Warning! Slide breakage P22

[wayneniamat]

This is a reprint of my post on rimfirecentral.com.
-------------------------------
I purchased an absolutely mint condition pre-owned Walther P22 Target several months ago.

The gun had zero wear and tear, and even the seller noted the pistol is near impossible to tell from brand new. I would say it had never been fired before.

When I first got it I tried one 50 round box of the stingers but the gun didn't feed well on 'hot' loads so I've been shooting Winchester Dynapoint through the gun mostly and it has about 6000 rounds through it.

Each visit to the range I would go through a 500 round box. Thats only 12 visits to the club in about 8 months.

The last range session the slide locked back after a shot and even after ejecting the mag and depressing the slide lock, it wouldn't go forward. I hit the slide from the rear and it shut. Well, I racked the slide several times thinking maybe the rails got fouled up even though its never happened before. There was too much resistance right before full slide retraction. It didn't feel right. I found when I pulled the slide back firmly, with no mag, the slide would stay back. I racked the slide several times again, with more vigor this time. It still stayed open when I pulled it back slowly.

I gotta say, 'thank God' I bothered to look at the front of the slide at all. If I had chambered another round, to test fire it, that slide could've broke free and hit my face or the candidate-member standing behind me. As far as I can tell, the front of the slide, that wraps around the muzzle of the barrel, is all that prevents the slide from sailing right back off its rails. Take a look at the pics...the slide is ready to tear free from this anchor point.

Let me stress...IT'S HARD TO shift from "im having so much fun shooting this fantastic little pistol" to "let me see if the slide is seconds away from breaking loose of the frame". I mean, why not just push the slide forward and fire the gun again? "Maybe with the actual recoil the slide will free itself up and stop sticking."

Ironically, last week I made a video while I field stripped the pistol after what I believe is the 6000round mark and in my narration I praise the function of the gun. The pistols concept is great and I was in love with the gun.

The 6000 round field strip video is online and so are pics of the broken slide. I'm gonna rush to post the email of the seller describing the gun as flawless to remove any doubt the pistol has fired more than my claim of 6000 rounds. I also have every single receipt from Walmart where I buy basic ammunition and not expensive hot loads.

I asked Walther for help but I realise it doesn't make a difference whether they help me replace this slide or not. I'm compelled to make this incident public.

I worry for you people that have your wives and children shooting this pistol cause I fear they may not grasp the gravity of a symptom like this 'sticky' slide.

View pics of slide here
http://home.cogeco.ca/~wayne_storage1/WALTHERP22_CRACKED_SLIDE.html
or here
http://home.cogeco.ca/~wayne_storage2/WALTHERP22_CRACKED_SLIDE.html

Alternate (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/wayneniamat/album?.dir=mail&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/wayneniamat/my_photos) server for pics

Please post any Walther forums you know of here so i can get this message out. Everyone reading this also has my permission to post the above link anywhere a Walther P22 owner might find it. I am more than willing to answer any questions. Leave them here as replies so the community can follow along.

Note: I'd say this fella, Handy, is a darn prophet! http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162559&highlight=WALTHER+P22

[Capt. Charlie]

Wayne, the link to your site is bad :( .

[Wildalaska]

If Walther has even the slightest notion a slide on ONE of their models is prone to breaking I say EVERY product they make is suspect.

OK....

Is that universal to all firearms companies or just Walther...if so...that takes care of all gun companies

WildisthatcorrectAlaska

[wayneniamat]

Hi.

Some consumers pointed out I might have been too hasty in condemning Walther. Yes. I accept now that I got what I paid for. Only I am to blame.

The report should just state the facts: the slide broke after 6000 rounds with basic ammunition so I amended the post.

Others have asked what Walther has offered in terms of assistance. The pistol broke on the evening of Thursday June 2nd 2005. I wrote Walther customer service an email on Friday June 3rd and it's only Sunday as I write this update so hardly any time has elapsed. I'd like to point out again though, I have no legitimate claim to warranty repair.

[Te Anau]

The P22 is truly a lousy gun.I cant believe they sell to anyone who knows anything about guns.I saw a new one last week and they wanted $349.00 for it! :barf:

[jonathon]

I was looking at a P22 at a gunshow recently, and the gentleman that was selling it informed me that I wanted an automatic, I should look at the Ruger MkII's he had(which were $75 cheaper..). I asked why not this one, and he told me the slide was pot metal and not very strong. Also, he mentioned for the P22, all you get is the Walther name and something that looks similiar to the very nice p99..

[azrael]

All things made by man can fail...OR what WildAlaska said (my way is prettier!)

That being said....Me and my bro Jason have put prolly 6-8 (3 of us put 800 to 1000 rds through it the first day he got it!) thousand rounds through his P22 AND used it as a holster pattern around 25-30 times...Still works like a charm :D

wayneniamat....Give Walther the chance to take a look at it, and see if they will cut ya a deal on a new slide...

jonathan...Ruger .22's and there wheelies are the only guns they make that I will even look at :p

[johndavid400]

Sure, the P22 is not a 50lb hunk of metal like the MKII or Buckmark, but you knew that when you bought it. You bought a good looking and fun gun, but a tank. Those of you who expect your P22's to hold up like your Ruger's are not thinking realistically. I for one have had 2 P22's that both have more than 7k rounds through them and not a single problem, but thats just me.

Recently, I thought I had a problem and contacted S&W customer service. They sent me a shipping label and told me to send it in for them to fix. I realized that I was wrong about what I thought the problem was and there was actually no problem at all, but it was good to know that they were more than willing to fix my gun for me.

I would suggest that you call S&W and tell them that your problem (I wouldn't offer the info that you are not the original owner.... unless the ask), and see what they can do for you. I am will to bet that they will fix it for you for free and give you a new slide. Then you can sell your POS and buy a real gun ;) .
But beware, you won't find another .22lr that is as much fun to shoot as the P22.

[wayneniamat]

Check the page, I've posted S&W's email response. They want me to send them the gun.

This might be the end of the line for my American readers but Canadians should keep posted cause the fun has only just begun.

It's already started with the dealer I got the gun from in Edmonton, Alberta. I posted their 'abrupt' reply.

If anyone from Canada has experience in matters like this(shipping firearms between US/CANADA) please contact me.

