.460 Rowland

[Rob Pincus]

Hey, guess waht some people actually do all their homework before introducing a new calibre.

The .460 Rowland has been developed by Johnny rowland and Clark Custom Guns. The round has attempted to duplicate .44 mag performance out of a 1911, with controllability.
The conversion kit sells for $275 retail and includes copensated Barrel and a 24# spring. That's it... just make sure you have a dovetail front site... apparently many a post sight was blown off during testing.
complete autos are available (all makers from Clark (kimber, STI, Caspian, etc...)) as are revolvers.

the round will not chamber in a standard .45 barrel.

Best part:

Georgia Arms is already set to produce the ammo for the retail market, Starline is already proudcing the brass and dies are available for home reloading.. Note: this is not an exotic PIA Necked down cartridge for the home hobbyist reloader's comfort!


Stats:
185 Gr at 1550 FPS
200 Gr at 1450 FPS
230 Gr at 1340 FPS
185 Gr HP defense load @ 1350 FPS

[old biker]

Hello Rob. This sounds very similiar to the old .451 Detonics and .45 Super. What's the differance? Sell me!

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AFFA

[Rob Pincus]

Well, for one thing.. the .460 Rowland can't (unsafely) be chambered in just any .45. which is a big plus for the liability issues.
Next, reloading and finding ammo should be simpler than the .45 super. (which I have yet to see a box of in a store or at a gun show (SHOT aside).

Other than those two points, I don't know enough about the stats of the .45 super and/or the .451 detonics to really comment. Maybe someone can post the stats for those rounds and we can compare apples to apples.

I will, however, ask Johnny and the Clarks that question tommorrw, and tell you what they say.... since it is their job to sell everyone.

[Rob Pincus]

J.R. Says that the energy of the .460 is measurably higher than either of the other two offerings in equivalent weight bullets.

I am unfamiliar with the stats on the two calibres you mention, so the best I can do is tell you that I don't think John would lie to me.

[Rob Pincus]

According to the Data at Ace Custom (run, I understand, by the originator of the .45 Super), the .460 Rowland will provide an extra 140-150 FPS to the 230 gr and 185 gr bullets.

That means about an 11% increase in the 185 gr bullets and a 12% increase in the 230 gr bulets.

Also, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a round that will chamber in a gun which is not strong enough to support it. I realize that I own a 642 that should not be loaded with 38 +ps, but for some reason it bothers in the autopistol, where I might not conciously look at the headstamp of the rounds as I load them.

Don't get me wrong, I will be buying some .45 Super ammo for my HK the first time I see it somewhere, but I thik the .460 has been a very well-developed round as well.

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-Essayons

[old biker]

Thanks for the info, we did the .45super way back when Dean Grinnel wrote about it. Spent some serious time cutting .45 Win Mag cases. Identical velocitys. Still have some ammo on the shelf, lost interest because of the recoil. If ya comp one the prblem of recoil is solved but you introduce the new problem of a comp on a carry gun. I was at the indoor range last month with an old commander in .45 that's got all the bolt ons and a Wilson 3port bushing comp(gun show $10) We fired some of the old supers and had no muzzle climb, great accuracy, and a huge ball of flame from the comp. Gee whiz factor of 10, tactical factor? CRAP! Just realized that it was way more controlable than the 10mm! Gotta go to the range again to see how fast the supers were running in the short barrel..

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AFFA

[bald1]

Rob,

From the info you supplied (again my thanks), we're talking about beefed up 45ACP brass 1/16" overlength, yet when loaded measuring the same OAL to be able to use standard mags. Pressure is up an additional 15k psi over standard 45ACP fodder. Reminds me of the 9x21 bit which also used the same OAL and was a ruse to load a 9mm to major. No question that the 460 R will offer a quantum jump over the standard 45ACP. I noted your comment about blowing staked front sights off. Sounds like the old slabsides will take a pounding. Running it without a compensator, if memory serves from earlier e-mail exchanges, is not advised by Clark. No kidding <grin>! This has got to be a big smokepole.

