Who sells .38 Special +P+ in 158gr (and is it safe for my guns?)

[Doug.38PR]

I was looking back through Ed Lovette's _The Snubbie_ booklet today and read through his suggestions on defensive ammo. His highly suggested round was the 158 gr .38+P LSWCHP round. This is the round I typically carry in either of my pre or post war Colt Official Police guns. I'm told it is perfectly safe to use these rounds for defense and even at the range for practice(minus a steady diet on the pre war gun)
However, I noticed a picture of some various types of ammo boxes that he recommends. One of those was Corbon 38+P+ 158gr LSWCHP 1000ftps (he recommends this for use in a snub nose revolver )
I remember reading an article (the link to it has moved) that gives the figures for the old .38/44 round and it was exactly 158gr 1000ftps (essentially the same as the +P+ round mentioned above) I have also heard it said from various people around these forums that the pre war depression era Official Police was rated for the old .38/44 round.
HOWEVER, I also remember it said, I think by Dfariswheel, that +P+ rounds would blow up a OP or other Colt non magnum guns.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I've heard it said by some on these forums that they have shot +P+ out of Detective Specials and (I think) even Agents (if I recall right,the person who said this was even doing this as a LEO at an official practice session) without any problems. And here we have Lovette suggesting using this round in a J or D frame gun

NOW, understand I am in no way suggesting that I take two boxes of 50 of +P+ down to the range every week and put them through my Postwar DS, PreWar OP or even Postwar OP. I love these old guns and want them to last. BUT I would like to know the maximum potential that can safely be used in each of these guns.
Is the 158gr +P+ at 1000 ftps safe to use in a PreWar OP, PostWar OP and even a Postwar DS?
IF IT IS SAFE, then WHO SELLS +P+ with this type of bullet anymore? Corbon doesn't seem to.

[skeeter1]

For what it's worth, I wouldn't use a .38 Spl +P+ in any .38 revolver. That's just asking for trouble. Just buy a .357 Magnum if that's what you're after. The .38 Spl +P is plenty potent enough.

[timothy75]

+1 I wouldnt risk it on such nice guns. Your perfecly justified to get a new carry gun.

[gb_in_ga]

Just curious -- you say that the cited 158 gr LSWC-HP +P+ load was supposed to be getting 1000 fps, right? I wonder what barrel length they were testing that with?

Why I ask that is that I'm looking at my handy-dandy all manufacturers .38 Spl reloading manual, and note the following .38 Spl +P load from Speer, using their 158 gr LSWC-HP:

6.0 gr Power Pistol, 1037 fps from a S&W Model 14, 6" barrel

Looks to me like it is possible to load your own and get the performance you are looking for, and still stay within "normal" +P pressures.

And, as always --> Caveat Emptor <-- let the buyer beware, use such loading information at your own risk.

[Puppy]

The recoil when using +p, +p+ or even .357's in my snubbies makes follow up shots alot slower so I opt for the std pressure loads.

I figure the more lead I get on target quicker, the better the outcome will be (for me & my family at least).

[TacticalDefense1911]

Remington
Winchester
Corbon
Buffalo Bore

...to name a few...

.38 Special +P+ loads (most loads are just labeled +P anymore) are still a far cry from .357 Magnum loads, so you will still have less recoil from a .38 +P+ load than you would from a good .357 mag load. I use Corbon 125 grain +P loads and they are capable of 1150 fps out of a 2.5" barrel...Remingtons 125 grain .357 mag load out of a 4" barrel can reach 1450 fps. Factor in the barrel length difference and you are still talking about 200 fps difference.

From what I have read, many "old timers" say that the .38 special loads were much hotter 20 to 30 years ago than they are today, that standard pressure loads then are similar to +P and +P+ loads of today. I don't know for sure, just thought that I would throw that out there and see if anyone really knows the answer.

Personally, I wouldn't use standard pressure loads unless you absolutely have to. The energy produced by a standard pressure load out of a snubbie is going to be below 200 ft lbs and in a lot of cases it is much lower than 200 ft lbs. These types of loads have just not had the success that higher energy loads have, but once again accuracy is what is most important and if you aren't comfortable with +P loads then don't use them.