[Jack Malloy]

I was very tempted to buy one of these, until I saw that the slide was made of aluminum.
I think that it would have been a better gun had they just installed an iron or even mild steel slide rather than aluminum. The $15 they saved by using an aluminum slide won't make up with the disatisfied customers who are pissed when their pistol breaks.
Non enthusiasts who dont follow magazines or the internet will have a cow when they buy used ones which break in a few years.
Remember the whole .380 nightmare S&W made for itself a few years back with a non ferrous alloy slide?

[wayneniamat]

The dealer I purchased the gun from on consignment P&D Enterprises in Edmonton, Alberta, made zero effort to help me resolve this issue. As if they didn't make any money when they sold me the gun.

I've made contact with the Walther's distributor in the Toronto area and they've asked me to send them the gun.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Your community helped me through the ordeal.

I've seen references to some people carrying the P22 as a weapon. I'm no expert but I doubt that was Walther's intention.

[wayneniamat]

Jack, I had posted the issue on rimfirecentral and the material and manufacturing was touched on in further detail. http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96595

The gun is so much fun to shoot, half the price and essentially the same operation of a combat caliber gun and cute as hell. The mistake might be to forget its for plinking only and to believe everything with the Walther logo on it is sanctioned by Herr Majesty's Secret Service. ;)

[Handy]

It isn't aluminum - it's cast Zinc. Like Hotwheels cars.


All sorts of guns get slide cracks. We'll see if Walther has a bunch of them or not. .22 does not beat stuff up like the .380s in those Sigmas.

[wayneniamat]

"The 2003 Walther catalog (http://www.waltheramerica.com/manuals/Walther_catalog.pdf) says "...P22...it's at home hunting, backpacking or target shooting." The catalog refers to the larger counterparts as "defensive" and "combat ready". That catalog is still prominent on waltheramerica.com.

That they're leading the buyer to come to the conclusion I did seems too obvious to dispute. The pistol is for fun NOT defense of life."

Just thought I'd point the obvious out for those that only look at pictures and available accessories to decide on a defensive pistol.

And at that I'd like to bow outta here before Walther retracts their offer.

[johndavid400]

The pistol is for fun NOT defense of life

Who ever said this would be a good gun for defense of life? It is a fun little plastic .22, nothing more. If you ever come across a .22 that looks as good and is as fun to shoot as the P22 and only costs $229, you let me know and I will be more than willing to buy one. The only thing that even comes close is the Bersa Thunder .22 and they are around $235 and dang near impossible to find.

I have a SW99 as well and my buddy has the P99 and they are both excellent weapons and are made well. The P22 is a replica of the P99 that actually fires real bullets.... think of it as a novelty gun that is a blast to shoot, not something to pass on to the grandkids. If the $229 price tag for a plastic and zinc pistol bothers you that much, get the MKII and I'm sure you will be much happier.

It's kind of like the Desert Eagles. They are the only (to my knowledge) autoloading pistols chambered in .50ae, .44mag, and .357mag and they are very fun to shoot. HOWEVER, both times that I have shot one, it jammed consistently. For $800-$1200 you would think that it would be a flawlessly functioning weapon, but it was not meant for self-defense, so reliability was not the main priority, it is more of a novelty gun and some use it for hunting (for which the occasional jam does not mean life or death for the user). People know that they have their issues occasionally and people still buy them.

I have owned 2 Ruger's (a MKI and a MKII) and have traded back to my P22 both times. And now I wouldn't trade my P22 for a Ruger anyday... even if the slide cracks, I will get it fixed and keep going as I am sure that most P22 owners would.

[wayneniamat]

johndavid400,

You asked "Who ever said this would be a good gun for defense of life?"

Buddy, I'm not writing this stuff for you. You know it ALL. I'm writing for people who can still question.

It took me 5 frggn minutes to thresh out these people considering the P22 as a self defense gun, some for their WIVES. I bet theres dozens more.

Here's a few posts on YOUR bloody forum talking about using the p22 for self defense. Go post on their threads.

Now go on! Go somewhere you might do some good. Help THOSE people! ...trying to stir it up in here... some people got nothing better to do.

[in my best texas drawl] I'm performing a 'gawd-dam' public service here and some people wanna give me grief. :rolleyes:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159176&page=2&pp=25&highlight=p22
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171461&highlight=p22+defense
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161078&highlight=p22+defense
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83807&highlight=p22+defense

[Double Naught Spy]

I gotta say, 'thank God' I bothered to look at the front of the slide at all. If I had chambered another round, to test fire it, that slide could've broke free and hit my face or the candidate-member standing behind me.

I think you are overestimating the power of the .22 lr caliber and potential risk to you and the person behind you. Unless you shoot with the rear of your gun very close to your face, your face won't be hit by the slide. As for the slide breaking free to hit your face, it may break free, but the recoil spring is going to push the slide away from your face (assuming it is behind the gun).

The gun is so much fun to shoot, half the price and essentially the same operation of a combat caliber gun and cute as hell.

This isn't unique to Walther in regard to having a similar operation as combat caliber handguns. Caliber doesn't determine operation in semi-auto pistols and most work on all the same basic manners.

[wayneniamat]

This scientist says "...you are overestimating the...potential risk to you...".

I'm sorry, you forgot to introduce yourself. Start with what qualifies YOU to predict what could happen when a Walther P22 breaks 18inches from my face!

...I thought so.

Moderator. Time to close this thread. The gun nuts are showing up.

[AustinMike]

That sucks about the slide cracking. But, to echo what others have said already, stuff like this can happen to the best of them. One of my worst gun experiences was with a brand new Ruger Mark II years back. The thing was a jam-o-matic with any ammo I tried. The disassembly lever in the grip would pop out when firing as well. Sent it in to Ruger and they did some work on it. Took it back out and the damn thing detonated a round outside of the chamber! The gun jammed all up with the brass shrapnel. Sent it in again and they replaced the whole receiver. By this time, I was too shaken to trust it and sold it off. Maybe I got the one made on a Friday afternoon right before the factory closes for the weekend. Stuff happens. Ruger has a good reputation overall, but in this case they let a lemon out. I was mad for a while, but it's nothing that would make me want to rally up a crowd with torches and pitchforks to storm the castle. :D I got over it and I'd buy from them again. Push on the manufacturer to make things right. If they care about their customers and their reputation, they'll take care of you.