The reason I like my 400 Cor-Bon over stuff like the 357 SIG is the lower pressures the round operates at.

I'll be *very* interested at hearing how you fare once you get some ammo to shoot.

-=[Bob]=-

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 02-11-99).]

[Rob Pincus]

Johnny's new round is mentioned on Page 36 of the latest G&A.

I am still waiting for my first loaded rounds to get here...

[cornered rat]

For all the attention that fast rounds get, how come no one would come out with a modern gun chambered for 7.62x25 Tokarev? Seens that it would be the ultimate for the fast & light crowd (88gr ball at 1500fps, bottlenecked round...would be pretty nice in a long-barreled revolver, too...same niche as 32 H&R Magnum, far less expensive ammo). Somebody would start loading HP rounds that actually open up as intended. Why not?

[Rob Pincus]

I bought a CZ-52 last year. It was my first gun bought, on the first day of, through the new Instant Check system here in TN.
Kinda Ironic that I bought a commie gun, eh? ;) (honestly, it was the cheapest hting I had any interest in....).

What pistols, if any, would be elligible for a drop in barrel conversion to 7.62 TOK ??

Would a 1911 set up for .38 Super work with a new barrel and a lighter spring?

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited February 25, 1999).]

[cornered rat]

How loud is the CZ52 vs. a 357 mag out of a 6" barrel? Also, how bad is the recoil vs. sm-th like a Glock 17?

[Rob Pincus]

The recoil out of the 52 is less than the G17 with NATO loads, but the muzzle flash and report are harsher.. I would'nt put them as harsh as a .357.. but most of my .357 stuff has been shot out of 4" or shorter barrels.

[Daniel Watters]

The Red Chinese converted several M1911s to the Tokarev round, but they also modified the pistol to accept Tokarev magazines.

My first issue would be whether the average Tokarev round would even fit in a standard 1911 magazine. The max. OAL of the .38 Super is around 1/10th of an inch shorter than the max OAL of the Tokarev or .30 Mauser.

Of course, if the Tokarev round fits in the magazine, you could just as easily convert a pistol to take the 9x25mm Mauser Export cartridge with a barrel swap. I've know of at least one pistolsmith who tried this with a 9x19mm CZ52 conversion.

[Rob Pincus]

I got some loaded rounds in yesterday. Some 185 "defensive" loads rated at 1350 and some 185's loaded up to 1550.

It is raining pretty steadily here, but I just had to shoot some rounds. I went out on he porch, threw some cans about 7-10 yards out.

I had one 1911 with some standard .45 and a couple .45 +Ps. Then I had my .460 converted 1911 and two mags, one of Defensive and one full out. I wanted to see how noticable the progression was.

The difference between the +P .45 and the defenseive load was less noticable than the difference between Blaser 230 grn .45 and 185gr Rem +P.
That said, the jump between the def. load and the full .460 Rowland was like the difference between a 38 spcl and a full out 357 Magnum. Even with the Comp the full .460 was a serious round. The comp does a great job of keeping the muzzle from rising and you feel the gun come straight back when you fire.

I am really looking forward to trying this round out at some hunting ranges, I may have a new caliber of choice for deer. Also, I may break out the chronometer to see how fast these HPs are really going.

The rounds would not chamber in a standard .45 acp barrel and they functioned flawlessly in the appropriate firearm.

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-Essayons

[Thoth]

Are you able to use good ole regular .45 acp in the converted 1911. I'm assuming not. Or that reliability would be compromised by the heavy duty recoil spring. If you can use both types that would be a real bonus! Thanks

[Rob Pincus]

Although I wasn't sure that the round wound chamber properly, I loaded two rounds in a mag, racked the slide a couple times and the they seemed to function okay.

