I will never own another Taurus firearm. I could have ended up another statistic!

[SkySlash]

I know I'm new here, but I am posting here upon the reccomendation of a friend in another bulletin board here: http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=34709834&m=9290922803

I own a Taurus PT 111 .9mm Semi-Automatic Pistol. The gun was purchased new about a month ago, and has only had about 500 rounds fired through it in that time. Since the first shot, I have been unable to get this gun to group shots regardless of the range of the target. It's Double Action Only and has a really long trigger pull and I had just assumed that was a contributing factor. Then I tried shooting at close range using a sandbag, still no good. The gun won't group shots, now I know why. I was at the range yesterday and after about 100 rounds, the firearm experienced complete structural failure. I noticed the failure soon enough to avoid an accident, but had I not, it is extremely likely that upon being fired a few more times, the gun would have severely injured or killed an innocent bystander or myself.

In this image, you can see that the front rivet has come out, and the rear rivet is loose. These rivets bolt the slide mechanism to the frame of the gun and they are made of the same injection molded plastic as the frame. There are three rivets on each side of the gun, and you can see where the rivet has come out in the front due to the open hole it should be in. From this angle you can also see that the rear rivet is slightly extracted.
http://members.home.net/skyslash/img2.jpg


In this second image of the right side of the frame, you can see that all three rivets have seperated and imploded from the frame. I felt a stinging when I fired the gun and assumed a shell had been ejected strangely so I ignored it. When I felt the sting again, I closely examined the gun and noticed these open rivet holes. Upon field stripping the gun, I noticed that these rivets were holding the slide mechanism to the frame and immediately ceased firing the gun.
http://members.home.net/skyslash/img1.jpg


This image is of the actual rivets that seperated from the gun. I spent some time looking around the floor of the range and managed to find 3 out of 4 of these. If you look closely at the tips of the rivets, you will notice that they are shorn completely across in a jagged manner. It appears that the rivets cracked as the weapon was being fired, and then imploded out of the frame of the gun due to pressure during operation.
http://members.home.net/skyslash/img3.jpg


I don't even know what to say. At first I was just stunned at what could have happened, and then I got outraged that such a thing could happen. This gun comes with a hundred safety warnings on proper use and yet it comes apart when handled properly. I am infuriated, and I have lost all faith in Taurus. I just can't trust a company that could manufacture and sell a product like this. I keep thinking maybe I just got a lemon, but a firearm should never have that possibility. This thing is supposed to be combat reliable. Does that include killing the user?

Taurus has an unconditional lifetime repair/replacement warranty on all of their guns, but even if this gun is replaced with a new one, the trust is gone. I'm even more angry because I have invested over $500.00 on the gun and acessories for it, and there is no chance I can get that amount back out of it. How can I trust a gun manufacturer that sold me a bomb disguised as a pistol?

I'm not even sure how to proceed. I've taken these photos, gotten the address to send the gun to Taurus for evaluation, and I plan on writing a letter but I'm not even sure what to say. How do you politely explain something like this to someone you'd rather throttle with a large Louisville Slugger?

-SS http://www.force3d.com/ubb/icons/icon8.gif

[Erich]

Welcome to TFL!

First, it looks like you haven't contacted Taurus yet. You should give them a chance to make it right. If that means buying back the gun and your accessories . . . well, it might be good business for them to do so.

Second, you bought it new a month ago . . . what did they say when you took it back to the store?

Good luck with it.

[Brasso]

Some people like Taurus. Personally, I never saw anything about them that inspired confidence. They have terrible quality control and aren't put together very well. Cheap engineering. I do own and carry a model 85UL as a backup, but do not shoot it for fear of breaking it. I trust it enough to make 5 shots and it is very light and corrosion proof. I wouldn't own a Taurus of any flavor for primary use.

[SkySlash]

I bought the gun at a gun show and I have not received a response from the dealer, or from Taurus just yet. I sent Taurus an email with a link to the thread in my original post.

Regardless of Taurus's stance, my opinion remains. A Taurus firearm dangerously failed on me and that is difficult if not impossible for me to get past. I purchased this weapon specifically for concealed carry. It failed in a non-combat situation, and given that fact; how could I possibly trust my life to another gun from Taurus?

