The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - +P recommended for Colt Detective Special?

Person of Interest · June 27, 2006, 11:19 AM

Doug, I don't know what the operating pressure was for the 38/44 (that's why I typed it as 21,500+ because I don't know how much + there was) but all you have to do is look at the specs to see that it was much more powerful than current loads. The 38/44 was a 158 grain bullet at about 1,140 FPS and this is a stout load. The current 125 +P from Win, Fed and Rem is listed at 950 FPS.

Apparently a lot of folks disagree with me (their option) and a lot of shooters seem genuinely fearful of modern +P (beyond me). I simply do not consider a 125 at 950 as a powerful load. To me this is barely standard pressure. I have shot these factory 125 +Ps in several revolvers and was totally unimpressed by the performance. Cases fell from the guns without needing the ejector and the sides of the cases were sooty indicating a low presure situation meaning the cases were not being sealed in the chambers. As one friend noted if he observed this with his hand loads he would increase the charge as this load is clearly underpowered.

I know some will be horrified by this but I consider the current factory 125 +Ps to be underloaded and underpowered. The limit for the .38 Special is 21,000 or 21,500 PSI and current +Ps are loaded to only 18,500 according to the on-line sources I consulted in the course of my research. Can someone explain to me how ammo loaded 2,500 PSI below industry limits is to be seen as powerful? The +P is higher pressure only when compared to current standard loads which are set at 16,000 PSI. A true +P would be at more than 21,000 PSI, not less. I think the ammo manufacturers have pulled a marketing ploy by telling us that ammo loaded to 2,500 PSI below pressure limit is high performance.

Back in the 1940s standard .38 Special ammo was typically a 158 grain bullet loaded to 950 FPS. I don't know exactly what sort of pressure this load developed but it was certainly more than what's offered today and was likely close to the 21,000 PSI limit established for the caliber. By the 1970s the load was reduced to 870 FPS and by the 1990s it was further reduced to 780 and current specs show 730 FPS. It is obvious that the manufacturers reduced the load level because of the presence of cheap, poorly made guns imported from foreign nations. They felt they had to match the ammo to the weakest gun out there to protect themselves from lawsuits. This means all of us with quality guns are stuck with low performing ammo.

Note that this situation really doesn't exist with the 9MM P or the .357 Magnum. You just don't see hordes of crappy guns in these calibers so the legal threat isn't nearly as bad. But I do believe the loads in .357 Magnum have been reduced slightly in recent years due to the popularity of the medium frame revolvers in this caliber. Many shooters object to a 125 at 1400 FPS from a K frame so current loads are around 1250.

BTW- The operating pressure limit for the .357 is 35,000 PSI. Does it really seem like the .38 Special, chambered in a decent gun from Colt or S&W, needs to be kept at less than half this pressure? Is a Model 15 really less than half as strong as a Model 19? This is what the ammo makers are telling us when they load the .38 to 16,000 PSI.

I have some factory +Ps on hand that I use for plinking. I am still at an absolute loss to understand why people think this ammo is powerful. It simply is not. But as always, I would never tell another man what gun to use or what ammo to carry. If you believe that +P is really powerful and it makes you nervous to shoot it in your gun then don't do it. Just because I realized that factory +P is actually pretty wimpy doesn't mean you should lose your fear of it.

Tube_ee, the 38/44 wasn't close to the .357 back then, but is now.

June 27, 2006, 11:19 AM	#12
Person of Interest Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2005 Posts: 365	Doug, I don't know what the operating pressure was for the 38/44 (that's why I typed it as 21,500+ because I don't know how much + there was) but all you have to do is look at the specs to see that it was much more powerful than current loads. The 38/44 was a 158 grain bullet at about 1,140 FPS and this is a stout load. The current 125 +P from Win, Fed and Rem is listed at 950 FPS. Apparently a lot of folks disagree with me (their option) and a lot of shooters seem genuinely fearful of modern +P (beyond me). I simply do not consider a 125 at 950 as a powerful load. To me this is barely standard pressure. I have shot these factory 125 +Ps in several revolvers and was totally unimpressed by the performance. Cases fell from the guns without needing the ejector and the sides of the cases were sooty indicating a low presure situation meaning the cases were not being sealed in the chambers. As one friend noted if he observed this with his hand loads he would increase the charge as this load is clearly underpowered. I know some will be horrified by this but I consider the current factory 125 +Ps to be underloaded and underpowered. The limit for the .38 Special is 21,000 or 21,500 PSI and current +Ps are loaded to only 18,500 according to the on-line sources I consulted in the course of my research. Can someone explain to me how ammo loaded 2,500 PSI below industry limits is to be seen as powerful? The +P is higher pressure only when compared to current standard loads which are set at 16,000 PSI. A true +P would be at more than 21,000 PSI, not less. I think the ammo manufacturers have pulled a marketing ploy by telling us that ammo loaded to 2,500 PSI below pressure limit is high performance. Back in the 1940s standard .38 Special ammo was typically a 158 grain bullet loaded to 950 FPS. I don't know exactly what sort of pressure this load developed but it was certainly more than what's offered today and was likely close to the 21,000 PSI limit established for the caliber. By the 1970s the load was reduced to 870 FPS and by the 1990s it was further reduced to 780 and current specs show 730 FPS. It is obvious that the manufacturers reduced the load level because of the presence of cheap, poorly made guns imported from foreign nations. They felt they had to match the ammo to the weakest gun out there to protect themselves from lawsuits. This means all of us with quality guns are stuck with low performing ammo. Note that this situation really doesn't exist with the 9MM P or the .357 Magnum. You just don't see hordes of crappy guns in these calibers so the legal threat isn't nearly as bad. But I do believe the loads in .357 Magnum have been reduced slightly in recent years due to the popularity of the medium frame revolvers in this caliber. Many shooters object to a 125 at 1400 FPS from a K frame so current loads are around 1250. BTW- The operating pressure limit for the .357 is 35,000 PSI. Does it really seem like the .38 Special, chambered in a decent gun from Colt or S&W, needs to be kept at less than half this pressure? Is a Model 15 really less than half as strong as a Model 19? This is what the ammo makers are telling us when they load the .38 to 16,000 PSI. I have some factory +Ps on hand that I use for plinking. I am still at an absolute loss to understand why people think this ammo is powerful. It simply is not. But as always, I would never tell another man what gun to use or what ammo to carry. If you believe that +P is really powerful and it makes you nervous to shoot it in your gun then don't do it. Just because I realized that factory +P is actually pretty wimpy doesn't mean you should lose your fear of it. Tube_ee, the 38/44 wasn't close to the .357 back then, but is now.