Has anyone seen this before?

[stagpanther]

First time I've seen this.

My friend left off two rifles of his his and ask me to shoot them and tell him what I think. We are both Weatherby fans and I gladly accepted (and I never charge anything) so I said sure. Like I do with all new or new-to-me rifles, I took a close look inside and out and made sure everything was proper (he's going on a hunt soon). From what I could tell from the throat (easy way to judge how used a weatherby is) the rifle had only been shot a few times, and I removed what little copper and residue there was in the bore.

However, the last 1/8th inch or so of rifling at the muzzle has an odd symmetric pock-marking--and it's in all the grooves but none of the lands.



The first 3 shots tracked well (I gave it 5 minutes between shots to keep the throat and bore cool) but from then on shot impacts spread widely. Upon inspection after shooting there was notable copper and residue build-up in those groove ends at the muzzle.

What does the collective think? I've seen button chatter before; but not like this--it looks almost like a grip/clamp of some sort pressed these in.

[.45 Vet]

I'm no machinist, but looks like bad broaching to me.

[stagpanther]

I've been really shaken by this--it's the second Weatherby (one was new) he's brought to me with what I consider a major issue. Making the situation tougher for me is that my friend buys his stuff through a long-time GS he's used for many years so it ends up in a sort of stand-off between me and the GS whenever I find something that is to me questionable. I know Weatherby itself would readily stand behind its work--but it has to go through the GS my friend bought it from. I have no stake in this other than just advising my friend on what I think.

[Txhillbilly]

If it shoots well for the first 3 shots, I don't see an issue. It's a Hunting rifle, not a Precision Target rifle.
Weatherby would probably say it is within spec if it groups the first 3 shots decently.

[stagpanther]

If it shoots well for the first 3 shots, I don't see an issue. It's a Hunting rifle, not a Precision Target rifle.
Weatherby would probably say it is within spec if it groups the first 3 shots decently.

All of that is true--but if you've paid 10,000 or more dollars to go on an international multi-day guided hunt in the wilderness where they are likely not going to be cleaning the rifles--where does that leave you?

[Txhillbilly]

Have you tried shooting the rifle over several days to see if it still opens up the groupings?
Try shooting 3 shots each day and see how it does.

Does the spot near the muzzle copper foul worse than the rest of the bore? If so, your friend could always have the end of the barrel cut off and re-crowned. That would be the simplest fix, IMO.

[stagpanther]

If so, your friend could always have the end of the barrel cut off and re-crowned. That would be the simplest fix, IMO.

That's what I was going to recommend. The 3 shots work fine--I'm getting right around MOA at 300 yards (that's what he zeros at) with 180 gr Norma SP spitzers so of course that more than meets the Weatherby guarantee. It's a carbon fiber stock SS fluted barrel Mk 5--I personally wouldn't accept one in that condition in that price category--but that's up to my friend. I'm not going to push it, just let him know what the potential issues might be in case he's going to the trouble and expense of hauling to Africa, New Zealand etc.

[Shadow9mm]

That's odd, I would not be happy with that. Have you contacted Weatherby and asked?

[JohnKSa]

I know Weatherby itself would readily stand behind its work--but it has to go through the GS my friend bought it from.

No it doesn't. In fact, most gun stores would prefer that you dealt with warranty issues by contacting the manufacturer directly.

[stagpanther]

No it doesn't. In fact, most gun stores would prefer that you dealt with warranty issues by contacting the manufacturer directly.

That's true--but Weatherby has subbed to an independent select professional gunsmith service to do factory-level inspection/warranty work--or at least did as of a year or two ago last time I found a potential issue with a new rifle purchase.

[stagpanther]

That's odd, I would not be happy with that. Have you contacted Weatherby and asked?

The rifles are traveling internationally by air--the advance paperwork has already been completed and it's not a simple thing to replace the rifle at this point though a back-up will be available just in case. I think I will simply advise my friend to get a cleaning kit and cleaning after 4 or 5 shots out in the field. The irregularities may smooth over in time, i don't know, which is why I asked.

In the meantime, here's one of the other rifles I'm shooting for the weekend--I've shot it before and it's an old beater southpaw MK 5 also in 300 WbyMag that my friend bought well-used. Although well-worn in appearance--it's a spectacular shooter and I've shot groups well under MOA at 200 yards with it, one of the most accurate and consistent Weatherbys I've ever shot. Near as I can tell the sporter barrel must have been made by another high-quality manufacturer. The only drawback to it is the buttpad is old rubber and is quite hard so the felt recoil is more pronounced than it is on newer model rifles.

[Shadow9mm]

So I got bored and reached out to Weatherby and sent a link to the thread. This was their response.

"It is difficult to say what exactly is going on without knowing much more about the rifle itself. Without a serial number, we are unable to tell the age, barrel contour, or barrel type. Additionally with it being a pre-owned rifle, its difficult to say that the rifle may have been exposed to, or what aftermarket work has been performed such as threading or recrowning. We would really need more context in order to make a better determination. In regard to the accuracy, it sounds like it is performing well within our specifications and guarantee, but increased heat and fouling is changing its performance. Barrel contour, ammunition type, and rifle conditions all play a part in that. We always recommend that customers reach out to us directly with any concerns they have. From there we can acquire all the necessary information and work to find the best solutions."