-SS

[maxinquaye]

Glock.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All,

I have been preaching about the lack of quality control at Taurus on this forum for quite some
time now; some folk's listen, and lot's of other's
don't? I'm glad you decided to share your experience's with Tauri firearms here with member's of the TFL family; and certainly glad no one was
injured with that "hunk of junk". I would never,
ever trust my life, or the life of a loved one to
the Tauri line; and that's the final answer.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.

[SkySlash]

I strongly suggest sending a link to this thread to any Taurus owner that you know.

If anyone wishes to contact me personally to discuss this defect, my email is [email protected]

-SS

[Kentucky Rifle]

SS,
Sorry you got a bad one. So did my father in law. We both went to the gun shop to purchase Glocks, I got a G27. However, he thought that the PT111 looked great (it does) and he could save a couple of hundred bucks. He bought a lot of misery for that $200.00. I honestly believe that Taurus automatics are getting better. And Brasso, I wouldn't worry about the light weight of your back-up 85UL. I've got friends who carry the 85UL's as back-ups and have put hundreds of rounds through them for practice at the range with no problems at all. Not even a loose screw! My wife has a Total Titanium 85 that is very light and is as tight as the day she took it out of the box. She's practiced a lot. I just purchased a new Taurus 731UL yesterday (.32 H&R mag) and I expect it to last a long time. (At least, I hope that's the case!)

Kentucky Rifle

[Gunhead]

I don't want to post horror stories on Taurus (because they made some great .38/.357 revolvers in the past), but their quality control is [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]ty!

- We received a brand new Taurus Raging Bull M454 for tests. The action was extremely dangerous, if you cocked the hammer to SA position the gun went off sometimes without touching the trigger!!! It was a very unpleasant and frightening experience for some guys with the full powered .454 Casull. A newbie shooter could blow his leg off with a gun like this.

- Our range master knows a guy who had a PT92 modell. The gun (only 8 months old) blew up with factory ammo, causing major damage to the hand and face. The police investigation showed the responsibility of the manufacturer, the gun was completely faulty. Poor guy never recovered fully from his injuries, lost his job, now he is trying to get money from Taurus. :(

[dairycreek]

I'm one of those who will never buy another Taurus. Over the last decade I have owned six Taurus revolvers (never owned an auto) that I purchased NIB. Three were fine. They were reliable and I never had a problem with them. Three had serious problems but, good to their warranty, Taurus repaired each of them until they performed to my satisfaction. Remember these were NIB revolvers. Because of my experience I have remained leery of Taurus and have decided that I will not purchase any more.

[7th Fleet]

Welcome to TFL and I agree with you, I had bad experiences with the Tarurus brand back in the 80s and I have not had any use for them since. Check out the Glock, you will like them they are very reliable and rugged guns.


7th

[JohnK]

Send your letter and copies - not originals - of the photos you have to Taurus before sending the gun to see how they want to procede. I would also take more photos with a good quality camera, you can't have to much evidence. You will want to keep your photos and copies of your letter just in case they get lost in the process, either by someone at Taurus or just in the mail.

"Our range master knows a guy who..." No offense Gunhead but a lot of horror stories about many manufacturers of firearms and other pieces of machinery start out like this. Few are personal experiences like Skyslash has had. Every manufacturer can have a lemon get through, but based on anecdotal evidence Taurus seems to have more than their fair share. They do appear willing to fix problems when they come up - small comfort if a defense pistol fails at the wrong time, I know.

My PT92 has had in excess of 5,000 rounds through it, many of them +p handloads, without a problem and no more sign of wear than it had after the initial couple hundred rounds. My father has a PT99 that has had well over 1,000 rounds without a hitch. I have no reservations about trusting my life to my Taurus and would feel confident in any other PT92 series after a few hundred rounds of breaking in.

It seems most of the problems people have with Taurus pistols are with the ones they designed, PT111 for example, and not the ones built on Beretta equipment, aka the PT 92/99/100/101 series. I don't particularly care for the Glocks, but if you really want a polymer frame gun I would follow the suggestions of others here and take a look at a Glock. Of course there are many many threads about Glock KaBooms that could be pointed at to show their failings as well.

