense anything to suggest they are going to use fire [as in gasoline and a match]. Assuming it was a house I owned vs a rental.

I don't think as a practical matter that one must always be able to visually ID a threat. This isn't a hotel room it is your BEDROOM. IMHO it is much like the Tueller drill, if you let them thru the door then your going to be behind in the speed reaction curve. If you let them in your still going to have to make a shoot no shoot decesion at near contact range in a big hurry, unless you have a real big bedroom. And one needs to remember that in real life even if you hit the goblin that won't stop them right now so if you wait until they are thru the door so you can confirm that they are a threat before you start shooting....

I don't know about the rest of the people here but most if not all of the bedrooms I have had, didn't have much more than 5 feet between the edge of the bed and the door. And I don't think even on a good day that I could honestly glance at a person and then shoot them fast enough at that range to stop them before it becomes a weapon retention problem, if I had been sound asleep just a minute ago.

[M1911]

nbk2000:

And besides disposing of the body, you'll have to dispose of his car, fix the door, and hope no-one saw him going up towards your house, etc.

No thanks.

M1911

[Gino]

Let me add one more variable to the mix. My girlfriend is disabled and can not take any blunt-force trauma, and is relatively immobile. If there is someone breaking down my bedroom door, I can't afford to take time-consuming chances...

One thing noone has mentioned is the idea of installing a strong door/jam combo with a good lock. The average bedroom door wouldn't stop any determined attacker for more than a couple of seconds. Slowing down an potential BG is a good thing, right? (Provided there are no children in the house.)

[Erick Gelhaus]

Gino-

While I cannot truly appreciate your situation, waiting to positively ID the Threat is not a time consuming chance.

[David Park]

Here's an example from Real Life:
A week or two ago, I was getting ready for bed late one night when I heard some commotion outside my apartment. This is not too unusual where I live, but it continued for some time and seemed different than the normal rowdy kids. I finally looked out my window and saw a cop, several EMTs (one with a bullhorn, which I realized was one of the strange noises) and some relatives of a resident (elderly man?) in the second-floor apartment in the building across from mine. I realized they had been trying to contact the resident for several minutes, and receiving no response were now using a ladder to enter the second-floor bedroom window. Once they began entry, they were cautious but more-or-less silent until several of them had entered the apartment.

Now, I thought, what if this had been me? I'm a sound sleeper, so if I was already asleep and they had been entering my apartment, the first moment I probably would have realized it would have been when they came through the window and stepped on me. :eek: Would I be justified in "defending my home with lethal force" upon waking up to a man wearing a dark T-shirt and pants with no obvious markings standing over my bed? In VA, maybe yes. Does that mean it's a good idea? I don't think so.

Always positively identity your target. (Isn't that rule 4 of basic gun safety?) Flash the intruder with a Surefire, say "freeze, I have a gun", and chances are the situation will be quickly defused either way. If not, well, you still have your gun and can take appropriate action.

Note that in the above situation, the EMT could just have easily gotten in to the main room of the apartment another way, and then proceeded to enter the locked bedroom. Given the flimsy interior doors here, one swift kick would probably do it.

[Art Eatman]

I have been a renter. A couple of times I have asked my landlord if I could upgrade certain doors. Invariably the answer was "Yes."

So your bedroom has a hollow-core door. Where is it cast in concrete or engraved on steel that you cannot replace the cheesy piece of garbage with a "real" door? If a landlord objects, you thank him for assuming full civil liability for your safety. :)

Where is it written that you cannot modify the entry doors to prevent any sort of easy entry? It is easy to add a deadbolt, and the add-on braceplates are decorative.

If you have not made some sort of security improvements in your residence, why not? I guarantee you that whatever money you spend will be far less than you will pay in legal fees, even in the event of a "good" shooting.

Art

"Maximum cruelty is forcing somebody to think."

[nbk2000]

KSFreeman, IF I was an FBI agent, I could shot an unarmed woman holding a baby through the head or crush a building with a tank, burn it to the ground with 80 men, woman, and children inside, and not have to worry about even a slap on the wrist.

BUT, since I'm not an FBI Agent, and live in KKKalifornia, I'd rather take the (where I live) very remote chance of a witness seeing someone walk into my house in the middle of the rural (hence no lights) night, hearing shots from inside a ranch house constructed of solid wood timbers, and calling the sheriff, then the absolute sureity (SP?) of being arrested, prosecuted, and probably convicted and sent to prison to be surrounded by the very trash I killed IF I called the police to report it.