[Jack Malloy]

PD did not manufacture the gun. They sold it to you on consignment. Which means they sold it for somebody else, right?
The problem lies with the manufacturer who decided to scrimp and save $15 bucks by using a ZINC slide instead of even pig iron or mild steel.
Some people will use a small .22 or other mousguns for two reasons. Number one, a hit with a .22 will be more effective than a miss with a .45 and honestly, a gun you carry all the time everywhere is better for self defense than one you leave at home or in the car.
All these guys supposedly packing wide slide HUSPS and Glunks, I cant help but wonder why I never see 'em printing when I am hanging out at Wally World....

>>The dealer I purchased the gun from on consignment P&D Enterprises in Edmonton, Alberta, made zero effort to help me resolve this issue.<<<

[johndavid400]

Wayne, chill out buddy.... I was agreeing with you that the gun is not meant for self-defense, as well as reiterating to the readers that might be reading your thread, that they should not get a P22 as their self-defense weapon. This forum does not tolerate personal attacks on public threads... if you have something mean to say, say it in a PM if at all.

However, You can't go around telling everyone that the P22 is a terrible gun that should be avoided at all costs just because you got a lemon. I am terribly sorry that you could have been hurt, and I am glad that nothing bad happened... but I can find you at least 10 different incidents (with pictures) where a Glock or HK blew up in someones face while shooting. Luckily, none of them were hurt, but point being, it DOES happen to the best of them.

And call me a bad person if you like, but if you want to get that gun of yours fixed, you should not be so flamboyant with your details, especially in your emails to S&W. In fact, it would be better if you just call them. Tell S&W that your slide cracked. Tell them that you want to send it in. If they ask you how many rounds of what brand were fired through it, tell them. But if you want them to fix your gun for free, you would be better off not offering the info that the gun is used and you bought it on consignment and all that jazz. It is likely their fault that the slide cracked and they should fix it, so let them.

[Handy]

Spy,

There are a few people that can tell you that the back end of a broken slide will indeed hit you in the face.

[wayneniamat]

Yeah Jack, P&D didn't have to help. They didn't have to shut the door in my face either. Good customer service is taking that one extra step.

I called another dealer,Tetragon-Tasse, that gentleman dug out the Walther distributor's phone number AND offered to help out if I got any resistance? He wasn't connected to my problem at all but chose to take that extra step to help out.

Folks, I'm not writing for fun. My gun broke 'prematurely'. I thought y'all should know about it. I've tried to document my experience, real-time. You could say I put my chances of having Walther fix the gun on the line doing this. I'm for the people, not weapons manufacturers.

Guess what? I can't wait to start shooting the gun again! I love the gun! I never said put your P22s in the microwave and melt em down.

I'm no expert on gun building but I'm suggesting, the compromise might NOT have occurred during the construction of my particular gun, but in a board-room, long before my gun was built.

My goal is the next time you see someone ask about the p22, you talk about more than just how much fun it is to shoot and the odd feeding issues. You might start with a history of the Saturday Night Special.

[hang on, let me put on my bullet proof vest...]

[johndavid400]

Seriously man, first things first. Get your gun fixed, for free if you can. If the bastards in the board room did indeed cut corners to make production costs lower, you should do whatever you have to do to get your gun fixed for FREE! I know I would.


But c'mon, I would hardly call a 6000 round gun a "saturday night special".
Heck I have put a lot more than 6000 rounds through each of my P22's.

And in all honesty, you probably got your money's worth already if you look at it in mathematical terms. 6000 rounds is approximately 10 bulk packs (550rds per pack) of ammo at $7 a box plus the initial price of the gun (in my case $229) divided by the total number of rounds fired and that would leave you with approximately $.05 per round fired (5 cents per shot). Thats pretty good compared to a lot of guns, though not good at all compared to a MKII that is the same price and will go 100,000 rounds with no breakage. Just a thought.

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, I will play. wayneniamat, you started this thread and I'm sorry, you forgot to introduce yourself. Start with what qualifies YOU to predict what could happen when a Walther P22 breaks 18inches from your face!

Let me help you with your answer with a quote from you..."I'm no expert on gun building..."

...I thought so.

-----

Sorry man, but when I read overly emotional and exagerated claims about what could happen and oh the horrrors of what could happen to bystanders, I am amazed.

I did have part of the information wrong. I had to pull up a complete side view of a P22 to realize where the crack had occurred. Sorry, I had it in a different place and had the slide coming off the rails before coming backwards. I see now that you have it shooting back at your face using the rails as the directional launch platform.

Since you didn't snap of the end, we can't weight it to get an estimate on the mass and then convert the power of the charge of the .22 lr cartridge still present after it has launched the projectile forward, taking into effect friction and the amount of force needed to effect the rest of the break. You simply are not going to have a lot of energy left to fling that part backwards, assuming the part could be flung backwards.

I would have been a lot more impressed if you had a catastrophic stoppage in the barrel that resulted in an overpressure situation, but what is being described here seems to be the back end of the slide coming off during recoil due to some sort of stress fracture that has developed.

But in looking at the pictures, it isn't just the back end of the slide, but the back 4/5. That is a lot of mass to be claiming to be pushed back with damaging force to cause harm with the residual power left in the .22 lr after the slug has moved forward.

Let's see, and the rear 4/5 of the slide will be moving backwards on the rails, those short little rails, and that is going to assume that the dynamic and uncontrolled release of pressure allowing the slide to be forced backwards won't torque the slide on the rails and thereby greatly slowing or totally halting the rearward progression.

And from your posts, wayne, you obviously didn't really think that you were in that much jeopardy of the supposedly dangerous rearward traveling slide. You stated I'm no expert on gun building but I'm suggesting, the compromise might NOT have occurred during the construction of my particular gun, but in a board-room, long before my gun was built.

I am fairly certain that if you thought the gun defective because of some sort of design flaw as you suggest by noting you feel the problem comes from the boardroom, then you would have to be crazy to want to have another and thereby subject yourself to the same design flaw danger and supposedly risk the danger to your head and to that of the bystanders behind you that you claim exists. If it is a design flaw, then it isn't going to be just in your gun, is it? Nope.