[ColtMember]

The Corbon +P+s were one of my favorite loads when they were available. My local dealer actually still has them in stock. I would shoot them in my 640-1. Recoil felt a tad less than the Win White Box .357 110s. I believe Buffalo Bore currently makes something similar.

I would not hesitate to put them through a K-frame .38 in limited amounts. I would opt for a .357 if practicing much with this round. Don't think I would put them in an older model 36 (maybe for carry, but not consistent practice), but would consider them in a newer production .38 J-frame.

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with Colts, yet.

[Jim Watson]

Bear in mind that there is no SAAMI standard for +P+ ammunition. It is loaded to whatever pressure the maker thinks the guns will stand and not get him sued. The reason Coltmember's old stock Corbon recoils "a tad less" than .357 magnum is because it was loaded to only a tad less pressure than .357 magnum. About 94% of magnum pressure according to a magazine expose' article. They backed off to SAAMI specs after that was revealed.

Chick Gaylord and Elmer Keith overloaded the OP and Triple Lock. They were in production at the time and could be repaired or replaced if they beat them up. Yours can't.

[Doug.38PR]

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl

HOLY COW!!! I looked for +P+ at Buffalo Bore and didn't find any. BUT this is just +P and it says 158gr LSWCHP 1000ftps from a 2 inch barrel. Equal or even stronger than what I am looking for in +P+ or in the old .38/44. THe +P 158 gr Remington and Winchester round gets 890ftps from a 4 inch. THe above is measured from a 2 inch!!!!

Is this round safe for my guns? As it is a +P measured round.

[Jim Watson]

If BB is really, truly keeping that ammo to SAAMI .38 Special +P pressure, it is not going to split the cylinder of your OP. But it is still lauching a bullet at unusually high velocity by some trick of powder selection and/or loading technique. That means there is more than usual recoil and more than usual hot gas flowing out the cylinder gap. It will increase the wear and tear on your out-of-production revolver. Shoot six to feel the kick and check the zero and then load the gun for life-or-death self defense shootout would be about my maximum throughput.

[Doug.38PR]

Shoot six to feel the kick and check the zero and then load the gun for life-or-death self defense shootout would be about my maximum throughput.

my thoughts exactly. thank you

[Person of Interest]

The original load for the .38/44 (sometimes called "Hi-Speed") was a 158 grain lead bullet at 1140 FPS. This is much hotter than any current factrory load in .38 Special. Reloading manuals from the 1950s and early 1960s list loads that duplicate the performance of the .38/44. These listings disappeared about the same time that people started suing ammo makers when their Star or Ruby revolvers blew up.

A 1938 S&W advertisement states that the .38/44 ammo may be safely fired in the K frame Military & Police revolver. A 1940 ad from Colt says that this ammo can be safely used in a steel-framed Detective Special. Note that these are pre-war guns. Many people use pre- and post-war to determine when +P is safe but both Colt and S&W had no issues with what was effectively +P+ in pre-war revolvers.

Over on the S&W Forum one member described firing 2,000 rounds of factory .38/44s through a Model 10 between 1959 and 1961. To me, that ends the +P question as the .38/44 is much stouter and he said he had no trouble at all with the gun handling the pressure.

The Official Police is a very sturdy revolver, being esentially the same as the .357 magnum Python in size and durability. I wouldn't give two seconds of concern to using any factory loaded .38 Special ammo in one of these guns.

But that's just what I feel. Some people fear they will wear or damage their guns by using them as they were intended. To each his own.

[Love&Hate12]

doug - I reccomended you checking out Buffalo Bore in the past.

With my .38 I load the Buffalo Bore 125 grain at 1050 fps, which is 50 fps slower than the Corbon +p+ round out of a 2 inch. It also uses the Gold-Dot round which will get adequate penetration at those velocities, the Corbon with it's higher pressures uses the Sierra.

I never ordered those 158 grain from Buffalo Bore because I was afraid that it is just too much, and I use a modern titanium lightweight that can withstand strong +p, it's the same frame as they have on the .357's I believe.

Anyway, the 158 grain at those velocities is going to have too much recoil.

The 125 grain is almost as good as 9mm +p, the Remington lswchp+p is too slow out of a 2 inch in my opinion.