Do what you started to do with the Taurus and fire any handgun you plan on using for defense several hundred times before trusting it, you never know when you'll get a lemon.

[AR-10]

Sorry about your bad luck. Don't care for their semi-autos, but I like their wheelguns. I'll buy them again.

I don't want to trivialize your situation or make excuses for Taurus, but if I avoided a brand every time someone posted a catastrophic failure I would be gunless.

If you are posting the facts regarding the age and condition of the gun and you were using factory loads that were not defective, then obviously there is a design flaw with this model that Taurus would be interested in knowing about.

Good luck in your future gun related endeavors.

[Cavè Canem]

Sorry to hear that. Im glad that no one got hurt.

I have a Taurus PT-92 with over 2000 rounds through it with no problems. I dont shoot it that much anymore b/c I like my Glocks better but it has never failed me. Even when a friend gave me bad reloads.

I personally would like to know what the outcome is if possible.

Good luck.

[Tecolote]

I'm really glad you're OK.

I'm a fan of the early import Taurus PT92s. Never tried one that wasn't absolutely reliable, accurate and durable. Their newest offerings are hit or miss. I'm going to get flamed for this, but for polymer I'd stick with the major players like Glock and HK. Polymer frames require massive investments in RD and stringent QC to make them function properly and to make them last. I just don't think Taurus has the kind of necessary resources to maintain top QC with its polymer line.

[SkySlash]

I appreciate all the advice. I still haven't heard from Taurus but I'm going to give them at least two weeks to get back to me before I get annoyed.

I will not ship them the firearm until I have spoken to someone in their shop though. I don't want this firearm swept under the rug.

-SS

[SkySlash]

What do you guys think a fair resolution would be to this?

I will NEVER fire another Taurus manufactured firearm. NEVER, the trust is zeroed out after this.

What do you think it would be fair to ask to Taurus to do about it?

-SS

[Tecolote]

Request a full refund from Taurus, including shipping. If they're smart they'll say yes. :( A refund is a lot cheaper than facing the possibility that you might initiate legal action against them for making a "faulty" product.

[T. Christy]

Hello all,

This is my first post on this forum although I have been reading posts here for a while. I thought I might add a little story here about Taurus quality.

I have worked in a gun store in Colorado for the last 11 years. About 3 years ago, I was showing two different gentlemen a selection of small revolvers. I had started by showing the first person a S&W model 60 when the other person came up to the counter and asked to see a Taurus. I was in the process of explaining to the first customer why I thought S&W was a good buy when the second began to loudly extol the virtues of the Taurus line of guns. He went as far as saying that anyone who spent more money on the "crap" made in the U.S. was just throwing it away.

Well, I sold this guy a Taurus and put him out on the range while I kept working with the first guy. The Taurus fan managed to get off exactly two rounds from his revolver when the trigger snapped off clean, rendering the gun inoperable. When he came out and showed me what had happened, he made a better sales pitch than I could have!

[George Hill]

Whoa. I'm a fan of Springfield and Taurus guns. First a thread about slides breaking in half on my beloved Stainless 1911s... and now this. :eek:

Please excuse me, but my world is caving in. I am going to go sit in a corner with my knees tucked up to my chin and rock back and forth quietly until everyone goes away.

[mrat]

There is not a gun made that has not had a catastrophic failure. Several posters have said get a glock. Well guess what, they have had catastrophic failures also.

[SkySlash]

I believe I was very to the point with my letter. I will be sending this (http://members.home.net/skyslash/letter.doc) letter to Taurus, Return Receipt requested with Delivery Confirmation in the morning. If you click that link, it is 92KB so be fore-warned its a big file.

If anyone can find the name of the President or CEO of Taurus I would be very appreciative of the information. I would like to send that letter directly to him.

If you are interested in this situation, please read that letter and provide feedback if you don't mind.

Thank You!

-SS

[IanS]

My sympathies. I hope it wasn't your primary defense pistol.

