455 Webley, Auto/revolver?

[Big Bunny]

Harley, were there any British .455 Auto Webley pistols imported into USA to your knowledge ? They were a bit of a failure and very upright in the hand-grip area. I forget the civillian versions name, but it could have been "VULCAN".

We have an idea that the ammo was not interchangeable with the 455 revolver as it was far hotter.

Any news or views ? I would appreciate your brain on the matter.

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***Big Bunny***

[4V50 Gary]

Webley made a semi-auto revolver, the Webley Fosberry. It was made in .455 Webley and also .38 S&W Special. In developing the pistol, the prototype was built on a Colt Peacemaker. First shot was in the DA mode and thereafter, the upper portion of the frame would slide backwards, cocking the hammer and rotating the cylinder for the next shot. Somewhat anachronistic but British, you understand. Anyway, having demonstrated the feasibility of the concept, Webley proceeded to produce it in the two calibers mentioned above.

If you've got one, it's a keeper. They can go for as much as $2k. Perhaps the greatest recognition received by the Webley-Fosberry was that it was mentioned by Humphrey Bogart in The Maltese Falcon as the firearm used to kill his partner.

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[Al Thompson]

Gary - come on. Try "Zardof" with James Bond, er, Sean Connery....

[4V50 Gary]

As a genuine sicko who has a bayonet for his .455 Webley, I would swear that in Zardof it was an ordinary Webley revolver. By the way, we could use their Gun God who spews guns from his mouth. :)

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[James K]

Aside from the Webley-Fosberry Automatic revolver, Webley also made two models of automatic pistol in .455, the Mark I .455 Auto Pistol and the Mark I No. 2. They were basically the same, but the latter had adjustable sights and was cut for a stock. They were issued to the Royal Navy and the RAF. They are sometimes called the Model 1913.

The .455 auto cartridge was rimless and not the same as the .455 revolver cartridge. The .455 auto case was slightly longer than the .45 ACP, but the bullet was more rounded so the overall length is about the same.

Not only did Webley make a pistol in .455 auto, but Colt also made the Government Model (1911 configuration) in .455 auto for the British in the WWI period. (Not Lend-Lease-that would be in the next war.)

I think Webley did sell some of their autos in this country but most here were military and came from England in the first cleanup of their depots about 1957-1960.

The guns are an interesting design with the recoil spring being a V type spring inside the grip. Taking one down requires know how, or the gun can be damaged.

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

Thanks Jim for pointing out my error. Checked the book and learned that the cartridge is unique. The .455 Webley revolver case is .75" tall and the .455 Webley semi-auto revolver is .925 tall. Also mispelled Webley-Fosbery.

Another mistake of mine was reporting that the .38 caliber Webley-Fosbery was chambered for .38 S&W Special instead of the correct .38 ACP.

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[James K]

Hi, Gary,

Very good. Most people don't even know the W-F was chambered for the .38 ACP. It worked because the round is semi-rimmed so would extract OK. I think they used it because with the smaller diameter rim they could get 8 chambers into the cylinder. I have fired a W-F in .38 and also one in .455 (unfortunately did not own either). They really feel funny because the recoiling mass is so heavy and so far up. You can feel the whole thing move. With heavier loads, they would have been wrist breakers. The only thing similar I have run into is the Hi Point 9mm, which has something of the same feel but with much more recoil feel than the W-F.

To clarify a point. The Webley auto pistol used a rimless .455 cartridge. The .455 Webley-Fosbery used the regular .455 Webley revolver cartridge, the same as the service Mk VI. The W-F couldn't use a rimless cartridge because it loaded and extracted just like any break top Webley.

Jim

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited December 04, 1999).]

[Jim V]

As an aside, the Colts that were chambered in .455 Webley Auto were later rechambered in .45ACP for reissue. The serial numbers started with a "W".

The Webley semi-autos were imported for a while in .32 ACP. One of the US companies made their version of the pistol. H&R?

The .455 Webley autos were not well liked as they were very sensative to dirt and crud. Crawling thru the mud of No man's land during the Great War mucked up those Webelys
quickly. The British Tommy prefered the revolver or the Colt 1911, if he had a choice. It was the mud and stuff that convinced the British military to issue the big Webleys to the RAF and Navy. Less chance of getting them dirty that way.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"



[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited December 04, 1999).]