[stagpanther]

Ummm, thanks Shadow. The rifles are packed and on their way to a hunt, I've already discussed the issue with my friend and he agreed he's going to shoot it as is, I think he'll be fine since he will tag out with one harvested animal so I don't think he'll need but a couple of shots at most. I'm pretty confident he will hit within MOA whatever he aims at out to 300 yards; and as I said before that exceeds Weatherby's guarantee. It's not my rifle, so it's up to my friend to decide if he wants to do anything with it after the hunt. As the Weatherby rep says it's hard to know what actually happened to the rifle in its history, and the observation that it might have been recrowned at some point makes sense to me, I had that thought as well, and I'll ask about that. I need to amend that the rifle was in like-new condition as far as I could tell from the bore but my friend told me it is an older back-up rifle that was simply never used.

[Jim Watson]

Looks like mechanical indents. Does he use a boresighter that expands a collet into the muzzle?

[stagpanther]

My friend doesn't do anything with his rifles other than take them on a hunt; he leaves maintenance to others. He uses a shop to do that, but in a pinch asks me sometimes to backstop which I'm happy to do--especially since I love Weatherbys in general and I get to shoot some really neat stuff that I otherwise couldn't afford myself. I generally clean the bore and adjust for whatever zero he asks me to do and then verify that it will hit within MOA the POA with 3 shots at the zero distance. He often takes members of his extended family and friends--in this day and age of kids tuning out to computers and cell phones I'm happy to do whatever I can to help him carry on a tradition.

[Nathan]

FWIW….what does open up mean? What does the group look like for 10-20 shots?

I ask this because usually means 2.5” at 100 yds for 20 shots. Sounds awful on the internet. Well, if 20 shots go into 2.5”, you should expect to make hits to 400yds on game. Most guided hunts seem to target 100-200yd shots from what I’ve heard.

BTW, I’d bet if I shot a box through most of the 1” guaranteed rifles that we would see 2-3” is the norm and not bad. I’ll bet if we shot 20 rounds at 100 yds, by the owner, that we would see most internet sub 0.5 moa rifles are over 1 moa at 100yds. A real 0.5 moa rifle is rare.

As for the pictures, they look like other factory bores I’ve seen. Not sure if it is a byproduct of the ream or the button pulling, but most can be made to shoot….some amazing 1 shot groups and others shoot well to 5-7 shots.

[bamaranger]

I've not got a lot of experience with a borescope, but a pal has one so I've seen a bit. Yeah, that image is odd. It does indeed look very symmetrical, as if some sort of jaws or clamp attached. I can't imagine a process at the factory that would involve clamping once the barrel is rifled.

Does Weatherby cut or hammer forge their barrels?

[Nathan]

Does Weatherby cut or hammer forge their barrels?

I’d be willing to bet that cut is off the table. They are likely too small for the hammer forged start up cost…..my best guess would be button rifling.

There is button rifling and then there is button rifling….it is often dictated by pull speed. Most factory bores are pulled fast at a high level of interference vs slow and smaller finer increments.

[Shadow9mm]

Im clear, more than anything i was curious to see how their customer service responded. A MK 5 has been on my bucket list for a long time.

Based on the response it appears they did take time to look at the thread, which in my limited experience most companies wont do. They also provided some good information into their thought process and how they would look at or into an issue.

[stagpanther]

FWIW….what does open up mean? What does the group look like for 10-20 shots?

I ask this because usually means 2.5” at 100 yds for 20 shots. Sounds awful on the internet. Well, if 20 shots go into 2.5”, you should expect to make hits to 400yds on game. Most guided hunts seem to target 100-200yd shots from what I’ve heard.

BTW, I’d bet if I shot a box through most of the 1” guaranteed rifles that we would see 2-3” is the norm and not bad. I’ll bet if we shot 20 rounds at 100 yds, by the owner, that we would see most internet sub 0.5 moa rifles are over 1 moa at 100yds. A real 0.5 moa rifle is rare.

As for the pictures, they look like other factory bores I’ve seen. Not sure if it is a byproduct of the ream or the button pulling, but most can be made to shoot….some amazing 1 shot groups and others shoot well to 5-7 shots.

It's a hunting rifle--so IMO accuracy relative to the POA is more important than consistency.

[georgehwbush]

"accuracy relative to the POA is more important than consistency" how can you have accuracy without consistency ?

if it's a random bullet within a 6 moa group of 50 rounds that only 2 actually touch the poi, that is not accurate. although if you fired that first round and it was the one in the middle, you might think it accurate, but it would be far from it. IMO

[Jack Ryan]

Take the brushes out of a bore snake and put some semi chrome on it. Run that through the bore a couple dozen times and then look at it/ try it.