I put the two rounds back in the mag and walked out onto the porch. I was going to fire a couple of roundsin to the ground, but I only got one. The round wasn't powerful enough to get the spent case back to the eject, so the front of the case jammed on the top of the barrel as the slide starting moving forward. My guess is that there might be a happy ground where a lighter spring (this one is 24#s!) and a heavier load (perhaps even a .45 +P) might make the gun suitable for dual caliber use in a pinch.

I will ask Johnny about it next time I talk to him.

[Rob Pincus]

Found out today that this round is very accurate. The full house 185s patterned a full mag all touching one another offhand about 1 inch from the point of aim, I was shooting at about 13-15 yards. Thr group was about 2.5 inches or so, C-to-C.
I'm not one for too much "pattern shooting".. but even my cynical "combat accuracy" mind was impressed. Remember, this is a drop in kit, not a tuned gun.

I did a little pin shooting and the pins reacted significantly more than they do with standard .45s and noticably more than with 10mm hot loads. These things are running a little heavier and 400+ FPS faster than my regular 10mm stuff! Add to that the fact that they have a larger surface area and you can see the potential for a serious hunting round.

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-Essayons

[Mossyrock]

Rob,

What kind of a muzzle velocity are they advertising for the 230 grain load? have you had a chance to shoot any of that load yet? Do you think a comp is neccesary with this beast? Kind of eliminates standard holster carry, doesn't it?

Mossyrock

[Rob Pincus]

Clark/Rowland will not sell the conversion kits without the threaded comp. The custom 1911s and 625s that they are building are all going to be comped or ported, according to them. I would hate to consider rapid fire without the comp. Right now, with hot 185s, the kick is real close to my Model 29 with hunting loads. You feel it in your wrist, the comp allows the kick to come straight back.

As for the 230 loads, I haven't shot any yet, but they are claiming mid-1300's (see original post in this thread).

[Thoth]

So this conversion only involves the barrel and recoil spring? or did I miss something? Curious about that because if I remember right, the 45 super conversion for 1911s also required a change in the firing pin and a few other springs. I considered the 45 super but I was just going to get a 625 to handle it instead of fooling around with mods for not a lot more performance. But this 460 Rowland sounds like another beast entirely. Also, how do i change my password???

[Rob Pincus]

Do a search on "passwords" because I think it has been addresed, otherwise post a qeustion in the "feedback" area and someone will help ou.. I'm not even sure if you can.


Back to the .460-

The kit is a barrel with Comp, Wolf 24# spring, and a Wolf Firing pin spring. To be honest, I haven't replaced the firing pin spring, butI'm sure I'll get around to it. I'm trying to decide exactly which 1911 I am going to use the kit on.. I'm still floundering around on that one.

I forgot to address the carry issue.. I use open bottom holsters for most of my 1911's. In fact, I like the Yaqui Slide about as much as any holster for on the belt carry. Those types of holsters will work fine with the comp on the gun, but I am not considering the .460 for daily carry. I put this in the real of "fun to shoot" and "great for offense". Kinda like a .44 magnum, I have 3 .44s, none of which I would carry for self-defense. When I say "offense," I mean hunting.

[brass shower]

Will Clark be coming out with conversions for non-1911 style pistols? I'd like to try this out in my Glock 21...

[old biker]

I'm still waiting for actual chrono reading please. How about best group size at 25yds? Did you get a special deal on the .460 conversion and ammo???? Just want to check for an unbiased opinion. BTW, clocked my .45 Supers out of a commander Sunday and got 230s at 1200 fps 10ft from muzzle.

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AFFA

[Rob Pincus]

I am biased, regardless of what I paid for anything, because I like the Clark's work and they are all friends, as is Johnny Rowland.

I haven't bothered to get out my chrono and I am not likely to take the time/effort to give you a 25 yard rested group. I'm not into those kinds of measurements.