Besides, my neighbors hear me shooting at night all the time, pest control, so they'd think nothing of hearing a few shots.

Is a "Mall Ninja" anything like a "|<3\/\/|_" (Kewl Hacker)?

Sounds like it. A person, who through outrageous boasts and grandeous statements, tries to make himself appear more skillful than he actually is, or more knowledgable than those around him. If that's the brush you want to paint me with, just make sure you don't get any of that paint on yourself.

As I implied in my first post, the response all depends on your situation. Neighbors, local laws, etc. Use your own judgement about YOUR particular situation. I already have.

[KSFreeman]

nbk2000, the FBI questions is a reference to the fact that it is SOP for the FBI (and most fed mall ninja) to commit perjury, obstruct justice and alter evidence. See, e.g., the examples you cite Ruby Ridge and Waco (sun spots on the muzzles of M16s?).

Ninja is slang for cop. Jeff Cooper, to my knowledge, first started to refer to the SWAT-types as this. It has grown to refer to all cops as the militarization of our police continues without abatement. Mall ninja is the combination of mall cop and ninja. See the lates issue of any gun rag that feature police and "mall cop" reverbs at every page. (Aside: my favorite is the latest issue of American Handgunner where they show a ninja doing his "high speed, low drag" tactical/practical rubbish WITH AN UNLOADED HK54!!!).

If you shoot someone inside your house, alter the "crime" scene, feed the body to the hogs (and throw the head in a garbage bin in a grocery store in Indianapolis, Mr. Bowman), drive the vehicle that the BG came in into the lake or river, and wipe up the blood, you look (even if you are totally in the right) guilty. The Prosecuting Attorney (or District Attorney in the PRK) will be on you like a bum on a ham sandwhich with many new and exciting crimes to accuse you of.

That's why you use verbal compliance first to ascertain the intent before you "recon by fire" like the mall ninja do. Bang, bang, bang, stop police! The last thing in the world you want to do is pull the trigger on someone. However, if you do, be ready for Problem #2.

[Spectre]

In the classes I have taken, verbal challenge is taught. I do understand that these classes are often geared toward peace officers.

I deliberately give offense to none I meet, and do my best to avoid trouble. If someone is undertaking violence in my domicile, I will prosecute the threat until it is no longer threatening. Verbal challenge will only be given if I have the extreme luxury to do so with reasonable safety to myself.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Thumbnail?u=143489&a=1050557&p=13665596&Width=100&Height=100&Sequence=2

[centralpadoug]

Come on...there's really only one answer. Assuming you are adequtely armed, do you really feel shooting through a door is going to help in the long run. The saying "the devil you know" comes to mind.

I would prefer to SEE what my options are...the first through the door would see the same thing those behind the door would see anyway...only I'd be in control. This "control" would relate to the legal hassles that would surely follow either way and during the time we work our disagreements.

If it would come down to shooting through a door I'd rather be out the window, and take a defensive position in my neighbors yard...in other words get the H--l out of dodge. Besides, why the heck was the dog sleeping through the house entry in the first place;) .

[Hard Ball]

If some one or someones is kicking in my bedroom door in the middle of the night they have signed their own release. One clip through the door, reload and see who was there.

[Art Eatman]

Ah, yes, Hardball. Even if it's your mommy coming in to spank you, your wife quite irate about your pregnant girlfriend, or your pregnant sweetie who's not real pleased about the alleged vasectomy.

Where is it written that the kicker is a bad GUY?

:D, Art

[Joe Botz]

what have to dail 911! I don't have a phone in my bedroom,,and what if after the asshle gets through the door I don't care if he is 110 pounds and un armed,,I do not have to put my life in potential danger no matter how small the chance is that they might get a chance to possibly kill me,,,I feared for my life,,if they are drunk tough feces,,don't get drunk,,do I have to take the chance that this skell might get a chance at getting my firearm and using it on me? NOT,,I know this to be fact,,I lived it in NY,,should I have grappled with this scumbag and take the chance that his high arse would get my firearm? FFUk no! this is total BS and don't make excuses for a holes bad judgement etc.....noone tells them to act other than responsibly! No more excuses for anyone trying to harm me or you,,,don't murder just do what you gotta do,,no ones life is worth taking a chance,,and ffuk the a holes out there that think that they can act like a hole,,,more of them wether civialians or LEO's should be held reponsible one way or the other,,,and this from a retired LEO...p.s. god forbid my ass had gotten shot while on the job,,well you take the good with the bad,,,it is part of the job,,if I wanted a safe job I would have been a librarian,,,Semper Fi

[Hard Ball]

Art-

"good people are not "kicking down my bedroom door in the middle of the night." I am a peaceful and loveable person unless provoked, but some one who is "kicking down my bedroom door in the middle of the nigh ."is being Very provoking.:D

[Quartus]

Joe, please use some carriage returns instead of ,,,

Your post is very hard to read.