I try to stick to some basic rules when I purchase a firearm for defense.

a. Buy a particular model from a "major" manufacturer that has been widely accepted. For example, a firearm that is being used by US police/leo forces. US forces because we have more money for firearms comparatively and we typically have higher standards and information is readily available. By no means a guarantee, at least it has been put through some stringent use. I refuse to be the guinea pig.

b. Buy a firearm that has been around for at least 4-5 years regardless of make (HK, Sig, Glock, Kimber, Walther all of them). For example, I highly regard guns produced by Sigarms (a highly respected firm) but I still won't consider the P220ST until I see all bugs worked out. (Same goes with new autos, even ones that continue a famous name ie. Mustang, Maxima, Tahoe) I refuse to be the guines pig.

c. A firearm could one day save your life. Paying a little more gives you some peace of mind and your life has no sticker tag. Who care if its the boring typical choice. Go with what has worked. That's why I can't blame anyone going with a good 1911 or the BHP.

This is not to mean Taurus (or less famous brands) make shoddy weapons as a rule. Some of them are excellent but one needs to be more vigilant. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN THE OPEN MARKET.

And this is not to say one shouldn't acquire a gun that simply piques your interest. Just don't make it the first one you reach for in times of crisis.


P.S. and for the umpteenth time, The vast, VAST majority of Glock kB's occured with reloads. Something Glock specifically warns against.

[Hal]

SkySlash,
I spent a good number of years resolving customer complaints. Believe it or not, most companies view complaints as a positive thing UNLESS there is even the slightest hint of legal intervention. Once the legal hounds are called, then all communication is immediatly turned over to the legal department.

Using words like never buy another Taurus, investigating, research, fraud etc. are self defeating in an initial corresppondence. Why? Because foremost Taurus wants to sell their product. If you admit right up front you're never going to buy another one, to the point of leaveing the area where one is being fired, then they're going to dismiss you as a potential customer and treat you as a hostile. You're (as well as everyone else if there is some hidden defect in design) far better of to just present the facts of what happened and let Taurus take the next step. Informing them of the legal proceedings against Firestone is kind of pointless also. Trust me on this, any company with any public exposure is well aware of those things. In effect, you're talking down to them. Putting them on the immediate defensive is almost a 100% guarantee that you'll get a form letter from their legal department as a reply.
I bought this firearm upon the recommendation of reputable gun magazines, trusted gun enthusiasts, and most importantly based on the quality replacement/repair guarantee offered by Taurus. I am very disappointed in the quality of this gun IMNSHO, based on the few thousand complaints I've handled over the years, that's probably the best place to end the letter.

I don't want to come across a dissing your letter OK? I know it's hard to not express how,,,well,,PO'ed you are. I can't blame you there. I'd really recommend rewriting everything, and really try to put as positive a slant on it as you can, and play up to their reputation. Believe me, saying you're done with them is a one way ticket to the bottom of the reply pile. From the looks of things (really ugly ), you have a 100% legitimate complaint.

[craigz]

SkySlash,
I think your letter is a little too tough for a "first contact." I don't think that it's time to threaten them directly with legal action yet. Your explanation and documentation of the incident is excellent, but you don't say what it is that you want them to do. State exactly what you want from them, which is presumably a full refund of your purchase price, and express your hopes that the situation does not become adversarial, forcing you to exercise your considerable legal and political resources.

You should also involve the manufacturer of the ammo you were shooting in this correspondence, as Taurus will almost certainly try to blame them for the malfunction. Include the lot number of the ammo, and save whatever you have left for testing at a later time. Also, try to find out which distributor handled the gun and try to involve them as well. The higher up in the food chain you go, the better they'll listen.

By the way, the name of the President of Taurus is Carlos Murgel, and the Executive VP and COO is called Bob Morrison.