So maybe you get a booboo on your lip. I'll bring you a bandaid. Wait, no I won't. There isn't any reason to provide such care for folks who knowingly work with power tools they have deemed defective and dangerous.

[johndavid400]

dang Spy, that was mean... maybe Wayne was a bit zealous about his concern, but you don't need to flame people like that. SEND A PM. This is how threads get closed.

The fact that the P22 slide is made of Zinc alloy is not a desing flaw, it was an innovative and cost effective way to make the slide of the extremely low pressured .22lr handgun. Was it a good idea? Probably not, but they apparently thought it would be or they wouldn't have let it go to production.

Did Glock think that an unsupported barrel was a good idea? They probably would have gone with the extra $10 per gun but they found that it was extremely reliable and the probability of error was extremely low, all things considered.

How many P22 slides have cracked? I know of 2 (including wayne's). How many caused any injury at all? Zero that I know of, due to responsible shooters knowing when something is wrong with their gun and not firing it again. Wayne's concern is valid, he doesn't want the same thing to happen to others. However, it doesn't really change anything for those of us who already own a P22 excpet that it is something to be cautious of. It is still a fun gun to shoot and IMO worth the $229. No other manufacturer has been able to offer a competing gun for the price. You can have a utterly well-built gun or a good looking fun gun... take your pick.


Handy, Does a .22lr ever reach sufficient temperatures to melt Zinc? Or is it just the fact that it costs the same as an all steel gun that bothers you? (serious question, not being an @ss)

[wayneniamat]

I suggested a possible danger. Spy has provided scientific and statistical data proving, without a doubt, there was no danger to me at all. <LoL> I'm relieved.

I don't see a problem here johndavid400.

Thing is, your buddy spy is putting words in my mouth.

I've never said the gun is 'defective'. Defective implies the gun doesn't work. He's trying to say, I think the gun is 'flawed'.

I'll spell it out for the challenged, this includes you too johndavid400. "I ain't never said the gun is flawed or defective. I'm saying it was manufactured cheaply."

Point I've been making all along is ... "the company didn't make no mistake. There ain't no flaws or defects!" They decide ahead of time which aspects of the gun WILL BE MADE to suffer for the sake of economics. Let's have a hand for big business! Everyone gets a fun gun but one out of every 100,000 consumers get's a slide in the face, a broken finger, gets shot drawing down on a bad guy or has an A.D. cause his safety tripped off inadvertantly.

As for me personally, I'm gonna continue to shoot the gun when I get it back. It's the only one I got. The chance that it fails again is drastically reduced I'm sure.

Thanks to those that offered constructive criticism and advice. I've not found any Canadian Walther forums so I may post progress on the canadian repair saga.

I grow weary defending my post from the trolls. Moderator! Lock her down!

[Handy]

I doubt .22 could heat up the barrel sufficiently to transfer the heat to the zinc slide in an amount to melt it.

But the material is brittle and not at all strong. It is used because it melts at such low temps that it is more like dealing with plastic than metal.

I don't much care for polymer, but that material at least offers an added weight savings over any sort of convention aluminum or steel frames. Zinc's ONLY claim to fame is cost savings - it has no material properties that might be considered beneficial to shooters - since retail price is obviously not one of them, in this case.

For those who claim this gun is unique, and therefore worth an all steel .22 price, I would claim they haven't fired a Bersa .22. Alloy frame, forged steel slide, same size, same trigger system, same price.


Zinc is the material used to make Davis and Lorcin disposable bellyguns. It took alot of balls for Walther to offer the same materials in a gun 5 times as expensive.

[johndavid400]

Handy, I would have to agree with you. I would give anything to find someone with a Bersa .22 that I could shoot. I have never seen one in person at a gun show or gun store! The only place I have seen one is on gunbroker and they are $235, which is bull crap because the .380 only costs $199! But I completely agree, it definitely competes with the P22, they are just absolutely scarce where I'm from, that is why I say the P22 has no competition.

So, does the constant warming up (shooting 200 or 300 rounds at once) of the zinc in the slide, cause it to become brittle, or is it just a freak accident when one cracks? I have not heard of this as a consistent problem with the P22's, but It does make me wonder whether or not these guns will inevitably break after much use or if it is indeed a lemon issue. Someone said maybe it was a bad cast?



And Wayne? dude, what were you reading? I was defending you and you turn on me? DoubleNaughtSpy is not my buddy, don't know him from adam! I was stating to him that he should not flame you like he did on a public forum. Whatever...

[wayneniamat]

Not even three weeks yet and I'm shooting the gun again! The distributor replaced the slide for me and I had the gun in hand on Friday. Put about 700 rounds through it shooting a steel target.

Top notch after-purchase care is what I say about this manufacturer.

The slide is new and different than the last. It has Smith and Wesson stamped on it while the old slide didn't. I don't know if it's my imagination but this slide seems ... weighty. The safety lever looks the same but swivels without as much effort. The two screws that hold the fake compensator have been replaced and are flush now. The finish seems more matte than the original slide.

I made mental note on the way to pick it up that I should get back the correct sight. I had the #2 (lowest sight) on the cracked slide. Sure enough in my eagerness to get the gun home I neglected to check and naturally the #2 is replaced with a #3.

I spent almost four hours on the range Friday. I love shooting this little pistol.

[RBK]

From what I have read the last few years, these guns are extremely problematic. I would avoid them if I were you.

[johndavid400]

wayne, If your original slide did not have S&W stamped on it, it must have been really old, like one of the first production models.

I bought one new nearly 2 years ago and it still had the S&W stamped on the slide.... as did the newer one that I got last December.

Good luck

[wayneniamat]

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4358262#post4358262

[mete]

The "odd scattered pitting" is probably porosity from gas bubbles one of a number of possible defects in castings .The number size and location determine how serious it is. I haven't examined a P22 but some of the comments about gun constuction are amusing. Back in 'the old days' kids would sometimes make guns .A 'zip gun' would have a block of wood for the handle ,automobile antenna for the barrel[22 rimfire] nail for the firing pin and rubber band to fire the gun !! ....Gun makers make guns that they can market. Obviously many want low priced guns so they are made with things like zinc instead of steel.