[Big Bunny]

Thanks a lot FL, superb research ! So the 455(many are slugged at just .45) did not interchange with the 45ACP though having the same bullet diameter.

I fully concurr Jim, my older uncle was issued a Webley Auto(RAF) and youngest a 455 revolver(S&W) -army. The S&W 455s were loved by the troops, the Webley 38 was not.

Their stopping power was amazing, one story of my uncle's was the toppling of a very brave and motivated german gentleman with a 8mmMG on top of a roof holding up the advance of elements of the 8th Army in a village in that country. His rather gung-ho batman(no, not Robin!)borrowed the uncles .455 S&W, edged forward and proceeded to shoot at the rooftop gunner from the nearest cover, which was 300 yds away(the reason he stayed on the roof for so long I suppose).
Fire Support was not needed as, to all the command group's amazements, the machine-gunner toppled off the roof to his death and the advance went forward as planned.
Everyone was so stunned they paced out the distance and despite my disbelief, it appears true.
I asked whether the wound was actually a .455 and not .303 and was told scornfully that in those days 'they knew the difference !'
A most unlucky man.

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***Big Bunny***

[James K]

Hi, Jim V.,

The .455 Colt Auto can't be rechambered to .45 ACP as the chamber is too long. It can be rebarrelled, though, very easily. FWIW, the guns are not the same except for the chamber as some writers say. The .455 magazine is larger and the magzine well is larger. The .455 magazine will not fit a standard .45ACP pistol, though the reverse will sort of work.

H&R bought the rights to produce the Webley small pistol designs in this country. They made guns in both .32ACP and .25ACP, but the design was actually different though the pistols looked like Webleys. The H&R pistols use coil springs for recoil springs, where the Webleys use a V spring in the grip.

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

The internal lockwork of the Webley revolver is very much like the Python.

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[James K]

Both the old type Colt (which includes the Python) and the Webley use variations of the Bled, Richoux and Warnant lock. Colt improved the system by incorporating a separate cylinder stop, actuated by the rebound lever. Clever, but a bear to work on. The S&W mechanism is far better and parts are more interchangeable.

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

Hi Jim,

Since we're into lockwork, I've seen a photo of the fabled German Korth (the "Mercedes" of revolvers) and from what I can tell, attribute the slick DA to a roller bearing on the sear: ala Cylinder & Slide Shop for the S&W. Otherwise, the Korth, like the Security Six or Anaconda, is just a S&W on the insides. Regards!

Gary

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[Jim V]

Jim Keenin, I accept the fact that the .455 Webley chambered Colt 1911's had to be rebarreled. But I can not find any difference between the mag well size on my rebarreled 1911 and any 1911 that was originally manufactured in .45ACP. In one of your posts, you stated that the case length of the .455 Webley auto round was longer than that of the .45ACP but the blunter bullet nose made the two rounds the same length. I don't see why, then, there had to be two different magazine sizes or mag well sizes. A small point to be sure, your knowledge of these thing is geater than mine.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

[James K]

The .455 Webley case is also a tiny bit bigger in diameter than the .45 ACP, hence the wider mag. If you have an original Colt .455 magazine (marked .455 Eley) it should be wider than the standard .45 ACP mag, and won't fit into a standard .45 pistol. Some .455 Colts (W serial number) that were rebarreled also had .45 ACP magazines put in them. They are sloppy and have some wiggle, but they usually work OK.

Jim

[James K]

WRONG AGAIN!

Not the first (or last) time. AFTER writing about the .455 Webley Auto cartridge, I decided to check. I said it is rimless; it is actually semi-rimmed. The case runs .475 (which is slightly bigger than the .45 ACP), but the rim runs .500 and it is the rim that prevents it from fitting a .45ACP magazine.

The Webley pistol has a groove around the chamber (except for the feed ramp) and the .455 Colt has a groove in the hood, like the one on the .38 Super guns, to accommodate the rims. The .455 Webley chambers do not have a sharp shoulder, indicating that the cartridge was designed to headspace on the rim, again like the .38 Super or the .32 ACP, although the case mouth is not crimped.

Jim