The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Don't do business with Cal's Sporting Armory

rocko · August 13, 2002, 02:37 PM

Please see the full text of the law below. I have bolded the interesting/relevant points - especially interesting points are bolded and italicized. As you can see unmarked = legal by definition. It is somewhat silly to suggest that every reseller of these mags (keep in mind, these are the resellers, not importers) check with the ATF to see if their mags are legal - as if it would be possible to tell the difference between two unmarked mag anyway. What, because someone is selling them cheaper, they must be illegal? That's absurb.

If you don't feel comfortable buying these mags, then by all means don't. My point is, in any case, it is not a retailer's place to play ATF watchdog and stool pigeon and I won't support a company that does. I just wanted to give a heads up to everyone else - I figured most shooters who feel these laws are silly and unconstitutional in the first place would agree with me.

And yes, I would be upset if Rich did the same thing. He certainly can lock, deleted, etc., whatever he wants, but I don't feel it is his job to go to the ATF either. If they want to catch any offenders of these silly laws, at least make them do all the footwork. You say "unmarked" as if it were a bad thing, but it is in fact exactly what makes this stuff legal. The mags in question aren't stolen, FWIW, so I don't think your stolen computer analogy quite works. The only mags Robert offers for sale on HKPRO are the USP 9mm and .40 mags. The mags HK USA claims are stolen are the SOCOM mags. Robert does sell them on other boards (does not on HKPRO per request of Tom) as well as the preban USP .45 mags (NOT the SOCOM mags) that HK USA claims do not exist, despite the two prominently displayed USP .45's with 1994 date codes featured in the magazine mentioned. In light of this evidence, along with the fact that the US Gov't is probably HK USA's biggest customer and we didn't exactly have a pro-gun administration at the time, I'd take whatever they say on the matter with a grain of salt.

Rocko

One Hundred Third Congress of the United States of America
AT THE SECOND SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the twenty-fifth day of January, one thousand nine hundred and ninety-four
An Act To control and prevent crime. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994'.

SEC. 110103. BAN OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES.
(a) PROHIBITION- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, as
amended by section 110102(a), is amended by adding at the end the
following new subsection:
`(w)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful
for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition
feeding device.
`(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer
of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully
possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection.
`(3) This subsection shall not apply to--
`(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the
United States or a department or agency of the United States or
a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a
State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement
officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law
enforcement (whether on or off duty);
`(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic
Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining
an on-site physical protection system and security organization
required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or
contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or
off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or
transportation of nuclear materials;
`(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from
service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise
prohibited from receiving ammunition, of a large capacity
ammunition feeding device transferred to the individual by the
agency upon such retirement; or
`(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of any large
capacity ammunition feeding device by a licensed manufacturer
or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or
experimentation authorized by the Secretary.'.
`(4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts
that paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of
paragraph (2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof
to show that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of
a serial number as described in section 923(i) of title 18, United
States Code, shall be a presumption that the large capacity
ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of
possession in paragraph (1).'.
(b) DEFINITION OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE-
Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by
section 110102(b), is amended by adding at the end the following
new paragraph:
`(31) The term `large capacity ammunition feeding device'--
`(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar
device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent
Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a
capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to
accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; but
`(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to
accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire
ammunition.'.
(c) PENALTY- Section 924(a)(1)(B) of title 18, United States
Code, as amended by section 110102(c)(1), is amended by striking
`or (v)' and inserting `(v), or (w)'.
(d) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS FOR LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING
DEVICES- Section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, as amended
by section 110102(d) of this Act, is amended by adding at the end
the following: `A large capacity ammunition feeding device
manufactured after the date of the enactment of this sentence shall
be identified by a serial number that clearly shows that the device
was manufactured or imported after the effective date of this
subsection, and such other identification as the Secretary may by
regulation prescribe.'.

August 13, 2002, 02:37 PM	#11
rocko Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2001 Posts: 229	Please see the full text of the law below. I have bolded the interesting/relevant points - especially interesting points are bolded and italicized. As you can see unmarked = legal by definition. It is somewhat silly to suggest that every reseller of these mags (keep in mind, these are the resellers, not importers) check with the ATF to see if their mags are legal - as if it would be possible to tell the difference between two unmarked mag anyway. What, because someone is selling them cheaper, they must be illegal? That's absurb. If you don't feel comfortable buying these mags, then by all means don't. My point is, in any case, it is not a retailer's place to play ATF watchdog and stool pigeon and I won't support a company that does. I just wanted to give a heads up to everyone else - I figured most shooters who feel these laws are silly and unconstitutional in the first place would agree with me. And yes, I would be upset if Rich did the same thing. He certainly can lock, deleted, etc., whatever he wants, but I don't feel it is his job to go to the ATF either. If they want to catch any offenders of these silly laws, at least make them do all the footwork. You say "unmarked" as if it were a bad thing, but it is in fact exactly what makes this stuff legal. The mags in question aren't stolen, FWIW, so I don't think your stolen computer analogy quite works. The only mags Robert offers for sale on HKPRO are the USP 9mm and .40 mags. The mags HK USA claims are stolen are the SOCOM mags. Robert does sell them on other boards (does not on HKPRO per request of Tom) as well as the preban USP .45 mags (NOT the SOCOM mags) that HK USA claims do not exist, despite the two prominently displayed USP .45's with 1994 date codes featured in the magazine mentioned. In light of this evidence, along with the fact that the US Gov't is probably HK USA's biggest customer and we didn't exactly have a pro-gun administration at the time, I'd take whatever they say on the matter with a grain of salt. Rocko One Hundred Third Congress of the United States of America AT THE SECOND SESSION Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the twenty-fifth day of January, one thousand nine hundred and ninety-four An Act To control and prevent crime. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994'. SEC. 110103. BAN OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES. (a) PROHIBITION- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(a), is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection: `(w)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device. `(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection. `(3) This subsection shall not apply to-- `(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty); `(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials; `(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving ammunition, of a large capacity ammunition feeding device transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or `(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of any large capacity ammunition feeding device by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.'. `(4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts that paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of paragraph (2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof to show that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1).'. (b) DEFINITION OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(b), is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph: `(31) The term `large capacity ammunition feeding device'-- `(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; but `(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.'. (c) PENALTY- Section 924(a)(1)(B) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(c)(1), is amended by striking `or (v)' and inserting `(v), or (w)'. (d) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS FOR LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES- Section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(d) of this Act, is amended by adding at the end the following: `A large capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured after the date of the enactment of this sentence shall be identified by a serial number that clearly shows that the device was manufactured or imported after the effective date of this subsection, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe.'.