[denfoote]

SkySlash,
Gee Bub, sorry to hear about your gun!!! I'm sitting here as I type this with my PT145 at my side!!!! I would forget, at this point, about legal action. My experience with Taurus has been very positive over the years. Yeah, I've gotten a lemon here and there. My M605 .357MAG revolver comes to mind. The first time I took it to the range, the cylinder retaining pin came out and was lost!! I sent the gun back to Taurus. They promised to fix it and send it back to me in three weeks. 21 days later it arrived at my door. It has been perfect ever since!! Give Taurus a chance before you call out the legal attack dogs. As touching the trust issue, by all means, if you do not trust Taurus guns, then get something else. For a gun that is about the same size as the PT111, I would recommend the Glock 26!!! That is what I carried before my loving wife confiscated it for her own!!! I trust my Tauri, but I have never heard of this happening. I am indeed saddened that you have had so catastrophic an experience that you have lost confidance in a fine company that supports our freedoms... from Brazil!! But, so be it!!! Try the Glock. I think you will like it. I think I will take my G30 out of the safe now...;)

[Gusgus]

Skyslash,
First, I'm glad that you discovered the failure, and didn't get hurt, but your branding of an entire manufacturer's line over one failed firearm is disturbing.

I've heard of failures with almost every brand of firearm out there. Remember the exploding Glock .40s? Yet folks still buy and recommend them. Remember the several Navy Seals that took broken Beretta 92 slides to the face when firing their pistols? Yet the Beretta 92 is still carried by the military, and very popular on this board. Many have complained about cracks in their P-99 frames, yet I don't see a lot of Walther bashing. Or how about the NJ State Trooper that died in a gun battle, because he was left defenseless when the firing pin broke in his P7. Best not ever buy an H&K.

There are tens of thousands of Millennium pistols out there, yet this is the very first catastrophic failure I've heard of. I would conclude that your pistol was a "lemon", and is not reflective of the vast majority of Millenniums. If this was truly a design flaw, there would have been more failures by now.

One thing you never told us. What ammo have you been shooting through the pistol? Any +P? Any hand loads? Any hot & inconsistent Wolf? Any Aquila? You need to be honest here, as it could affect the safety of others.

Don't get me wrong, as the warning is greatly appreciated. I always check frames and slides for cracks, lose or missing screws/pins, etc., before firing. This is just one more thing to check.

[SkySlash]

This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for, thank you!

I used several different name brands of factory loaded 115-124gr. ammunition. I don't reload ammunition, and I only fired the ammunition that I personally purchased through the gun. I used ammo by Federal, Winchester, and Speer.

-SS

[Gusgus]

SkySlash,
Thank you for the response, but we still need to know - Was any of the factory ammo shot through this pistol of +P pressure? This is extremely important. Thank you.

[SkySlash]

No, I did not use +P ammunition. The only high pressure ammunition fired through this gun was a total of 10 Winchester Personal Protection 147gr. FMJ hollowpoints .

Ammo didn't kill this gun, it has a design flaw and failed as a result of that flaw.

-SS

[Hard_Case]

I would also echo the earlier sentiments regarding your letter. It is well worded, concise, not overly descriptive yet not leaving out the details....however, it was lacking in a conclusive point, and I also think it was a bit too strong. While I wholeheartedly respect the danger of the situation (and am thankfull you noticed the failure in time!), and I agree completely with your decision to avoid Taurus in the future.....you overstepped yourself.

The conclusion of your letter lacks an objective. What do you want? What are you looking for from them? I understand you want to speak with a representative on the situation, but you should have made clear what would be a satisfactory resolution to the situation. Did you want a refund, did you want an investigation on their part? This leaves them with doubt as to what your motive is. Couple this with the threats of legal action, and it can be perceived that you are easily trying to make a buck off them, even though you are not. It comes down to the old saying of honey and vinegar. Your statements make the implication that it is a design flaw, when this may not be the case. You mention the issue of Ford/Firestone, and hurl threats of legal action. From the perspective of their CS department, have you given them any reason to accomodate your demands? Looking only at your letter from an objective perspective, how interested in working with the company toward a solution do you think you are?

Another question would be, do you mean what you say. If you are not willing to back up your claims, you may have lost the possibility of recompense from the company. Do you have the representation and funds to conduct research, open inquiries, subpoena company documents, and battle them over this issue? Do you have contact with enough owners of the specific model with similar issues to begin a class action suit? They may very well respond that they will refer this issue to their legal department, and all further communication will be with their lawyers. They could conceivably use your letter as evidence to how generally uncooperative, beligerant, and desirous of a legal battle you are. Is this what you want? I respect how upset you are, and how dangerous the situation could have become, but cordiality could very well have resolved this situation.