[Tamara]

In the last two months, confining myself to only handguns, and (more specifically) only semiautomatic pistols, I have seen:
A Walther P22 with a cracked slide.
A Glock 32 with a cracked slide.
A SIG P-228 with a cracked breechblock.
A Springfield Loaded 1911 with a broken hammer strut.
A Kimber TLE II with a broken thumb safety.
A Glock 26 with a broken slide stop spring.
A Glock 19 with a broken trigger return spring.
A Browning Buckmark with a broken slide stop.

...and that's what I can remember off the top of my head. The longer I work in this field, the less shocked I am by any of this.

[Te Anau]

And just how many years is it going to take Kimber to fix their famous snapping safety ???

[BerettaCougar]

I've put over 6000 rounds through my p22 with very little failures.. had a few at first but switched ammo and it runs smooth now, no cracks..

[Wildalaska]

Notice Tamara dodnt l;ist any Colts :D

WildahhhperfectionAlaska

[silversilvia]

can't believe you payed over $400 for a P22. i got a new one for $260 :)

isn't $400 more than the retail? well anyways mine jams on the cheaper bullets, 550 for 8 buck type. it doesn't really jam to the point where i have to strip it but ever once in a while i would have to push the slide forward a bit to chamber it properly. I have been noticing some wear on the under side of the slide, i filed all the metal shavings down and the gun seems to feed more smoothly. I only have about 2000 rounds through mine so i hope it doesn't crack like yours, however knowing that they will back up their guns is a good thing

[Tamara]

Notice Tamara dodnt l;ist any Colts:D

WildahhhperfectionAlaska

Tamgiveitanotherweekara

(We won't count the poorly buffed stainless Colt GSP whose recoil spring plunger was badly off-center in the front of the slide... :D )

[Wildalaska]

(We won't count the poorly buffed stainless Colt GSP whose recoil spring plunger was badly off-center in the front of the slide... )

Yer buyin em in the wrong place...all Colts that leave my hands are perfect :)

WildandusuallycheapertooAlaska

[Tamara]

I'm buyin' 'em from several different places, some of which are probably the same ones you are. :confused:


Tambutiforgotwe'reshillin'ara ;)

[azrael]

Ahh ya mean that people are still buying Colts?! :confused:

Gotta start carrying a OWb design for the Colts now... :D



Azblatantshillin'rael

[johndavid400]

Someone paid $400 for a P22???????????????? WHAT?

I got mine NIB for $229 with the green frame (they also had black, but I already had a black P22).

I can't imagine anyone paying $400 for that little gun. You could have gotten a Sig Trailside for that much.

[Wildalaska]

I'm buyin' 'em from several different places, some of which are probably the same ones you are.

I only get em from one place...so stick to the ones right from Colt, they havent been fondled by all the middlemen :)

WildnotshillinjustryintohelpabudoutsharethewealthIsayAlaska

[mfree]

I'll even admit that my CZ75B was bending the slide stop pin due to a drastically weak recoil spring, and I'm a CZ nut of high caliber...

Not pointing fingers, but someone needs to calm down a bit before they have a stroke. The P22 is a toy, albeit an expensive one. Mine was iffy out of the box, I massaged it into shape, and it has probably ten or twelve 550-packs through it and now the disconnector is worn out and dropping the hammer to half-cock on double action fire.

Did I expect a defense weapon? Hell no. Do I think I got my $230 worth? Absolutely. And I dissapointed that my gun is malfunctioning? Of course. Am I being a rabid jac...err, am I being excitedly vocal about it and causing general friction and grief within the community I seek out for my gunny brain-tickles? Nope. In fact I'm looking forward to a little kitchen-table bubba style repair work just to see if I can do it properly. I break it, then oh well. I don't even consider it worthwhile to send it for the repair. If I want another P22 I'll buy another P22 or fix this one.

But what I don't have is unreasonable expectations.

[Handy]

Why does your "toy" cost as much as .22s reliable enough for military service?

[mfree]

Because it does. I don't know why Smith&Walther sets prices the way they do, except perhaps, oh, they're in business to make money?

[Handy]

No. No they sell it at that price because people like you will look at it, decide that it is made of substandard materials that constitute a "toy", and decide to buy it anyway at a price that exceeds the retail price of solid steel guns of sterling reputation.

Walther seems to know their market, just like PT Barnum did.

[mfree]

I had $230 worth of fun with it, perhaps more. Much more, actually.

What, pray tell, is your major malfunction? Not everything is built to be a "serious working pistol". You seem personally offended by this gun. I'll just have to recommend that you *gasp* don't buy one, lest it's zincalloy and plastic construction heckle you into an early grave. I can hear several of them calling your name and laughing, right now... demonic pistols of slide-failure doom, sirens, calling your name, calling you to easily held comfortable grips and very soft recoil, for boxes upon boxes of .22LR lotus blossom fun. Run! Plug your ears with some otherworld cartridges before the P22 thinny calls you to your doom!

At least it's not a Phoenix...

[Handy]

That's correct. A Phoenix is made of zinc and plastic, and costs less than $100.

My "major malfunction" is that people like you are killing the quality firearm market by agreeing to pay outrageous prices for low quality fabrication. Pretty soon that's the only kind of crap available to buy, but the prices will be as high as the nice guns they replaced.


How much longer is Ruger and Browning going to produce their excellent .22 pistols when the buying public is so happy to spend the same money guns built like Hotwheels with three times the profit margin.


The P22 would be a great $120 pistol. But at $230 on up is proving that US gun consumers don't know quality and value from a hole in the ground.

[mfree]

I see. So now I'm singlehandedly running market prices up on some very nice all-steel .22lr target/plinking pistols?

EDIT:
"How much longer is Ruger and Browning going to produce their excellent .22 pistols when the buying public is so happy to spend the same money guns built like Hotwheels with three times the profit margin."

How many decades ago did that little plastic Tec-a-like pistol that uses Ruger 10/22 magazines come out? Ooh, what about the Phoenix, it's been around for a while, hasn't it? And the ring of fire pistols, and...

C'mon, you and I both know that the little P22 is lightweight, comfortable, *and* fun, and people who shoot them are likely to either move up a caliber or mvoe across into one of the old metal standbys. It's got it's niche, therefore it demands a niche price. There's nothing out there that approaches the LIGHTNESS and comfort at that price mark that stays even partways reliable.