I bought the kit at dealer cost, which is about what I pay for anything. I was sent the about 80 rounds of the ammo as samples, because I have been harrassing Georgia Arms trying to buy some. They have told me that it would be ready by the end of the month. I will probably break out the Chrony when I get their production ammo, as it will be a more meaningful measurement than taking them off of Johnny's handloads.



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-Essayons

[Daniel Watters]

Georgia Arms brought several bags of .460 Rowland ammo to the local gunshow this past week. The labels claimed 1400fps for the 185gr JHP. Retail was under $20 for 50 rounds.

Ironicly at the very same show, I found a 1976 vintage book which gives passing mention to a wildcat called the .45 J-Mag. A M1911 conversion from Jeffredo Gunsight Company, the .45 J-Mag cases were made by trimming .30-06 or .308 brass to 1.025". The quoted ballistics...a 185gr JHP at >1400fps!

As they say, there is truly nothing new under the sun. ;)

[Bullmoose]

According to the article in the Dec 97 Rifleman, shooting a few 45S loads in a standard 1911 45ACP will not cause a problem.
They say that several 100 would be and that by 1000 expect the slide to be cracked, etc..
I would be interested in the working pressure of the 460 Rowland, the 45S is around 26,500 psi for the standard, 28,500 for the +Ps. Other questions come to mind such as why the 45S uses a dual coil 30# spring and is reported to cycle ok with hardball 45 ammo? Why don't they replace more than the bbl, recoil and firing pin spring on the Rowland?
The 45S uses a buffered-head full-length guide rod, shortened and recontoured firing pin, extended ejector, and a square bottomed oversized firing pin stop. I would think that the 1911 frame would handle this set up just fine. I am not too sure about the Rowland if it is maybe loaded to nearer 40,000 psi like the 10mm. There is more bolt thrust as the caliber gets bigger, putting more pressure on everything. It sounds like the 460 may be overkill unless it is your back woods weapon in big bear county, then it may not even be enough. Brass for the 45S is available from Starline and loaded ammo from Triton which has a 2 different style bullets, one a propriatory one that breaks into 3 pieces after some penetration and makes 3 wound channels. I posted a request for info on hot 1911 loadings stating that I was leaning toward the 9x23,10mm and the 45S. I still think that is the 'best' ways for me to go with my new projects. Ace Pistols and Robar have conversion for the 45S which were priced at $179.50 in the 97 article (no muzzle break and no bbl). They also stated that the stock H&K USP handled the 45S w/o 'adverse effects'. Just keep having fun. Jim

[This message has been edited by JImDee (edited May 18, 1999).]

[Exiled And Addicted]

Very interesting. If the COL is the same as 45acp/S, and the brass is (longer and) thicker than acp, then there is even less case capacity than acp or 45S with same length bullets. So, I don't see how those vels can be achieved (way more than even 45S) without blowing up the gun, because not only do you have a bigger explosion with more volume and strength of powder (hence the vels), but the decreased case volume would itself compound the increased pressure, would it not? Did someone say the Rowland runs at 10mm-type pressures (37500 +-)?

And if there is nothing new under the sun, why don't these unusual cartridges ever "stick" with the shooting public? I mean, even a marginally successful round will have brass produced for 50 years by SOMEONE. Does the answer lie simply in metallurgy? Is this the first time in history a 45S or 460R can be offered in a standard-sized pistol (non-Desert Eagle)?

[Rob Pincus]

E&A,

I don't think I can answer your questions satisfactorily. I have no idea if the 460R is simply a rehash of an old cartridge.

I can tell you that I have never shot anything like it out of a standard sized pistol.

Generally, I am not into "exotic" rounds. My wife bought me a .400 CB barrel on the (bad) advice of a friend for Christmas, other than that and the CZ-52 I bought 'cuz it was cheap on the first day of the TN "instant" check, I don't have any "non-standard" pistol calibers. I wouldn't have given .460R a chance, except that the Clarks were involved in it and I was in a mood to spend money at the SHOT show. I'm glad I looked into it, and it will be a great hunting round.. as for the politics and the metallurgy of where the round came from. I dont know, and I'm not sure it matters.