I do wish you the best of luck with this!

[Mr986]

Skyslash:
Sorry to hear about your quality problems; I experienced a cylinder clearance problem problem with a S/S .357 Tracker a few years back and traded it rather than get into the ship and reship dance.

Regarding a CCW weapon I would heartily recommend the G26; better trigger, very accurate, lots of accessories available and after 500 rounds I've not had one hickup. Keislers had these a month ago for $433+shipping. Once you buy a glock I think you'll understand why the enthusiasts feel the way they do about them.

[Blackhawk]

SkySlash,

What Taurus will need to know is what will make you content with this situation. Obviously, you're out the price of the pistol, ammo, and accessories, but you're also out the "value" of the hassle, etc. Since you aren't likely to want another Taurus and they can't replace yours with another make, Taurus is sort of stuck with refunding your money without their legal Beagles getting involved.

If it comes to that, YOUR lawyer will prefer that you not have libeled Taurus or made threats or accusations in any private or public forum such as TFL. Much as I hate to say it, I suggest that you consult with a reputable (!?) Personal Injury trial lawyer, not to represent you, just to sort out your options with you. Most lawyers don't charge for initial consultations, and you might just learn something you didn't know before!

[SkySlash]

In all seriousness, all I want is this:

1) A refund for the firearm and extra magazines I purchased.
2) An apology.
3) Reassurance that Taurus won't brush this under the rug.

I firmly believe that this gun will have a high failure rate due to being constructed with plastic rivets. As a result, I would like to see Taurus fix the defect.

-SS

[Tecolote]

Yes, your letter is too hostile for a first attempt. But don't be afraid to bring in legal action if you feel it's justified. I had a major problem with CompUSA, they refused to refund me money that they owed and they refused to honor a warranty. After getting the run around for six months I contact my state's AG's office of consumer protection, and did the same in CompUSA's home state. Two weeks after I did I got a call from CompUSA's legal department asking me what would it take for me to cancel my actions. I received a full refund seven days later and a call back from their legal department to verify I had gotten payment. If I had cowered in fear I never would've gotten my money back.

[Blackhawk]

SS,

Then I would edit the letter to Taurus to say after a recitation of the facts:

"In all seriousness, all I want is this:

1) A refund for the firearm and extra magazines I purchased.
2) An apology.
3) Reassurance that Taurus won't brush this under the rug.

I firmly believe that this gun will have a high failure rate due to being constructed with plastic rivets. As a result, I would like to see Taurus fix the defect. "

I would expect a rapid positive response! If not, well then....

[MRN]

Wow! Great letter.

I agree with the suggestions to tone down the letter if you want this solved quickly. Don't mention legal action. Diplomacy first. The most effective route is that of communicating with a friend who let you down. Tell them what they already think of themselves - recite their ads back to them - "high quality, reasonable price, innovative designs". Imagine you are doing an old friend a favor by showing them a problem and letting them fix their design/manufacture. They can do you, an old loyal friend, a favor by sending your money back. Although you are a little leery now, you hope to buy many many more of their guns in the future. (Yes, it's a lie, but you believed it and liked it when I said you wrote a great letter ;-)

For me, the goal would be to get $$ back so I could buy a Sig, not go on some comsumer advocacy crusade. Choose your battles.

Apology? What good does it do you?
(Heck, you were the one stupid enough to buy a Taurus. You should apologize for that. Exactly how dumb are you? - now notice your own reaction to this obviouly hostile accusation by some ill informed bozo - you don't want that response from them. Doesn't help you get your $$ back. ;-)

Reassurance of redesign? I'd cast this only in terms of knowing what the problem was, how it is rectified/prevented, and how it will boost your flagging confidence in Taurus products so you may join them again. They will write you off as another loonie if you think you know more about gun design than they do. They probably get 100's of letters from real loonies every day.

Good luck getting your $$$ back quickly. Let us know what happens.

M.

[SkySlash]

Ok, I toned the letter down considerably and removed all threats and harshness.