[Handy]

You have just described the beginning of a marketing drive that the P22 started, and Sig quickly followed with the Mosquito. Ruger will likely dump their more basic Mk2s in favor of a zinc slide on a cheapened P95 frame.

Sure the nice guns will be available, but with P22s ruining the market, you won't be able to buy a Ruger or Buckmark for less than $400 in a few years time.

Think I'm making this up? Look at what happened to the relative price of polymer framed guns to machined metal frames since 1987. $500 Glocks are bad enough, but at least some of the major components are steel.


No, you didn't personally do it. You had alot of help.

[chris in va]

Handy, I think S&W/Walther are able to sell it for that much simply because there's nothing else readily avaialable like it on the market. Your other choices are the old-school Ruger, the huge Buckmark or a revolver. Not to mention the barrel is already threaded for a suppressor.

This thing is just cool looking. Look at it this way, if Chrysler made a small, cheap version of the Viper and made it out of some inexpensive materials, people would be all over it regardless.

I tell you though, if Ruger made a mini version of their P series with a threaded barrel and decent quality, it would be first on my list.

[mfree]

This whole argument also assumes that the people who are looking for a .22 are trying to make a decision between a classic and a P22.

I say they aren't. People are generally either looking for plinkers or serious pistols. I've spent some time behind a counter y'know, and the people who tend to look at the P22 are trying to stay beneath a price limit that the rugers and buckmarks are already above. They'll happily look at a *used* classic though at the same price as a P22, and sometimes they like it, sometimes not, often it's TOO HEAVY or simply less comfortable.

People who come in looking for a serious .22 aren't in the least swayed towards the P22, they are the ones who leave with a new Mk III or Buckmark, or a Kimber/Kadet conversion.

I think you've judged the market wrongly, as there's more than enough room for both. To use the car analogies, the P22 is a Kia Spectra, while the Classics are Toyota Corollas. The kia's cheaper, capable of roughly the same performance of a base Corolla or a little less, but it's a whole different mindset of consumer. People expecting a Corolla don't get Spectras, people expecting Spectras don't usually get new Corollas (used, though...)

[Handy]

I don't know where you're getting you're pricing information. A Ruger MkII with fixed sights, or a 22/45 with a bull barrel are about $220 most places. They are CHEAPER than the typical P22 at all the shops I've seen.


You'll forgive me if I don't find a 22/45 with a 4" barrel overly "serious".

[Vic303]

Ya know, in our house there's 2 Mk1's, a Mk II 6" slabside w/red dot, and a P-22. The P22 is the most 'fun' to shoot...it's also easier to CLEAN! :eek:

[BerettaCougar]

Even if the slide breaks... a new one is CHEAP!

I picked up two extra slides for 60 dollars for the pair.

[Handy]

Of course the slides are cheap, they're zinc.

Tell me, how does a $30 slide and a plastic frame add up to a $230 pistol? :confused:

[mfree]

The frame's not plastic, it's a split steel insert inside a plastic "shell".

[Handy]

So?

Are you saying a bit of stamped metal is "value added", or complaining that they couldn't figure out how to make such a low power pistol frame out of all polymer, like Ruger did with a centerfire.

[Te Anau]

Usually,I wholeheartedly disagree with what Handy says,but here he is right.My Hi-Point has a zinc/aluminum slide but is priced accordingly.They don't price it to compete with a new XD or the like and I realize that.The P22 is being sold to people who don't realize what theyre buying and assume that because its a Walther--oooooooooohhhhhhhh!!!---that its made from first rate top quality materials.Its not.It should cost less than $150.00 on the high side.Ive seen them as high as $349.99!!! and thats criminal. :barf:

[mfree]

"Ive seen them as high as $349.99!!! and thats criminal. "

No, it's capitalistic.

No like? No buy. Caveat emptor. I liked, I bought. I shot it till it wore out. I feel I got my money's worth. 'Nuff said.

[clu]

I thought about buying one about a year ago to complement my Ruger MkII, I thought they looked cool, liked the operating system, and thought I heard the slides were made out of forged aluminum with a steel breech face insert (I would have at least expected this level of quality from Walther). I was shocked to learn a few months back that the slide is Zinc :eek: and at $250 for a basic model here in Maryland the P22 quickly fell off my radar. I do not buy "disposable" guns (read saturday night specials) and will probably opt for a Bersa (I think they are being marketed under the Firestorm label now) or pay the extra beans for a Beretta 87S (the non target model).

Depending on the sucess of the Mosquito other manufacturers will begin to offer scaled down poly/zinc versions of their full sized pistols, and unlike the original aluminum/polymer revolution (Glocks for $300 & HK USPs for $500 these beasts are starting at the standard retail prices of the all steel/aluminum competition.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14501

[BerettaCougar]

The Beretta is by far a finer selection.

But to those who chose not to buy a P22 because of the Zinc slide, are kind of jumping to conclusions that it will not hold up.

I personally have put several THOUSAND rounds through mine... My friend also put several thousand rounds through theirs... do we have super P22's? NO!!

Just treat it right... and it will treat you right.

It's a great pistol.

[cuate]

Sorry about your slide breakage. .22 Semi autos are a lot of fun when they are working right. Some will try the patience. As I remember there is an unloaded Stoeger Luger .22 under the foot of the bed. It was very accurate and felt great to shoot but it's crime was/is failure to chamber hollow points. That point caused my and its divorce.

There is a tiny mouse gun, a Baretta 21A in my pants pocket. (snakes and whatever) and an anvil heavy MKII that I love as well as my best rifle or shotgun where I can fine it when I go plink.

Point is, get your P22 fixed or purchase another kind of .22 and continue on with your shooting! Wish you luck.

[wayneniamat]

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=923422&postcount=68

[Peeweester40]

Warning! Slide breakage P22

Warning! Your pants will fall down if you don't zip and button them.

[JR47]

This has gone from a discussion of the failure of a slide on a P22, to a discussion of how anyone who buys less expensive firearms is poisoning the market. I'm guessing that this is a direct result of no more information.