[Doug.38PR]

Person of Interest

A 1938 S&W advertisement states that the .38/44 ammo may be safely fired in the K frame Military & Police revolver. A 1940 ad from Colt says that this ammo can be safely used in a steel-framed Detective Special. Note that these are pre-war guns. Many people use pre- and post-war to determine when +P is safe but both Colt and S&W had no issues with what was effectively +P+ in pre-war revolvers.

Do you have that article or advertisement scanned into your computer? Could you post it? or could you find a link to support it.
I'm not doubting you, but I would just like to read it for myself so as it is not a "I heard so and so say on the internet that you could...." well you get the idea. I don't want to go off rumor when someone asks "Who the h--l told you you could put that through your gun!!!"

The Official Police is a very sturdy revolver, being esentially the same as the .357 magnum Python in size and durability. I wouldn't give two seconds of concern to using any factory loaded .38 Special ammo in one of these guns.

This is where I am not sure. I was told just this buy a gunsith at PHH. HOWEVER, DFariswheel said once that while the OP is the same frame as the Python it is absolutly not as durable as the Python as far as what kind of pressures it will take. The difference being that the Python and other magnum guns are treated with stronger heat resistant alloys and such. The OP I'm told is indeed a large sturdy gun, but you do not want to try to turn it into a magnum.




Love Hate

doug - I reccomended you checking out Buffalo Bore in the past.

With my .38 I load the Buffalo Bore 125 grain at 1050 fps, which is 50 fps slower than the Corbon +p+ round out of a 2 inch. It also uses the Gold-Dot round which will get adequate penetration at those velocities, the Corbon with it's higher pressures uses the Sierra.

I never ordered those 158 grain from Buffalo Bore because I was afraid that it is just too much, and I use a modern titanium lightweight that can withstand strong +p, it's the same frame as they have on the .357's I believe.

Anyway, the 158 grain at those velocities is going to have too much recoil.

The 125 grain is almost as good as 9mm +p, the Remington lswchp+p is too slow out of a 2 inch in my opinion.

Buffalo Bore always kinda scared me from all the rumors I've heard around local gun shops "Someone dumped Buffalo Bore down his revolver and blew his hand off"

I wouldn't use +P of any kind in my DS unless absolutely needed the extra punch. Too much recoil. For defense in my DS I typically stick with standard .38 Hydrashoks.

[Love&Hate12]

Doug - Do you use auto's as well as revolvers?

[Doug.38PR]

Not nearly as much, but I do use them about 25% of the time.

[Person of Interest]

Doug, I have a scan of the Colt ad and will post it here. I did not see the 1938 S&W ad myself, but spoke to an advanced S&W collector who told me of it and I do not doubt what he said for an instant.

I am not so sure about the Python receiving any tempering different than that of the OP, but in any case I am not making a magnum out of a .38, I am simply saying that the full potential of the .38 Special is more than what current factory loadings offer. My top load for a 125 grain .38 Special clocks 1150 FPS while my favorite .357 magnum load goes around 1600. A factory .357 these days will be hard pressed to break 1300 and that is way wimpy compared to what it was originally intended to do. The ammo makers have been quietly reducing their laods for years. Many people a packing pistols that are nowhere near as powerful as they think they are.

The 1940 Colt ad

[Doug.38PR]

Person of Interest

that almost looks like the back addendum of Jerry Kuhnhousen's book, but it isn't as I tried to find exactly this info (.38/44 rated round) in it. Man and that is indeed a PreWar DS.

Funny, I called colt a few months back and ask their service rep personally if just .38+P was safe to shoot in a pre war Official Police (I was specifically asking about Corbon +P) they said "no. Not even regular +P is safe in that gun" they did however say it is safe to shoot in a Police Positive (post war I think) but it would cause extra wear.

My guess is that Colt is now erring on the side of caution as Pre war guns are so old, there is no telling what some joker put through them between the depression era and now, could be all kinds of things wrong with it that it may indeed not be safe unless checked by a competent gunsmith.

I'm gonna hang on to that ad.

BTW, did you get that out of a book or is that from an actual old article? If the former what is it called, I'd like to read more of what it has to say about these old guns.