I received a phone call from the Taurus Customer Service Manager and I just faxed the letter to her.

We shall see what they do, they may yet salvage my opinion of them.

-SS

[SkySlash]

Taurus has vowed to make this right. They called me and apologized and promised to investigate this issue. Whether they do or not will remain to be seen, but they are meeting my expectations 100% and that speaks well of them IMHO.

They told me they will issue a refund for the firearm, including the cost of additional magazines and accessories for the weapon. They also intend to pay for the shipping cost of the gun, and arrange with FedEx to have it picked up.

All I have to do is fax them copies of the receipts and they will issue the refund check.

I am very impressed with their customer service, but I will remain wary of their products in the future.

-SS

[Tecolote]

I'm glad to hear of Taurus customer service. If only they would get QC up to the level of the early PT92s I'd get a Taurus in a minute. ;)

[Blackhawk]

SS,

So far, so good!

As for Taurus QC, they're now on notice that you bought a defective product, and that the design is probably defective due to the multiple failures of components.

They cannot afford to ignore what they "now know" so I think you can be assured that they WILL immediately take remedial steps. (My guess would be in design.)

To be fair, if machines didn't break, nobody would know what to fix. And pistols would weigh 6,000 pounds and be incapable of firing a projectile at any higher velocity than 3 fps. You've done us all a service, but I'm sorry you were exposed to the problem!

Please keep us informed about this.

[James K]

I agree that blasting them first off is not a good idea, though I too can understand how you feel. Threatening to sue is both needlessly irritating them and pointless. You really have no ground for legal action, other than recovering the cost of the pistol, because you suffered no damage.

If they refund your money, accept it. That or replacing the gun is all they are obligated to do. If they send you a new gun, sell it for what you can get for it and buy another brand.

Jim

[SkySlash]

FedEx picked up the gun on Taurus's dime this morning as promised. Taurus said they have already cut the check for the refund, and they will mail it to me once the firearm has been logged in to their vault.

I may be iffy about their products in the future, but they should really consider offering training to other companies on how to provide outstanding customer service and support.

I have never dealt with a more professional or courteous company and I have done hundred's of refund requests and RMA's in the past.

Once I receive their check, I plan to pen a letter thanking them for such excellent customer care.

-SS

[Blackhawk]

SS,

That would be a gratuitous courtesy on your part, but is there any indication that Taurus is going to keep you informed of any resolution of the design or defective parts that caused the failure you experienced?

After all, what would you say to a friend who just told you he bought a new PT-111? "Hope it doesn't blow up in your face like mine almost did." "Taurus customer support is great if the pins holding it together fall out while you're shooting." "I had one, but it came apart while shooting it." Nothing?

I'd love to be able to say, "I had one of those, found a design defect, got my money back, and now Taurus has fixed the problem with interference fit steel roll pins."

It sure seems that Taurus would be smart to fix the fundamental problem and keep you informed about what they do about it!

[eger precision]

I refuse to carry them, work on them, or reccomend them, no matter how much they spend on advertising with gun rags.

There is nothing they make that you would not be better served by buying the Smith,Glock,Beretta, or Ruger that these guys imitate.

it is good to hear that their is some decent customer service there, which I guess is a lot cheaper than a lawsuit.

But, once they have the gun----------------------?????

[Ben]

I've never been a fan of their plastic guns, but I think their metal (alloy, steel, etc,) guns are rather classy lookers. I'd like to eventually get a PT-940. I actually hear a LOT of good things about the PT-940 and the 9mm version as well. I'd also stick with standard-weight snubs or full-size revolvers. Get that thing looked at.

Ben

[SkySlash]

I'd love to be able to say, "I had one of those, found a design defect, got my money back, and now Taurus has fixed the problem with interference fit steel roll pins."

It sure seems that Taurus would be smart to fix the fundamental problem and keep you informed about what they do about it!

As would I, and Taurus has claimed that they will tell me they when they discover what caused the failure.

I will never reccomend one to anybody, and other than satisfaction with their customer service, I have no interest in their company or their products.

I am keeping all the photos of the gun and copies of all correspondence with Taurus. I plan to follow-up in a few weeks to find out what they have discovered, and if I EVER hear of anyone being injured by a similar defect I will supply them with copies of all of my information to aid them in any legal action.