This is Smith & Wesson's second venture into the zinc-alloy market. Both times, they attempted to manufacture a weapon using a Zinc-alloy slide that was the same size as the older, steel, slide. Nobody should do that. The amount of mass necessary for Zinc-alloy to approach steel in the same application is higher. That may explain why the new slide seems "weightier".

As to the price, it is business as usual. Go into a Cadillac dealership, buy an air filter that's the same as one used on a Chevrolet. The Cadillac price will be higher. Why? Because it's for a Cadillac. This also occurs regularly in the electronics industry, and even pharmaceuticals. Is it even remotely correct? NO!!

You're buying a Walther there, buddy. You'll pay Walther prices. For that amount of money, you should have a steel pistol.

Then again, why are we paying so much for Sig pistols, or HK? Both of them take full advantage of stampings and folded metal technology. Polymer is also cheaper to cast than metal. Yet, the pistol is priced much higher, based on the actual material costs, than many solid steel, forged frame, pistols.

"My "major malfunction" is that people like you are killing the quality firearm market by agreeing to pay outrageous prices for low quality fabrication. Pretty soon that's the only kind of crap available to buy, but the prices will be as high as the nice guns they replaced."

Following that logic, anyone who buys a Glock, Sig, or HK pistol is just as guilty as those who buy Walther P22s.

I believe that we are witnessing the inevitable progress in gunmaking. Material costs, labor, and legal costs are all going up. The only way to keep from paying more and more, is to find alternatives to the turn-of -the-twentieth-century-manufacturing processes, and materials. Zinc-alloy is one such attempt, while polymers is another. There will be more.:)

[Handy]

Following that logic, anyone who buys a Glock, Sig, or HK pistol is just as guilty as those who buy Walther P22s.


Correct. The Glock's popularity rose from its performance in light of its low price; about $250 in 1986. Pretty soon the "great gun for the money" just became the "great gun" as ridiculous and juvenile stories of its prowess grew. This allowed Glock to incrementally rise prices until it is now priced about the same as the Beretta 92FS that it undersold by $200 20 years ago.

Why? Idiots who actually believe polymer is stronger than steel, that firing underwater is difficult or that having one part do three things is less complex than having three parts.


So, yes, there is a certain amount of guilt shared by all those that get excited by an $800 USP Tac while turning their nose up at an $1100 P7 as "too expensive". But at least polymer offers a genuine weight savings over other frame materials, while all Zinc offers is cheapness and decreased ruggedness. Consumers actually got something usefull (if overpriced) from going to cheap polymer - all they got from Zamac is screwed.


Walther could offer a really nice P22 that was made with a steel slide, and still make a bigger profit than Ruger or Browning do on their all metal guns. But I guess the P22 is Walther's way of thanking consumers for ignoring one of the finest combat pistols ever - the P88. It was "too expensive", after all.

[wayneniamat]

When I determined I wanted a p22 I googled it but never came across anyone suggesting the slide was of made of anything other than steel. I found several other 'quirks' but nothing suggesting a weak slide.

The intent was to purchase an 'affordable' pistol I could shoot 'on a whim'. ie cheaply. So, .22cal but the pistol had to operate like a combat pistol because the ultimate goal is proficiency in self-defense, not 'target-shooting'. C'mon! ;)

There's not a whole lot of pistol choices for me in Canada with a 'restricted' weapon permit. I can't purchase a gun with a barrel length 4" or under. There goes all those neat little guns I see you guys writing about here. It's basically a Ruger - what's with the 'zip-gun' style cocking? or I could get one of those new-fangled beretta neos...things. Or a revolver. I recognize the revolver as the most intelligent choice for self-defense but ... not quite sexy enough.

I bought the gun partially because the Walther P22 operated and looked more like a 'real' gun. I WAS, at that time, not at this time, but at THAT time, also considering the P99 as my next centre-fire firearm purchase so the P22 picked up alot of points there too.

I don't regret buying the gun.

I absolutely LOVE being able to jump in my car on a whim and shoot for 2 hours for CAN$15 plus gas...and tire wear. I swear, I was at the club three times a week there when the P22 was operational. 500rnd, two hour sessions. I did NOT baby this pistol like what I see the situation is here and elsewhere for the majority of P22s. It seems the gun is typically part of a 'collection of guns' and might be seldom brutalized cause it's like a conversation piece. "It's soooo cute!" I get it all the time.

Maybe ALL pistol slides break when you shoot them? I don't know. I never shot a gun as much as this one.

If I had known the slide was not a traditional material I would not have purchased the gun so easily. I would have dug deeper. Like we're doing now.

[wayneniamat]

I almost feel guilty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look at these search results!

If a Canadian shopper searches Canadian web pages for 'walther p22' my little story pops up on the first or second page!

THIS...is the reason I documented everything from day one. We ARE making a difference just discussing these issues. The pen truly is mightier than the sword! The next guy like me looking to buy this gun will have more data to analyse than I did. My job is done and my conscience is clear cause I also spoke highly of the pistol, when it works.

Now I must be going. I've got to get to work plastering that web page with ads. I can almost taste my 'fifteen minutes of fame/notoriety'. :D

3rd result! http://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?v...t&tab=&ei=UTF-8

5th result! http://www.altavista.com/web/result...p22&kgs=1&kls=0

5th result! http://www.alltheweb.com/search?adv...5D=2006&hits=10

11th result! http://www.google.ca/search?q=walth...A&start=10&sa=N

[wayneniamat]

"Awwwww! No! No! No!!!!!!!!!!

-----

Just got back from the club. It's 1:35am.

Took my brother for the first time in 10 years. In convincing him I mentioned the gun won't be working for long so he might as well come now.

This is the third range visit since getting the gun back Feb.03.06. Each session, 500 round box of standard velocity jacketed .22.

Fired about 350 rounds tonight. Then the hammer cocked back and didn't fall. There's no tension to the hammer. Again.

This is crazy!

I'll post the UPS waybill to prove I'm not making this up. I've lost count of how many times this gun's broken now. Does this make the fourth time?"

[wayneniamat]

The 5" barrel version may have some isssues. At least mine does. Slide fractured again...

:eek:

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1552710&postcount=78

[wayneniamat]

...your discretion...

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1636471&postcount=145

[Te Anau]

The P22 should be pulled from the market---its garbage.