Thank you for posting the ad

[KC135]

158gr CB +P+ average 5 rounds from my S&W 66 was 1054fps.

[Person of Interest]

And you lose just a little shooting .38s from a .357 chamber. A 158 at 1040 is stout for factory, these days.

That ad was reproduced in a book on Colt revolvers published in the late 1950s. I found it in a library and scanned the page.

All the gun makers err on the side their lawyers tell them to. S&W says guns with model markings (1957 and up) are OK but I think they just picked that measure for convenience. I don't know what Colt tells people these days but IMO an Official Police would laugh at +P pressures. I myself have no hesitation in using factory +P in a steel frame Colt or S&W made in the 1930s or later.

[aspen1964]

according to a 1954 Colt catalog I had...all the revolvers made were listed as being able to shoot all factory-loaded 38 specials(38/44, hi-speed, manstopper)..these loads often exceeded 1000 fps with 150-158 gr bullets..
as far as longeivity, I don't know...as of yet I haven't tried these old factory hi-speed loads in a Colt OP(remember I am still looking for one to replace the one I sold)..I intend to when I find one..but it is up to the individual to decide on what he deems as safe and proper...

[Jeff #111]

My dad is a retired Idaho State Trooper (1973-1994). In 1978 ISP switched from the Highway Patrolman/Model 28 to the S&W Model 65. The troopers carried Winchester 110 grain JHP +P+ rounds in their 65's.

I suppose it had to do with the politics of the time. The ISP administration could say in all honesty that the officers weren't carrying that horrid .357 MAGNUM round in their revolvers.Apparantly it became a big deal in the seventies.I guess that the magnum loads were considered to be inhumane.

Anyway dad carried a Model 36 (mfd. 1970) as his backup. In the late seventies and early eighties the sergeant in charge of firearm training in his district office didn't like BUG's. For some unknown reason they made him uncomfortable. Back then the district offices had alot more leeway when it came to firearms so this sergeant said that the troopers had to qualify with their BUG's using the same service loads as the men carried in their 65's. Do you see the problem with this?

Amazingly my dad actually qualified with his Model 36 using the +P+ rounds and he did so over a couple of years!Dad says that it was a real experience shooting that that little J-frame with those loads. But eventually the law of averages caught up and his 36 had to go into the gunsmith for a complete overhaul.

The gunsmith was an old timer who had been working on wheelguns for over fifty years (early eighties) and was friends with Elmer Keith. This was in Eastern Idaho and Keith lived in Eastern Idaho (Salmon). He gave my dad a real lecture until dad explained to him the situation. The old timer shook his head, fixed the little Chiefs Special and told dad to ask for reimbursment from the state. Pops did this and the state paid for the work. The sergeant in charge of firearms in his district office also changed his policy about ammo.

So the moral of this story? Well the 36 handled the loads for awhile. And I don't believe anybody would argue that the J-frame was intended for such hot loads - even on an inconsistent basis. So that's my advice. You have to decide I suppose.

Dad still owns his Model 36 and it still works like a Swiss watch. It's never needed any work done to it since 1981. But he's also never fired +P+ rounds in it since 1981. And it isn't because he dosen't have any +P+ rounds anymore. When he retired he also retired many +P+ rounds - which I am shooting to this day.

[pturner67]

a guy at Blue Ridge Arsenal says +P is a moot point if shooting from a 4" or less barrel...he said you need a 5"+ barrel for the pressure to be able to build up enough

I don't personally know...but thought I would post his advice

[Doug.38PR]

Just got me a box of Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP .38+P 1000 ftps. I carry two speedloaders full of them in my pocket in case I need the extra power where my Remington 158 LSWCHP +Ps at 888ftps won't cut it. Later I might jsut go ahead and load the Buffalo Bore full pressure but I'd rather get used to them at the range first. Haven't even fired them yet

[aminyard]

IMHO, unless an OP is the only firearm that you own and you cannot buy another gun, it should not be used for PD, and should only be fired with .38spl target loads. Why risk a fine old piece with hot ammo when you cold get a 40 S&W or a 357? There comes a time when honorable retirement is prudent, and I believe the original OP have reached that point.