-SS

[Blackhawk]

SS,

Excellent!

[mini14jac]

SS,

Glad you decided to be nice first.
I guess you are like me.
If I think I have been shafted, and the amount of money is more than $10, I get steamed pretty quick.

On the polymer pins, several gunmakers use them in polymer guns. They seem to work ok, though aluminum or steel would probably do better without much added weight.
I am sure it is a matter of getting the job done with the least expensive part.

Is it possible that your pins worked out part of the way before they broke?
I have a PT145, and one the pins works out when shooting.
If I had not noticed this, it would probably only have to come out may be 1/8 inch or less, then the frame could move, which would almost certainly shear the pin.
I'm hoping a new pin will stay in place, but if not, I'm not going to be a happy camper.

Let us know how it works out.
JP
><>

[GSB]

Just to add my impression of Taurus Quality Control: poor. A coworker bought a Taurus revolver that must have been out of tolerance. If you fire a few rounds through it, the expansion from the heat causes the cylinder to bind with the frame.

Never had that happen on any other revolver ('course, I'm talking about Troopers and Pythons).

[Songdog]

Been interesting watching this play out. SS, you have seen the most difficult interface of a manufacturer's QC culture: the interface with the customer. Taurus has handled it very well.

I wouldn't suggest that you buy another Taurus, if you don't trust them. But how many times have we experienced a critical malfunction in a car, tool, outboard motor, airplane, whatever. 100% reliability is not acheivable.

We all want to second guess the design, construction, materials, etc. Taurus wants to fix this, it seems, god bless 'em.

I also have to add: I did a calculation, this is not a flame, GSB. In order for a cylinder to expand just 0.001 inch, you have to raise the temperature to about 900 degrees F. Ouch! Maybe the revolver was binding up for some other reason???

[SkySlash]

True to their word, I got a check in the mail from Taurus today for the agreed amount.

-SS :D

[Blackhawk]

SS,

Good. At this point, what would it take for you to try another Taurus or recommend the company. IOW, how's your pulse beating regarding Taurus? Do you think they are going to "fix" the problem with their products that you encountered?

[SkySlash]

I'll probably never shoot another Taurus SA.

Revolver's yes, they are well made and excellent shooters, I just can't stomach the thought of shooting another SA though.

Can you imagine the feeling of suddenly having a bomb in your hand, seeing the timer go to zero, and breathing a sigh of relief when it duds out? Imagine how you'd feel about ever touching a bomb again...

-SS

[bountyh]

Gun Test magazine (the only one that doesn't accept advertising or free guns from gun makers) has tested a bunch of Taurus revolvers over the past few years and I would say at least half showed problems serious enough that I would not want to own the gun (trigger breaks, cylinder siezes, fails to ignite). Some people write in and say they love theirs, but the quality looks pretty weak.

[Blackhawk]

bountyh,

Whether Gun-Tests accepts advertising or not doesn't enhance the validity of the opinions it expresses, nor does other magazines running ads detract from theirs.

I suppose Gun-Tests is playing on the Consumer Reports model. That's fine, but there's a lot of difference between testing washing machines, cars, etc., and firearms. The former category concerns wasting goods. They will never be better than when they are new. A firearm, however, has to be broken in so it will only get better with use up to its "broken in" level of use.

Other factors are those most vexing of creatures -- human beings! Some shooters insist on using the hottest loads with the heaviest bullets. Others are content to use "middle-of-the-road" or even conservative ammo. Don't be surprised if the latter category shooters are happier than the former with identical firearms.

Guns do have a lot in common with cars of the '50s. A guaranteed way to get a "lemon" was to ignore the carmaker's break-in instructions. That typically involved using only non-detergent oil for the first 500 miles, not exceeding 50 MPH, not holding a constant speed, not pulling trailers, etc.

In a similar vein, my guess is that reviewers, owners, etc., of new guns would naturally be unhappy with them until they're carefully broken in.

Bottom line: The reports of long time shooters of a particular gun model are just plain more credible than those of paid reviewers who essentially get paid by the word.