[yomama]

anyone want to buy mine?

[HisSoldier]

I'll say it again, and again times 20. If the buying public can't discriminate between well known gun making materials and cheap substitutes like plastic, aluminum and zinc then the marketplace will continue to demand guns made of garbage. People say a steel gun is too heavy, but tools that last often are heavier than cheap toy look alikes. We are a culture raised with plastic toys, and many of us can't tell the difference! Many of us have never asked the gun salesman if the frame is aluminum or steel. I can't count the number of times I've asked that very question! That black plastic frame looks just like that laser blaster in a popular cartoon, that's the thinking I think. The buying public just never grew up when it comes to quality gun materials. The more I hear about stuff like this the more I'm going to say these things again. People come back with stuff like "There's nothing wrong with (put crud material name here) guns, they've been made that way for (put number of years stupid people have bought crud material guns here) years! You are out of touch HisSoldier". Well, I'm in touch with what a good gun is made of, and I refuse to be quiet.

[Sevengunner]

Just to document another incident for the membership. My P22 slide cracked right behind the place where the front sight would be on a 3" barrel (mine's a 5"). I've had it 3+ years, but seldom shoot more than 200 rounds/month.

I'm FedEx'ing the thing back tomorrow. The person who answered the phone at Walther was a jerk and offered no information except the minimum. Maybe he was having PMS. We'll see how this all goes.

This is the gun's second return, the first was when the safety was "walking" down. That time the gun shop that sold it to me took care of the shipping and dealing with Walther.

The gun is fun to shoot and a great introductory weapon for newbies, so I'll keep it for the grand children. Nonetheless I'm thinking my next purchase will be a .22 wheel gun, so I can have my cheap thrills without the drama.

[B.N.Real]

I actually liked the P22 when I saw one in a local gun store.

But thanks to the internet and several instances of this slide cracking happening in different guns,I won't be buying one ever,

Not even used at a 'steal' price.

Darn shame too,the little gun has a great grip and balance too it.

And it's got a great look to it as well (if you like that kind of styling).

I'll spend my money on proven guns like the Ruger or the Buckmark.

[Shadi Khalil]

Sorry man, but when I read overly emotional and exagerated claims about what could happen and oh the horrrors of what could happen to bystanders, I am amazed.

That was not out of line, very true in fact. Research before you buy. Or better yet, if you have prior knowledge of a problem with a product, dont by it at all!

I have one, love it.

[wayneniamat]

Sevengunner, did you take photos? Original images give us credibility ... and a captive audience. ;)

I can't deny I haven't attempted to 'stir' emotion each time a fresh photo of another broken p22 emerges.

Posters usually end up submitting a dry, chronological type, 'incident report' and I use the opportunity to coax the emotion out whenever I can. So, yes, it gets a little cheezy, maybe a broken p22 slide NEVER actually went boomerang'N around the stalls killing everyone in the range but, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen! :p

It takes courage to post. The guys I look up to at the range, The grizzled, leather-necked, ole-timers that I respect so much, insult us. "Ah! Commie, girlie-man!!! my grandaddy's colt used to bite his thumb clean-off with each shot...but he'd just sew it on again and keep on 'plinkin'... <cough> "Aaarghhh! GUNS BREAK!"

Not on my watch, ole-timer! If it's weak it ain't gonna survive.

[tcraigalexander]

my slide broke and i sent it in per walther to get checked out fixed. they were going to charge me 90$ to fix it but apparently it went to the wrong person. i believe they might fix it free of charge.... i will post the details of what happens....

[tcraigalexander]

yeah, sevengunner... my safety has been 'walking' down since about the first 6mths i owned it. why not recall the thing and replace the slides with good metals. i have many issues with this gun but the breaking slide is the one that got me.

[wayneniamat]

Noticed a spike in web hits. See catastrophic failure reported here ... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=11&t=301203 ... the gentleman is leaning towards the ammunition as a cause for his failure. He's been directed to visit our forum so ... "welcome to the party pal!".


In an 'unrelated' incident, I've also been contacted by someone that has given me permission to post pics and story. In his own words ...

"I was out shooting with a buddy, we had put a 10 round magazine of thunderbolt .22 through the gun and fired 2 shots from the second when the slide stuck back.

I assumed it had jammed like before with the type "A" mags so I went to clear it. I didn't discover the cracks until after I fired it again. The gun jammed again so I took out my flashlight and took a better look.

The cracks were on both sides of the gun also on the front and back. It looked like the metal just separated, not like an explosion but a temperature crack or stress crack. I was shooting in 40 degree weather, the metal may have just jumped in temperature so fast it snapped.

Shocked the crap out of me, I had never heard of the problem until I looked it up and was referred to your site.

I'll be sending the gun in for a replacement slide and most likely trade or sell it for something more reliable.

Such a shame my buddy has the same gun, hope it doesn't happen to him.

Matthew B."

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pKRAfbYF1d9UJxPH2E36hiVfv_ZaVYsRphVsgmAxOsLGS_DmQrFsjvXwYpe0WQ5DXuNRWArDj0B6uQgAtl_Kl1Q/walther%20broken%20slide%201.jpg?download

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pI2-WXJTxtZ2XPvRq7jAeU-Z5M-1Gs5V_CsSFk7nq75r7wtfDjM5CIILygVkW7IB9bVI2pUybXlQTfMGJSMsh-Q/walther%20broken%20slide%203.jpg?download

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pGz8Y_q7owcumDOl22jzi4Kn7N51R03Hz7-ysd-PU3e_HpwEpT6FnsIjvvAQY7VE8TDWHt5oz2s3_XN-cxYTArQ/broken%20walther%20slide%202.jpg?download

[Keebler]

After nearly 5,000 rounds, the slide on my P22 crack clean through yesterday.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_2PtEQhOAZ1k/S6OsVYSBI2I/AAAAAAAABeA/k8DjdPoH7nY/s400/DSCN4809.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_2PtEQhOAZ1k/S6OsV7T7FWI/AAAAAAAABeE/shXNNeecVbQ/s400/DSCN4810.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_2PtEQhOAZ1k/S6OsWbV_CUI/AAAAAAAABeI/uK9k25h5cPo/s400/DSCN4811.JPG

It's been a great gun until this...