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-Essayons

[Daniel Watters]

I was poking through the 1986 _American Handgunner Annual_ for some info on a friend's recent purchase...lo and behold, I stumbled across a half page ad for the Jeffredo Gunsight Company. It seems that 10 years after my earliest reference, the J-Mag family had grown from the original .45 J-Mag to include .41, 9mm, .308, .257, and 5.56mm bottle-necked offspring. (Some of those wildcats sound strangely familiar don't they?)

From the picture and text, it is pretty clear that they were making their own heavy profile slide with an integral scope mount and offered barrel lengths from 5" to 14". They could even mount a horizontal foregrip to the front of the frame dust cover.

Will we remember the .460 Rowland a decade from now? In the gun world, there is truly nothing new under the sun. ;)

[snoman]

Rob,
what is the case length compared to the 10mm?? The reason I ask is that the 10mm is the minimum case length for an auto that is legal for deer in Minnesota...

------------------
---snoman---

[Daniel Watters]

The .460 Rowland cases should be pretty close to 1" from the loaded rounds I have seen at gun shows. If worse comes to worst, ask the folks who produce the loaded ammo: Georgia Arms (www.georgia-arms.com (http://www.georgia-arms.com)).



[This message has been edited by Daniel Watters (edited June 26, 1999).]

[Rob Pincus]

The case length is just a tad bit shorter than the 10mm Auto.

[Futo Inu]

You know what strikes me about the .460 Rowland come to think of it?

We already have this round! It's called the .45 Win Mag! So why, why, why? I know, they're a little different, but what niche does the Rowland fill that the .45 Win Mag didn't already? And these days a .45 Win Mag will fit into a Rowland-sized gun (AMT Automag IV). At least .45 Super filled the niche of being able to use pre-ban hi-caps.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 02, 1999).]

[Rob Pincus]

You hit the nail on the head, the size of the gun. Unless you want to guy buy an AMT, you can't have the .45 win mag in a standard size gun.

Furthermore, the AMT cost a bit more than the simple conversion kit for .460 Rowland.

The difference is the .44 mag ballistics in existing 1911 size guns.

[Futo Inu]

Rob, I guess I mis-spoke. Apparently the same mags CAN be used for the Rowland? And I guess the AMT is still a hoss compared to a 1911 even with an extended comp? In that case, I like the Rowland a lot. :)

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 02, 1999).]

[KilgorII]

I was wandering around through old threads and came across this one. I've been trying to decide on a 10mm, .40 super, .45 super, or .460 Rowland.

Are you still shooting the .460 Rowland. How is your gun holding up? Have you taken game with it? In other words a year later would you recommend it?

[Clark]

I have been shooting a 20 ounce $180 new Patriot. It had great case support so I bought it to work up to 460 Rowland loads in a standard length 45acp case. I used Federal brass. I made a 42 pound triple spring home made guider rod assembly. The recoil is painful. I put sections of bike inner tube on the handle. That helped.

I have blown up 7 guns, but the Patriot has lasted longer than my arm.

[Mulio Rex]

..Anybody want to comment on Clark's above message?
I really hope he is trolling and not actually doing this stuff.

------------------
Big Guns again
No speakee well
But plain.
--H.C

[George Hill]

A PATRIOT?

:rolleyes:

[Robert the41MagFan]

Seven blown up guns? Think that he needs a change of hobbies or is smelling too many lead fumes.

Robert

[KilgorII]

Read his posts about blowing guns up in the reloading section. I thought he was a nut at first too, but there is a method to his madness.

So uh about that .460 Rowland... Are you out there Rob?

[Clark]

Mulio,
I am really doing this stuff.
One guy in a gun store tried to pull back the slide and said, "If you can chamber that, you don't need a gun!" The 42 pounds is a challange to the grip. I hold the gun in my left and pull on the slide with my right.