[Art Eatman]

Joe, I don't think anybody is suggesting that one wait until the Bad Guy is inside and close enough for grappling.

I have no objection whatsoever to the use of deadly force; I'm merely saying that shooting through the door at what is basically just a loud noise can get you some time in the slammer. It's a matter of circumstance.

Another Devil's Advocate point: What if the kicker has a hostage in front of him as a shield as he's doing this kicking? Over and over, haven't we all heard, "Identify your target"?

All I've suggested in any of my posts is that thinking before doing is a Good Thing. I'm not at all suggesting doing nothing...

:), Art

[SamH]

If I may make a suggestion....

The three questions to ask before using deadly force (ie. shooting the prick):

Is the aggressor equipped to use deadly force?
In the case of someone trying to kick down your bedroom door - you don't know! So don't shoot.

Is the aggressor in a position to use deadly force?
If he or she is behind your bedroom door, probably not. So don't shoot.

Is the aggressor demonstrating intent to use deadly force?
He or she is acting violently. If you feel that this is enough indication of his or her intent to use deadly force, I'll leave the decision up to the reader.

Those three questions are the bare minimum. If all three of the above questions had been 'yes', then I would shoot the idiot. Otherwise, no, since I wouldn't like to be locked up in a cubicle with a wretched murderer for company.

My 2 cents.... :)

[Spectre]

Y'know, as I was getting in bed last night, this thread came to mind. Statements about mothers, grandmothers, and friends attempting to extricate us from potential danger came to mind, and as they did, the utter absurdity of such comments struck me, and I laughed, because any friend or relative of mine will most assuredly be loudly identifying themselves if placed in a position to need to break into my occupied bedroom. Just food for thought.

[CrociJA]

Gentlemen,

For what it's worth I add my two cents.
I'm currently building a house, and I never REALLY understood the entire building process before.
Here in North-Central Florida the homes are well insallated, and wood frame.
I always though their would be some brick and cinder involved (travel 100 miles South and almost all the new homes being built are cinder), this being said I look around my house and see that even if I were to shot a .38 from outside into the house, it would probably penetrate at least into the house.
Didn't exactly give me a "warm, fuzzy".
However when the house was still in the planning stage, along with the metal exterior doors I had them put me down for two solid-core doors: Master Bedroom and one Guest Bedroom.
There is a deadbolt on the MBR door which can only been seen from the inside.
To cut to the chase, if I heard MY bedroom door being bashed down, I'd hand the cellphone to my wife, grab my pistol and wait.
I've been through this particular drill before, the "intruders" will probably get a terse "I'm armed, the police are on the way..."
I know for a FACT that I would hold fire till I identified the target, granted that may give the intruder the chance to fire on me, or rush through the door with the other mall-ninja's.
The fact is there is NO pat answer, we've read the articles and know the drills. When you pull that trigger you are opening a Pandora's box, you won't know what happens until a minute afterwards.
1. You've either held off from shooting a drunk, and/or disorderly who is now very shaken.
2. You have a goblin at gunpoint.
3. You are now in a Mexican-Standoff with LEO's, or what LOOKS like LEO's.
Tough question, no pat answers.
Hate to say this but regardless of what the laws say, I don't trust my life, my wife's or anyone elses to them. I could be 100% in the right and still be fried in court or "light up" the bedroom and be completely exonerated.:eek:
The key is to have a "layered" defense.
1. Outdoor lights.
2. Loyal pet(s).
3. Security Alarm.
4. Solid interior/exterior doors and windows.
5. Solid plan of action (much like a fire-drill).

Ehhh,

Sorry I took so long...

Jon

[Art Eatman]

CrociJA, it sounds like you've put some thought into the deal, rather than "thinking in slogans" or going heavy into an ego-trip...

