[Avalanche]

Well Ground hog... Just to tease: (you’ll need some ice cubes in that shower!) let me describe our newest baby: SuperGun (we had to name the gorgeous thing – couldn’t have it just sitting there on top of the armoire without a name). Picture a DPMS Panther converted to .243 Winchester, with a Tragicon 2.5-to-10x scope. However since the darned thing weighs 17+ pounds, *I* can’t manage it... So we’re buying ME a left-handed AR-15 from StagArms. (YIPPEE!!)

Originally Posted by Groundhog

... He worked on weapons that would kill large numbers of people if ever used. I found that difficult to fathom. I also thought he must not respect himself very much if he was not willing to defend himself.

I find that uncomfortably hypocritical – but there’s an old saying; “kill one and you’re a murderer, kill thousands and you’re a war hero.”

I suppose part of my... hackles being up... is I am still astonished and infuriated by both my sisters: the one who said that she and her husband would ‘take a bullet for their beliefs” – and speaking of her then 6-yr-old son, they’d let HIM take one too, for their beliefs! And the other who said she would, if someone threatened her (then 4-yr-old son) throw herself at him tooth and nail – regardless of any danger to herself; but flat-out and a bit rabidly said she would NEVER learn about guns or self-defense (in order that she could protect him effectively, you know?]!

A community – any community – relies on its members to protect it from outside harm. If some members of that community discard their responsibility, then it does affect the community. I guess, in a way, it’s good that those particular genes don’t survive, if it comes down to it – but I suppose that’s awfully harsh to write too. Have y’all been watching that new series on Discover channel, Planet Earth? They delicately don’t show the blood and gore – they do show the fox trying to scarf up five goslings, but she couldn’t them all into her mouth (she has seven pups to feed)? And the poor polar bear, so hungry he tries to take on an elephant seal – and is badly gored and lies down to die... We humans “pretend” that no longer applies to us -- that we are oh-so-civilized; but it’s just not true! Eat or be eaten.... Be prepared to kill or be prepared to BE killed. Is that not, at the fundamental level, true for every human on earth? Everything above that level is luck.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I don't mean things which fall outside of acceptable norms that a society would allow. If a pacifist believes strongly, that to take a life, or even resist force is the way to go, I could at least respect their convictions. I would hope, that if they thought it through thoroughly, they also would pair up with someone of the same beliefs. Be a bummer to find out your significant other won't resist your attacker when the poo hits. Now, if you know in advance? You can lay down and die peacefully knowing you have lived your convictions. I would be afraid for kids of people like that since they don't have much choice in the matter.

And for kids in the neighborhood, if ‘we’ expect the pacifist to help protect the kids. As a parent, would you dare let your kids play at the pacifist’s house, knowing that if there is a home invasion, the pacifist will allow not just his kids but YOURS to be harmed? Would you let the pacifist babysit your kids in the park?

Originally Posted by Mike

I concur that if one is a serious pacifist, one might have to be prepared to die for that belief.

That wouldn’t be such a problem, if that choice didn’t lead, also, to the death of others (children esp.).

Originally Posted by Mike

I can respect a position with which I do not agree. I am a Navy brat - I grew up in the standard San Diego/Guam/Bethesda environs. I respect people who made a choice the exact opposite to that of my professor. Some of the people that I knew growing up were what I would call "honorable warriors".

I’m not a Navy brat, I’m an ex-Navy officer. I can respect a position with which I don’t agree, so long as it is coherent, and the ramifications match the conviction. The ramifications of choosing pacifism include more destruction and death than NOT choosing pacifism, and so I cannot respect that choice. (Okay, you’re right, I CHOOSE not to respect that choice...)

Originally Posted by Mike

I can respect both pacifists and warriors - I know that makes me a bit of an eccentric.

I can’t respect pacifists, I know that makes me a bit of a hard a$$...

Originally Posted by piste

Those who bring children into this world have a responsibility to ... them ... until that time you also MUST PROTECT them irrespective of what you believe.

AMEN! Concur concur concur!