I know allot of guys that worked thier way up to 45Super. I just noticed that the Patriot had such good chamber support that it would make it to 460 Rowland.

1) 45 acp 185 gr 1100 fps 10.2 gr AA#5 18,000 psi
2) 45 acp +P 1200 fps 10.8 gr AA#5 21,700 psi
3) 45 Super 1312 fps 12.4 gr AA#5 28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland 1500 fps 14.5 gr AA#5 38,800 cup
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm#kit
http://user.pa.net/~terdon/index.htm
http://user.pa.net/~terdon/sspage2.htm
http://www.eGroups.com/message/RepublicArmsPatriot45/255?&start=247

[Rob Pincus]

Kil,

To be honest, I didn't even get to take the .460 out into the field last fall. My hunting time was seriously reduced last year, so I have no practical field experience with the .460.

I have shot about 250-300 rounds total, so that's no real endurance test, but the gun seems to be functioning just fine.

I still think the round wil perform very well in the field. I wouldn't recomend it as an "all-around" calibre though.... The ammo is hard to find and expensive and the recoil is stiff. If you are looking for a round to use for hunting, I think you'd be happy.

[D Crockett]

Gentlemen,

The 460 Rowland will chamber and shoot regular 45 acp rounds, which is part of what makes it so nice.
Clark will also take a later model revolver in 45 and rechamber it to 460 Rowland for aroung $100 (last time I talked to them).
If your frame is up to it, I think this is and excellent way to get magnum performance in a 45.

Dave

--------------------------------------------------------------
"It is truly time to take a stand for your rights, or to sit down in subjection"

[Clark]

I talked to the man at Starline, where 460 Rowland brass is made, and he said that the 45 Super brass is the same design, just a hair shorter. He said that the really high pressures of 460 Rowland and 45 Super were for good chamber support guns. He said the +P brass acurally has a thicker web and is for guns with poor chamber support.

Clark Guns will not sell you a 460 Rowland pistol or converstion without a reoil compensator. Even with the heavy slide, heavy spring, and recoil compensator you are going to get slide slam.

My 42 pound spring set cuts out the slide slam at 10.3 gr AA#5, but at 14.4 gr [460 load], there is plenty of slide slam [but not enough for me to flinch].

[Coelho]

For those interested, Triton is now offering three loadings of .460 Rowland. A 165 grain Quik-Shok, 230 grain Quik-Shok and 230 grain Hi-Vel. You can check out the specs at www.triton-ammo.com (http://www.triton-ammo.com)

[e'ville]

I have been using the 45 Rowland for about 8 months through my 625. It is very easy to reload, no harder than the ACP. In the 625 using hot loads it feels like a .44 mag in the same gun (duh!). In my 625 with a 3" barrel it bucks like hell. With a 5" barrel it's still not pleasant but it's very manageable. Milder loads are milder and fun to shoot. The 165 grain Triton exits at about 1700 fps. The recoil makes it no more practical for defense than a .44 but it is a hoot.

------------------
Mark
NRA member

[KilgorII]

Coelho,

I cannot find any listings for .460 Rowland on Triton's website. Where is it at? Also, does anyone know of a website where I can read up on this cartridge? Also does anyone know if anyone makes a .460 Rowland barrel for the Glock 21?

[Schmit]

What you need to do is go to Triton's page and click on "Press Release". Under that there is a link for a "July 2000" release on the .460.



[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited July 23, 2000).]

[KilgorII]

Thanks Schmidt. It says a Glock conversion barrel will be available shortlt so that answers my question. I suppose I'll just get a G21 .45acp and wait on the conversion. I was considering a .40 super conversion or the Glock 20 10mm, but the .460 Rowland has them all beat with 230 grain bullets at 1350 fps. My purposes are for the WOW factor and for hunting. Thanks all.

[Mal H]

We've reached the 100K + point on this thread. I think it may also hold the record for longevity of an interesting topic. Anyone is welcome to start part 2...