We live in a world where juries give huge sums of money to people as a reward for being stupid. We live in a world where DAs don't believe in one's right of self-defense, and will happily deliver an "uncaring, calloused murderer" to the tender mercies of the judgements of these same sorts of jurors.

Not only do I want the odds on my side in the event of the need for deadly force in self-defense, I want the odds on my side when the Grand Jury meets to decide on indictments.

:), Art

[Spectre]

I remember, some months ago, my dog started making some noise between 0300 and 0400. I quietly "shushed" her, and went back to sleep. She promptly woke me back up, a little more loudly, this time. I told her to be quiet. ZZZ...
Ruff!
Quiet, dammit!...and then, I heard the knocking...
I wondered why the police would be at MY door, as I couldn't think of anyone else who would be knocking on my door in the wee hours (none of my family is in GA). I apologized to my dog, and picked up my P-11 JUST IN CASE.

Looking through the peephole, I saw no-one, but did see a black bag. I stepped back from the door (far enough that it couldn't hit me, even if forced), and opened the door with my right hand, chain on, while keeping my P-11 in my left, pointed at the floor. Before I could ask who it was, I heard a

John! It's me!, and Spartacuses' head popped into view.

Sure, people can show up unexpectedly. I will NEVER shoot through at someone who is just knocking, whether inner or outer door. On the other hand, someone who has just put a limb through my bedroom door has demonstrated their ability to hurt me gravely, and I am, indeed, in fear for my life, and I have nowhere to run.

[Glamdring]

How long does it take to bust a solid core door, the solid core usually isn't anything very strong unless you special order it, with nothing but your empty hands or feet? My boss at one of my jobs manages a lot of rental units. He has opened many dead bolted doors by basically "bumping them," he isn't very strong he weighs around 220 though. Have worked with "ex" goblins that weighted about the same that were much stronger...one in particular I am sure could punch thru any non metal door likely to be in a house.

Art: Many leases forbid any changes to house/apt, and your usually prohibited from changing the locks. Not saying you can't but that your breaking the law that way also, and that your doing so in a way that can end up with landlord or LEO's busting in with the law on their side. From a personal security standpoint renting sucks.

SamH: You said "Is the aggressor equipped to use deadly force? In the case of someone trying to kick down your bedroom door - you don't know! So don't shoot. Is the aggressor in a position to use deadly force? If he or she is behind your bedroom door, probably not. So don't shoot. Is the aggressor demonstrating intent to use deadly force? He or she is acting violently. If you feel that this is enough indication of his or her intent to use deadly force, I'll leave the decision up to the reader. "

I would say if they can break the door down they have demonstrated that they could seriously hurt or kill me.

Are they in a position to use deadly force? Depends how you look at it, my arguement would be similar to the one used against knife armed person at 7 yards [ie Tueller drill]. Except they are closer than in the Tueller drill and I was sound asleep but a moment ago, talk about being behind in the OODA loop.

I would feel whoever is breaking down a bedroom door has if not deadly intent the intent to do sever bodily harm to the people inside.
***

Does your opinion of this situation change if the person in the bedrooom is female? Or disabled/elderly?

[Spectre]

Or, weighs 146 lbs? :D

[Oleg Volk]

Personally, I'd be scrambling to get behind bullet-proof cover or, at least, concealment. Then I'd like to cover the door and check the windows in my peripheral vision. Getting ear muffs on would help, too -- can still hear through them but won't mess up hearing as badly.

Source of the noise could be a cat that got in through a window, or wind or new neighbor's stereo but unID'd visitors would be kept at gunpoint.

I wouldn't light up through the door but if the visitors are hostile, then ventilating the place through the walls is OK as they can do the same to you. Doesn't work as well if you have kids' bedroom down the hall from you.

[Mannlicher]

Do you guys see something fundamentaly wrong here? It is real sad when we in America are more in fear of the legal system and cops, than we are of the miscreaent kicking in the door to what has heretofore been considered one's sanctum sanctorum. Face it, when the door is being kicked in at 2am, you don't have a lot of time to consider all the crap that has been posted here about 'what if this' or 'what if that'. You would have about three seconds, groggy, disoriented, to make a decision. For me, it is going to be a lot of #3 buckshot from the Mossberg sitting by the bed. Some one can sort it out later. I still believe that being judged by 12 better than being carried by 6.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Three pages in length and all the issues have been addressed as best as I can tell. Plus, it's off topic again.

Questions or comments, please contact me.

Erick