[rocko]

I'm curious how there are preban mags for the SOCOM since it came out after the ban, and the US Govt (plus HK IIRC) has written letters stating that any "standard capacity" mags are either stolen US property, or post ban, both of which are illegal.

Last I checked, receiving stolen property is still a crime.

Not that I disapprove someone making a buck, but hell, putting the customer in jeapordy sounds uncool.

Now, the question we should be asking is, are these legal, non "grey market" mags, and if not, what are the consequences for *all of us* if this guy gets caught importing them? You really think the pro-gun movement needs a high profile case where someone is importing post ban mags as pre-ban?

Just my $.02

Kevin

HK USA has stated in the past that the 12 round preban USP mags are stolen government property, and that no preban USP .45 mags exist. They are basing this on the fact that the gun was not released to the civilian market until 1995 and the fact that they apparently did not import any 12 round preban mags. However, HK USA is not HK Oberndorf (who has never commented on the issue one way or the other), which actually manufactured the mags nor do preban mags need to be imported by the "official" US distributor (which is all HK USA basically is - a warehouse with perhaps a couple of smiths to do warranty repairs) of the manufacturer in order to be legal. Furthermore, even though the pistol was not released for sale in the US until 1995, don't you think that HK had been producing them long before? Below is some evidence, both more or less "hard" evidence and anecdotal that preban USP mags do indeed exist, despite what HK USA says:

-In Guns 1997 Combat Annual there is a 4 page artical written by Massad Ayoob with photos by Ichiro Nagata that clearly show a USP .45 with a date code of "KE" (1994)Serial No' 25-015. This photo can be found on page 95.

-In the "Handguns" Magazine September 1995 there is also an article by David W Arnold and photos by Lynne McCready that shows a USP 45 with a date of of "KE (1994) Serial Number' 25-012.

While HK is tight lipped about any codes (if any) stamped on their magazines, the date codes on their firearms are public knowledge. Here we have evidence of two pistols that were manufactured in 1994. If production pistols existed then, certainly the mags did as well. Likely they ran off a ton of them before the pistol was released to meet the demand of this much anticipated pistol.

Perhaps you are familiar with Larry at Capital City Firearms? This is what he had to say about the matter in a post from another board:

A) HK, Jim Schlatz,in an article in Jan 1996 issue of Machine Gun News, made a long statement saying a lot of things about the mags, but never said they were not manufactured prior to 1994. I have pretty good proof they were manufactured in 1992 - in the article Jim Schlatz stated carefully that none had been released to the civilian market but never said that none had been manufactured prior to Sept 1994.

In August of 1994, Greentop's Sporting goods, had USP 45 mags for sale, 12 rounders, I remember because they wanted $75 which back then was a high price and the pistol was not due out until the fall of 1994 - they indicated HK had sent them as they knew people would want them - don't think the first pistols showed up until Dec of 94 or Jan of 95
Another poster on another board indicated the same thing about his dealer in San Francisco which is what reminded me about Greentop's having them and it was strange at the time they would have them in advance of the pistol being released but reason was obviously, at the time, they would be banned in Sept 1994.

2) a couple of my PD customers have called in to purchase some of the few prebans 45 USP mags we have had over the years (total of about 35 - 40) - before selling them the mags I would give them (not knowing who they were in terms of PD) the whole spiel about the debate or confusion about their status so that they knew the debate before they purchased - two of them got angry and stated - "that's crazy - you don't know who I am, Im Sgt so & so in the blank PD up here in anytown USA - we just placed a big order with HK a few months back and told the rep we wanted some preban 45 mags for ourselves personally, and he sent us 12" - I saved their names and tickets - these aren't the kind of people to forget what they said.

So... we also have a respected name in the HK resale community who states that he personally saw 12 round USP mags for sale before the ban even took effect. For all we know, HK Oberndorf made one huge run of hundreds of thousands of mags at the beginning of production. Are all the 12 round HK mags we see all legitimate prebans? Probably not, but being that there is no way to tell for sure, we (and the government) must assume that any unmarked mag is legit.

And no, I don't think the pro-gun movement needs a large, high profile case about illegal hicap mag importation, but how does Cal's pointing the finger when they can't even be sure there is a legal issue help this at all?

Because the Magazines are most likely Illegal. And they do not want any repercussion's from the ATF or there customer's. I am sure they have weighed there legal options and sought council in this matter. I can't blame Cal's Sporting Armory,for letting the ATF do it's job and decide what is legal, and what is not in this matter.

See above. Also, Cal's isn't simply sitting back and letting the ATF do their job, as you say. They are actively trying to cause trouble for their competition. Even if not a single one of these mags we are talking about can be proven to be illegally imported, the importers, sellers, etc. could still be tied up in legal trouble indefinitely. Its like your neighbor calling the cops on you because they saw you loading your "machine gun" (perfectly legal, postban AR15) into your car for a trip to the range. Even if the gun is perfectly legal, depending on the attitudes of the cops, PD, etc., they may (and have, in the past) confiscate the firearm for "investigation". I'm sure we've all heard the stories of legal trouble that gun owners have had to go through to get their perfectly legal firearms back. I belive Cal's is attempting to use scare tactics on others who are selling these preban mags. Funny how they only seem to be pointing the finger at those who are selling the exact same merchandise as them...

Rocko